Topic: Lightning Flat

[tpe]

Is there anyone besides me who finds mountains overwhelming?  Visiting Colorado, I felt hemmed in by the mountains, stifled, weighed down.  I have heard of others who feel the same way, but don't know how prevalent this feeling is.  I love the look of the mountains, and love the idea of the isolation and the pristine nature they represent, but know I could never live in them.  As we seem to be saying, the mountains defined, in part, the relationship between Ennis and Jack.  The mountains' immovability and immutability seem to be echoed in Jack and Ennis's  relationship.  They are alone together in an unchanging, static situation.  Nothing really changes in 20 years and it doesn't seem as if anything ever will change.  No one else knows about their relationship, as far as the two men know.  (Of course, WE know Alma knows!) The mountains have enclosed them in more ways than one.

I have always loved mountains.  I have loved the elevations better than seas -- and in the place I grew up, I had both.  I miss mountains exceedingly.  Here in Chicago, all mountains are man-made.

But there is something awesome about the great flatlands, especially in the middle of great thunderstorms.  I can almost image the feeling when such storms pass over LF.  IN the middle of it all, you feel insignificant. Land and sky swallow you up.

[welshwitch]

I love mountains - conditioned by years of reading literature, maybe. I like to see them on the horizon, I like to look down from them and I like to be in among them - the fact that they dwarf a human being is what I like, as I love the open spaces of the desert. there is something in "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help" even if you don't believe.

I'm not very superstitious, but up in the mountains ( the Rockies) was the only place I have ever seen a ghost - sensed things in other places but not seen them.The mountains were always the abode of gods and spirits - I guess they still are.

[tpe]

I love mountains - conditioned by years of reading literature, maybe. I like to see them on the horizon, I like to look down from them and I like to be in among them - the fact that they dwarf a human being is what I like, as I love the open spaces of the desert. there is something in "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help" even if you don't believe.

I'm not very superstitious, but up in the mountains ( the Rockies) was the only place I have ever seen a ghost - sensed things in other places but not seen them.The mountains were always the abode of gods and spirits - I guess they still are.

How interesting.  I do sense something very spiritual in mountains.  And at the cloudy summits, I dream a dream of Chinese literati landscapes...

THe plains are a different matter.  It is not the same sense of spirituality.  You get the feeling of infinity.  And your insignificance.  In LF, does time stand still?

[welshwitch]

Their time in the mointains was atime out of time. In LF time passed - we can see that from the relics of Jack's past, his room and childhood toys. And of course the shirts.

[tpe]

Their time in the mointains was atime out of time. In LF time passed - we can see that from the relics of Jack's past, his room and childhood toys. And of course the shirts.

Yes, this was the impression I got: time stood still or moved very slowly.  Everything seemed to be in the realm of memory, or under the shadow of memory.

[lamusica]

I agree about the spirituality of mountains, but it is in the wide openness of the prairie land thatO was raised and find my freedom.  When out among the acres and acres of growing corn, soybeans, milo, wheat, etc., the sight of a soaring hawk or eagle brings tears to my eyes.
Well, I think we resonate to the type of landscape in which we were born,or spent a big portion of out life, perhaps.  That is why I am suggesting the mountains belonged to J and E and vice-versa.  Their lives were defined, in part, by the mountains.  Except for the reunion and motel scene, their lives together was in the mountains.

[tpe]

I agree about the spirituality of mountains, but it is in the wide openness of the prairie land thatO was raised and find my freedom.  When out among the acres and acres of growing corn, soybeans, milo, wheat, etc., the sight of a soaring hawk or eagle brings tears to my eyes.
Well, I think we resonate to the type of landscape in which we were born,or spent a big portion of out life, perhaps.  That is why I am suggesting the mountains belonged to J and E and vice-versa.  Their lives were defined, in part, by the mountains.  Except for the reunion and motel scene, their lives together was in the mountains.

I thought it was the relative isolation of the mountains that drew them there.  But to bring Ennis back to LF to live a life together -- perhaps this indicated that Jack still harkened back to the traditional notion of a homestead, as is rooted in the mytrhology of the Great Plains.

[welshwitch]

It's also practical - the mountains may shelter and surround them, b=cutting them off from the outside world, but they;re not a sensible proposition in the winter - it's obvious that they couldn't meet there then. And they're not a practical proposition if you have to earn a living year-round either.

