Topic: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?

[tpe]

This is indeed an interesting thread that generated a lot of insight into the depth of their relationship.

First of all, I agree with you that Ennis would blame himself, which is natural in any death, especially in so intimately related to their last meeting.  I don't think Jack died because of Ennis, but Ennis might feel differently.

Secondly, I agree that Jack resigned to moving on not because he needed excitement from elsewhere, nor because he no long loves Ennis. As you said, Ennis told Jack at the last meeting that he can't take this any more. That this ride is over, he is down. Jack may be able to do the long distance love affair, but it's hurting Ennis, and Jack did not want to hurt Ennis, not even at the price of their meetings. It showed Jack's love is certainly sacrificial; he would do anything for Ennis, before Ennis asked him.

You say this beautifully, lancecowboy2007.

And Finally, I don't agree about taking risk. They journey that Ennis struggled with is not about risk anything. There is no risk to be in Jack's arms. The issue, IMO, is integrity. Ennis should have called off the engagement with Elma or at least postpone it. He counted on "lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from evil" to continue in a normal life. That was his first mistake, denying his true feelings. His second mistake was lying to Elma. I thought the sound track was a masterpiece. Just as Ennis told Elma his first lie about Jack, the guitar sounded a brief but dissonant chord that reverberated. Part of what destroyed the marriage was the lies that Elma perceived, as seen in the dish washing scene one thanksgiving. And finally, after the divorce, he could be more open and honest with Jack, and share his feelings. Jack went to Mexico because he thought Ennis did not return his love.

Even Jack, the master communicator, was made mute in crucial moments and not able to tell Ennis what Ennis needed to hear. Like when Ennis asked Jack if he had a better idea. Instead of venting his frustration and anger, that would be the perfect moment to offer the ranch idea again, and explain about his family's ranch in lightening flat, not Texas. Ennis' affection are stable and eternal, and he could not bear to leave his children. Texas was not for him, but a family ranch, that's what Ennis would crave, being denied that from his childhood. If anything, I would love to see an alternate ending to the film, at this pivotal moment, with Ennis and Jack living happily ever after in Lightening Flat.

I can see your point of view, especially on the issue of Ennis and integrity.  Ennis is at times obessed with integrity, and perhaps this is the thread that brings him to the final terrible loss. It reminds of the way the gods punish mortals by the very traits on which they set the greatest store -- as in the Bacchae of Euripides, where Dionysos lead Pentheus to his doom.

[jessi]

Very interesting exchanges here.

Personally, I think Jack understood Ennis enough not to blame him.  In the end, I felt Jack was resigned to moving on, not because he had grown to hate Ennis, but because he realized that trying to move him only hurt Ennis all te more. 

As far as Ennis is concerned, I have no doubt that he blamed himself to a great extent for Jack's death.  It does not really matter if this is true or not -- Ennis felt some responsibility to Jack, especially in the light of his expereince with Earl and Rich.

If there is anything to blame on Ennis, it is not having seized the chance of a lifetime.  Perhaps Jack was fated to die because of his willingness to take risks.  IMO, Ennis should have taken that risk.  Life is only worth living for certain things.  To rject these is to ensure a living death.

Coming into everything late, lol, I finally have a little time to read and maybe post, but I got to know up front, do most of you believe the meeting/love affair was over after the last encounter and that Jack was murdered.  Save me lots of frustration to understand where you guys are coming from up front. Thanks, jessi.

[tpe]

Coming into everything late, lol, I finally have a little time to read and maybe post, but I got to know up front, do most of you believe the meeting/love affair was over after the last encounter and that Jack was murdered.  Save me lots of frustration to understand where you guys are coming from up front. Thanks, jessi.

Hello jessi! 

Truthfully, I go back and forth on this one.  I admit that I am influenced by Gyllenhaal's comment in an interview where he said that Ennis was more faithful because Jack was at the point of moving on in the end.  But it is really hard to say, no? 

