Author Topic: The Sweet Life?  (Read 51918 times)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #90 on: May 09, 2012, 03:28 AM »
Interesting discussion. Thanks for starting it up again Forever.

I think Jack knew, fairly early in the summer, that he didn't want to let Ennis out of his sight. He certainly knew by the end of the summer. That's the reason for the tears, and stealing the shirt.

It took Ennis a bit longer to get in touch with his own feelings, being closed up tight and all. It took him a year to figure out what Jack knew, but it would take longer for him to figure out what to do with 'em feelings.

Jack knew, and wanted the sweet life. He was lonely, always, even with people all around him, even with Lureen dancing in his arms, looking lovingly at him. He gave his heart to Ennis back on the mountain. That's the point of their love...the two lonely cowboys met and fitted together like two gloves...one quiet and enjoyed solitude when he had to, the other liked the sound of his own voice to chase away the loneliness. They found friendship when none was expected. Jack knew, like one of 'em lucky ones, that Ennis was the one...

Ennis was so out of touch with his own feelings, having 'em locked away in his secret hiding place, and lost the key after so many years. FNIT was like a dream, being drunk and all. SNIT was the first time when he went looking...staring into the fire and remembering the combination, the road back into the fortress that he built, so many years ago. It is the reason why SNIT is so much more passionate and romantic, to me. That was the first time when the real Ennis came out to play. You can see the surprise in Jack's face...Ennis ain't no quiet shy cowboy. Like Aaron in Latter Days, 'em repressed shy quiet ones are the ones that will scream and holler and knock the walls down once they release the flood of emotions penned up all 'em years.

Jack wanted more; Ennis was afraid to give, to live the sweet life. He didn't know what he was missing until it was too late. That's the quality in Jack which Ennis loved most...the visionary seeing what was possible...the bluebirds singing next to whiskey springs. Jack wanted to stay near the camp...Ennis switched. Jack wanted more than beans...Ennis shot that elk. Jack wanted some place warm...Ennis got Don Wroe's cabin. The one thing that Ennis could not give to Jack, was the sweet life, because Ennis didn't think he had it in him to give that much. It's the proverbial cold feed before a wedding; it's the fear of being victims of homophobia; it's the frightful uncertainty of the unknown.

Jack saw it clear as day, just the two of 'em away from everything, in the furthest most isolated corner of Wyoming. In a ranch away from everyone, just the two of them, and the cows and calves. Well, and Jack's Ma and Pa. Jack knew he got his Ma wrapped around his finger, and he figured with Ennis's help, they could fix up the ranch real good. His Pa would be impressed with Ennis, and the money coming in from the cow and calf business will help to change his mind about two guys living together.

In a way, the practical Ennis was likely thinking ahead, knowing this thing with no rein, living under the same roof with Jack's Ma and Pa, just ain't going to happen. Imagine 'em two locking lips the first night in Jack's room, with the walls paper thin. "No, Jack. We just can't." The self-disciplined stoic Ennis closed up tight like a clenched fist. It must have been terrifying to have this thing with no rein, threatening to expose him to all the world....that's really as much to fear, for Ennis, as the violence from homophobia. To lose control is to lose himself.

Sweet life? It would be a horrible life living a lie under the same roof with Jack's parents, one he loves, and the other he desperately wanted to be loved. No, Jack. What we got, is all we can have. Take it or leave it Jack.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Forever

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #91 on: May 09, 2012, 11:14 AM »
You're welcome Lance! Impressive insight, never thought to become a writer? If only English was my mother language I could compete with you! But in that case I will not because I agree with what you just wrote! And I'm very glad that you're so sweet with my Jack! Yes I confess I am Jack's girl, but I do love Ennis too!  ;)
you have no idea how bad it gets!!!