LF seems to me to offer isolation - it's not part of or even apparently very near a town, and it's in an area of spar** population. But it also offers somewher to earn a living, and to me a place where Jack, if he and Ennis succeeded, could say to his father, in effect, "Look what I've achieved that you didn't."

Why can't this stupid system cope with a word like S.P.A.R.S. E   

[tpe]

It's also practical - the mountains may shelter and surround them, b=cutting them off from the outside world, but they;re not a sensible proposition in the winter - it's obvious that they couldn't meet there then. And they're not a practical proposition if you have to earn a living year-round either.

LF seems to me to offer isolation - it's not part of or even apparently very near a town, and it's in an area of spar** population. But it also offers somewher to earn a living, and to me a place where Jack, if he and Ennis succeeded, could say to his father, in effect, "Look what I've achieved that you didn't."

Why can't this stupid system cope with a word like S.P.A.R.S. E   

I think the relative isolation of LF was one of the reasons why Jack considered it.  Ennis would not have objected too much, in Jack's mind, if their living together did not call attention to themselves. 

It is interesting how both the mountains (BBM) and the plains (in this case, LF) could offer them the relative isolation that they needed.  But Brokeback Mountain seemed to give us a sense of peace, whereas LF gives us a feeling of loneliness.

[jackster]

Is there anyone besides me who finds mountains overwhelming?  Visiting Colorado, I felt hemmed in by the mountains, stifled, weighed down.  I have heard of others who feel the same way, but don't know how prevalent this feeling is. 

Annie Proulx, speaking in Casper last October about cowboys mythology and the west, recalled how people from Wyoming she knew felt hemmed in and stifled back east because you couldn't see "anything". The vistas are typically so much shorter and there's all those darn forests and trees everywhere. They couldn't wait to get back out west so they could breath again in the wide open spaces. I guess it works both ways, depending on what's familiar and comfortable.

[jstephens9]

I am from and still live in the mountains of North Carolina. Sometimes it makes me feel strange to be in a flat place where you can see so far. Here nothing is level. My sister lived in Texas for a long time and she said when she moved back here that everything you did required the effort of either going up or down. She is used to it again now. I actually live on the side of a mountain in an original log cabin.

Jack

[lamusica]

There are different types of mountains, too.  Yours are beautiful, to me, jackster.  I love the Smokies and have driven through the White Mts., the Green Mts. and several parts of Appalachia.  I found those mountains soft, verdant, inviting, friendly.  The Rockies are scary to me.  The  southern mountain ranges are particularly barren. Well, I'm just saying that topography is important to me.  I think most people are comfortable in a particular type of setting.  Obviously, the mountains similar to BBM were welcoming to Jack and Ennis.
Someone said above that it is harder to find real obscurity anywhere today, but in any of the vast mountain ranges in North America, this is still available.  Although civilization seems to be encroaching everywhere, we're talking aboiut vast miles of emptiness ( empty of humanity) where two people could disappear quite easily even today.  Perhaps that is part of what unnerves me.  The fact that these are primeval places to which one could go and from which one may never return.

[tpe]

I am from and still live in the mountains of North Carolina. Sometimes it makes me feel strange to be in a flat place where you can see so far. Here nothing is level. My sister lived in Texas for a long time and she said when she moved back here that everything you did required the effort of either going up or down. She is used to it again now. I actually live on the side of a mountain in an original log cabin.

Jack

Thanks Jack.

Now why didn't Jack consider doing something like this when he was dreaming of a sweet life with Ennis?  Wouldn't it have been something for them to live in a cabin by the side of BBM, as opposed to ranching up in LF?  If Ennis was into cattle, than I would suppose that they could have made the transition to sheep or goat herding. 

I guess the answer lies in their never really going back to BBM.  For them, it was a sacred place where they would never return.

[tpe]

Thanks Jackster and lamusica.

The beauty of mountains also resonates with me.   The plains have a different kind of beauty, I suppose -- something more difficult to appreciate compared to mountains.  In some ways, both can engulf you -- leave you with a sense of smallness in comparison to each vastness.

[jackster]

Someone said above that it is harder to find real obscurity anywhere today, but in any of the vast mountain ranges in North America, this is still available. Although civilization seems to be encroaching everywhere, we're talking about vast miles of emptiness where two people could disappear quite easily even today.

