Author Topic: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers  (Read 30808 times)

Offline brokebackmountain

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #30 on: Jan 13, 2006, 05:06 PM »
I think the film's length is fine--the result of much thought from some very gifted people who have lived with this material longer that anyone else...Selfishly, I could have watched much more..
Discussing Ang Lee and repression...remember the Wedding Banquet? Or Alan Richman's character who longed for Kate Winslett in Sense and Sensibility?  Ang seems to be artist who is attracted to repression and its effects. I think there is an element of Eastern philosophy (repression, patience, introspection) that runs through Lee's work. Spielberg, Zemekis, Cameron, Lucas..they don't have that predilection. Their movies are 2 1/2 to 3 hours..and so much time is spent on Special Effects.
I can't imagine cutting any scenes..only adding.

You nailed it, bnjmn3. I have been a big fan of Ang Lee and the Wedding Banquet was one of my favorites. Repression is Ang's signature. I recall from his interview that he said through repression, one could feel the weakness and drama of human being. His movies like you have said blend the element of Eatern philosophy. I am not a movie expert but his movies just move me (maybe not the Hulk).

Regarding adding or substracting, I also feel the movie is fine - it is slow at time which I don't mind. Putting the subject matter aside, the pace is probably not with everyone's taste.

After reading the short story, I would like to see the motel part longer. The story has a considerable amount of description for their reunion. The motel scene was short in the movie but cut to the point. Although I would like to see more in that scene, it would not have made a difference to portray Ennis and Jack's strong feeling for each other.


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Offline tpe

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #31 on: Jan 13, 2006, 05:24 PM »
[Regarding adding or substracting, I also feel the movie is fine - it is slow at time which I don't mind. Putting the subject matter aside, the pace is probably not with everyone's taste.

Ang Lee is well known (notorious?) for following the full arc of his stories, no matter how long it takes.  In a sense, I like slow movies that inevitably get you somewhere without sensing the journey.  I would prefer not to label BBM a slow movie though.  I don't think there is a static part to it. 

Quote
After reading the short story, I would like to see the motel part longer. The story has a considerable amount of description for their reunion. The motel scene was short in the movie but cut to the point. Although I would like to see more in that scene, it would not have made a difference to portray Ennis and Jack's strong feeling for each other.


brokebackmountain, do you know that the motel scene was the change that Proulx found it very hard to accept initially.  I think she objected to shifting a portion of the dialog between Ennis and Jack later to the 'Paryer of Thanks' scene.  After writing numerous letter to the director and producer to keep the motel scene intact, she let things go.  later, she said that she may have been wrong to have objected so streniously and admitted that the modification made good sense on film.

Personally, I am a bit glad that the  motel scene was shortened a bit, and an important portion moved to the scne on Brokeback.  In the original story, we don't even see the lovers together up on the mountain, as it ends with Ennis making a phone call to Alma telling her that he and Jack were going up the mountains for a few days.  I think the introduction of the 'Prayer of Thanks' scene was beautiful, as you could see the happiness of the lovers before childhood memories and fears took over.

Offline brokebackmountain

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #32 on: Jan 13, 2006, 05:29 PM »
Just found this article from San Francisco Chronicle entitled 'Ang Lee's visions from the 'other side of the moon' by Jeff Yangto to further elaborate on Ang's blend of Eastern philosophy and his vision of movies.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/12/30/ANG.TMP&nl=top

Here is what Ang said,

"Who I am, how I was brought up, I use that a lot in my work," he says. "I feel that deep inside of me; there's a mistrust of depending on things. Everything changes; that's the essence of life. It's kind of Taoist. At a certain age, every Chinese person thinks that way. That's our belief; that's our faith.

To Lee, culture, identity, sexual orientation, all of the social phenomena that occupy so much of our time and concentration, are merely filters through which one can observe the common experience of being human. It's why he can so readily shift frames of reference, and engage such a myriad array of subjects. The flip formality of a 19th century British socialite, the melancholy loneliness of a wandering swordsman, the suppressed rage of a mild-mannered scientist, the nonverbal yearning of a gay cowboy, all of these are mere masks, behind which lie not universal truth but an infinite series of other masks, extending backward into the void. It's said by some that the core element in the Chinese personality is passive-aggressiveness, as evidenced by a tendency to avoid conflict, to suppress emotion, to communicate in code, or not at all.

If so -- and this assertion strays to the edge of stereotype -- it's understandable, given the brew of philosophical inputs that make up Chinese culture: the Confucian concept of dual realities -- one formal, one functional; the Buddhist notion of life as transient and the world as an illusion; the Taoist idea of complementary opposites, yin coexisting with yang."


I could not have said it better.

