Author Topic: The Sweet Life? (Read 53220 times)

lauren · « **Reply #30 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 01:50 AM »

the sweet life is something that i really want for both of them if only jack hadn't died. if only jack had showed up at the end of the movie just when ennis say 'jack, i swear...' and jack would've said, 'swear what?' or something equally sarcastic. then they would have kissed and make up and they would ride off into the sunset to pursue the sweet life that they are after but then, unfortunately, jack died and all my dreams about them being together at the end were flusjed down the toilet. if it were up to me, it would have been possible for them to be together seeing that when they are together, that's the only time ennis truly opens up. that's when they are themselves...when they are with their family, its like they are both concealing a part of themselves. with jack, ennis can truly let go all his worries and let jack lead the way...they would be equals...lovers...partners

manhattangirl · « **Reply #31 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 06:43 AM »

Ennis had a way of bringing Jack once in a while back to reality, Jack had a big ego, Ennis had a way of bringing him down to earth. Ennis had a strong work ethic, untangling the sheep, "we had to stick with it Jack." So if they did have c & c operation, Ennis would have been the backbone, if Jack felt a little overwhelmed Ennis would have given the strength to keep going.

They were so perfectly match, it is painful to watch what they went through.

tpe · « **Reply #32 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 06:45 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Apr 23, 2007, 07:20 PM

Sometimes it is just easier to stick with what you know that to strike out into the unknown. Maybe that's how Ennis felt. He wasn't happy with things the way they were, but at least he knew his place in that world. Striking out with Jack was an unknown -- where would they wind up; how would they be together all the time; what would society's reaction be? etc.

Maybe he just became complacent -- assuming that they could go on forever, even if it meant meeting less often. Ennis's greatest enemy is his stoicism, I fear. Had he a lower pain threshold, he probably would have given in to Jack's request...

tpe · « **Reply #33 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 06:50 AM »

Quote from: Bob on Apr 23, 2007, 08:08 PM

Opposites do attract, which they were, but - they also have to have something in common - which they did, would they have been able to be together - I think so, but I also think that Ennis would have had to move beyond his fears - also, Jack was a lot more outgoing than Ennis - I think he'd have to learn to enjoy the "silence" once in awhile - they would surely have had several "bumps" in the road - hopefully they'd be able to work them out - after all - they were together for nearly twenty so there must have been more there than just the sex. Just my opinion.

They did have a number of things in common -- important things, IMO. For one, they came from relatively difficult/lonely childhoods, and there was a need for companionship that was accepting of each other -- something that they never fully expereinced within their own families.

The mix of similarities and diddimilarities would have made a sweet life together work, IMO. It was a matter of being able to live ir without fears.

tpe · « **Reply #34 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 06:52 AM »

Quote from: lauren on Apr 24, 2007, 01:50 AM

the sweet life is something that i really want for both of them if only jack hadn't died. if only jack had showed up at the end of the movie just when ennis say 'jack, i swear...' and jack would've said, 'swear what?' or something equally sarcastic. then they would have kissed and make up and they would ride off into the sunset to pursue the sweet life that they are after but then, unfortunately, jack died and all my dreams about them being together at the end were flusjed down the toilet. if it were up to me, it would have been possible for them to be together seeing that when they are together, that's the only time ennis truly opens up. that's when they are themselves...when they are with their family, its like they are both concealing a part of themselves. with jack, ennis can truly let go all his worries and let jack lead the way...they would be equals...lovers...partners

lauren, so you do think it was probable that Ennis would have inevitably given in had Jack lived?

tpe · « **Reply #35 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 06:57 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Apr 24, 2007, 06:43 AM

Ennis had a way of bringing Jack once in a while back to reality, Jack had a big ego, Ennis had a way of bringing him down to earth. Ennis had a strong work ethic, untangling the sheep, "we had to stick with it Jack." So if they did have c & c operation, Ennis would have been the backbone, if Jack felt a little overwhelmed Ennis would have given the strength to keep going.

