Topic: Let's get physical: Ennis's fights

[ksxks]

I think there was a degree of love-hate, but I think it was also about Ennis somehow feeling that he was held captive by his love for Jack.  I don't think he really openly resented it, but I suspect that he did try to repress it as much as he could.  Sure, his inability to meet more often in the later years was because of tightening financial/work-related reasons, but I cannot help but think that he also preferred it this way in order to "get away from himself", so to speak.  In a way, Jack embodied "himself" is a very deep sense.

What a complex man is Ennis -- complex, yet his feelings are actually so simple and basic.  Simple, but so against what he was prepared for since early on.  I like what you say, tpe, about Jack embodying Ennis himself -- Jack representing everything inside Ennis that he hated yet somehow let him feel love at the same time.  And also, manhattangirl, your comment about Ennis separating himself from Jack with the "boys like you" comment -- not that he did not love a man like Jack did, but that Jack accepted it about himself.

Can you imagine two men like Ennis together?  Never work.  Two men like Jack together, though...

kathy

[ksxks]

Great posts, all of you.  A most interesting subject, Ennis and his physicalness.  Talking here about his anger and pent-up rages, but we've talked in other threads about how he also expresses himself physically in other ways, physically rather than in words.  All the ways he wants to please Jack, for instance.

Also I love the idea that Ennis's raging against Alma and the truck driver, for example, being his way of protecting Jack's "honor," defending what he and Jack had.

Thinking about Ennis and his sad challenges -- his having basically raised himself, I think it was tpe said.  And tpe, I loved what you said about Jack not being afraid of Ennis's physicality.  That's something that drew me to these two together from the first viewing.  Not to say Ennis's psychoemotional state was healthy, but Jack knew how to deal with it, as opposed to Alma, who could never be really comfortable with or trusting of him.

kathy

[tpe]

Great posts, all of you.  A most interesting subject, Ennis and his physicalness.  Talking here about his anger and pent-up rages, but we've talked in other threads about how he also expresses himself physically in other ways, physically rather than in words.  All the ways he wants to please Jack, for instance.

Also I love the idea that Ennis's raging against Alma and the truck driver, for example, being his way of protecting Jack's "honor," defending what he and Jack had.

Thinking about Ennis and his sad challenges -- his having basically raised himself, I think it was tpe said.  And tpe, I loved what you said about Jack not being afraid of Ennis's physicality.  That's something that drew me to these two together from the first viewing.  Not to say Ennis's psychoemotional state was healthy, but Jack knew how to deal with it, as opposed to Alma, who could never be really comfortable with or trusting of him.

kathy

Thanks kathy.  I think that was what distinguished Jack and Alma: Jack was willing to engage Ennis, even on the physical level, if need be.  Alma hid everything she knew deep within her, and she must have suffered a great deal because of this.

Alma was certainly afraid of Ennis, to a certain level, no?  I recall the comment in the screenplay where Alma is taken completely by surprise with Ennis's rage in the July 4 scene.  I think the implication was that she had never known this side of Ennis before, and that she feared it.  It was probably part of the reason why she kept things to herself, no?

[aintfoolin]

It must have shocked her. I think she was afraid of him too. In the grocery store scene Alma asks " what about my job?" The look he gave her spoke volumes and of course has to take the girls off his hands. And again when he demanded she stay home and serve dinner.... !!!

[tpe]

It must have shocked her. I think she was afraid of him too. In the grocery store scene Alma asks " what about my job?" The look he gave her spoke volumes and of course has to take the girls off his hands. And again when he demanded she stay home and serve dinner.... !!!

Yes, I think that look he gave her at the grocery did scare her.  But it seems that she lost a bit of her fear after the reunion, as is evident in the "supper's on the stove" scene.  But she certainly was still inwardly in fear of him: witness Alma quickly returning Jack's postcard in the stack of new mail when she heard Ennis's truck pulling in the driveway.

With Jack, it certainly wasn't fear that kept him from repeating the way he felt for Ennis and his desire to be together.

[ksxks]

Thanks kathy.  I think that was what distinguished Jack and Alma: Jack was willing to engage Ennis, even on the physical level, if need be.  Alma hid everything she knew deep within her, and she must have suffered a great deal because of this.

Alma was certainly afraid of Ennis, to a certain level, no?  I recall the comment in the screenplay where Alma is taken completely by surprise with Ennis's rage in the July 4 scene.  I think the implication was that she had never known this side of Ennis before, and that she feared it.  It was probably part of the reason why she kept things to herself, no?

