Author Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers  (Read 336056 times)

vedrana

  • Guest
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #420 on: Jul 28, 2009, 05:33 AM »
It's true, that happens when we live an experience that changes us. Jack and Ennis not only lived remembering that first time they knew in brokeback, but also recalling or trying to reenact that passion on their everyday life without each other, failing miserably. I believe Jack would have gone in November, no doubt, seeing how he embraced Ennis after he said "I wish" knowing after all that no matter the number of rejections from Ennis part, that phrase "I can't stand this anymore jack" demonstrates Ennis own suffering and struggles. It's because of you Jack that I'm like this... In love... and incapable of letting my heart open to anyone in the world but you.  :\'(

That's true - they probably tried everyday to renew the special feeling they once had on Brokeback ... but without each other it was a hitting the head against the wall.  :-\\

I loved your last words - "incapable of letting my heart open to anyone in the worlds but you" ...

If I may add - ... and the strings in me and the society won't let me do that, open myself to you completely, open myself to the sweetest life with you and that's the only thing that I truly want! :\'( Poor Ennis!  :ghug:

vedrana

  • Guest
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #421 on: Jul 28, 2009, 05:37 AM »
I think Jack is, as you said, experienced when it comes to the several occurances of this rude awakening of his dream turned into a nightmare. As it is said in the short story, after Jack proposed the cow and calf operation in Motel Siesta, "you owe me at least a weekend after shooting me down in flames." I am paraphrasing a bit since I don't have the short story with me at the moment. Even in the movie, without the words, Jack was heartbroken by the river, not only for the dream that was shattered by Ennis' refusal, but also for the pain that he felt, looking at Ennis as he retold the trauma of his nine-year-old self witnessing a hate crime.

I think Jack is almost complacent, accustomed to being rejected by the time of the final confrontation. He felt angry at the short leash and was yanking at it. To his surprise, Ennis felt apart. We never heard nothing more after "It's because of you that I am like this." But I can just imagine Jack saying the same thing, and that silently, in his heart, he probably said to himself, while hugging the collapsed Ennis, that, "Ain't that the truth. It is because of YOU that I am like this." "Dame you, Ennis."

As it was said, in the short story, nothing changed, nothing settled. Let be. Let be.

The two lived on the surreal memories of that summer on Brokeback Mountain; they made each other that way.

Jack could never quit Ennis; Ennis loved no other but Jack.

Whether they knew it or admit it or not, they are stuck with each other.

 :\'( :\'( :\'(

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #422 on: Jul 28, 2009, 07:22 AM »
Hmm... :s) Thomas, you are dragging what I wrote about the Buddhist concept of illusions in the "so many lies..." thread into this discussion.

I don't think the idea applies in this case, because, if you recall, from the short story, at the end of the final confrontation, nothing was settled, and nothing changed. Jack simply let be. It's not satori, and certainly not awakening to enlightening realization that all pleasure and pain, all passion and hatred, are but illusions that fade with the years like leaves and flowers with the seasons.

I think your idea of Jack achieving satori is a bit far fetched. Just my two cents worth.

If anything, Jack was in pain as he watched Ennis driving off, not unlike the end of the summer, as he drove off, watching Ennis diminishing in the rear view mirror.

He was gone for four years after that summer. He was gone forever after that final confrontation.

Yes, I couldn't help bringing a bit of it in this context.  ;)

I think that for me, the element of satori in the Last Confrontation is more obvious is the ss:  "Let be, let be."   One may or may not read this in Jack's final look at the departing Ennis in the movie, but whether or not we see it there, the ss does point to a final realization on Jack's part that things are meant to be.  Rather than fighting it, the final realization implicitly brings a measure of peace and consolation that is at the very heart of Jack's valedictory in the ss.


Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #423 on: Jul 28, 2009, 09:37 AM »
Yes, I couldn't help bringing a bit of it in this context.  ;)

I think that for me, the element of satori in the Last Confrontation is more obvious is the ss:  "Let be, let be."   One may or may not read this in Jack's final look at the departing Ennis in the movie, but whether or not we see it there, the ss does point to a final realization on Jack's part that things are meant to be.  Rather than fighting it, the final realization implicitly brings a measure of peace and consolation that is at the very heart of Jack's valedictory in the ss.