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #92 on: May 10, 2012, 02:15 AM »
You're welcome Lance! Impressive insight, never thought to become a writer? If only English was my mother language I could compete with you! But in that case I will not because I agree with what you just wrote! And I'm very glad that you're so sweet with my Jack! Yes I confess I am Jack's girl, but I do love Ennis too!  ;)

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I have thought of becoming a writer, or at least, becoming a published professional writer. I already do a lot of writing.  :) ::) I got my start right here in this forum, this valley of love and friendship. No need to even think about your English being a second language. It's not a competition to a race, but a cooperative exploration of the landscape of love. As I said a couple posts ago, thank you for starting up this idle thread again, and inspiring a great discussion. Anything you find impressive in my posts, you can be sure they came from the movie, from this forum, from your inspiring reaction to the film. It's interesting, but it just occurred to me, from the way you said, "I am Jack's girl." that there are probably a lot more female fans of Jack than there are male fans of Jack. But perhaps I over-generalize. Then again, I know many who would not say they are Ennis's guy, but would secretly rejoice if it were the case. Yes, "I am Ennis's guy." This Kurt, does he love you?

Yes, Ennis, I love you.  :(

I better get outta here before I fall into PBS, again.  :h:
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Forever

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #93 on: May 10, 2012, 05:14 PM »
Inspiring me? How sweet of you Lance!  :^^) For me, this forum is a blessing, I have learned so many things because of you dear Brokies... You can't imagine how I'm thankful, my English was a mess before I met you guys, and because of you I want to learn more and more, yes, French is my mother language, I can speak Dutch fluently although I never felt attracted to this language, but English god! I can remember I was crazy about English when I was a teenager at school! I went to England in a family for one month when I was 16 years old, it was magical moments, unforgettable moments, I knew then somehow that it's exactly what I wanted, live in a foreign country!
I wonder why I didn't persist my study in English when I was younger... My best friend went 2 years in an University in Seattle, I was 20, she wanted me to come, to join her... but the ticket was so expensive, and when she came back, I was so jealous! she could speak English so well! Regrets... and then I met this handsome Dutch guy... Because of you and because of this forum I feel alive again, because I'm passionate about BBM I want to improve my English everyday, because I want you to be proud of me... So thank you so much for that!  :) But now I realize that I am completely  *o)  ~)   
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #94 on: May 11, 2012, 02:07 PM »
Forever, you do indeed inspire. It is not from answers that we take a step higher into new understanding, but questions. From questions, we see through difference eyes, and find unexpected answers. I always thought Jack never told Ennis about the ranch in Lightning Flats, about fixing it up, the two of them. After all, what excuses would Ennis have to turn down such a sweet offer, the sweet life? A lonely ranch in the most isolated part of Wyoming, indeed, of the country? Then the discussion led to Jack's Pa and Ma, and it's obvious. I bet Jack talked with Ennis about this many a times when they met. I bet Jack kept telling Ennis that he talked about it with his Pa, too. That changes the meaning of Ennis's stubborn refusal to a whole new level, and makes sense of Jack's outburst at the Final Confrontation. It wasn't a sudden uncharacteristic outburst, but the end of Jack's patience, after explaining and pleading for years and years.

Thank you for sharing your history, and I am sure your brush with the Sweet Life in England, and with your Dutch fellow, fuel your love for Brokeback Mountain. Sometimes, we don't get to decide on Sweet Life. Fate's circumstances decide for us. No regrets, Forever, because you are the person you are today, and we don't know what you would be like if you had indeed gone to Seattle, etc. Would you trade the passion you feel for Brokeback Mountain, for a better command of the English language? Then again, who is to say how life's twists and turns will change us? It's a pointless endless maze of what if, could've been that traps us into a past that never was.  The life we have today is good. The life we make of it for tomorrow is sweeter still.

Always remember the motto of the forum printed in the banner above. "Born of their love. Forever bound by ours."  :^^) :c)

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2012, 07:07 PM »
Hmm, I'm not sure what I think about what Jack told Ennis about his parents' place. I believe that he used to tell his dad they'd be coming up someday to fix things up. I'm not sure if I think he shared that idea with Ennis. And I always believed that it was his ultimate goal to find a place for just the two of them where they could build their own operation. Nothing fancy, just enough to get by. Did he throw the idea out every now and then on those camping trips? Or was he waiting, always waiting for a sign that it would be ok to broach the subject but never getting the chance because at the first hint of such talk Ennis shut it down and deflected to other topics? We'll never know of course. Those trips are filled with private moments that they didn't share even with us. We know that they maintained their passion through all those years, we know they camped out, more often than not in the cold by Jack's remarks. And we know they took the horses with them and made small talk of various kinds, most likely to distract them from thinking of their inevitable parting and to avoid having to address the only real conflict they ever seemed to have - that dang sweet life dispute. And I do think it was an uncharacteristic outburst on Jack's part. Annie Proulx described their confrontation as years of things unsaid rising around them. For some people that's the start of finding solutions to their conflicts. That Jack and Ennis merely brought things back to where they'd always been indicates a knowledge on the part of both men that there was no other solution than the one they'd been living all those years - getting together once in a while out in the middle of nowhere. Because Ennis couldn't bring himself to believe in the possibility of anything more and neither could let go of those few precious moments spent together each year. Sigh...
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