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Offline brokebackmountain

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #33 on: Jan 13, 2006, 05:36 PM »
Ang Lee is well known (notorious?) for following the full arc of his stories, no matter how long it takes.  In a sense, I like slow movies that inevitably get you somewhere without sensing the journey.  I would prefer not to label BBM a slow movie though.  I don't think there is a static part to it. 

You are right - "slow" is not a good choice of word. You are right that there is no static part in the movie. Everyone scene serves its purpose.

Quote
brokebackmountain, do you know that the motel scene was the change that Proulx found it very hard to accept initially.  I think she objected to shifting a portion of the dialog between Ennis and Jack later to the 'Paryer of Thanks' scene.  After writing numerous letter to the director and producer to keep the motel scene intact, she let things go.  later, she said that she may have been wrong to have objected so streniously and admitted that the modification made good sense on film.

Personally, I am a bit glad that the  motel scene was shortened a bit, and an important portion moved to the scne on Brokeback.  In the original story, we don't even see the lovers together up on the mountain, as it ends with Ennis making a phone call to Alma telling her that he and Jack were going up the mountains for a few days.  I think the introduction of the 'Prayer of Thanks' scene was beautiful, as you could see the happiness of the lovers before childhood memories and fears took over.

tpe, no I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing out. I could see the reason why. My rationale for the motel scene is only for selfish reason - I'd like to see more intimacy between them and the motel scene was probably the only clear one for their connection.

I am lost - what is "Prayer of Thanks" scene? See even after seeing BBM 4 times, it is still puzzling sometimes.  ;D
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Offline bnjmn3

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #34 on: Jan 13, 2006, 05:39 PM »
Their first trip back to BBM after 4years...
"Sending up a prayer of thanks for you forgetting that harmonica"
Remember?
We can't change it. We will have to stand it.

Offline brokebackmountain

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #35 on: Jan 13, 2006, 05:41 PM »
Their first trip back to BBM after 4years...
"Sending up a prayer of thanks for you forgetting that harmonica"
Remember?

Now that rings bell. Thanks, bnjmn3. (blaming PBS)
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Offline tpe

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #36 on: Jan 13, 2006, 05:42 PM »
[I am lost - what is "Prayer of Thanks" scene? See even after seeing BBM 4 times, it is still puzzling sometimes.  ;D

brokebackmountain, sorry if I tend to make up these tags for the scenes! :)

The scene was when they were on their first 'fishing trip'.  It was night and they were beside the camp fire.  Ennis was lying down facing the sky and Jack asks if he sees anything interesting in heaven, to which Ennis replies that he is sending a prayer of thanks...

Offline brokebackmountain

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #37 on: Jan 13, 2006, 05:47 PM »
brokebackmountain, sorry if I tend to make up these tags for the scenes! :)

The scene was when they were on their first 'fishing trip'.  It was night and they were beside the camp fire.  Ennis was lying down facing the sky and Jack asks if he sees anything interesting in heaven, to which Ennis replies that he is sending a prayer of thanks...

No need to apologize, tpe. Thanks for clarification. The scene made me smile.  :D
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Offline tpe

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #38 on: Jan 13, 2006, 05:52 PM »
The scene made me smile.  :D

Funny, but, like you, I always smile when I see this scene.  I suspect this is a very common reaction at seeing Ennis and Jack together like this. :)

Offline manila_rocks

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #39 on: Jan 13, 2006, 06:00 PM »
I must admit that scene is just to die for!   So peaceful and romantic.   True bliss.

Oh, to live in the US or Europe where one can readily see such films without delay!

Offline tpe

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #40 on: Jan 13, 2006, 06:05 PM »
I must admit that scene is just to die for!   So peaceful and romantic.   True bliss.

Oh, to live in the US or Europe where one can readily see such films without delay!

Thanks manila_rocks.

I do hope you get the opportunity to see it MANY more times. ;)

Offline manila_rocks

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #41 on: Jan 13, 2006, 06:20 PM »
I certainly hope so!    I often think that with the shortness of life I should consider moving to a more western country.   The confines of an island nation such as the Philippine's can befuddle even the best of us!

Offline ranchgal

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #42 on: Jan 14, 2006, 12:49 AM »
One thing I really wish they would have added, was the dialog in the motel.
they let Jack say his redline statement.   And that was it.
I loved Ennis saying about how he puked his guts out, and "took about a year till I knew that I never should have let you out of my sight."   I think it would have helped to have jack hear it too---I would have loved to hear it.

I could have cut the scene either with Joe counting the sheep and complaining, and/or the pie scene with Cassie, and/or the supermarket scene  none of them really added much, and left me mostly nuetral about them.     I know the supermarket was in the book, but it really didn't tell me anything new about either Ennis or Alma, and the other two were dialoged into the movie.

