Topic: Time frame of Jack's death from last meeting and Ennis finding out?

[masetane]

I just saw this movie last weekend and the whole story and scenery just took my breath away. I just can't stop thinking about it.

I was wondering....since Ennis didn't know about Jack's death until he sent his postcard - what do you think the time frame was.  I was thinking that maybe their last meeting was in the spring, Ennis sent the postcard during the summer or end of summer. 

I'm choking up thinking that maybe Jack died shortly after last seeing Ennis? 

Thoughts?

[welshwitch]

Hello, Masetane. Welcome to the forum and thanks for your first post. You have joined a group who have discussed every nuance of this movie and are still doing so. I hope you enjoy your time here.

As far as your question is concerned, it seems to me that the meeting which ends in the confrontation takes place in March - earlier it would surely have been too cold. Then Ennis says he can't make August but will be there in November, after which again I suppose it would be too cold to cmp until the spring. My feeling is that they meet three times a year, and maybe in the past did so more often, but now that Ennis can't get away as easily he's cutting this down to twice and that's what makes Jack angry.

Presumably Ennis and Jack have no contact after this; from the brief depiction of Jack's death it's impossible to tell when he dies but it seems unlikely to me that Ennis would have tried to make contact, even reassure himself that Jack intended to be there despite what they had said to each other, till at least September, or maybe even later, since he wasn't going to be able to mmet him till November a nothing had changed for him.

[trekfan]

I got the impression that it was more like May,  in March it would have been cold and there would have been snow on the ground.  In May it might have been chilly enough for them to have coats on, being in the mountain.  And Jack was looking forward to Aug, then Ennis springs on him that he'll be seeing him in Nov instead.  Jack hates the cold. He was so mad at him for not telling him during the week. Ennis knew if he had told him when they first got together Jack would blow his stack just like he did.  So he didn't want to spoil their time together by letting him know about the change in plans.

Ennis might have sent his postcard at either the end of summer or in Sept that Nov still looked good and they should meet at Pine Creek.  (maybe this was their regular meeting place) 

Then by the time the post office got word about Jack being deceased, stamping the postcard and sending it back to Ennis he probably got it at the end of Sept or early Oct.

This brings up another interesting question.  Lureen said she would have told Ennis if she had known his address, wouldn't she have seen any of the post cards that might have had Ennis' return address? OR could have seen the Riverton postmark on it?  Would that last postcard from Ennis have made it to the house or did the post office head it off, stamp it deceased and sent it back to Enns?

[tpe]

I got the impression that it was more like May,  in March it would have been cold and there would have been snow on the ground.  In May it might have been chilly enough for them to have coats on, being in the mountain.  And Jack was looking forward to Aug, then Ennis springs on him that he'll be seeing him in Nov instead.  Jack hates the cold. He was so mad at him for not telling him during the week. Ennis knew if he had told him when they first got together Jack would blow his stack just like he did.  So he didn't want to spoil their time together by letting him know about the change in plans.

Ennis might have sent his postcard at either the end of summer or in Sept that Nov still looked good and they should meet at Pine Creek.  (maybe this was their regular meeting place) 

Then by the time the post office got word about Jack being deceased, stamping the postcard and sending it back to Ennis he probably got it at the end of Sept or early Oct.

This brings up another interesting question.  Lureen said she would have told Ennis if she had known his address, wouldn't she have seen any of the post cards that might have had Ennis' return address? OR could have seen the Riverton postmark on it?  Would that last postcard from Ennis have made it to the house or did the post office head it off, stamp it deceased and sent it back to Enns?

Hello masetane and trekfan.

I think most people have the impression that the last meeting was set in Spring, and that the next meeting was set for November of the same year.

But the screenplay apparently looks at the timeline differently:

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=968.0

[edgar]

In my opinion, the screenplay is full of errors. Perhaps it was put together quicky, or some of the copy editors or something felt obliged to put something of the time on each scene without doing careful research. Many of the time references in the screenplay make absolutely no sense.

But now on to the topic: I have to agree with trekfan: March in the Wyoming mountains is not going to happen. WAY to cold and snowy--they're still skiing in April in the Northern Rockies. May is pushing it--June? But would they really plan to meet in June and again (so soon) in August?