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The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline chowhound

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #96 on: May 23, 2012, 04:22 PM »
The back story to Jack, Ennis and OMT is undoubtedly intriguing. When, for instance, did Jack first make this suggestion to his father that he and Ennis could move there, build a cabin and sort the place out?

Maybe it wasn't in the early stages of his relationship with Ennis but later on. In the short story, Jack's mother says "he [Jack] used to come home every year, even after he was married and down in Texas, and help his daddy on the ranch for a week, fix the gates and mow and all." It may have been that when more of his time was demanded by OMT that Jack fended off these demands by suggesting that at some point he could move up to the ranch with Ennis, something which obviously never came about. Personally, I wonder whether all of this wasn't one of Jack's day dreams which even he might have recognized was unlikely to ever be realized.

I can't see Ennis even considering such a suggestion given Ennis's deep seated fear of anyone knowing about them. Moving in with Jack under the watchful eye of OMT would, I think, be the last thing that Ennis would agree to.

I therefore think it's unlikely that Jack ever mentioned this scheme to Ennis - or, if he did, was told "no way" in no uncertain terms. But he may have continued to say it to his father as a way of answering his nagging demands for more assistance around the ranch. 

Offline jackster

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #97 on: May 24, 2012, 04:01 PM »
These great posts pose some intriguing possibilities . . .  and seemingly endless questions . . .

'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say, `I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.' He had some half baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin, and help me run this ranch and bring it up.

I tend to agree with you CH, that this was probably well into the relationship with Ennis when Jack mentioned this to Ma an' Pa. If Jack came up to Wyoming every year to "fish" or sum other four-letter activities with Ennis, then went to visit Ma an' Pa, this would seem like a logical extension of his visit north - "Yeah, I'm goin' fishin' with Ennis and will be over to see you when we come down from the mountains".

"I know where Brokeback Mountain is" his Pa said to Ennis - per AP they never went back to Brokeback, always headed to other locations. So how did Pa happen to focus on this? It must simply be because Jack ask to have the ashes go there, as this would not have been one of the spots for their fishin' trips. So it doesn't seem like it would have come up, of course Jack as a young man had probably mentioned it after his first ('62) and then second ('63) summer up there when we know he afterwards headed over to help his daddy. Does seem a little remarkable that Pa would have recalled this location so many years later.

On the question of when, or if, Jack ever posed the question to Ennis 'bout settin' up something at Lightin' Flat - seems like it could go two ways:

"Listen. I'm thinkin, tell you what, if you and me had a little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life. Like I said, I'm gettin out a rodeo. . . . . I got it figured, got this plan Ennis, how we can do it, you and me. Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a bunch if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it_"

This was 1967, seems to me that Jack was already thinkin' Lightin' Flat here (it was already clear to him he needed an alternative to Childress), - easin' his folks out and settin' something up where he had an "in", knew the lay of the land, and which was "way out in the middle a' nowhere". 'Course Ennis put the kibosh on this even before Jack could elaborate his scheme. But following this thinking, Jack would have not necessarily discussed it in any more detail with Ennis, thinking he could sell Ennis on it in time. But he could have laid out some vague schemes to Ma an' Pa' over the years just to gauge the old man's reaction to having them come help him (and in Jack's thinking eventually push them out of the picture). This would have been a pretty attractive fantasy for Jack I'd guess, one that he could focus on for years as we all do. One that has both Ennis and OMT seeing things Jack's way and turning into the Sweet Life for Jack and Ennis.