They were so perfectly match, it is painful to watch what they went through.

Ennis's "stubbornness" was both a strength and a failing in this regard. He gave Jack a sense of reality, but he also failed to see beyond the current reality -- that he could make something a reality if he dared to.

Jack's deferral to Ennis was likewise a strength and a weakness. Had he been a bit less deferential and a bit more assertive, perhaps he would have been able to turn Ennis around. But we see that by deferring to Ennis, Jack acknowledged that Ennis did have his feet on the ground most of the time and that he provided a sense of balance to jack's dreams.

Hence, it is hard to condemn both for those traits that both served them and shackled them.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #36 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 07:01 AM »

Totally agree, tpe

tpe · « **Reply #37 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 07:06 AM »

Thanks manhattangirl. For all our love of a sweet life, it is hard to put ourselves in either one's shoes. They made difficult choices that were both right and wrong. It can be so difficult to live, more so than it is to love.

jackster · « **Reply #38 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 07:09 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Apr 23, 2007, 07:12 AM

I think it would have been easier if Ennis would not have married. IO think it was this that set things in motion so as to be irreversible.

Exactly. And Annie lays this out in one of the very earliest scenes before there's much going on between the boys. Ennis ALREADY had a plan, one that didn't involve Jack. So Jack was working uphill from the start and his being able to "win over" Ennis during the summer is even more remarkable. It still amazes me how she wove this incredibly twisted tale with such skill.

tpe · « **Reply #39 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 07:18 AM »

Quote from: jackster on Apr 24, 2007, 07:09 AM

Exactly. And Annie lays this out in one of the very earliest scenes before there's much going on between the boys. Ennis ALREADY had a plan, one that didn't involve Jack. So Jack was working uphill from the start and his being able to "win over" Ennis during the summer is even more remarkable. It still amazes me how she wove this incredibly twisted tale with such skill.

I had wondered if up on Brokeback in 63, Jack already had a vision of a shared life together.

I think that it porbably was not yet well formed in him.

At that point in time, I think both of them resigned themselves to this being a one-shot thing, as Ennis already had othwer plans. It seemed to me that only after 4 years of separation that Jack realized that he wanted a life with Ennis, and by that time, things had gone too far in the other direction, as far as Alma and Lureen are concerned...

jackster · « **Reply #40 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 07:56 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Apr 24, 2007, 07:18 AM

I had wondered if up on Brokeback in 63, Jack already had a vision of a shared life together.

Interesting question, seems so basic it must have been discussed somewhere else but I don't know where. The SS makes it pretty clear in the motel scene when Ennis realizes he "needed" Jack, but it doesn't seem very clear in either SS or film when Jack makes his revelation regarding his idea of the Sweet Life. If Jack had the idea in '63 why did he wait four years (the punch?) or as you say it was just too unproven at that point. Did he hatch the plan while driving up to the Riverton reunion? But at that point he didn't know that Ennis was going have such a "warm" reception for him even though he redlined it - did he come up with this idea quickly in the motel (in the SS) or driving up to the mountains (in the film). I Wonder. . . .

welshwitch · « **Reply #41 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 12:43 PM »

Jack being Jack, I think he'd have said something or hinted, if not while they were up on the mountain, then after they came down and before they separated in Signal.

I think it came together in his mind once he realised that the Newsomes were never going to accept him, and that he was just a gofer in the short term and the guy who'd provided the Newsome heir, but unimportant in the eyes of LD, his wife and Lureen. Once again, as he'd been in his own family, Jack was the outsider who couldn't feel a sense of being loved and wanted, so he thought back to the time when he did, and realised that it was up on Brokeback with Ennis.