I guess I took the narrower Buddhist definition of satori, but I see wikipedia has a less narrow definition akin to epiphany, where satori does not necessarily lead to enlightenment, or nirvana, but simply awareness or understanding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
Quote
Satori (悟り?) (Chinese: 悟; pinyin: wł; Korean 오) is a Japanese Buddhist term for "enlightenment." The word literally means "understanding." "Satori" translates as a flash of sudden awareness, or individual enlightenment, and while satori is from the Zen Buddhist tradition, enlightenment can be simultaneously considered "the first step" or embarkation toward nirvana.

Satori is typically juxtaposed with a related term known as kensho, which translates as "seeing one's nature." Kensho experiences tend to be briefer glimpses, while satori is considered to be a deeper spiritual experience. Satori is as well an intuitive experience and has been described as being similar to awakening one day with an additional pair of arms, and only later learning how to use them.

I thought "Let be, let be." was Jack's philosophy with Ennis from the beginning, even at the dozy embrace, when Jack realized Ennis' homophobia keeps him from hugging face-to-face. Instead of confronting this, Jack let be, and accepted Ennis, fears and all.

Is there peace and consolation on Jack's face at the end of the final confrontation as Ennis drove off?

 :s) I guess you must see something that I don't.

However you dice it, the final confrontation was Ang Lee's master piece, to give more weight to the red letter post card in the scene after the diner.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #424 on: Jul 29, 2009, 06:31 AM »
I guess I took the narrower Buddhist definition of satori, but I see wikipedia has a less narrow definition akin to epiphany, where satori does not necessarily lead to enlightenment, or nirvana, but simply awareness or understanding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
I thought "Let be, let be." was Jack's philosophy with Ennis from the beginning, even at the dozy embrace, when Jack realized Ennis' homophobia keeps him from hugging face-to-face. Instead of confronting this, Jack let be, and accepted Ennis, fears and all.

Is there peace and consolation on Jack's face at the end of the final confrontation as Ennis drove off?

 :s) I guess you must see something that I don't.

However you dice it, the final confrontation was Ang Lee's master piece, to give more weight to the red letter post card in the scene after the diner.

Satori is best translated as "realization", although in many schools, it is the mark leading to enlightenment or Buddhahood.

I personally wouldn't call it peace and consolation.  As I mentioned in one of the older threads, it has an element of resignation.  It is a sort of coming to terms with reality, and the potential to move on.

Yes, the Last Confrontation (together with the DE) is -- to me -- his masterpiece.

 

Offline jedibarrister

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 56
  • Gender: Female
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #425 on: Jul 31, 2009, 08:44 PM »
I sometimes think that he would not show to make a statement to Ennis.  I think some of us have discussed it somewhere that perhaps he meant to test or even prod Ennis -- by removing himself, perhaps Jack was trying to push Ennis into some form of action.



For me, juxtaposing the memory of the "perfect moment of artless, charmed happiness", and the look of absolute faithful love in Jack's eyes over the face of the older embittered and deeply unhappy Jack's eyes was done for a purpose.  You're supposed to see all the pain and resentment in Jack's soul over Ennis "leash" and his refusal to be happy.  I've read "Something New"....and I agree with that author.  Jack either would've stopped the trips at one point to stop his pain or to make a point. 

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #426 on: Aug 02, 2009, 05:41 PM »
For me, juxtaposing the memory of the "perfect moment of artless, charmed happiness", and the look of absolute faithful love in Jack's eyes over the face of the older embittered and deeply unhappy Jack's eyes was done for a purpose.  You're supposed to see all the pain and resentment in Jack's soul over Ennis "leash" and his refusal to be happy.  I've read "Something New"....and I agree with that author.  Jack either would've stopped the trips at one point to stop his pain or to make a point. 

That's an interesting point. I am not sure I agree with "something new".

It's difficult for me to see Jack stopping his trips with Ennis, as infrequent as they were. I can see him going to the cabin with Randall, heading off to Mexico, and finding other ways to get his fix for those magical moments of charmed happiness. However, there is something with Ennis that no one else can provide. Ennis, of all the men in Jack's life, from his rodeo riding in the past, to those men in dark alleys, is unique in his singular devotion, unwavering love, and almost obsessive response to Jack...this thing with no reins.