Offline brokebackmountain

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #43 on: Jan 14, 2006, 01:00 AM »
One thing I really wish they would have added, was the dialog in the motel.
they let Jack say his redline statement.   And that was it.
I loved Ennis saying about how he puked his guts out, and "took about a year till I knew that I never should have let you out of my sight."   I think it would have helped to have jack hear it too---I would have loved to hear it.

Hey, ranchgal. I am with you on this one. But the more I think about why it was left out - the more I feel it was meant to make Ennis's "regret" stronger at the end. Throughout the movie, Ennis didn't express too much emotion. The exchanges in the motel seems to lessen the effect of regret.

Quote
I could have cut the scene either with Joe counting the sheep and complaining, and/or the pie scene with Cassie, and/or the supermarket scene  none of them really added much, and left me mostly nuetral about them.     I know the supermarket was in the book, but it really didn't tell me anything new about either Ennis or Alma, and the other two were dialoged into the movie.

I think the scene with Cassie is necessary. She is a second woman that Ennis had disappointed. It shows that even though Ennis has "tried" to get back to his "normal" life, he was not able to emotionally. This actually signifies his bond with Jack.
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Offline *Froggy*

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #44 on: Jan 14, 2006, 01:05 AM »
One thing I really wish they would have added, was the dialog in the motel.
they let Jack say his redline statement.   And that was it.
I loved Ennis saying about how he puked his guts out, and "took about a year till I knew that I never should have let you out of my sight."   I think it would have helped to have jack hear it too---I would have loved to hear it.

Yes it is a scene I would have loved to see...Since i would have liked to see the reaction on Ennis' face!!!
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Offline brokebackmountain

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #45 on: Jan 14, 2006, 02:10 PM »
I thought of another one while re-reading the short story.

Many have said that the first tent scene was too sudden. But if you read the short story, it can be easily understood. Ennis and Jack just bonded.

"They had a high-time supper by the fire, a can of beans each, fried potatoes and a quart of whiskey on shares, sat with their backs against a log, boot soles and copper jeans rivets hot, swapping the bottle while the lavender sky emptied of color and the chill air drained down, drinking, smoking cigarettes, getting up every now and then to piss, firelight throwing a sparkle in the arched stream, tossing sticks on the fire to keep the talk going, talking horses and rodeo, roughstock events, wrecks and injuries sustained, the submarine Thresher lost two months earlier with all hands and how it must have been in the last doomed minutes, dogs each had owned and known, the draft, Jack's home ranch where his father and mother held on, Ennis's family place folded years ago after his folks died, the older brother in Signal and a married sister in Casper. Jack said his father had been a pretty well known bullrider years back but kept his secrets to himself, never gave Jack a word of advice, never came once to see Jack ride, though he had put him on the woolies when he was a little kid. Ennis said the kind of riding that interested him lasted longer than eight seconds and had some point to it. Money's a good point, said Jack, and Ennis had to agree. They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon."

The summer went on and they moved the herd to new pasture, shifted the camp; the distance between the sheep and the new camp was greater and the night ride longer. Ennis rode easy, sleeping with his eyes open, but the hours he was away from the sheep stretched out and out. Jack pulled a squalling burr out of the harmonica, flattened a little from a fall off the skittish bay mare, and Ennis had a good raspy voice; a few nights they mangled their way through some songs. Ennis knew the salty words to "Strawberry Roan." Jack tried a Carl Perkins song, bawling "what I say-ay-ay," but he favored a sad hymn, "Water-Walking Jesus," learned from his mother who believed in the Pentecost, that he sang at dirge slowness, setting off distant coyote yips.
............without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.

How I wish to see more before they got into the physical intimacy. 
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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #46 on: Jan 14, 2006, 04:21 PM »
One thing I really wish they would have added, was the dialog in the motel.
they let Jack say his redline statement.   And that was it.
I loved Ennis saying about how he puked his guts out, and "took about a year till I knew that I never should have let you out of my sight."   I think it would have helped to have jack hear it too---I would have loved to hear it.

Hmm...are those the seeds of regret (Jack, I swear...)?

Offline Toadily

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #47 on: Jan 14, 2006, 04:26 PM »
I heard Annie Proulx originally had some issue with the fact Ang made the motel scene short and then put some of the rest of it outdoors instead but once she saw it it worked.
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Offline borger1582

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #48 on: Jan 15, 2006, 12:52 PM »
Regarding the motel scene and the missing dialog, I have two thoughts to add:

1. I discovered that the main reason I missed it was because of the verbal affection Ennis demonstrates to Jack in that dialog.  It took me other viewings of the film, and pondering what other posters said in the threads, but I "came around,' not to not-missing-the-dialog, but agreeing that the "prayer of thanks" line was a better way of Ennis expressing his affection for Jack in terms of the character that "film Ennis" projected in the film - just not as talkative or expressive.  To restate more clearly, the "prayer-of-thanks" and similar dialog does a good job of expressing Ennis' feelings for Jack.

