Topic: The Sweet Life?

[aintfoolin]

This is what Jack wanted and it's what most of us wanted for them, but could this really work? This is speculation but with these two personalities living together ....well I don't know I have some doubts. Jack is outgoing , agressive and willing to take chances. Ennis, Quiet, reserved and so restrained? What would be the glue that really holds this * marriage* together?  Could they trust each other?   What roles would each play? Could Ennis *live* with Jack?  What would happen if Jack's dream came true? Where would they live? and how? These are things Ive thought about often.   It's all speculation, but what if?......

[Twisted]

What would be the glue that really holds this * marriage* together?

Love would be the one what would be holding them together. If Jack would have got Ennis, I think, that it's everything Jack wanted, so there would be trust (no mexico trips or anything else..)

And I think, that Ennis would have grow out of his quietness and eventually settled with Jack to their place, where ever it would have been.

I don't know, hard question..

[tpe]

I think it would work because they are not really in opposition to one another; rather, then are more complementary.  They seem to cover each other's weaknesses, and with both of them combined, I think they are stronger.

I think a lot of good marriages are based on complementarity, and not similarity, no?

[masetane]

Yes, i believe in the opposites attract thing too.

At first I thought they would have had a sweet life but lately I've been thinking I wasn't so sure. I think Ennis was just too uncomfortable with it and terrible memories.  I had thought he was sort of fine the way things were b.c. at least it was something, but when he said he couldn't stand it anymore...I dunno.  I think he would have kept it the same way with Jack but maybe his feelings would open more???  got to think about this one.....

[FlwrChild]

I could actually see them having a good life together. They worked well together that first summer. During the 'fishing trips' throughout the years they seemed to as well. And they genuinely enjoyed each others company. It wasn't just about sex but having a relationship, a friendship. That, and as Twisted said, love would be the glue. I liked what AP said in the short story of their summer together:

They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

[aintfoolin]

Opposites do attract, I agree , but this is Ennis Del Mar scarred and scared with many inner conflicts about who he is, Would Jack fear that Ennis would bolt? Perhaps Ennis would  be thinking on the line of being forced into something he was'nt ready for. Jack would have to convince Ennis somehow that no one was going to come kicking  their door down in the middle of the night, that they were not Earl and Ray. I'd wish him luck doing that, but they did  loved each other. Perhaps in time Ennis would stop wringing his hands and get on with it, but Jack would have to have the patience of Job in my opinion to make this work.He'd waited 20 years and would have to had accomplished a miracle getting Ennis to agree to this so maybe there's hope after all.
 Hopefully the communication would improve, so that that Jack would not have to assume so much about what Ennis is thinking at times. Getting Ennis out of Riverton should be a priority, Maybe Texas?And they did work well together,  Flowerchild, yes indeed. A perfect match they were, so perhaps as in any relationship, or marriage love and alot of hard work will sustain it. They were certainly deserving of it. My opinion.

[LuvJackNasty]

I think they'd have their challenges- namely Ennis getting over the fear that every little noise was the tire irons coming for them. But overall I think it would have worked out for them. They loved each other and at the core of that was friendship. I think it is safe to assume that their meetings over the years were intimate and I mean that more in the sense of emotionally- they enjoyed each others company- that's what kept them both coming back each time knowing yet another painful seperation would soon follow. I agree that Jack would have to have a lot of patience in helping to quell Ennis's fears but I think over time they'd settle in nicely with each other- as others have said- they are complimentary to each other.

[manhattangirl]

if you watched closely Ennis continually depended on what Jack thought.   As long Jack was there Ennis was grounded.   I think if Ennis would have known or realized that Jack was more of stabilizing influence on him then anyone else in his life, and that he was happier, and more at peace with him and at peace with himself.  The "Sweet Life" could have been a real possibility. 

How would they live, or where?  It would have come naturally to them.    IMHO

[tpe]

Yes, i believe in the opposites attract thing too.

At first I thought they would have had a sweet life but lately I've been thinking I wasn't so sure. I think Ennis was just too uncomfortable with it and terrible memories.  I had thought he was sort of fine the way things were b.c. at least it was something, but when he said he couldn't stand it anymore...I dunno.  I think he would have kept it the same way with Jack but maybe his feelings would open more???  got to think about this one.....

Many couples continue to have happy marriages even though they individually have to deal with ghosts from the past or demons that present themselves in later life.   It is a question of whether they are stronger together, rather than apart.  The best partnerships are those that get tested through the fire.  Yes, many fail, but those that survive more than endure and thrive.