For someone like Jack, who is jaded enough with the freckle faithless transient nature of male sex, the unique devotion of Ennis is a prize like no others, a great gem of beauty that he would do anything to possess, a treasure of countless value that he would gladly trade the wealth of the Newsomes for that sweet dream of working a cow and calf operation together.

What tortures Jack, more than anything else, is this knowledge, looking back those years, from that perfect moment of charmed happiness to that painful moment of "nothing settled, nothing changed", that the sweet life is forever out of grasp, that he will always be looking at Ennis as he rides off or drives off, without him.

The irony of Ennis' singular devotion to him and the impossible sweet dream is what is seen on his face, bitter and brokenhearted.

He can't quit Ennis because what Ennis offers is exactly what he craves.
He can't stand not having the sweet life, missing Ennis so much in all 'em months away.

All he can do, is to find escape in his whiskey, and comfort in another man's arms, temporarily.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #427 on: Aug 04, 2009, 08:42 AM »
For me, juxtaposing the memory of the "perfect moment of artless, charmed happiness", and the look of absolute faithful love in Jack's eyes over the face of the older embittered and deeply unhappy Jack's eyes was done for a purpose.  You're supposed to see all the pain and resentment in Jack's soul over Ennis "leash" and his refusal to be happy.  I've read "Something New"....and I agree with that author.  Jack either would've stopped the trips at one point to stop his pain or to make a point. 

Certainly, it was done on purpose.  And yes, together with resignation, there is also a finality and even pain in the look of the older Jack.  It's so hard to look at this and contrast it with the beautiful look at the DE. 

But do you think that there is a look of resolve in the older Jack's final glance?  Personaally, I can't seem to be quite sure...


Offline jedibarrister

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 56
  • Gender: Female
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #428 on: Aug 05, 2009, 03:01 PM »
Quote
It's difficult for me to see Jack stopping his trips with Ennis, as infrequent as they were.

and

Quote
For someone like Jack, who is jaded enough with the freckle faithless transient nature of male sex, the unique devotion of Ennis is a prize like no others,

and

Quote
But do you think that there is a look of resolve in the older Jack's final glance?  Personaally, I can't seem to be quite sure...

We know that Jack had told his parents that Randall and he were coming up to Lighting Flat.  So it seems that Jack wants faithful companionship.  He wants to settle down...he doesn't want to prize Ennis' devotion like some harem-master.  So I don't ever see Jack as a "faithless transient" whore (which I may be incorrectly inferring from your statement).  He's not sleeping with anything that moves.  He needs something that Ennis wouldn't give him.  So he slept around some to fulfill a need that not even Lureen was filling anymore.  He wanted Ennis and was going to settle for Randall in the end.  And if he really did move to LF with Randall, and he started the less-than-sweet-life with Randall, I don't think he'd be making those trips to Ennis.  He'd be in a committed relationship.  It's one thing for a gay man to be in a love-less marriage and cheat on his wife.  It's another (IMO) to be in a committed gay relationship and cheat on his partner.  But I'm not an expert on the gay lifestyle but the folks I do know are in deeply committed relationships.

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #429 on: Aug 05, 2009, 03:14 PM »
Quote from lancecowboy
It's difficult for me to see Jack stopping his trips with Ennis, as infrequent as they were.

and

Quote from lancecowboy
For someone like Jack, who is jaded enough with the freckle faithless transient nature of male sex, the unique devotion of Ennis is a prize like no others,

and

Quote from tpe
But do you think that there is a look of resolve in the older Jack's final glance?  Personaally, I can't seem to be quite sure...

We know that Jack had told his parents that Randall and he were coming up to Lighting Flat.  So it seems that Jack wants faithful companionship.  He wants to settle down...he doesn't want to prize Ennis' devotion like some harem-master.  So I don't ever see Jack as a "faithless transient" whore (which I may be incorrectly inferring from your statement). 