VERY true lamusica. After seeing Annie in Casper I drove three hours over to Riverton and Lander, about 150 miles. I passed twelve cars in three hours! When you drive 30 minutes at 60 mph and don't see a single person you get a much different sense of "personal space"! It is unnerving for a while especially when your alone. Makes you think about what it's like to be truely all alone way up on that mountain. Jack up on the mountain, Ennis down in camp (or vice-versa) by themselves mostly. Sometimes a whole day (or maybe more) would go by without seeing each other or anyone else of course. Makes you wonder what Jack was thinkin' when he came back to camp and Ennis wasn't there (when he got thrown), what would Jack do if he didn't show up? If he'd been badly injured by the throw and was lying somewhere in the dark. You couldn't go out looking at night. No wonder he was so secretly happy when Ennis finally showed up.

[aintfoolin]

 I agree, If you don't live in a mountainous area, they can be quite intimidating. I drove from Pa. to New York City alone one time and went through some of these areas. The steep roads are very scary, especially if two semi-trucks hem ya in. driving a small Fiat  car at the time in this situation was no fun . I felt *closed in* and scared and phobic. Never again .

[welshwitch]

Actually when I think about it, it's true that the Appalachians/Great Smokies, whatever are much less intimidating than the Rockies - in some way you can comprehend the former - see a distance from them, see their extent. The Rockies seem enormous from a distance and unreachable - well, I thought so when we were driving the Oregon Trail - and when you're in among them almost impossible to escape from. Enclosing is maybe the word, which is what they did for J and E up on BBM of course.

[lamusica]

I paint a good deal, and often paint mountains of all sorts.  Often lonely tumble-down ranches on flats like LF with mountains in the distance.  I find great beauty in the loneliness of those types of settings.  Again, great to visit in a painting, but wouldn't want to live there.  Once had the opporyunity to do some watercolors while standing in a freshwater creek in the Smokies.  Talk about a beautiful setting!
       I'm sure Jack and Ennis loved the mountains.  To them, they symbolized an opporunity to be together without fear or worry --- well worth the drive to get there from Texas.

[ethan]

Sorry for not reading this thread earlier.

Here is a pic of map I got from Wyoming Tourism board.



Lightning Flat is shown on the map but there was no sign actually showing it. As you can see from the map, it is very close to the boarder to Montana. The landscape is very flat. Below is the link to the photos I took last summer in Wyoming.

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=5695.msg179978#msg179978

[tpe]

Sorry for not reading this thread earlier.

Here is a pic of map I got from Wyoming Tourism board.



Lightning Flat is shown on the map but there was no sign actually showing it. As you can see from the map, it is very close to the boarder to Montana. The landscape is very flat. Below is the link to the photos I took last summer in Wyoming.

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=5695.msg179978#msg179978

Thanks Ethan.

Would you consider going back to LF?  I think not, perhaps? 

Jack must have been driven inside of himself to even consider going back and settling there.  I don't think it was just because he grew up there.  Many of us end up never really returning to the place of our birth to start life afresh...

[ethan]

Thanks Ethan.

Would you consider going back to LF?  I think not, perhaps? 

Jack must have been driven inside of himself to even consider going back and settling there.  I don't think it was just because he grew up there.  Many of us end up never really returning to the place of our birth to start life afresh...

My pleasure. LF is a place as remote as one can get. I can't even imagine living in that place. As I was driving through the area, I already felt the loneliness. You are right that Jack must have felt something to even consider going back and settling there. If Ennis would come alone, it probably would be a sweet life.

[tpe]

My pleasure. LF is a place as remote as one can get. I can't even imagine living in that place. As I was driving through the area, I already felt the loneliness. You are right that Jack must have felt something to even consider going back and settling there. If Ennis would come alone, it probably would be a sweet life.

Here with a Loaf of Bread beneath the Bough,
A Flask of Wine, a Book of Verse--and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness--
And Wilderness is Paradise enow.

[welshwitch]

then of course there's Keats:

Love in a hut, with water and a crust,
Is- Love, forgive us! - cinders, ashes, dust.

Cynic that I am, I wonder how long it would have been before Jack wanted something more than isolation out " way the hell out in the middle of nowhere."

[tpe]

then of course there's Keats:

Love in a hut, with water and a crust,
Is- Love, forgive us! - cinders, ashes, dust.

Cynic that I am, I wonder how long it would have been before Jack wanted something more than isolation out " way the hell out in the middle of nowhere."

I suspect that LF with Ennis would have suited him sufficiently.  I suspect that it was Ennis that mattered more.