Alternatively he might have presented the idea to Ennis on several occasions, in different ways. But of course in the Final Argument in response to Ennis' question "You got a better idea? Jack responds "I did once". This would make me think that he never breached the subject with Ennis again. Which of course is one of the frustrating tragedies of the epic, why the f*** not? If Jack is such a good salesman why didn't he keep trying to subtly convince Ennis there was a way to do this? I personally think Ennis might of been persuaded to do the Lighting Flat move if Jack had laid out a "safe-house" type scheme for Ennis, one where Ennis could keep up the "straight-man" front but still be able to work (and play) with Jack "out in the middle of nowhere" under the pretext of "bringing up" the old Twist Ranch once again. Maybe Jack could have even taken Ennis over there to see the lay of the land an' all. But, Ennis's homophobia is such he's unable to take even this little step in understanding or recognizing his own desires and possibilities, and Jack seems afraid or unable to push him. I guess this is part of the point AP is trying to make, Ennis was so frozen by his fear, unable to move forward, unable to recognize himself in the mirror. At least until he goes into, and then comes out of, Jack's closet at Lightin' Flat (IMHO).


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Offline chowhound

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2012, 04:23 PM »
These great posts pose some intriguing possibilities . . .  and seemingly endless questions . . .

'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say, `I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.' He had some half baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin, and help me run this ranch and bring it up.

I tend to agree with you CH, that this was probably well into the relationship with Ennis when Jack mentioned this to Ma an' Pa. If Jack came up to Wyoming every year to "fish" or sum other four-letter activities with Ennis, then went to visit Ma an' Pa, this would seem like a logical extension of his visit north - "Yeah, I'm goin' fishin' with Ennis and will be over to see you when we come down from the mountains".

"I know where Brokeback Mountain is" his Pa said to Ennis - per AP they never went back to Brokeback, always headed to other locations. So how did Pa happen to focus on this? It must simply be because Jack ask to have the ashes go there, as this would not have been one of the spots for their fishin' trips. So it doesn't seem like it would have come up, of course Jack as a young man had probably mentioned it after his first ('62) and then second ('63) summer up there when we know he afterwards headed over to help his daddy. Does seem a little remarkable that Pa would have recalled this location so many years later.

On the question of when, or if, Jack ever posed the question to Ennis 'bout settin' up something at Lightin' Flat - seems like it could go two ways:

"Listen. I'm thinkin, tell you what, if you and me had a little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life. Like I said, I'm gettin out a rodeo. . . . . I got it figured, got this plan Ennis, how we can do it, you and me. Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a bunch if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it_"

This was 1967, seems to me that Jack was already thinkin' Lightin' Flat here (it was already clear to him he needed an alternative to Childress), - easin' his folks out and settin' something up where he had an "in", knew the lay of the land, and which was "way out in the middle a' nowhere". 'Course Ennis put the kibosh on this even before Jack could elaborate his scheme. But following this thinking, Jack would have not necessarily discussed it in any more detail with Ennis, thinking he could sell Ennis on it in time. But he could have laid out some vague schemes to Ma an' Pa' over the years just to gauge the old man's reaction to having them come help him (and in Jack's thinking eventually push them out of the picture). This would have been a pretty attractive fantasy for Jack I'd guess, one that he could focus on for years as we all do. One that has both Ennis and OMT seeing things Jack's way and turning into the Sweet Life for Jack and Ennis.

Alternatively he might have presented the idea to Ennis on several occasions, in different ways. But of course in the Final Argument in response to Ennis' question "You got a better idea? Jack responds "I did once". This would make me think that he never breached the subject with Ennis again. Which of course is one of the frustrating tragedies of the epic, why the f*** not? If Jack is such a good salesman why didn't he keep trying to subtly convince Ennis there was a way to do this? I personally think Ennis might of been persuaded to do the Lighting Flat move if Jack had laid out a "safe-house" type scheme for Ennis, one where Ennis could keep up the "straight-man" front but still be able to work (and play) with Jack "out in the middle of nowhere" under the pretext of "bringing up" the old Twist Ranch once again. Maybe Jack could have even taken Ennis over there to see the lay of the land an' all. But, Ennis's homophobia is such he's unable to take even this little step in understanding or recognizing his own desires and possibilities, and Jack seems afraid or unable to push him. I guess this is part of the point AP is trying to make, Ennis was so frozen by his fear, unable to move forward, unable to recognize himself in the mirror. At least until he goes into, and then comes out of, Jack's closet at Lightin' Flat (IMHO).




Some very interesting and thought provoking speculations, Jackster, on some ways in which Jack could have at least imagined the "sweet life" with Ennis might be achieved.