And since he was a natural optimist he decided to go back and see if there was any hope of rekindling what they'd had - LD had evidently already made it clear that he would pay Jack off if he'd go away, so money wouldn't be much of a problem. I think finding Ennis with two children must have been a bit of a shock, spcially after the passionate kiss that they'd just shared.

lamusica · « **Reply #42 on:** Apr 24, 2007, 04:50 PM »

Right on, ww!

lauren · « **Reply #43 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 02:09 AM »

Quote

lauren, so you do think it was probable that Ennis would have inevitably given in had Jack lived?

it's a possiblility. if ennis hadn't love jack so much, he wouldn't have wanted to keep their relationship going even after so many years, just waiting for the next time they would meet again. its a terrible way to love someone....always wondering how the other is but never getting to see them. i wish ennis would get over his discomfort about being gay earlier but i guess its already too late...

jackster · « **Reply #44 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 06:51 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Apr 24, 2007, 12:43 PM

And since he was a natural optimist he decided to go back and see if there was any hope of rekindling what they'd had - LD had evidently already made it clear that he would pay Jack off if he'd go away, so money wouldn't be much of a problem.

So, if I understand your timeline here, you think he had some ideas of the Sweet Life in, say late '66 or early '67 (the 12 months before the reunion) and that this may be one reason that spurred him on to send a postcard? I think that sounds pretty good. If was thinkin' those thoughts he REALLY must have happy with the reception he got!

tpe · « **Reply #45 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 06:58 AM »

Quote from: jackster on Apr 24, 2007, 07:56 AM

Interesting question, seems so basic it must have been discussed somewhere else but I don't know where. The SS makes it pretty clear in the motel scene when Ennis realizes he "needed" Jack, but it doesn't seem very clear in either SS or film when Jack makes his revelation regarding his idea of the Sweet Life. If Jack had the idea in '63 why did he wait four years (the punch?) or as you say it was just too unproven at that point. Did he hatch the plan while driving up to the Riverton reunion? But at that point he didn't know that Ennis was going have such a "warm" reception for him even though he redlined it - did he come up with this idea quickly in the motel (in the SS) or driving up to the mountains (in the film). I Wonder. . . .

Yes, I tend to agree that Jack's realization probably came much later. Perhaps the earliest would have been during the scene with the baby and in-laws, where he realized that he was an outsider in his wife's family...

tpe · « **Reply #46 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 07:00 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Apr 24, 2007, 12:43 PM

Jack being Jack, I think he'd have said something or hinted, if not while they were up on the mountain, then after they came down and before they separated in Signal.

I think it came together in his mind once he realised that the Newsomes were never going to accept him, and that he was just a gofer in the short term and the guy who'd provided the Newsome heir, but unimportant in the eyes of LD, his wife and Lureen. Once again, as he'd been in his own family, Jack was the outsider who couldn't feel a sense of being loved and wanted, so he thought back to the time when he did, and realised that it was up on Brokeback with Ennis.

And since he was a natural optimist he fdecided to go back and see if there was any hope of rekindling what they'd had - LD had evidently already made it clear that he would pay Jack off if he'd go away, so money wouldn't be much of a problem. I think finding Ennis with two children must have been a bit of a shock, spcially after the passionate kiss that they'd just shared.

I was just thinking the same thing WW. Yes, it must have culminated in the realization that the Newsomes would never really accept him.

tpe · « **Reply #47 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 07:04 AM »

Quote from: lauren on Apr 25, 2007, 02:09 AM

it's a possiblility. if ennis hadn't love jack so much, he wouldn't have wanted to keep their relationship going even after so many years, just waiting for the next time they would meet again. its a terrible way to love someone....always wondering how the other is but never getting to see them. i wish ennis would get over his discomfort about being gay earlier but i guess its already too late...

I personally go back and forth as to whether or not Ennis was ever going to change. The change we see in Ennis in the last scene with Alma Jr. seems to indicate that Ennis was also capable of changing, but I am not sure to what extent, and whether it would have abided a change of heart as far as a shared life with Jack was concerned...