2. I have read that Proulx was not just missing the dialog, but (perhaps even more of a problem for her) she believed that, in her story, the motel scene was the dramatic and emotional center of the story.  Everything there is to know, everything you need to know, about Jack and Ennis' relationship is right there in all they say and DON'T SAY to each other in the motel scene.  She believed, and I agree, that the screenwriters and Ang Lee moved the dramatic center of the film to the final meeting/confrontation by the lake, before they part ways for what (neither of them knows) will be the last time.  From what I read, THIS shift was the thing she protested the most, but once she saw the film, agreed that the flimmakers had done the right thing.

As much as the screenplay does seem to mimic the story (and I can't remember the last time, as a lover of a story I was as pleased with the film adaptation, although it took multiple viewings) they are different visions, if you will, of the same fictional lives or events, and ultimately I suppose they must be analyzed on their own merits - but I gotta admit, contrasting the two is a lot of fun!

Offline brokebackmountain

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #49 on: Jan 15, 2006, 01:29 PM »
2. I have read that Proulx was not just missing the dialog, but (perhaps even more of a problem for her) she believed that, in her story, the motel scene was the dramatic and emotional center of the story.  Everything there is to know, everything you need to know, about Jack and Ennis' relationship is right there in all they say and DON'T SAY to each other in the motel scene.  She believed, and I agree, that the screenwriters and Ang Lee moved the dramatic center of the film to the final meeting/confrontation by the lake, before they part ways for what (neither of them knows) will be the last time.  From what I read, THIS shift was the thing she protested the most, but once she saw the film, agreed that the flimmakers had done the right thing.

As much as the screenplay does seem to mimic the story (and I can't remember the last time, as a lover of a story I was as pleased with the film adaptation, although it took multiple viewings) they are different visions, if you will, of the same fictional lives or events, and ultimately I suppose they must be analyzed on their own merits - but I gotta admit, contrasting the two is a lot of fun!

Thank you for adding this, borger1582. Indeed the motel scene is the one centerpiece for the readers to really get a grip of what is going on with Jack and Ennis. In the movie, it was shifted to the heartbreaking scene of confrontation with frustration, anger, vulnerability and love. BBM is the first movie I ever seen and compare it with the original story. Very fulfilling and interesting.
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Offline Rod

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #50 on: Feb 09, 2006, 08:45 PM »
Their first trip back to BBM after 4years...
"Sending up a prayer of thanks for you forgetting that harmonica"
Remember?


I think that Jack and us expected Ennis to say something...Thank Heaven we are back up here together again, and even though Ennis made a joke, I still think he was really thinking the former.

Offline rikcub

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #51 on: Feb 09, 2006, 09:09 PM »
I have to say that after five viewings it actually seems rather short to me...I think that is because Ang did such a good job of making us care about these people that I want to know more.  All this because each and every scene serves its own purpose.  Slow moving...yes...Ang takes his time to tell the story just as it should be told.  Too long...no way.

Offline bnjmn3

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #52 on: Feb 09, 2006, 09:18 PM »
Way too short...BBM could use another 60 minutes, a Prequel would be great, and the sequel would be sad..maybe..who knows...could be happy.
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Offline chameau

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #53 on: Feb 09, 2006, 09:51 PM »
I have to say that after five viewings it actually seems rather short to me...I think that is because Ang did such a good job of making us care about these people that I want to know more.  All this because each and every scene serves its own purpose.  Slow moving...yes...Ang takes his time to tell the story just as it should be told.  Too long...no way.

Ditto!

The movie is just perfect as it is.  Many friends here wonder if the DVD will show cut scenes.  I'm ain't sure.  It's ain't Starwars.
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Offline cybernaut

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #54 on: Feb 10, 2006, 12:09 AM »
Well, I hope Ang Lee will be kind enough to put out a
"Collectors' DVD Edition, New Director's Cut"  :D

Like all other advertising gimmick, the DVD has 1 minute new footage added into the movie.  :P
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Offline *Froggy*

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #55 on: Feb 11, 2006, 11:36 AM »
Well, I hope Ang Lee will be kind enough to put out a
"Collectors' DVD Edition, New Director's Cut"  :D

Like all other advertising gimmick, the DVD has 1 minute new footage added into the movie.  :P

I so want the Collector's edition..maybe we should email Ang Lee directly!!!!
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Offline tireiron

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Re: Should the film had added/subtracted more? - possible spoilers
« Reply #56 on: Feb 14, 2006, 03:34 PM »
I would leave the movie just the way Ang Lee wanted it, but just in case
he left the end credits song for others to choose, I would throw out the
Willie Nelson song (written by Bob Dylan), and use score music by
Gustavo Santaolalla, without a song.