Anyway, one little constructive bit I have to add is that Jack must have died a few weeks or a month before Ennis got the postcard back. Normally, mail for the deceased continues to be delivered for some time so that bills, legal papers, etc. don't get lost or misplaced.

[trekfan]

I agree Edgar there were things in the screenplay that was very different than in the story, but I think when you adapt a book, depending on the subject matter, changes do have to be made in order to let the story come off the pages and onto the screen.

I am not sure what they do now for people who are deceased.  if they still stamp them.  But I tend to think that Jack's death could not have been too long ago.  The way Lureen spoke to Ennis it couldn't have happened more than a month, two at the most.   I don't know if it was an accident like she said or the tire irons like Ennis imagined.

The way she was talking it was like she was reading off a script, saying to him 'he was only 39 years old'    I think Ennis knows how hold his friend was.

[masetane]

Hmm - interesting. i think jack was definitely murdered and the bits where you see it happening are accounts of what really happened as she is giving the fake story.  I don't think Ennis was imagining it but it's interesting how we all interpret it. 
It was interesting she seemed to tear up when he said that they herded sheep in '63.   

[tpe]

In my opinion, the screenplay is full of errors. Perhaps it was put together quicky, or some of the copy editors or something felt obliged to put something of the time on each scene without doing careful research. Many of the time references in the screenplay make absolutely no sense.

But now on to the topic: I have to agree with trekfan: March in the Wyoming mountains is not going to happen. WAY to cold and snowy--they're still skiing in April in the Northern Rockies. May is pushing it--June? But would they really plan to meet in June and again (so soon) in August?

Anyway, one little constructive bit I have to add is that Jack must have died a few weeks or a month before Ennis got the postcard back. Normally, mail for the deceased continues to be delivered for some time so that bills, legal papers, etc. don't get lost or misplaced.

Nice to see you here again, Edgar! 

There are numerous versions of the screenplay, but I suspect that the final published screenplay is very deliberate in the dates that were given.  As was posted in the thread about the timeline in the last scenes, the screenplay dates do make sense if one is assume that Ennis was proposing almost an entire YEAR of separation.  In fact, this would probably make more sense and explain why Jack was so livid when Ennis said this -- a delay of a few months would probably not have accounted for such an outburst.

In any case, I suspect that most people are not aware of the timeline as given in the screenplay, and assume that the last meeting was in Spring, and November was the NOvermber of the same year.

[edgar]

Nice to see you here again, Edgar! 

There are numerous versions of the screenplay, but I suspect that the final published screenplay is very deliberate in the dates that were given.  As was posted in the thread about the timeline in the last scenes, the screenplay dates do make sense if one is assume that Ennis was proposing almost an entire YEAR of separation.  In fact, this would probably make more sense and explain why Jack was so livid when Ennis said this -- a delay of a few months would probably not have accounted for such an outburst.

In any case, I suspect that most people are not aware of the timeline as given in the screenplay, and assume that the last meeting was in Spring, and November was the NOvermber of the same year.

Thanks, Thomas; it's nice to be back. If one accepts the screenplay dates, doesn't that mean *more* than a year of separation? Which seems almost like a breakup, really.

And as for my indistinct comment about the screenplay being "full of errors," I can't do the research right now, but we know there are contradictions, for example, a calendar in a scene contradicting with the screenplay dates, and/or with Bobby's age, etc.

Once again, I'll be making assertions without backing them up with facts, but screenplays often have errors in them... concerning anything that does NOT affect what is seen/spoken on film. And last minute changes are made...

I suppose the screenplay that has been provided for our consumption has been modified from the shooting script to reflect some of the changes made on the set. For example, the shooting screenplay obviously included the directions and dialogue for the deleted scenes, which are not in the screenplay we have.

The point is, screenplays are under constant revision. Maybe the year for the lakeside scene and the phone call scene were both the same at one point, then one was changed for whatever reason, and they forgot to change the other one....

I personally cannot fathom Ennis going an entire year without seeing (or communicating with?) Jack, then just sending the normal postcard....

[jackster]

I suppose the screenplay that has been provided for our consumption has been modified from the shooting script to reflect some of the changes made on the set.