Yes, that is so sad, that Alma kept things to herself out of fear of Ennis.  But unfortunately, that is the way of things as often as not.  This is why some people might have an idealized view of same-sex relationships -- that those kinds of games and dynamics don't go on.  However, they do go on.  But that's not exactly on this topic.  Or maybe it is.  Which I was just talking about in the "dominance" thread.  How Jack has absolutely no fear of Ennis's anger or rage or violence.  I wish Jack had some more of the same himself!  He finally did at the end, and things would finally have changed I think, after Jack let Ennis know he didn't want to take it anymore...and Ennis couldn't stand it anymore...and it just breaks my heart that they didn't get to find out how they might have finally come together.

More on this later I think.  Gotta go.

kathy

[tpe]

Yes, that is so sad, that Alma kept things to herself out of fear of Ennis.  But unfortunately, that is the way of things as often as not.  This is why some people might have an idealized view of same-sex relationships -- that those kinds of games and dynamics don't go on.  However, they do go on.  But that's not exactly on this topic.  Or maybe it is.  Which I was just talking about in the "dominance" thread.  How Jack has absolutely no fear of Ennis's anger or rage or violence.  I wish Jack had some more of the same himself!  He finally did at the end, and things would finally have changed I think, after Jack let Ennis know he didn't want to take it anymore...and Ennis couldn't stand it anymore...and it just breaks my heart that they didn't get to find out how they might have finally come together.

More on this later I think.  Gotta go.

kathy

They indeed go on in same-sex relationships.

And yes, perhaps Jack should have had a bit more of the Anger that Ennis seemed to thrive on.  But the power of Jack's pent-up anger and frustration,    finally realized in the last meeting, did seem to overpower Ennis.  I think it was because a righteous anger -- and anger Ennis recognized to be rooted in a valid sense of hurt and deprivation.  Ennis broke down because he knew that Jack's anger in that last meeting was grounded on truth, and the truth can kill as much as it can set you free.

 

[aintfoolin]

 Jack being another man was not intimidated by Ennis's rages. He was more equal physcally to Ennis and more importantly stronger in a mental  and emotional sense. He could probably hold his own if it came down to a knock-down drag out fight and go toe to toe with Ennis, but unlike Alma his fear came more from an emotional stand point for the most part  IMO.  His fear was loosing Ennis if he came on too strong.  Not to take anything away from her undeserved suffering, Alma saw futility and  finally moved on, Jack saw futility and hung around for 20 years in spite of it. at the same time juggling a failed marriage to Lureen in the process. Had he not understood Ennis's mindset when he got punched himself things may have had a different outcome before he left the mountain. Ennis would have sported a black eye too. Jack was'nt no slouch or wimp physically. far from it. The wrestling scene was evidence of that IMO.  Anyway , self- discipline was not a priority in moments of threatened manhood for Ennis. Once he got pumped up, he was on a mission.  talking him down? ....Forget about it. My thinkin.

[tpe]

Jack being another man was not intimidated by Ennis's rages. He was more equal physcally to Ennis and more importantly stronger in a mental  and emotional sense. He could probably hold his own if it came down to a knock-down drag out fight and go toe to toe with Ennis, but unlike Alma his fear came more from an emotional stand point for the most part  IMO.  His fear was loosing Ennis if he came on too strong.  Not to take anything away from her undeserved suffering, Alma saw futility and  finally moved on, Jack saw futility and hung around for 20 years in spite of it. at the same time juggling a failed marriage to Lureen in the process. Had he not understood Ennis's mindset when he got punched himself things may have had a different outcome before he left the mountain. Ennis would have sported a black eye too. Jack was'nt no slouch or wimp physically. far from it. The wrestling scene was evidence of that IMO.  Anyway , self- discipline was not a priority in moments of threatened manhood for Ennis. Once he got pumped up, he was on a mission.  talking him down? ....Forget about it. My thinkin.

Precisely.  In many ways, Jack was better positioned to deal with Ennis's rages on his own terms, although he opted not to be confrontational out of love. Remember the scene where Jack tries to make Ennis think about moving away and is rebuffed?  Ennis would have proabably been in a rage if he were in Jack's position, but Jack just chose to walk away...