I didn't imply Jack was the faithless transient whore. His relationship with Ennis, and his desire for the sweet life is proof that he was not transient. My implication was the Mexican encounters with prostitutes in dark alleys, his riding more than bulls in the rodeo circuits. Even Randall, I doubt that would amount to much. He might have told the old man when the stud duck needled him, asking where is this Ennis that you kept talking, knowing full well that Jack didn't bring anyone. The old man has a sore spot in Jack's psyche, and we need to take that into account in the dialog. In any case, Jack WANTS permanence with Ennis, but cannot find it, anywhere.
 
He's not sleeping with anything that moves.  He needs something that Ennis wouldn't give him.  So he slept around some to fulfill a need that not even Lureen was filling anymore.  He wanted Ennis and was going to settle for Randall in the end.  And if he really did move to LF with Randall, and he started the less-than-sweet-life with Randall, I don't think he'd be making those trips to Ennis.  He'd be in a committed relationship.

Agreed.

It's one thing for a gay man to be in a love-less marriage and cheat on his wife.  It's another (IMO) to be in a committed gay relationship and cheat on his partner.  But I'm not an expert on the gay lifestyle but the folks I do know are in deeply committed relationships.

Gay lifestyle in 'em early days in rural Wyoming is non-existent. You get whatever whenever you can. The lucky ones find the one person they can fall in love with, and stay together against all odds. Even Earl and Rich were so lucky.

As for cheating in a committed relationship, I am of the opinion that it matters not if it was a gay man in a loveless marriage or a gay man a in committed gay relationship, both Ennis and Jack were cheating on their wives. If they had been honest to begin with, they'd have less tragedy, and perhaps a happier ending. As was already mentioned in other threads here, Alma and Loreen were victims in this story, just as much as Ennis and Jack were victims of the homophobia that kept them apart.


Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

vedrana

  • Guest
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #430 on: Aug 05, 2009, 03:51 PM »

As for cheating in a committed relationship, I am of the opinion that it matters not if it was a gay man in a loveless marriage or a gay man a in committed gay relationship, both Ennis and Jack were cheating on their wives. If they had been honest to begin with, they'd have less tragedy, and perhaps a happier ending. As was already mentioned in other threads here, Alma and Loreen were victims in this story, just as much as Ennis and Jack were victims of the homophobia that kept them apart.


Yeah, we can see it now, but back then - it wasn't the honesty - it was a stream in which they were supposed to be - marriage, kids and all. When they fell into the merciless hands of the society, they were only supposed to follow. Didn't know better.

The moment they separated in 1963 ( :\'( ), it was over. Others took over their lives. They had that sweet moment when Ennis was bleeding and Jack showed all his affection, to fall in each other's arms and to admit the truth. When Ennis failed there, they lost their best opportunity.

And maybe - the more they yearned for each other, the less they could be honest to each other and to society. It was a deadly fear, especially for Ennis.

I know... I am OT! :P

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #431 on: Aug 05, 2009, 05:27 PM »
Yeah, we can see it now, but back then - it wasn't the honesty - it was a stream in which they were supposed to be - marriage, kids and all. When they fell into the merciless hands of the society, they were only supposed to follow. Didn't know better.

The moment they separated in 1963 ( :\'( ), it was over. Others took over their lives. They had that sweet moment when Ennis was bleeding and Jack showed all his affection, to fall in each other's arms and to admit the truth. When Ennis failed there, they lost their best opportunity.

And maybe - the more they yearned for each other, the less they could be honest to each other and to society. It was a deadly fear, especially for Ennis.

I know... I am OT! :P

Not really off topic. It's because of Jack, meeting that summer of '63, that Ennis couldn't follow the stream already set in motion, marry Alma, having kids. He may never be pawing the white out of the moon, but he'd be happy in his own way. It was because of Jack, knowing real happiness, that made his marriage fail.

Even after parting in '63, even knowing, figuring that he never should've let Jack outta his sight, he never tried to contact Jack for 'em four long years. It was Jack, who looked him up, and drove 14 hours to Riverton, that all 'em feelings with no rein came roaring back down 'em stairs two, three at a time.