Right on that one edgar! I hope you've been able to get a copy of the "final shooting script" (from April I think), like you say it varies a lot from the published version which certainly had to be reworked after the fact to match the movie as released. I'm with you on the timeline. I can't see a year or more of seperation either. But there would've been a lot more snow in the mountains even in June (depending on the annual weather of course). In early June the snow is still often several feet deep at high elevation. I remember seeing a close-up photo of the "deceased" postcard in Ennis's hand at one point. I was surprized to see in the "background" in the other mail that he was holding was a printed advertisement flyer with a date of April on it. Which makes no sense at all - he's wearing a coat so I've always assumed that it was portrayed to be early fall, maybe September. My 2 cents.

jackster

[tpe]

Thanks, Thomas; it's nice to be back. If one accepts the screenplay dates, doesn't that mean *more* than a year of separation? Which seems almost like a breakup, really.

We try to catch each other here when we can. 

In the screenplay scenario, it would seem that the last meeting was in Fall, and not Spring; hence it would be about a year's separation.  He went up to his folks that fall.  But in the Spring that followed, Jack came back to tell his parents about his plans to move up with Randall.

This would have given Jack and Randall the whole winter to talk and think things over.  This makes more sense, given that it would be hard to imagine that Jack goes to his parents immediately after the last meeting with Ennis to tell them that Randall would be moving back with him, when in fact, he had had no time to speak to Randall about this if he just had his quarrel with Ennis.

And as for my indistinct comment about the screenplay being "full of errors," I can't do the research right now, but we know there are contradictions, for example, a calendar in a scene contradicting with the screenplay dates, and/or with Bobby's age, etc.

Not so sure about this one, although I would not be surprised if there are inconsistencies on both projected timelines.  Incidentally, the timelines of both the short story and screenplay for the entire story are given side by side in the thread I had referred to.  Both of these timelies match each other almost everywhere, except for the last scenes.

Once again, I'll be making assertions without backing them up with facts, but screenplays often have errors in them... concerning anything that does NOT affect what is seen/spoken on film. And last minute changes are made...

I suppose the screenplay that has been provided for our consumption has been modified from the shooting script to reflect some of the changes made on the set. For example, the shooting screenplay obviously included the directions and dialogue for the deleted scenes, which are not in the screenplay we have.

The point is, screenplays are under constant revision. Maybe the year for the lakeside scene and the phone call scene were both the same at one point, then one was changed for whatever reason, and they forgot to change the other one....

I personally cannot fathom Ennis going an entire year without seeing (or communicating with?) Jack, then just sending the normal postcard....

This may be, but given how carefully the dates are given in the last scenes, compared to the other scenes, it would seem that this was deliberate and not just an oversight.  Again, I should mention that the comparison between both the short story and screenplay timelines posted in the thread I cited shows that both match in most places.  This makes the differences in the dates for the last scenes all the more glaring.  I shall try to repost this comparison here...

[tpe]

Here is the detailed comparison of the short story and screenplay timelines.  It was originally posted by Surf501 in the thread Tiimeline of the Last Scenes - Spoilers.

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=968.msg10477#msg10477

I posted this on IMDB.  Hope you enjoy it too:

Here goes after seeing the movie eight times, and reading the published version of the screenplay, certain year milestones are noted:

1963 - The year they meet, summer. After Brokeback, Ennis marries Alma the same year.

1964 - Ennis and Alma are married, and expecting their first child. The movie at the Drive-in is "Surf Party", from 1964.

1966 - Fourth of July when Ennis beats up the foul mouthed Biker. The announcer in the background clearly says Fourth of July, 1966. Same summer, Jack attempts to pick up Jimbo the Rodeo Clown, then meets Lureen.

1967 - Four years after the summer on Brokeback, Jack and Ennis reunite.

Flashback: 1952 - Ennis' father takes him and his brother to see the murdered body of Earl, the rancher. Ennis says he is 9 years old, which means he must have turned 20 later in the fall of 1963, after the summer on Brokeback, which makes sense since the book says he was "not yet twenty", which seems to imply "not yet twenty, but almost/soon will be".

1969 - The "Where's my Blue Parka?" scene. The screenplay is messed up here about dates. In the space of two pages the year changes from 1971 to 1969 to a scene with a wall calendar that says 1973! I think that 1969 is supposed to be the correct year, but then why would little Bobby need a tutor at age of only 2 or 3? In the movie though we are free to place it in any year we choose in a given late sixties, early 70's range.