As to Ennis's discomforture, yes, it was already ingrained in him by the time he met Jack. I don't think he would be able to make it completely go away, but could he have tamed it?

tpe · « **Reply #48 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 07:05 AM »

Quote from: jackster on Apr 25, 2007, 06:51 AM

So, if I understand your timeline here, you think he had some ideas of the Sweet Life in, say late '66 or early '67 (the 12 months before the reunion) and that this may be one reason that spurred him on to send a postcard? I think that sounds pretty good. If was thinkin' those thoughts he REALLY must have happy with the reception he got!

He must have been thrilled, if this is true. What more could he have expected?

welshwitch · « **Reply #49 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 01:17 PM »

I assume that LD tried to buy him off if not at the beginning then not long after he'd married Lureen. Once Bobby was born Jack had served his purpose and LD made that clear. So he offered Jack money; clearly at that point Jack wasn't deeply involved in the Newsome business - ranching, herding sheep and rodeoing were what he knew. Ennis was the one he'd shared that summer with - so why not put two and two together and, assuming that Ennis was as little committed to his wife as Jack was to Lureen, give it a try? Money wouldn't just buy them land; it could buy them land somewhere remote where there would be few people to comment on two men ranching together.

ragtimecowboy · « **Reply #50 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 09:23 PM »

Most good marriages, gay, straight or bi, are usually long lasting and enduring when both partners personalities compliment each other. Jack had a way of bringing Ennis out of his shell as no other person could. Remember the morning after, when they were being spied on, Ennis was as giddy as a school girl and uninhibited with Jack and playfully wrestled with him and planted a big kiss right on him. Jack would have been powerful good for him had he chosen to share his life with him.

Quote from: tpe on Apr 18, 2007, 07:56 AM

I think it would work because they are not really in opposition to one another; rather, then are more complementary. They seem to cover each other's weaknesses, and with both of them combined, I think they are stronger.

I think a lot of good marriages are based on complementarity, and not similarity, no?

FlwrChild · « **Reply #51 on:** Apr 25, 2007, 09:29 PM »

I think so too.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #52 on:** Apr 26, 2007, 07:13 AM »

Great post from all you here.

I can picture their place in my mind, how bout you? Since most think this would work , I'd like to explore this sweet life a little more though, What would each one 's *job* be in this Marriage/operation/partnership/ranch. Jack's dream... I see Jack keepin the books in a log cabin home built by them both. Can't picture Ennis Del Mar picking out curtains though. LOL

. Paint us a picture in your own words folks , of what your idea of an *everyday* life on Jack and Ennis's ranch ....Just speculation so please be creative and nice . This is Jack and Ennis place.!!or maybe post a picture showing what your idea of their place is like ....inside and out...... Can I ask this? I'm fascinated and intrigued by this. Have been since Jack suggested it . Dear Ennis could'nt realize it but...We can. Any takers?

tpe · « **Reply #53 on:** Apr 26, 2007, 07:44 AM »

Quote from: ragtimecowboy on Apr 25, 2007, 09:23 PM

Most good marriages, gay, straight or bi, are usually long lasting and enduring when both partners personalities compliment each other. Jack had a way of bringing Ennis out of his shell as no other person could. Remember the morning after, when they were being spied on, Ennis was as giddy as a school girl and uninhibited with Jack and playfully wrestled with him and planted a big kiss right on him. Jack would have been powerful good for him had he chosen to share his life with him.

Yes, I actually think that complementary unions are stronger, in the sense that each other's weeknesses are turned to strenghts. Better bonding, better coverage.

tpe · « **Reply #54 on:** Apr 26, 2007, 07:48 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Apr 26, 2007, 07:13 AM

Great post from all you here.

I can picture their place in my mind, how bout you? Since most think this would work , I'd like to explore this sweet life a little more though, What would each one 's *job* be in this Marriage/operation/partnership/ranch. Jack's dream... I see Jack keepin the books in a log cabin home built by them both. Can't picture Ennis Del Mar picking out curtains though. LOL . Paint us a picture in your own words folks , of what your idea of an *everyday* life on Jack and Ennis's ranch ....Just speculation so please be creative and nice . This is Jack and Ennis place.!!or maybe post a picture showing what your idea of their place is like ....inside and out...... Can I ask this? I'm fascinated and intrigued by this. Have been since Jack suggested it . Dear Ennis could'nt realize it but...We can. Any takers?