As Brokeback Mountain is an imaginary mountain situated amongst named places in Wyoming, we don't know where in Wyoming Brokeback Mountain is supposed to be. So maybe OMT knew where Brokeback Mountain was because it wasn't too far from Lightning Flat. However, I'm afraid I don't know the topography of Wyoming to say how far you'd have to travel from Lighning Flat to get to mountains but maybe somebody on this board does. All I know is that Jack needed a car to get there and Ennis had to hitchhike

Of course Jack had spent the previous summer there and would no doubt have talked to his parents about Brokeback after leaving it that summer. And Mrs. Twist certainly has enough knowledge of where it was to get a message to Jack that his (probably) gay uncle Harold,  Mrs Twist's brother, was ill in hospital with pneumonia. So I'm not surprised that OMT says he knows where Brokeback is.

I enjoyed reading your speculation that the  taking over of the Twist ranch with Ennis might have been one way that Jack envisaged the realization of his dream of a sweet life, especially if Mr and Mrs Twist retired somewhere else. It's something that has never occurred to me before but now I see it as a real possibility. However, that "once" from the Final Confrontation  suggests to me that, even if Jack had given this proposal some serious thought, these are thoughts he'd never really conveyed to Ennis.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 04:40 PM by chowhound »

Offline jackster

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2012, 08:23 PM »
Hey CH hope you’re doin’ well –

Some Wyoming geography and other stuff. ‘Bout all we know of the location of the fictional BBM I think is laid-out here in the SS when Ennis goes lookin’ for a postcard at Higgins gift shop:

   "Scene a Brokeback Mountain." (Ennis)

   "Over in Fremont County?" (Linda)

   "No, north a here." (Ennis)


So, north of Fremont County would be either Hot Springs County (unlikely I think, too flat) or Park County or Big Horn County. A good spot to see where these are located and to compare their geography is:

http://geology.com/state-map/wyoming.shtml

Lighting Flat is in Campbell County over in eastern WY and up at the north end of it near the Montana border. Quite a ways from either Park or Big Horn counties. Now, OMT could have been familiar with the territory over there to the west, but he doesn’t seem like the kind who would be reaching out to learn about places that are outside of his world (IMO). So I personally think his reference here a more metaphorical one, equating Brokeback Mountain with a state of debauchery that he felt Jack engaged in there. That seems to me a logical explanation as to why he may have said what he did in the way that he did (e.g. "I know what sin is"). Resentful that Jack wanted his ashes to go there (with it’s evil overtones) rather than the more simple and morally clean family plot. Whata’ you think?

But, you really threw sumthin’ out here that I NEVER thought of and I guess that I need a little explanation for – “his (probably) gay uncle Harold” - In the immortal word of Ennis Del Mar, - huh? What’s the back-story here? I’m dying to know –

(Whoops, forgot about the boy's stop in DuBois (western Fremont County) on the way to Signal at the end of summer '63, this would indicate to me that BBM was likely up in Park County WY, but 'course this ain't definitive)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 05:53 AM by jackster »
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Offline chowhound

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #100 on: May 26, 2012, 03:10 PM »
Hey CH hope you’re doin’ well –

Some Wyoming geography and other stuff. ‘Bout all we know of the location of the fictional BBM I think is laid-out here in the SS when Ennis goes lookin’ for a postcard at Higgins gift shop:

   "Scene a Brokeback Mountain." (Ennis)

   "Over in Fremont County?" (Linda)

   "No, north a here." (Ennis)


So, north of Fremont County would be either Hot Springs County (unlikely I think, too flat) or Park County or Big Horn County. A good spot to see where these are located and to compare their geography is:

http://geology.com/state-map/wyoming.shtml

Lighting Flat is in Campbell County over in eastern WY and up at the north end of it near the Montana border. Quite a ways from either Park or Big Horn counties. Now, OMT could have been familiar with the territory over there to the west, but he doesn’t seem like the kind who would be reaching out to learn about places that are outside of his world (IMO). So I personally think his reference here a more metaphorical one, equating Brokeback Mountain with a state of debauchery that he felt Jack engaged in there. That seems to me a logical explanation as to why he may have said what he did in the way that he did (e.g. "I know what sin is"). Resentful that Jack wanted his ashes to go there (with it’s evil overtones) rather than the more simple and morally clean family plot. Whata’ you think?