[tpe]

Opposites do attract, I agree , but this is Ennis Del Mar scarred and scared with many inner conflicts about who he is, Would Jack fear that Ennis would bolt? Perhaps Ennis would  be thinking on the line of being forced into something he was'nt ready for. Jack would have to convince Ennis somehow that no one was going to come kicking  their door down in the middle of the night, that they were not Earl and Ray. I'd wish him luck doing that, but they did  loved each other. Perhaps in time Ennis would stop wringing his hands and get on with it, but Jack would have to have the patience of Job in my opinion to make this work.He'd waited 20 years and would have to had accomplished a miracle getting Ennis to agree to this so maybe there's hope after all.
 Hopefully the communication would improve, so that that Jack would not have to assume so much about what Ennis is thinking at times. Getting Ennis out of Riverton should be a priority, Maybe Texas?And they did work well together,  Flowerchild, yes indeed. A perfect match they were, so perhaps as in any relationship, or marriage love and alot of hard work will sustain it. They were certainly deserving of it. My opinion.

I don't think Jack tried to coerce Ennis into anything.  He was almost too gracious.  He knew that if were to hold on to Ennis, it would not be by coercion. 

As I said in my previous post, many relationships become stronger because of the scars they have to bear.  Such relationships can only get stronger, if they survive.  Some do, so it is not too much to think that Ennis's and Jack's would have worked.

[welshwitch]

Yes, I agree, they went through so much together and surely being together, whatever the problems, would have been better than being apart.

[tpe]

Yes, I agree, they went through so much together and surely being together, whatever the problems, would have been better than being apart.

The risk would have been worth it, no?  I think this was what Jack wanted Ennis to realize, and Ennis realized it too late.

There seems to be a parallel with Ennis realizing that he loved Jack after the 4 years separation before the reunion, and Ennis realizing what he had lost after Jack had died. 

 

[FlwrChild]

They were both milestones, jolts of recognition. But whereas after Jack died, he realized he loved him, I think at the time of the reunion, he realized he was still drawn to Jack, still needed him. But did not perhaps understand yet that this was genuine love.

Though I have to wonder, Earl and Rich aside, if Ennis weren't married with children at the time of the reunion, might he have been somewhat more inclined to take some kind of a chance with Jack?

Don't know, just rambling.

[welshwitch]

I'm not sure - tend to think Alma and the girls were a convenient excuse but if they hadn't existed he'd have found something else, maybe the attitudes of people around him. Earl and Rich were there in the back of his mind - that's  how he saw any attempt at achieving a sweet life with Jack ending up and nothing could make him think any differently.

[aintfoolin]

 There's an old saying, Time heals all wounds. Could this apply to Ennis and Jack? Jack needed a miracle, to get Ennis to the point of givin it a shot. Once he got over that hump the rest is dependent on how bad they want . We know Jack does and I think Ennis does too, but Ennis would be like that lion in Wizard of Oz asking the wizard for some courage!!! ...Shaky. LOL.

[jackster]

Once he got over that hump the rest is dependent on how bad they want it.

Definitely. If they could have held on until Ennis was "free", his daughters grown and child support ended - And if Jack coulda' figured some way to get Ennis outta' there with some slight financial support that didn't come off as charity, I think Ennis would have lightened up on his responsibility role that I feel burdened him considerably, limiting his geographic and economic flexibility. I think it could have been really great at that point. I don't believe Jack fully grasp how seriously Ennis took his role as father, Jack's idea of "gettin' lost" from his family seems to indicate he had a different view of these ties.

[manhattangirl]

"Mexico, hell Jack the travalin I ever done was round a coffee pot looking for the handle."  Oh yeah Ennis would have pack his bags, the minute he sent the last child support check in.   

[jackster]

Why not? Once his "job" of providing for the only other people he loved was done, there'd be no reason not to. You can say, well why didn't he do it before, but that's assuming that he had the same disdain for his children that Jack did.

[manhattangirl]

IMHO:

Let's lay off Jack, we can't blame Jack because he married into money. I'm sure his son would have not missed a meal, to assume Jack didn't care about his son, is kind of unfair,  Jack was more real about the situation then Ennis was.

And for goodness sake Riverton, WY. is not the only place in the whole of the US, Ennis could find work,  and to wait until his child support was paid off  to move on with life is kind of silly.   I sure with Jack, no other dependents would have been produced. 

Alma went on with her life, Ennis never did, what does that say.  At every stage of this love affair Ennis found excuses, but never came up with any solutions.  Like he told Jack at the final meeting, "Do you have a better idea?"  Ennis never had a better idea, only excuse.   