1972 - The montage where Jack is letting bobby drive the tractor and Ennis is baling hay out the back of a truck

1973 - Ennis and Alma sit in their apartment on a Saturday night and watch an episode of "Kojack". Alma wants to go to the Church social, but Ennis dosesn't feel like hanging out with "..that fire and brimstone crowd."

1975 - Ennis and Alma divorce. The date is read by the judge. I believe it's in July. The 5th? (Correction: The date of their divorce is November 6th) Jack drives up to see Ennis, hoping this means they will now be able to live together.

1977 - Thanksgiving with Ennis at Alma and Monroe's, and at the Twist Household. You hear the year read by the announcer at the football game on television. The screenplay describes Bobby as being 10, which means he would have had to be two when he needed the tutor.

1978 - Jack and Ennis go to the Mountains again, "Aww go to hell Ennis Del Mar, you want to live your miserable *beep* life, go ahead..." Jack and Lureen meet Randall and LaShawn Malone, at a benefit dinner dance. Ennis meets Cassie.

1979 - Scene with Ennis, Cassie, and Alma Jr. at the bar. The screenplay describes Alma Jr. as 15 yrs,

1981/1983 - Jack and Ennis meet for the last time in 1981 (screenplay) or 1983 (book). In the book, Proulx says they go everywhere but back to Brokeback. In the movie it seems like they always return to Brokeback or we assume so. Cassie confronts Ennis in the Diner.

1982 - In the screenplay, this is the year Jack is killed, and Ennis has the phone coversation with Lureen. Ennis meets Jack's parents.

1984 - Final scenes in movie with Ennis and Alma Jr., the reversed shirts.

"You know it could be like this, just like this, always"
Black Hat White Hat

[jackster]

Thanks tpe for that repost it clarifies a lot. Surf501 did a great job, I just checked the SS and Annies spells out the month:
"In May of 1983 they spent a few cold days at a series of little icebound, no name high lakes, then worked across into the Hail Strew River drainage."
Obviously SP and movie took some creative liberties here.

[tpe]

Thanks tpe for that repost it clarifies a lot. Surf501 did a great job, I just checked the SS and Annies spells out the month:
"In May of 1983 they spent a few cold days at a series of little icebound, no name high lakes, then worked across into the Hail Strew River drainage."
Obviously SP and movie took some creative liberties here.

I agree, jackster.   The SP and the movie did take some liberties.  It's a good thing that the SP dates were not explicitly shown in the film -- that would have created a lot of confusion, I think.  I do think almost everyone who watched the movie and did not have accress to the SP must have come away with the thought that the last scenes happened in the same year.  Was this deliberate -- a final decision to tone down some of the liberties taken by the SP?  Perhaps.  But I do think it good that the SP dates were not given in the movie...

 

[masetane]

I know nothing will ever be written about them again from Annie Prolux (did I spell that correctly?) - but I would love an extra scene of how Ennis managed later on in life. I'm so curious how Ennis's life panned out in the end.
I'm sort of guessing just doing  his cowboy thing, seeing his girls and his own private thoughts but it would be neat to see the author;s interpretation.....

[trekfan]

Here is the detailed comparison of the short story and screenplay timelines.  It was originally posted by Surf501 in the thread Tiimeline of the Last Scenes - Spoilers.

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=968.msg10477#msg10477

Thank you so much for posting this.  This really help with the timeline

 

[tpe]

I know nothing will ever be written about them again from Annie Prolux (did I spell that correctly?) - but I would love an extra scene of how Ennis managed later on in life. I'm so curious how Ennis's life panned out in the end.
I'm sort of guessing just doing  his cowboy thing, seeing his girls and his own private thoughts but it would be neat to see the author;s interpretation.....

We do get glimpses in Proulx's story, especially the starting and ending dream sequences.  The time frame of the starting dream sequence was apparently much later than the ending dream sequence, given the wording that begins the section of the ending sequence.  But the only thing we can guess about the dream sequence in the beginning is that it must have been after Alma Jr.'s marriage, no?   It is hard to say when exactly.  Probably years after Jack had died.