But, you really threw sumthin’ out here that I NEVER thought of and I guess that I need a little explanation for – “his (probably) gay uncle Harold” - In the immortal word of Ennis Del Mar, - huh? What’s the back-story here? I’m dying to know –

(Whoops, forgot about the boy's stop in DuBois (western Fremont County) on the way to Signal at the end of summer '63, this would indicate to me that BBM was likely up in Park County WY, but 'course this ain't definitive)



I'm sorry, Jackster, to have been a little playful or mischievous in my last by suggesting that Jack's uncle Harold was "probably gay" without  providing any explanation for such a claim but, even at my age, I like to indulge in a little playfulness from time to time. By the look of it, it certainly caught your attention.

The genesis for this idea came from something an old friend of mine told me some years ago,. This friend is gay, black, from the South (North Carolina) and was born in the late twenties of the last century. When he was in his early teens he was struggling with his own sexual orientation or identity. A discretely gay uncle noticed this, took him under his wing and gave him support and advice. Because of this he believed he became far more settled and confident about the sort of person he was than if this kindly uncle had not intervened when he did.

A number of people have noticed that Jack, compared to Ennis, seems more experienced and comfortable with his sexuality. This made me wonder whether Jack, like my friend, had a gay uncle who had helped him. Of course, Uncle Harold! So that was the start of the gay uncle Harold line.

Of course there's no proof for this but there are a few things which might point in its direction. We know that Jack's mother is aware of a special bond between Jack and his uncle. This is clear from the lengths she goes to in order to tell Jack that his uncle is in hospital and seriously ill. To accomplish this would have involved her in finding out how to contact Aguirre and then persuading him to take the long ride up Brokeback to give the message that, from Aguirre's point of view, is simply a message about one of Jack's relatives.  But from his mother's point of view this wasn't just any relative but Jack's uncle Harold. Jack had to be told about his condition then and there. If she hadn't and uncle Harold had died during the summer, she must have thought that  Jack would be very angry with her because she hadn't even tried to warn him about uncle Harold's condition.

If Harold is Jack's mother's gay brother then it would be one explanation of why she is seemingly so knowledgeable about Jack and Ennis, so understanding and accepting. She is so because she's been there before with her own brother. It may even explain why even OMT finds himself quite comfortable with the idea of Jack and Ennis setting up house together but in his case his concerns are almost exclusively to do with getting the necessary ranch work done.

So that's the story of gay uncle Harold. If you like it and are feeling creative, you can always write it up. I would love to read it.

Thanks for the further information on where Brokeback Mountain might have been and how far that would have been from Lightning Flat. It did occur to me that, as OMT had himself been a successful rodeo rider in his early days he might have come across Brokeback Mountain while traveling on one of the rodeo circuits. Nevertheless, I agree with you that the emphasis given to "know" in "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" - at least in Peter McRobbie's memorable performance - conveys more than just geographical knowledge. He seems almost to "know" what had gone on between Ennis and Jack that summer on Brokeback. But if he does know or suspect, I would be surprised if his knowledge or understanding would be any more than the carnal knowledge Aguirre displays when he mentions "stemming the rose".

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #101 on: May 27, 2012, 02:18 AM »
 (:* :c) You folks sure found a way to pass the time here. Wonderful observations and suppositions. Interesting idea about Uncle Harold. I wonder what Annie say about him.

Old Man Twist knew about Brokeback Mountain and what 'em two were doing up there?!  (t) That's an interesting thought, and explains the kitchen scene a lot.  :s)

The idea of Uncle Harold and Jack's Ma giving Jack more self confidence makes sense, too.

Thanks y'all, for shining light on a movie I thought I knew so well, but hardly know at all, come to think of it. The genius of Annie and Ang, and all the cast and writers and people associated with the movie. It's like a deep well that has unfathomable depth. We can drink from it for years, and still be surprised by the freshness of it.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline jackster

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Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #102 on: May 27, 2012, 06:01 AM »
My dear LC and CH:

Actually the back-story to the Sweet-Life is:

OMT knew about BBM and all it entails and learned about it from Joe Aguirre who he met once when Ma Twist’s brother, Harold, stopped by in '52 and Aguirre was ridin’ shotgun with him. That’s how Jack got a job up there in ’62, Harold and Joe went way back and had been real good buddies during the war. Harold (a confirmed bachelor) came back and got the Forman’s job running an operation up in Worland. Kept in touch with Joe but not close, when his hand KC got married an’ brother Ennis had to leave the bunkhouse, Harold sent ‘em over to Signal thinkin’ he might get a summer job there with Joe.