As to whether Jack was truly murdered, there is enough ambiguity here.  The short story certainly does not say that this was true outright.  In the mind of Ennis, at least, Jack was murdered.  But was it murder in real life?  This is an open issue.  But I have talked with some people involved in film who said that they would not have shown the murder scene the way it was shown in the movie if they didn't want the audience to think that Jack was indeed murdered.

 

[jessi]

I know the writers and ang lee all deny that but it seems that it went against what annie said.  She never blinked, said it was an accident, graphically and chillingly pointed out how ennis heard that rim crack into bone and the sound it made rolling hollow away, then the murder very much being in his mind. He had to work at convincing himself that it happened that way, how else could he go on living.  In the script it is written as a vision, not flashback, but many see it as a reality of the movie, never intended to be so in the book. why.  why, well all I can come up with, the only reason I can get that ang lee would want to manipulate us to believing that is gays gotta pay.  I've listened to the writers, talked to them even and asked this, I was told they never intended on swaying the audience like that.  I assume then it was ang lee.  It doesn't bother me that others see it as murder but it does that they were delibertly led by the movie to see that.  Yeah, I'm strange I know. lol

jessi

Hello jessi! 

Truthfully, I go back and forth on this one.  I admit that I am influenced by Gyllenhaal's comment in an interview where he said that Ennis was more faithful because Jack was at the point of moving on in the end.  But it is really hard to say, no? 

As to whether Jack was truly murdered, there is enough ambiguity here.  The short story certainly does not say that this was true outright.  In the mind of Ennis, at least, Jack was murdered.  But was it murder in real life?  This is an open issue.  But I have talked with some people involved in film who said that they would not have shown the murder scene the way it was shown in the movie if they didn't want the audience to think that Jack was indeed murdered.

 

[LuvJackNasty]

Coming into everything late, lol, I finally have a little time to read and maybe post, but I got to know up front, do most of you believe the meeting/love affair was over after the last encounter and that Jack was murdered.  Save me lots of frustration to understand where you guys are coming from up front. Thanks, jessi.

I don't think it was over after that last meeting. I do believe that something died in Jack seeing Ennis break down and unleashing all of that frustration, but there is that whole nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Had Jack not died, I think he would have met up with Ennis but I think that the last meeting would have been a turning point one way or the other in that Jack would have forced Ennis's hand about the relationship. But that's just take on it.

I believe he was murdered. It was my first impression and I can't shake that. I want to believe that it was an accident because that would be a lot easier on me but I can't seem to make my mind go there. There is also the part in the SS where Ennis is at the Twist ranch and it says "So now he knew it was the tire iron". But as with everything that's subject to one's interpretation and is by no means a confirmation one way or the other. I kind of like the ambiguity because it puts us in Ennis's shoes not knowing the truth. Be it murder or an accident, at the end of the day- Jack is dead and that is what rips my heart to shreds.  :\'(

[jessi]

I don't think it was over after that last meeting. I do believe that something died in Jack seeing Ennis break down and unleashing all of that frustration, but there is that whole nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Had Jack not died, I think he would have met up with Ennis but I think that the last meeting would have been a turning n it.

point one way or the other in that Jack would have forced Ennis's hand about the relationship. But that's just take o
I believe he was murdered. It was my first impression and I can't shake that. I want to believe that it was an accident because that would be a lot easier on me but I can't seem to make my mind go there. There is also the part in the SS where Ennis is at the Twist ranch and it says "So now he knew it was the tire iron". But as with everything that's subject to one's interpretation and is by no means a confirmation one way or the other. I kind of like the ambiguity because it puts us in Ennis's shoes not knowing the truth. Be it murder or an accident, at the end of the day- Jack is dead and that is what rips my heart to shreds.  :\'(

I believe, and she said, nothing much changed, went back nearly as it had been, so they would have met.

I do think when she said he knew she just meant that ennis now had become convinced that it was the tire iron.  She's already said it was an accident and his first thought was how that accident sounded and felt, but he needed to believe it was murder and started convincing himself of that.  Only he knew because that's what he had always had in his mind would happen. 