[welshwitch]

And Jack's response, "I did once," suggests that his idea of the ranch has now been allowed to drift into the past - he clearly isn't thinking in those terms after all these years. Realistically they're 39 now - not the best of times to start up something which would have been massively easier when they were 23, after the reunion, and when LD was hoping to get rid of Jack, who wasn't then so embedded in the structure of the family business.

[jackster]

"Listen. I'm thinkin, tell you what, if you and me had a little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life. . . . . I got it figured, got this plan Ennis, how we can do it, you and me. Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a bunch if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it _ "

"Whoa, whoa, whoa. It ain't goin a be that way. We can't. I'm stuck with what I got, caught in my own loop. Can't get out of it.”

All I’m sayin’ is Jack had one plan in ‘67, it involved him getting some “payout” money and “gettin’ lost”, (doesn’t sound like a very dedicated father) but nonetheless, I think it give us an insight to his feelings regarding his “family”. Ennis made it clear at that time he wasn’t going to do that, felt he was caught in his loop, I interpret this “loop” as his family. To him working hundreds of miles away from his daughters was not a viable option, some (including maybe Jack) see this as an “excuse” which implies fault, I see it as a reason - I can’t blame him for choosing this. I don’t think Jack, who was already willing to split from his family, “got it” i.e. understood Ennis’s dedication here. I believe Ennis’s family ties were key to AP creating Ennis as something of an orphan.

The post divorce reunion made it clear again that Ennis was still dedicated to his daughters and wanted to be near them. He hadn’t been with them for over two months, yet Jack takes off clearly thinking Ennis doesn’t love him. Later, his snide remark to Jack about “adopting the girls” when Jack suggests Ennis move to Texas reinforces the fact that Ennis is still tied to his daughters and Jack still doesn’t get it. (not good communicating skills on either part in these scenes).

This dichotomy follows us through the film until their last scene when Ennis is STILL dedicated to his daughters, but Jack doesn’t see why he can’t quit his job to get away in August. To me this is a critical difference in these two men, the way they see their blood family, it pervades the film and creates a substantial amount of the tension we see.

But, I don’t see anything in the story to indicate Ennis would not move on once he felt his family obligations with his daughters were substantially complete. He went to Worland with his brother to get a job, he went to Signal in ’63 to find work, he later went to Riverton with Alma. I don’t think he liked traveling for recreation (re: the Mexico comment) but I see nothing to indicate he wouldn’t go someplace if he was able and there was a purpose (i.e. life with Jack). Just MHO.

jackster

[jackster]

Realistically they're 39 now - not the best of times to start up something which would have been massively easier when they were 23

So life with Randall probably wouldn't have worked either 

[LuvJackNasty]

In my earliest viewings of the film the one thing I didn't like was that Jack was willing to leave Bobby. However that feeling was short lived. I believe what pushed him to seek out Ennis again was the scene after Bobby was first born where he was treated like a piece of crap by his in-laws. I don't blame him for wanting to escape that life considering LD was basically telling him to get lost. The Thanksgiving scene shows that Jack was trying to teach his son to respect his mother with the whole tv incident- yes it turned into a power play with LD but at first he was doing it to support Lureen. In the SS it says that he was worried about Bobby's learning disablility while Lureen pretended it away- she has the money and called the shots. Jack could have left his son at anytime if the money was that enticing to him- yet he stayed- he could have taken the money and run- no looking back, no responsibility but to me, none of that mattered without Ennis. For someone who "Didn't want none a either kind" he stayed.

The whole thing about Ennis bringing up the child support at that late stage always mystified me- He had child support payments since 1975 and yet still met Jack and I think it's safe to assume gave up jobs etc in all of those years. So why all of the sudden? I have no doubt Ennis loved his girls and did want to do right by them but at that particular point it just seemed like an excuse, IMO

WW- I had the same feeling about the I did once on my last viewing of that scene. That he was perhaps no longer offering that sweet life. I think that's what prompted Ennis to finally get in his face because Jack is implying that it's in the past.

[FlwrChild]

I also have to point out a couple of differences between the SS and the movie.

I found it interesting that Ennis was portrayed in the SS as being a little more expressive with Jack than in the movie and a little more affectionate about his girls in the movie than in the book.

From the SS, after the Thanksgiving scene:

He didn't try to see his girls for a long time, figuring they would look him up when they got the sense and years to move out from Alma.

So I still see his reasons for putting Jack off all that time to be more about his own fears and self-denial than his responsibility to his children. Which is not to discount his love for them. Just my impression.