Beyond this, we have Proulx's words about how seeing an elderly cowboy watching younger ones helped germinate the vision of an Ennis in later life.  We can guess that Ennis aged pretty much alone and lonely, in spite of consolation of daughters who loved him.

[tpe]

Thank you so much for posting this.  This really help with the timeline

 

You're welcome. 

[edgar]

I agree, jackster.   The SP and the movie did take some liberties.  It's a good thing that the SP dates were not explicitly shown in the film -- that would have created a lot of confusion, I think.  I do think almost everyone who watched the movie and did not have accress to the SP must have come away with the thought that the last scenes happened in the same year.  Was this deliberate -- a final decision to tone down some of the liberties taken by the SP?  Perhaps.  But I do think it good that the SP dates were not given in the movie...

Tardy reply...
Thanks for posting the detailed timeline. The one scene has three different dates: 1969, 1971, and 1973 (calendar); the "correct" date is confirmed later as 1969 leading to a conclusion that can hardly make sense about "teachers" "school" and "tutor" for a two-year-old Bobby.
I think that this example might help prove the point I'm making that the screenplay dates should not be taken overly seriously... The idea is that the audience knows Jack has marriage and family responsibilities; he habitually goes to visit Ennis; time is passing... It doesn't need to be exact.

And regarding tpe's post I have quoted above:
"I do think almost everyone who watched the movie and did not have accress to the SP must have come away with the thought that the last scenes happened in the same year."

IMHO, the fact that everyone would certainly think it was the same year basically guarantees that, indeed, it *is* the same year. If Lee et al wanted to have a year pass, they would certainly have given us another clue--a date on a piece of mail, a visible change in Ennis, etc.

tpe, you bring up a good point about the Jack telling the folks about Randall... In hindsight, maybe that's why someone decided to change the date of the phone booth scene. Since Mr T says that Jack had informed them, someone figured a year must have passed. This is a difficult issue, but I guess I would have to deduce that after the terrible fight at the lake, Jack (who had already been seeing Randall fairly steadily on the side) *said* that to his parents, not necessarily meaning it would be true.  Remember, he had also told them many times that Ennis would move up there with him. Jack was a true romantic, and the line between dream and reality was fluid for him. 

Difficulties all around, but I just can't see them meeting in October or November and Ennis saying he could not meet again until the following November. Besides my view of the characters, wouldn't such a proposal necessitate the verbal clue of "next November," even "next August"?

Not meaning to be stubborn here..... 

[tpe]

Tardy reply...
Thanks for posting the detailed timeline. The one scene has three different dates: 1969, 1971, and 1973 (calendar); the "correct" date is confirmed later as 1969 leading to a conclusion that can hardly make sense about "teachers" "school" and "tutor" for a two-year-old Bobby.
I think that this example might help prove the point I'm making that the screenplay dates should not be taken overly seriously... The idea is that the audience knows Jack has marriage and family responsibilities; he habitually goes to visit Ennis; time is passing... It doesn't need to be exact.

And regarding tpe's post I have quoted above:
"I do think almost everyone who watched the movie and did not have accress to the SP must have come away with the thought that the last scenes happened in the same year."

IMHO, the fact that everyone would certainly think it was the same year basically guarantees that, indeed, it *is* the same year. If Lee et al wanted to have a year pass, they would certainly have given us another clue--a date on a piece of mail, a visible change in Ennis, etc.

tpe, you bring up a good point about the Jack telling the folks about Randall... In hindsight, maybe that's why someone decided to change the date of the phone booth scene. Since Mr T says that Jack had informed them, someone figured a year must have passed. This is a difficult issue, but I guess I would have to deduce that after the terrible fight at the lake, Jack (who had already been seeing Randall fairly steadily on the side) *said* that to his parents, not necessarily meaning it would be true.  Remember, he had also told them many times that Ennis would move up there with him. Jack was a true romantic, and the line between dream and reality was fluid for him. 

Difficulties all around, but I just can't see them meeting in October or November and Ennis saying he could not meet again until the following November. Besides my view of the characters, wouldn't such a proposal necessitate the verbal clue of "next November," even "next August"?

Not meaning to be stubborn here..... 