Harold was always tryin’ to get his dumbass brother in law John to give up ranchin’, old John couldn’t raise a tent pole since he got hit in the head fallin’ off that bull. If OMT was to leave Harold was gonna’ take over the Lightning Flat operation and really build it up. He knew Jack was strong (if a bit a lazy) and could be depended on to help his Uncle Harry (as he called ‘em). Uncle Harry had shared this idea with young Jack once and the kid’s eye’s about popped. He’d not got along with his dad for years, (he was crazy since that fall) but the idea of having his Uncle there and living and working with him sounded like some sweet life. Unfortunately, after Uncle Harry took sick in ’63 he never fully recovered and couldn’t really work hard anymore, but with two young studs to help run the place under his management it oughtta’ work just fine . . . .

Yes, it would be a real Sweet Life, huh?

 "s;"
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #103 on: May 27, 2012, 08:01 AM »
 O0 You bet!  :c)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline chowhound

  • Lureen
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #104 on: May 28, 2012, 03:14 PM »
My dear LC and CH:

Actually the back-story to the Sweet-Life is:

OMT knew about BBM and all it entails and learned about it from Joe Aguirre who he met once when Ma Twist’s brother, Harold, stopped by in '52 and Aguirre was ridin’ shotgun with him. That’s how Jack got a job up there in ’62, Harold and Joe went way back and had been real good buddies during the war. Harold (a confirmed bachelor) came back and got the Forman’s job running an operation up in Worland. Kept in touch with Joe but not close, when his hand KC got married an’ brother Ennis had to leave the bunkhouse, Harold sent ‘em over to Signal thinkin’ he might get a summer job there with Joe.

Harold was always tryin’ to get his dumbass brother in law John to give up ranchin’, old John couldn’t raise a tent pole since he got hit in the head fallin’ off that bull. If OMT was to leave Harold was gonna’ take over the Lightning Flat operation and really build it up. He knew Jack was strong (if a bit a lazy) and could be depended on to help his Uncle Harry (as he called ‘em). Uncle Harry had shared this idea with young Jack once and the kid’s eye’s about popped. He’d not got along with his dad for years, (he was crazy since that fall) but the idea of having his Uncle there and living and working with him sounded like some sweet life. Unfortunately, after Uncle Harry took sick in ’63 he never fully recovered and couldn’t really work hard anymore, but with two young studs to help run the place under his management it oughtta’ work just fine . . . .

Yes, it would be a real Sweet Life, huh?

 "s;"


Ingenious, Jackster, ingenious! But please remember not to send it to AP!

Offline Forever

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 705
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Sweet Life?
« Reply #105 on: Jun 28, 2012, 10:16 AM »
IMHO:

Let's lay off Jack, we can't blame Jack because he married into money. I'm sure his son would have not missed a meal, to assume Jack didn't care about his son, is kind of unfair,  Jack was more real about the situation then Ennis was.

And for goodness sake Riverton, WY. is not the only place in the whole of the US, Ennis could find work,  and to wait until his child support was paid off  to move on with life is kind of silly.   I sure with Jack, no other dependents would have been produced. 

Alma went on with her life, Ennis never did, what does that say.  At every stage of this love affair Ennis found excuses, but never came up with any solutions.  Like he told Jack at the final meeting, "Do you have a better idea?"  Ennis never had a better idea, only excuse.   

It's so true! Ennis never had better ideas, only excuses! But on the other hand I have always wondered why Jack always came back to his lover and for 20 years! The trouble with Jack was his excessive tolerance towards Ennis, too sweet, too lenient! Remember the divorce scene, Jack was broken inside, his heart bled of pain, but what did he say to Ennis? All right, see you next month then!!! He let Ennis treated him like a piece of crap! If I had been him, I would have fought for my love! I would have gave an ultimatum! or Send a letter after this humiliation! Jack was too soft with Ennis! but OK it's just me and my humble opinion!
you have no idea how bad it gets!!!