Alam's is a totally different affair.  I think she was initially not in a position to deal with such rages.  Remember the Thanksgiving confrontation?  There was fear and anger in her face when she threatened to call Monroe.  Even when she was married to someone else, she still feared Ennis...

[manhattangirl]

Precisely.  In many ways, Jack was better positioned to deal with Ennis's rages on his own terms, although he opted not to be confrontational out of love. Remember the scene where Jack tries to make Ennis think about moving away and is rebuffed?  Ennis would have proabably been in a rage if he were in Jack's position, but Jack just chose to walk away...

Alam's is a totally different affair.  I think she was initially not in a position to deal with such rages.  Remember the Thanksgiving confrontation?  There was fear and anger in her face when she threatened to call Monroe.  Even when she was married to someone else, she still feared Ennis...

I agree with you tpe,

I also remember the scene at the fireworks, Alma was more afraid of Ennis then the two jerks he punched out.  Jack could deal with Ennis.  That punch at the end of the first summer taught Jack a lot, so in a way at any given moment he knew Ennis could lash out.   The final confrontation Jack was prepared for anything, but he said what he had to.  He looked Ennis in the eye, and even after the threat, Jack still told Ennis how he felt, but what did Ennis do he broke down. 

Jack was Ennis's heart, I don't think was any way he would have hurt him, he would have hurt himself first, and often times did when it came to Jack. 

[welshwitch]

Ennis is frightening because he is strong but, when in a rage, uncontrolled. That in turn comes from the fact that he can't articulate his emotions and in any case where Jack is concerned feels he has to repress them. Eventually the pressure builds, the seal gives way, and the volcano erupts. That's why he attacked Jack before they left Brokeback, why he goes for the two bikers and the man outside the bar. It's interesting that in the final confrontation scene he tries to explain himself for the first time; it's also the first time he doesn't lash out but collapses in tears.

[aintfoolin]

 I think Jack knew Ennis very well . He was'nt scared of Ennis's threat. in fact he simply called Ennis's bluff. Ennis was puttin on the tough act gettin in Jacks face talking about death threats and so forth But Jack never flinched. He just shook his head and laid Ennis out, not with fists but with words. He showed Ennis that he was partly responsible for "all them things" including the Mexican  trip debaucle. Jack meant business when he told Ennis " try this one, and I'll say it one time" He brought Ennis back into reality with his words, a display of Jack's strenghth and physical self-disciline.  could a punched Ennis and got him to back up  but he did'nt. Wasn't gonna be pushed around either. He got his point across and I did'nt hear Ennis denying anything after that. No arguement there. what the hell could he say at that point ?  He knew Jack was right though he did try to explain  his sacrifices through the years by saying It's cause a you I'm like this, nothin and nowhere"  Sounds like blame to me. He was mad about gettin exposed like this , shoving Jack away , then just dissolved into tears. Jack was mad about having been put in this position to say those words. Ennis really could'nt take it .Was it really Jack's fault? What about Jack's sacrifices?  No I  don't think so , IMO  At least Jack had a plan , a good one that would benefit them both. Him and Ennis could have been sittin pretty. Ennis had no one to blame for his circumstances but himself. Jack said it and I agree with him. Ennis felt action spoke louder than words but in this case a little more action from Ennis was due Jack. I must point out this scene was excellently acted out  by Jake and Heath. Thumbs up to both.  Rant over.

[ksxks]

Ennis is frightening because he is strong but, when in a rage, uncontrolled. That in turn comes from the fact that he can't articulate his emotions and in any case where Jack is concerned feels he has to repress them. Eventually the pressure builds, the seal gives way, and the volcano erupts. That's why he attacked Jack before they left Brokeback, why he goes for the two bikers and the man outside the bar. It's interesting that in the final confrontation scene he tries to explain himself for the first time; it's also the first time he doesn't lash out but collapses in tears.