Thanks Edgar.  It's ok, and it is not stubbornness to stick with what you believe in this case.  Personally, I do think the matter of the last dates is deliberate, although I would agree that perhaps they did not completely end up with a satisfactory alternative timeline.

It would have been nice to know what reasons the screenwriters had (if any) for playing around with the final dates.  I guess it is partly to convey the feeling that in the later years, Ennis became more and more difficult for Jack to see (as the "Pope" comment indicates).  Also, as we noted, perhaps it was to allow time for Jack and Randall to think things over. 

In any case, I think that working with the screenplay dates, we can come up with a plausible scenario of the last scenes, although I do doubt that anyone realized this change of dates while watching the movie.  Again, this may have been deliberate -- Ang Lee probably wanted to smoothed over the discrepancies, in making the movie appear in better agreement with thje short story.

[welshwitch]

If you want discrepancies, just look at almost any of Shakespeare's plays. What is evcident on the page to someone analyzing it passes unnoticed on the stage or screen. Watching the movie most of us wouldn't be calculating in this way, evennoticing things like postmarks, which were probably only included tomake the postacrds look "real", not to reinforce the time-line.

And I think they met for the last time in May, Jack went away and died in the summer, Ennis sent the psotcard about November sometime at the end of the summer or later. ther eis no way I can see him waiting over a year before writing. Given Jack's impulsiveness, it's not a stretch to imagine him mentioning Randall at Lightning Flat - for example, after the final confrontation when he was angry with Ennis.

[JT]

All these time I was following the dates on the ss because it makes more sense.  The dates on the sp is rater confusing.  If Jack did die in '82, he can't be 39 unless he was 20 back in 1963. That made him a year older than Ennis who we know was 19.  but acording to the ss, they were both 19 back then.  It's probably easier to follow one or the other but not both the sp and the ss.

[tpe]

If you want discrepancies, just look at almost any of Shakespeare's plays. What is evcident on the page to someone analyzing it passes unnoticed on the stage or screen. Watching the movie most of us wouldn't be calculating in this way, evennoticing things like postmarks, which were probably only included tomake the postacrds look "real", not to reinforce the time-line.

And I think they met for the last time in May, Jack went away and died in the summer, Ennis sent the psotcard about November sometime at the end of the summer or later. ther eis no way I can see him waiting over a year before writing. Given Jack's impulsiveness, it's not a stretch to imagine him mentioning Randall at Lightning Flat - for example, after the final confrontation when he was angry with Ennis.

Good point about the plays, WW.

As to the year-long wait, I think it makes more sense, in that it showed that Ennis and Jack met less and less frequently over the years.  To say that all this happened in a year meant that Jack was insisting on 3 meetings in that year.  This was certainly true during the early years (i.e., Lureen's comment in the Parka scene) but it does not make sense that Jack would be saying Ennis became harder to get a hold of (i.e., the "Pope" comment) if after all those years, they continued meeting 2 or 3 times a year, as before.

[tpe]

All these time I was following the dates on the ss because it makes more sense.  The dates on the sp is rater confusing.  If Jack did die in '82, he can't be 39 unless he was 20 back in 1963. That made him a year older than Ennis who we know was 19.  but acording to the ss, they were both 19 back then.  It's probably easier to follow one or the other but not both the sp and the ss.

JT, see the discussion in the original thread where the parallel timeline was originally posted.  The implication as to their ages was discussed there. 

 

[tpe]

All these time I was following the dates on the ss because it makes more sense.  The dates on the sp is rater confusing.  If Jack did die in '82, he can't be 39 unless he was 20 back in 1963. That made him a year older than Ennis who we know was 19.  but acording to the ss, they were both 19 back then.  It's probably easier to follow one or the other but not both the sp and the ss.

I might as well save you the pain of going through the previous discussions and answer this directly here. 

That Jack was 19 in 63 and 39 in 1982 are not contradictory.  Jack's birthday probably fell on a later month of the year, say September or October.  Assuming he died in late Spring/ early Summer of 1982 and that he celebrated his 20th birthday in a later month in 63, he would the be 39 (an a few months!) at the time of his death. 

[edgar]

Good point about the plays, WW.