Yes, it was because of Jack, that Ennis was like that...not that he was complaining those sixteen years, until Jack started saying, "I wish I knew how to quit you" and move on to someplace warm, like Mexico, with Jose.

For Ennis, who knew and loved only one man, what Jack did in that one sentence, was collapse his whole world, just as he collapsed, into Jack's arms.

It foreshadows the time when the postcard, collapsed his whole world for real.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline jedibarrister

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 56
  • Gender: Female
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #432 on: Aug 05, 2009, 07:09 PM »
Quote
I didn't imply Jack was the faithless transient whore. His relationship with Ennis, and his desire for the sweet life is proof that he was not transient. My implication was the Mexican encounters with prostitutes in dark alleys, his riding more than bulls in the rodeo circuits. Even Randall, I doubt that would amount to much. He might have told the old man when the stud duck needled him, asking where is this Ennis that you kept talking, knowing full well that Jack didn't bring anyone. The old man has a sore spot in Jack's psyche, and we need to take that into account in the dialog. In any case, Jack WANTS permanence with Ennis, but cannot find it, anywhere.

See I'm a strict interpretationist.  We see him start something with Randall.  He mentions Randall (by pretending it's his wife) to Ennis.  So clearly, Randall's an ongoing thing.  In a cut scene, it's Randall that ultimately outs Jack and gets him killed.  And that he changed from promises of Ennis to promises of Randall to John Twist all spell out that Jack was trying to carve some kind of happiness for his future.  It wouldn't be the perfect dream with Ennis, but something.  I have to fanwank a whole lot to add in Randall as a lie told to John Twist to shut John Twist up about Ennis when there's so much more in the screenplay that shows Randall had more prominence than an occasional lay for convenience's sake.

Quote
For Ennis, who knew and loved only one man, what Jack did in that one sentence, was collapse his whole world, just as he collapsed, into Jack's arms.

It foreshadows the time when the postcard, collapsed his whole world for real.

Beautiful
« Last Edit: Aug 06, 2009, 03:06 PM by jedibarrister »

Offline atalley

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 779
  • Gender: Female
  • "Jack, I swear."
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #433 on: Aug 05, 2009, 10:29 PM »
It's true, that happens when we live an experience that changes us. Jack and Ennis not only lived remembering that first time they knew in brokeback, but also recalling or trying to reenact that passion on their everyday life without each other, failing miserably. I believe Jack would have gone in November, no doubt, seeing how he embraced Ennis after he said "I wish" knowing after all that no matter the number of rejections from Ennis part, that phrase "I can't stand this anymore jack" demonstrates Ennis own suffering and struggles. It's because of you Jack that I'm like this... In love... and incapable of letting my heart open to anyone in the world but you.  :\'(

I really agree w/ this.  There was no way that Jack (IMO) could ever "quit" Ennis.  Look how he can't bear to see Ennis in this pain.  No matter how upset Jack is, he goes to console Ennis.  Ennis then breaks down when he realizes "I can't stand this anymore, Jack".  Between this admission & the break w/ Cassie at the Diner, I think Ennis was coming around.  Being away from Jack was ripping his heart apart. 

Offline atalley

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 779
  • Gender: Female
  • "Jack, I swear."
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #434 on: Aug 05, 2009, 10:37 PM »

The two lived on the surreal memories of that summer on Brokeback Mountain; they made each other that way.

Jack could never quit Ennis; Ennis loved no other but Jack.

Whether they knew it or admit it or not, they are stuck with each other.

I agree; however, I think that they had many good yrs. of "fishing" together, even if it was not on Brokeback.

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #435 on: Aug 05, 2009, 10:39 PM »
See I'm a strict interpretationist.  We see him start something with Randall.  He mentions Randall (by pretending it's his wife) to Ennis.  So clearly, Randall's an ongoing thing.  In a cut scene, it's Randall that ultimately outs Jack and gets him killed.  And that he changed from promises of Ennis to promises of Randall to John Twist all spell out that Jack was trying to carve some kind of happiness for his future.  It wouldn't be the perfect dream with Ennis, but something.  I have to fanwank a whole lot to add in Randall as a lie told to John Twist to shut Jack up about Ennis when there's so much more in the screenplay that shows Randall had more prominence than an occasional lay for convenience's sake.