So true, WW.  And everything you said also, aintfoolin.  That was so powerful, that confrontation, the way Jack worked Ennis finally -- as you said, with words Ennis couldn't deny.  So that finally Ennis was coming from the truth inside himself and not acting it out in his old ways.  This truly could have been the turning point for them, if only...

kathy

[jackster]

I think Jack knew Ennis very well. He wasn't scared of Ennis's threat, in fact he simply called Ennis's bluff. Ennis was puttin on the tough act gettin in Jacks face talking about death threats and so forth But Jack never flinched. He just shook his head and laid Ennis out, not with fists but with words. He showed Ennis that he was partly responsible for "all them things" including the Mexican trip debaucle. Jack meant business when he told Ennis "try this one, and I'll say it one time" He brought Ennis back into reality with his words, a display of Jack's strenghth and physical self-disciline,  could a punched Ennis and got him to back up but he didn't. Wasn't gonna be pushed around either. He got his point across and I didn't hear Ennis denying anything after that. No arguement there, what the hell could he say at that point? He knew Jack was right though he did try to explain his sacrifices through the years by saying It's cause a you I'm like this, nothin and nowhere"  Sounds like blame to me. He was mad about gettin exposed like this, shoving Jack away, then just dissolved into tears. Jack was mad about having been put in this position to say those words. Ennis really couldn't take it. Was it really Jack's fault? What about Jack's sacrifices?  No I  don't think so, IMO  At least Jack had a plan, a good one that would benefit them both. Him and Ennis could have been sittin pretty. Ennis had no one to blame for his circumstances but himself. Jack said it and I agree with him. Ennis felt action spoke louder than words but in this case a little more action from Ennis was due Jack. I must point out this scene was excellently acted out by Jake and Heath. Thumbs up to both. Rant over.

As usual aintfoolin', you've spelled out this delicate interplay between Ennis n' Jack very well, its no rant. I'm with you most of the way up to the point of sittin' pretty. Somewhat OT but it seems the assumption is (not just you) that IF Ennis had gone to live with Jack everything woulda' been just fine. I'm not sure this is the case, Jack was killed, apparently for messin' with Randall (just what Ennis was afraid of) and Randall wasn't able to protect him, and that was in TX. And just to mix reality with fiction, Matthew Sheppard was strung up in WY just a few years after the SS was written. So I can't make that leap to "if only they had been together Jack wouldn't be dead". I think one of points AP was trying to make was either way it was possibly going to be bad for two guys livin' together out there. My rant.

[tpe]

I agree with you tpe,

I also remember the scene at the fireworks, Alma was more afraid of Ennis then the two jerks he punched out.  Jack could deal with Ennis.  That punch at the end of the first summer taught Jack a lot, so in a way at any given moment he knew Ennis could lash out.   The final confrontation Jack was prepared for anything, but he said what he had to.  He looked Ennis in the eye, and even after the threat, Jack still told Ennis how he felt, but what did Ennis do he broke down. 

Jack was Ennis's heart, I don't think was any way he would have hurt him, he would have hurt himself first, and often times did when it came to Jack. 

I think what Ennis was afraid of is his impulsiveness when it comes to his rages.  I do think he won't knowingly huurt Jack, although it is hard to tell what could have happened in a fit of jealous rage if Ennis found out about Randall.

If he would have seriously hurt Jack, he probably would have been guilt-ridden, or even self-destructive.

[ksxks]

As usual aintfoolin', you've spelled out this delicate interplay between Ennis n' Jack very well, its no rant. I'm with you most of the way up to the point of sittin' pretty. Somewhat OT but it seems the assumption is (not just you) that IF Ennis had gone to live with Jack everything woulda' been just fine. I'm not sure this is the case, Jack was killed, apparently for messin' with Randall (just what Ennis was afraid of) and Randall wasn't able to protect him, and that was in TX. And just to mix reality with fiction, Matthew Sheppard was strung up in WY just a few years after the SS was written. So I can't make that leap to "if only they had been together Jack wouldn't be dead". I think one of points AP was trying to make was either way it was possibly going to be bad for two guys livin' together out there. My rant.

I don't tend to think that Ennis could "protect" Jack necessarily, but I just would have liked them to have been closer, if not living together, or nearly so.  Then they might have gone through together the dangers that were out there for boys like them.  Makes the tragedy even worse, that Ennis didn't even know it at the time that Jack had been killed. 

kathy

[tpe]

I don't tend to think that Ennis could "protect" Jack necessarily, but I just would have liked them to have been closer, if not living together, or nearly so.  Then they might have gone through together the dangers that were out there for boys like them.  Makes the tragedy even worse, that Ennis didn't even know it at the time that Jack had been killed. 

kathy

True.

Ennis and Jack were still relatively young -- not that tough old birds that Earl and Rich had become.   They still could have put out a fight, and I suspect that people would think twice when confronted by someone like Ennis.