I remember Jack's bedroom, and think of what could have been. As in that bedroom, I think of a bed too small to fit both of them, and imagine them sleeping in a closely interlocked embrace.

Austere, but a sweet life nonetheless.

jackster · « **Reply #55 on:** Apr 26, 2007, 08:04 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Apr 26, 2007, 07:13 AM

I can picture their place in my mind, how bout you? Paint us a picture in your own words folks, of what your idea of an *everyday* life on Jack and Ennis's ranch .... I'm fascinated and intrigued by this . . . Any takers?

Like Ennis, I ain't so good with words - but here's how I see 'em possibly. They don't have much cash so it's not gonna be a place up in the mountains - way to expensive. But how 'bout a nice factory built home Near the mountains, nuthin' too fancy. Some outbuilding for the animals and equipment, trucks. A few horses for Ennis, a few cattle. Good enough to do some ranching at least for starters. No nosey neighbors for miles, a little intermittant creek near the house, but lots more water up in the mountains where they could go fishin'

A little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life . . .

Oh, give me a home where the Buffalo roam
Where the Deer and the Antelope play;
Where never is heard a discouraging word,
And the sky is not clouded all day.

welshwitch · « **Reply #56 on:** Apr 26, 2007, 01:22 PM »

I love the pic, specially the mountains in the distance. Shows how little I know about ranching, though I've seeen enough ranching country - I always envision them as surrounded by trees,away from prying eyes, I guess.

tpe · « **Reply #57 on:** Apr 27, 2007, 08:02 AM »

I do get the feeling that relative isolation would be part of the "sweet life". I think both of them were desirous of not calling attention to themselves...

aintfoolin · « **Reply #58 on:** Apr 28, 2007, 05:58 PM »

Certainly it would have to be an almost islolated peice of land where they could have privacy. I see a large grassy area with lots of trees, fenced in of course. A small but decent sized log style home. Inside would sport a southwesten style ,and yes must have a fireplace for them to suggle in front of on cold nights., Deer heads? Maybe. Jack would handle he business part, while Ennis works mostly with the animals according to heir gifts in these areas.

Before any of this is realized though Jack would have to find a way to convince Ennis to agree to it . This is where Jack would greatly be helped by the only other person in Ennis's life that he trusts and loves : Alma Jr. and Jenny. Alma Jr. knew about her father and Jack. both his daughers were old enough to remember meeting Jack in the divorce scene and as grown women looking back had to figure this whole thing out. Maybe a long talk with Alma Jr. would go a long way in helping to convince Ennis to quell his fears enough to give it a shot. Knowing he was'nt gonna loose the love of his girls may have been the key. My veiws.

jackster · « **Reply #59 on:** Apr 28, 2007, 06:29 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Apr 28, 2007, 05:58 PM

This is where Jack would greatly be helped by the only other person in Ennis's life that he trusts and loves: Alma Jr. and Jenny. Alma Jr. knew about her father and Jack. both his daughers were old enough to remember meeting Jack in the divorce scene and as grown women looking back had to figure this whole thing out.

Well here ya' go - Let's make the leap that Junior did figure it all out with Jack long ago (always been my assumption with that "Maybe he's not the marrying kind" remark to Cassie (OT, in other words "you're barking up the wrong tree honey"). Anyway, since Jr. knows 'bout all this and still truly loves her dad she must be pretty "enlightened", so she probably picks a hubby that's pretty cool about this too. If Kurt's a roughneck he must be pretty able in the physical dept. what if Junior convinces Kurt to help Ennis and Jack run the operation as a ranch hand? Junior's probably the only one that's finished High School so she does the books, Jack's in Sales (of course) and Ennis handles the operational (animal and equipment) aspects of the "You Bet Ranch".