I am convinced. I guess I didn't want to believe Jack would change, would quit Ennis, but I see your argument, and perhaps, as much as Jack hated to quit Ennis, he was finally, in that bitter disappointed look at the end of the final confrontation, ready to try something else, something new. I would like to think, even though Jack felt the need to explore other avenues, he would still be there for Ennis in November, and furthermore, even take up the sweet life if Ennis had changed and ready to move along with his proposal.  I am at a loss to know for sure if Jack would still change his mind, away from Randall and propose to Ennis again, if things work well in November. We'd never know for sure. If only...

I think it is this ambiguity, this uncertainty, this lack of clear resolution of Jack's state of mind, state of heart, towards Ennis, which is part of the PBS that affects us so much. We yearn to think, to hope that Jack was still there for Ennis, and Ennis was ready to be there for Jack. Despite the death which separates them, their love was still alive. We, through Ennis, live their love through the dreams when Jack come, to feel the eternal bond that cannot be broken. To me, that is the essence of Heath's final scene, in front of the closet, with the two shirts, "I swear." It is hope and faith and love eternal personified.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline atalley

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 779
  • Gender: Female
  • "Jack, I swear."
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #436 on: Aug 05, 2009, 10:49 PM »
Not really off topic. It's because of Jack, meeting that summer of '63, that Ennis couldn't follow the stream already set in motion, marry Alma, having kids. He may never be pawing the white out of the moon, but he'd be happy in his own way. It was because of Jack, knowing real happiness, that made his marriage fail.

Even after parting in '63, even knowing, figuring that he never should've let Jack outta his sight, he never tried to contact Jack for 'em four long years. It was Jack, who looked him up, and drove 14 hours to Riverton, that all 'em feelings with no rein came roaring back down 'em stairs two, three at a time.

Yes, it was because of Jack, that Ennis was like that...not that he was complaining those sixteen years, until Jack started saying, "I wish I knew how to quit you" and move on to someplace warm, like Mexico, with Jose.

For Ennis, who knew and loved only one man, what Jack did in that one sentence, was collapse his whole world, just as he collapsed, into Jack's arms.

It foreshadows the time when the postcard, collapsed his whole world for real.


As always, Andrew, I think you are "on target".

Offline atalley

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 779
  • Gender: Female
  • "Jack, I swear."
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #437 on: Aug 05, 2009, 10:55 PM »


I think it is this ambiguity, this uncertainty, this lack of clear resolution of Jack's state of mind, state of heart, towards Ennis, which is part of the PBS that affects us so much. We yearn to think, to hope that Jack was still there for Ennis, and Ennis was ready to be there for Jack. Despite the death which separates them, their love was still alive. We, through Ennis, live their love through the dreams when Jack come, to feel the eternal bond that cannot be broken. To me, that is the essence of Heath's final scene, in front of the closet, with the two shirts, "I swear." It is hope and faith and love eternal personified.

WOW...This says it all!

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #438 on: Aug 05, 2009, 10:57 PM »
Thanks, atalley, as always, for your kind generous words.  :^^)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline atalley

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 779
  • Gender: Female
  • "Jack, I swear."
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #439 on: Aug 05, 2009, 11:26 PM »
I'm about to fall asleep...catch y'all later. :gnight:

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #440 on: Aug 06, 2009, 06:55 AM »
and

and

We know that Jack had told his parents that Randall and he were coming up to Lighting Flat.  So it seems that Jack wants faithful companionship.  He wants to settle down...he doesn't want to prize Ennis' devotion like some harem-master.  So I don't ever see Jack as a "faithless transient" whore (which I may be incorrectly inferring from your statement).  He's not sleeping with anything that moves.  He needs something that Ennis wouldn't give him.  So he slept around some to fulfill a need that not even Lureen was filling anymore.  He wanted Ennis and was going to settle for Randall in the end.  And if he really did move to LF with Randall, and he started the less-than-sweet-life with Randall, I don't think he'd be making those trips to Ennis.  He'd be in a committed relationship.  It's one thing for a gay man to be in a love-less marriage and cheat on his wife.  It's another (IMO) to be in a committed gay relationship and cheat on his partner.  But I'm not an expert on the gay lifestyle but the folks I do know are in deeply committed relationships.