[welshwitch]

Strength in numbers - yes, the two of them together could surely have defended each other. I wonder if Earl and Rich were picked on just because they were older and therefore vulnerable - perhaps confronted by two young strong men, one of whom packed a mean punch and didn't care who he used it on, the homophobes might have backed off?

[tpe]

Strength in numbers - yes, the two of them together could surely have defended each other. I wonder if Earl and Rich were picked on just because they were older and therefore vulnerable - perhaps confronted by two young strong men, one of whom packed a mean punch and didn't care who he used it on, the homophobes might have backed off?

I thought that their age was part of this -- they were easier to pick on.  IN the case of Ennis, I think people would think twice before trying a similar thing on him... 

[aintfoolin]

I never thought of this, Age may very well have played a part in Earl and Rich's cases. Certainly these were two strong men who could  do alot of damage if threatened in any way. To be at the business end of Ennis's double barrel shotgun would not sit well with anyone... even the local homophobes. And Jack? well I would'nt wanna tangle with this guy either. They have a right to defend themselves in any case so any one who dares to raise the ire in either one  of these two is asking for major problems imo.

[manhattangirl]

Remember the two bikers, and he laid them out all by his lonesome.  Imagine if he was defending Jack.?  Imagine both fighting them off, Oh, I get all tinglely thinking about it.  IMSW (in my own sick way).   

[welshwitch]

Don't think you'd be fighting them off, then, manhattangirl! So *o)rry,

[manhattangirl]

Now that's something I wasn't even thinking about. 

[jackster]

Remember the two bikers, and he laid them out all by his lonesome.

'Course Ennis wasn't invinceble, remember the "Hey asshole, watch where your goin' " Thanksgiving fight, when Ennis picked on the wrong guy. The big problem is they can't be together all the time and there are some really wide open, lonely places out west. Imagine the pain of coming home from a long day (or two) rounding up cattle out on the range and finding Jack had some "visitors".

[manhattangirl]

I know, I know, Ennis was not invincible, and Jack at no time shown to be prone to that same violent behavior.  This was just a little passing thought I had, a little fantasy of my own.  Seeing Ennis and Jack in good knock down drag out, with a couple knuckleheads like the bikers,   sorry if I upset anyone.   

[tpe]

Ennis would have certainly put up a fight, but even he can't do anything against trickery.

Part of the reason why Jack was killed all to easily (assuming that this scene indeed occur, and not just in Ennis's imagination) was that there was the element of surprise. 

I could see both of them being ambushed and they would have been helpless or at least at a great disadvantage...

[welshwitch]

Anyway the ambush shown was three on one, one armed with a tire iron, one unarmed. Not good odds, specially when you're taken by surprise. Jack had to have been tough when he was working on farms and rodeoing, but I wonder whether he was ever a fighter? He never provokes the fights with Ennis up on the montain and is never shown fighting again, whereas Ennis did and is.

[lamusica]

Surprise is certainly a strong element of this attack.  However, I also think Jack may have had a bit of a fatalistic attitude when he realized what was going down.  This was EXACTLY what Ennis had warned him about.  Surely Ennis flashed before his eyes, along with all his warnings.  Maybe Jack thought the attack was inevitable.  Maybe he ever thought in a tiny way that he deserved the beating.  I know that's a disturbing thought, but when faced with possible ( probable?) death, who knows what goes through a person's mind.

[tpe]

Anyway the ambush shown was three on one, one armed with a tire iron, one unarmed. Not good odds, specially when you're taken by surprise. Jack had to have been tough when he was working on farms and rodeoing, but I wonder whether he was ever a fighter? He never provokes the fights with Ennis up on the montain and is never shown fighting again, whereas Ennis did and is.

THis is true, although Ennis didn't seem to care about odds, as evidenced by his taking on the 2 bikers.  But then again he had the element of surprise in that one!

[tpe]

Surprise is certainly a strong element of this attack.  However, I also think Jack may have had a bit of a fatalistic attitude when he realized what was going down.  This was EXACTLY what Ennis had warned him about.  Surely Ennis flashed before his eyes, along with all his warnings.  Maybe Jack thought the attack was inevitable.  Maybe he ever thought in a tiny way that he deserved the beating.  I know that's a disturbing thought, but when faced with possible ( probable?) death, who knows what goes through a person's mind.

Yes, I suspect that Ennis would not have been brought down as easily as Jack, even with the element of surprise.

What if Ennis would have been there?  3 to 2 is not too bad.  And Ennis would have probably been a stubborn adversary, not so easily brought down.