As to the year-long wait, I think it makes more sense, in that it showed that Ennis and Jack met less and less frequently over the years.  To say that all this happened in a year meant that Jack was insisting on 3 meetings in that year.  This was certainly true during the early years (i.e., Lureen's comment in the Parka scene) but it does not make sense that Jack would be saying Ennis became harder to get a hold of (i.e., the "Pope" comment) if after all those years, they continued meeting 2 or 3 times a year, as before.

WW, do NOT get me started on Shakespeare.... 

Thomas, I'm enjoying our discussion here, and I do want to make clear that I have the utmost respect for you and all your opinions, and I'm sure you've thought about it very carefully.
But.
In fact, I do see Jack as very carefully, very deliberately pushing for more meetings in their last few years together. He was actively seeking to stop his marriage with Lureen and start a life with .... Ennis, of course, but with a man in any case. He was getting almost desperate, and he was (as we see in conversations several times in the movie) *pushing* Ennis for a commitment. Jack's planning/arranging more meetings was part of his plan to woo Ennis over to his way of thinking. He *refuses* to settle for a "couple of high altitude [encounters] once or twice a year." So he's insisting on more than that, which would make the three-meeting plan make sense.
It would also make sense that this plan would push Ennis beyond his comfort zone.

By the way, in Ennis's line of work, I would certainly expect he could get off work once or twice a year (besides holidays) easily; thus, the general frequency of their meetings. I really *don't* believe that his boss had given him off a week in November 1981--and had ALREADY refused him a week off in August 1982!!! That's just not the way that type of job works--the rancher might not even know at that point what would be going on that far in the future. It all depends on when the cows calve, etc.
On the other hand, I could very well see a rancher raising an  if Ennis, having time off in May, had already asked for time off in both August and November.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
(Why isn't there an emoticon for a two-person hug?)

[tpe]

edgar.  Always nice to catch you! 

I'm about to go out and make some errands, but I do enjoy the discussion very much.  I will make a proper response when I get back.  But suffice it to say for now that I agree that Jack wanted as much as he could as far as time with Ennis was concerned, but that it seemed that he got less and less of this.  In any case, let me elaborate a bit more later on my next post!

[welshwitch]

Being devil's advocate here, Edgar, as I agree with you, but I suppose the couple of high-altitude encounters could all take place during one meeting, or two....

[tpe]

WW, I won't argue with that arithmetic!


Back to the Edgar's point.  My overall impression is that as the years went by, it was Ennis who restricted the frequency of the meetings, and not Jack demanding more and more.  Both of them probably could never have arranged for more than 3 meetings anyway, given that both of them were working  and that Jack too had to make sure that the family business was not impacted. 

I don't think it would have been in Jack's character or ability then to demand more than 2 or 3 meetings, since he himself was not a man of leisure.  It is more likely that he probably sought to maintain a status quo wherein the the schedule of these meetings were regulated and expected by both parties.  August seemed to have been such a month, as was November.  Given that Jack sought to maintain a fixed number and not more than that, it is reasonable then to surmise that it was Ennis who continually tried to whittle away at the established number of meetings: because it was Ennis, after all, who did not have steady work and who most likely had to cancel meetings to take on a last minute job or else find a new one.  I suspect this is exactly what happened over the years.

My take on it is that in the later years, Ennis could only have managed one or (at most) two meetings most of the time because of the unpredictable nature of his work and the fact that it became increasingly difficult to drop one and find another.   Jack felt no such pressure, and he would have been happy with a fixed number of meetings, since his work was steady.

It is therefore more probable (given the nature and steadiness of their work) that it was Ennis who pressured Jack into fewer meetings.  As Ennis had stated in his last meeting, work and payment of child support for the children were reason enough for him to excuse himself to some of the agreed-upon dates on when they were supposed to meet.

[masetane]

This is all interesting.. But yeah, I think it was hard for Ennis to find and drop work all the time. I mean approaching 40 - maybe they want to hire younger people?? So at his age, you begin to establish a relationship with your employer so you remain hired?  I also think that as he matured, he felt he needed to be more responsible.

I think Jack was initially fine with their brief encounters, but as he matured, he began to feel that at this point in his life, he needed more and the marriage was a charade of who he was.  I think this all comes due to maturity and just wanting to get on with your life... 

When you are younger, I think things can roll off your shoulders a bit more..

Hopefully all that made some sort of sense!