I also feel that at the core of Jack's anguish is his desire to be in a totally committed relationship with Ennis.  Everything else he does on the side was a reflection of his overall restlessness and frustration in not being able to pin Ennis down on the sweet life.  So, Ennis's words "It's because of you..." can also be said by Jack -- and in some sense, I do think that he also recognized this. 


athena0204

  • Guest
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #441 on: Aug 08, 2009, 02:56 PM »
I also feel that at the core of Jack's anguish is his desire to be in a totally committed relationship with Ennis.  Everything else he does on the side was a reflection of his overall restlessness and frustration in not being able to pin Ennis down on the sweet life.  So, Ennis's words "It's because of you..." can also be said by Jack -- and in some sense, I do think that he also recognized this. 


 

That's the way I see it too. The line could have been used to express how both of them felt. It just happened that Ennis blurted it out. What he meant by it was his frustration at himself, in that he knew he truly loved Jack but felt trapped and powerless to do what he wanted and be with his love. It's like saying "It's because of you, Jack, that I feel this way, all this anguish and being miserable all these years, is all because I love you and I can't be with you all the time."

Offline atalley

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 779
  • Gender: Female
  • "Jack, I swear."
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #442 on: Aug 09, 2009, 11:18 PM »
 

That's the way I see it too. The line could have been used to express how both of them felt. It just happened that Ennis blurted it out. What he meant by it was his frustration at himself, in that he knew he truly loved Jack but felt trapped and powerless to do what he wanted and be with his love. It's like saying "It's because of you, Jack, that I feel this way, all this anguish and being miserable all these years, is all because I love you and I can't be with you all the time."

I really like the way you summed up the LC scene.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #443 on: Aug 10, 2009, 07:04 AM »
 

That's the way I see it too. The line could have been used to express how both of them felt. It just happened that Ennis blurted it out. What he meant by it was his frustration at himself, in that he knew he truly loved Jack but felt trapped and powerless to do what he wanted and be with his love. It's like saying "It's because of you, Jack, that I feel this way, all this anguish and being miserable all these years, is all because I love you and I can't be with you all the time."

I think that a large part of why Jack didn't keep on fighting Ennis after the latter had said this memorable phrase was that Jack understood EXACTLY how Ennis was feeling.  He probably thought initially that he was the only one who felt this way -- waiting patiently for nearly 20 years for Ennis to yield, and NOT seeing his wish for a sweet life fulfilled in the process.  Did Ennis realize this at that very moment?  Probably not, although he probably did later -- after Jack had died.


athena0204

  • Guest
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #444 on: Aug 10, 2009, 10:22 PM »
It can also be compared to Jack saying "I wish I could quit you." Of course he didn't mean he wished he didn't love Ennis, he said it out of frustration because of how painful the circumstances they were in were, in that they were trapped, pretending to be something they weren't, living their lives apart and miserable, living only for the few weeks each year they could be together. And remember how after Jack says "I wish I could I could quit you," Ennis says while sobbing "Well why don't you?" to which Jack replies with holding Ennis in his arms as he cried and comforting him. That whole conversation they have the last time they see each other was the culmination of almost twenty years of longing and frusration, wishing they could be together all the time, but forced to be apart most of the time, forced into lives that made them lonely and sad. It's like Jack says at the end, that now all they have is Brokeback Mountain, I believe that is symbolic of being together, rather than the actual place itself. All they had in this life were those few times a year they could be together, and be happy and free and be themselves. They lived only for those times, that is what kept them going all those years.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers
« Reply #445 on: Aug 11, 2009, 06:54 AM »
I do think that "I wish I knew how to quit you" is a pendant to "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this..."  Each statement reveals a lot about each of them in a way that directly relaes to the other.

As mentioned by a number of people in various posts, "I wish I knew how to quit you" implies that jack didn't know how to quit Ennis.  Likewise, in "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...", Ennis pretty much admits that it is Jack and Jack alone who defines him as a person.

A very peculiar way of expressing such sentiments, I admit.  But deep frustration got in the way of more positive admissions.