What a great observation, the ambiguity that can put many into Ennis' shoes, not knowing.  I'll think on it and hope that is why ang lee filmed it that way.  Great post, thanks.

jessi

[lancecowboy]

I don't think it was over after that last meeting. I do believe that something died in Jack seeing Ennis break down and unleashing all of that frustration, but there is that whole nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Had Jack not died, I think he would have met up with Ennis but I think that the last meeting would have been a turning point one way or the other in that Jack would have forced Ennis's hand about the relationship. But that's just take on it.

I believe he was murdered. It was my first impression and I can't shake that. I want to believe that it was an accident because that would be a lot easier on me but I can't seem to make my mind go there. There is also the part in the SS where Ennis is at the Twist ranch and it says "So now he knew it was the tire iron". But as with everything that's subject to one's interpretation and is by no means a confirmation one way or the other. I kind of like the ambiguity because it puts us in Ennis's shoes not knowing the truth. Be it murder or an accident, at the end of the day- Jack is dead and that is what rips my heart to shreds.  :\'(

I am with you, LuvJackNasty. Sometimes couples in a relationship grow apart or mature together. I think their last scene was a turning point, and it could have gone either way, with Ennis not being able to continue, as evident by his sitting alone, yet content, eating his apple pie. Ennis, we need to remember, grew up lonely and I feel that it is his natural state, when left alone. It is why Jack had such an impact on him. Jack on the other hand loved Ennis, and given half a hint of being together, always, would redline back all the way. If he received the card from Ennis to meet in November, he would be there. No doubt in my mind. And their meeting will be as passionate and loving as ever. And I think the conversation will eventually lead to, what are we going to do now. At this point, I believe Jack will propose again, and Ennis will now be free, materially and emotionally, to accept.

I am glad the movie left the cause of death ambiguous. Reality, as you said, is often uncertain. Dealing with uncertainty is just a way of life. We are often spoiled with artificial certainty, boundaries that serve no purpose. The ambiguity in this case, serves to highlight Ennis' emotional response much more than a certain murder or a definitive accident. In any case, as you said, it is not the cause, but the death, which is tragic, which caused so much pain in so many around the world. And yet, it is also the resolution of this death, through the sequence of Ennis' search for answers, for closure, that brought at least this one cowboy some peace. I am forever grateful to everyone in the making of the movie. You all have no idea what you have done.

[tpe]

I believe, and she said, nothing much changed, went back nearly as it had been, so they would have met.

I do think when she said he knew she just meant that ennis now had become convinced that it was the tire iron.  She's already said it was an accident and his first thought was how that accident sounded and felt, but he needed to believe it was murder and started convincing himself of that.  Only he knew because that's what he had always had in his mind would happen. 

What a great observation, the ambiguity that can put many into Ennis' shoes, not knowing.  I'll think on it and hope that is why ang lee filmed it that way.  Great post, thanks.

jessi

Here is the quote.  Note the use of the word "almost":

“Jesus,” said Jack. “Ennis?” But before he was out of the truck, trying to guess if it was a heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis was back on his feet, and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.


This, together with the last sentance (Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved) can suggest either 2 things:  stable or unstable equilibrium.  To perturb a marble sitting in a bowl will bring that marble back to stable equilibrium, whereas to push a marble at the edge of a precipice will result in drastic change, no matter how small the push.

In other words, I think it was Proulx's intention to leave ALL possibilities open.  That is a major part of the tug and pull of the short story -- indeed, that is what makes it so great.  We can each reach our own conclusions, of course.  The movie makers may have made their own, in the sense that they suggested cinematically that Jack was indeed murdered, although even the movie leaves some ambiguity intact.

I think that it is telling that Proulx raised no objections in the interpretation posed by the movie makers.  In her essay, she notes that her main objection was the slight tampering of the time sequence in the Reunion scenes.  Else, she did not voice any objection to how the murder was suggested cinematically. 

This could mean that she herself perhaps agreed with the movie makers -- that perhaps it was indeed murder.  But we shall never know, because I doubt that she would admit anything even if we asked her.  She is wiser than to say this or that...