[manhattangirl]

Jackster,

Then the ending of the film was totally justified with Ennis spending the rest of his life mourning and honoring Jack's memory.

IMO:   

Ennis's will prevailed, never mind the fear of a life with Jack, that's pretty much a moot point, his obligations then as father and his commitment to that, even though, he unwillingness to have his children totally in his life, Alma, Jr wanting to move in, and his refusal, why he had to "work", and wouldn't be around much."  the real reason, to be with Jack.   

Did he love Jack enough,  was his obligations all consuming to him, did he want his growing isolation more?   was his fear of his own sexuality was still something he hadn't or unwilling to deal with.  Ennis to me was like a chameleon, changing with any situation.   Jack stays steadfast in his love for Ennis, and on Ennis' terms, which he pretty much lived with to be with him, until he died never realizing his own dream.   

Ennis got what he wanted.    There's no tragedy here. Except may for Jack unrealized dreams, a love not honored till after his death.    The one clear opposing force to Ennis's changeable reasons in what made up his life was Jack love for Ennis, his love, that was the force that was defeated in the end. 

[tpe]

They were both milestones, jolts of recognition. But whereas after Jack died, he realized he loved him, I think at the time of the reunion, he realized he was still drawn to Jack, still needed him. But did not perhaps understand yet that this was genuine love.

Though I have to wonder, Earl and Rich aside, if Ennis weren't married with children at the time of the reunion, might he have been somewhat more inclined to take some kind of a chance with Jack?

Don't know, just rambling.

I think it would have been easier if Ennis would not have married.  IO think it was this that set things in motion so as to be irreversible.  Not that it sealed their fates in and of itself.  But I think it set them on a pattern wherein they could not advance to the next step.

[tpe]

I'm not sure - tend to think Alma and the girls were a convenient excuse but if they hadn't existed he'd have found something else, maybe the attitudes of people around him. Earl and Rich were there in the back of his mind - that's  how he saw any attempt at achieving a sweet life with Jack ending up and nothing could make him think any differently.

Good point.  I was about to raise this in my last post.  Still, I can't help that the marriage gave Ennis a "convenient excuse", if I can put it this way.  I guess this is unfair.  Even if Ennis would have found other things to justify their not being together, I think that the marriage only made things harder for both of them to consider a step towards a life together.

[tpe]

In my earliest viewings of the film the one thing I didn't like was that Jack was willing to leave Bobby. However that feeling was short lived. I believe what pushed him to seek out Ennis again was the scene after Bobby was first born where he was treated like a piece of crap by his in-laws. I don't blame him for wanting to escape that life considering LD was basically telling him to get lost. The Thanksgiving scene shows that Jack was trying to teach his son to respect his mother with the whole tv incident- yes it turned into a power play with LD but at first he was doing it to support Lureen. In the SS it says that he was worried about Bobby's learning disablility while Lureen pretended it away- she has the money and called the shots. Jack could have left his son at anytime if the money was that enticing to him- yet he stayed- he could have taken the money and run- no looking back, no responsibility but to me, none of that mattered without Ennis. For someone who "Didn't want none a either kind" he stayed.

The whole thing about Ennis bringing up the child support at that late stage always mystified me- He had child support payments since 1975 and yet still met Jack and I think it's safe to assume gave up jobs etc in all of those years. So why all of the sudden? I have no doubt Ennis loved his girls and did want to do right by them but at that particular point it just seemed like an excuse, IMO

WW- I had the same feeling about the I did once on my last viewing of that scene. That he was perhaps no longer offering that sweet life. I think that's what prompted Ennis to finally get in his face because Jack is implying that it's in the past.

It is rather mystifying.  Even the excuses given if the last meeting...  I know that they were somehow valid and that Ennis certainly had a more difficult time than Jack making ends meet, but I still find it difficult to fathom why Ennis would willfully be the biggest impediment to his own happiness.

[lamusica]

Sometimes it is just easier to stick with what you know that to strike out into the unknown.  Maybe that's how Ennis felt.  He wasn't happy with things the way they were, but at least he knew his place in that world.  Striking out with Jack was an unknown -- where would they wind up; how would they be together all the time; what would society's reaction be?  etc.

[Bob]

Opposites do attract, which they were, but - they also have to have something in common - which they did, would they have been able to be together - I think so, but I also think that Ennis would have had to move beyond his fears - also, Jack was a lot more outgoing than Ennis - I think he'd have to learn to enjoy the "silence" once in awhile - they would surely have had several "bumps" in the road - hopefully they'd be able to work them out - after all - they were together for nearly twenty so there must have been more there than just the sex.  Just my opinion.