Topic: Short Changed

[manhattangirl]

From '63 to '83 Jack and Ennis at the end really never rose above from where they started.   Ennis still working from ranch to ranch. Jack even though he married in to money, it wasn't his.  He was really just the another salesman.  They started with nothing of their own, and ended the same way.

But the one thing they did have was their love, no matter how painful it could be, no matter the distance, the separations, the battle of commitment,  their love was strong and lasted to the end.

I was wondering as they got older, and realized the future was not exactly an infinite thing anymore, was there ever that feeling of being short changed in life, and how do you think each man looked at it.

Forgive me if this subject was already discussed.

  

[jackster]

MG: Interestin Q. Maybe this is what your refering too, if so sorry I was to dense to get it: 

From the SS, just after the divorce:

Ennis went back to ranch work, hired on here and there, not getting much ahead but glad enough to be around stock again, free to drop things, quit if he had to, and go into the mountains at short notice. He had no serious hard feelings, just a vague sense of getting short changed, and showed it was all right by taking Thanksgiving dinner with Alma and her grocer and the kids . . . ."

We never really see them in conjunction with people they considered their contemporaries (except the fund raiser) so it's hard for me to get a picture of how they felt in relation to others later in life. Annie tells us where they started:

"both high school drop out country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough mannered, rough spoken, inured to the stoic life."

I feel this is certainly where we leave Ennis in '83 - "ya got nuthin, ya don't need nuthin". Jack certainly had broadened his vision of the material world by the time he died. But it may be that his spiritual world was still deeply locked in that time up on Brokeback in '63 when "There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air . . ." As Lureen says, It was his favorite place.

[tpe]

I think Ennis was stoic enough not to really expect that much from life, and so I suspect that he did not feel short-changed.

I suspect that Jack probably felt short-changed, but more emotionally, rather than financially. 

I think Jack became bitter about Ennis's refusal to live with him, and this, more than anything else, probably contributed to his drinking problem during the later years.  Unlike Ennis, Jack wanted more out of life, and he was not happy to just take whatever comes stoically. 

True, Jack I think continued to hope that Ennis would turn around and finally agree to a life together, but as year after year passed without any change, I think the sense of disappointment and loss consumed Jack in a way that Ennis could not understand.

As I had said before, had Ennis been less stoic, things would have probably been better for him and Jack.

[welshwitch]

I think Ennis may have felt that he's had a fairly hard life, but that it's no more than he expected, so he's not likely to feel resentful Jack, on the other hand, always had ambitions, of being a successful bull-rider, of coming back to his father's ranch and making something of it, of having the sweet life with Ennis  - as his fatehr says, in a rather spiteful way, he's a dreamer. Dreamers often become disillusioned cynics - I think Jack may well have felt, perched on the edge of the Newsome family, largely ignored by Lureen, with a son who has problems, his only important relationship ecoming more and more difficult, that life has dealt him a poor ahnd.

[jackster]

I think Jack may well have felt, perched on the edge of the Newsome family, largely ignored by Lureen, with a son who has problems, his only important relationship ecoming more and more difficult, that life has dealt him a poor hand.

Well put WW, I like that "perched on the edge" - in Jack's own words in May 1983 . . .

"But  f * c k  all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin' never come to my hand the right way."

[lamusica]

I think their final scene together makes clear that they both had some feelings of being short-changed.  I', not sure if Ennis really blamed anybody for that.  He just expected life to be hard, so wasn't surprised when it turned out that way.  Jack, on the other hand, blamed Ennis for being short-changed.  Ennis could have, in Jack's mind, made everything better had he gone along with Jack's  ideas from the beginning.  The fact that Ennis cries that Jack made him the way he is tells us he is aware that he did not become all he could have become.  He allowed himself to be kept down ( a nobody, nowhere, etc.)  I think these feelings are what is behind their argument.  Once they got it out of their system, they could go on with their lives as Annie says in the SS.

[manhattangirl]

Some of us fall into the trap of pinning our hopes on someone else, Jack was guilty of that one, he hung on the that one hope that Ennis would change and make things all better, failing to understand the turmoil Ennis was going through.  Jack was yelling "Save me",  but Ennis couldn't even  get pass his own pain.

Jackster you're right, I couldn't help but wonder Jack and Ennis had expectations of their lives as young men, but like real life it sometimes doesn't work the way we expected, it didn't work that way for them.  That one sentence in ss intrigued me, " just a vague sense of being short changed",  sum it up for me,  I was wondering how the rest of you felt.   

[tpe]

I think their final scene together makes clear that they both had some feelings of being short-changed.  I', not sure if Ennis really blamed anybody for that.  He just expected life to be hard, so wasn't surprised when it turned out that way.  Jack, on the other hand, blamed Ennis for being short-changed.  Ennis could have, in Jack's mind, made everything better had he gone along with Jack's  ideas from the beginning.  The fact that Ennis cries that Jack made him the way he is tells us he is aware that he did not become all he could have become.  He allowed himself to be kept down ( a nobody, nowhere, etc.)  I think these feelings are what is behind their argument.  Once they got it out of their system, they could go on with their lives as Annie says in the SS.

Perhaps you are right in that it appears evident from the last meeting that Ennis also felt short-changed.  I must emphasize "feel", nonetheless.  As was discussed before in previous threads, we are not entirely sure if Ennis could really have blamed Jack for the hard life he endured.  He was probably finding it convenient to blame Jack at that point -- it is so unlike Ennis to blame anyone under normal circumstances.

But the feeling is real, and it was probably born out of frustration that he too had to endure the hardship of not being with Jack.

[welshwitch]

And in the earlier years of taking a series of temporary low-paid jobs so that he could dump them to see Jack, having been stuck in the same place for twenty years, having to pay child support for so long while the girls were living with someone who was so much better off than Ennis was, and of having nothing to show for it all at the end - he didn't apparently know about Alma Jr's feelings till later.

In contrast Jack rolls up each time in new clothes with a newer, better pickup - can come and go easily, has money and a comfortable home - it must look to Ennis as though Jack has a much easier time, and maybe in material terms he does. But he's as lonely as Ennis - that " we could do it over the phone" comment ought to have told Ennis something, and the casual mention of casual sex with the ranch-foreman's wife.

[lamusica]

I think we have an idea of how Ennis feels about himself after Jack dies, but I couldn't ever get a handle on how Jack felt about himself after their argument.  Jack was major pissed, for sure, but what did he do then?  When he left, did he go to Mexico again?  Did he go home and start up with Randall right away?  Did his anger last and lead to his death?  Just wondering here.  As was mentioned somewhere in one of the threads recently, Jack was not given to too much introspection.  The argument with Ennis sort of negates that idea in my mind.  He must have been thinking hard about Ennis and their relationship to go off so quickly just because Ennis lagged in telling him he couldn't do August.  That's why I think Jack was looking for a change of some sort where Ennis was concerned ( not dropping Ennis, but changing their status quo somehow).

[manhattangirl]

IMO,   He went to where he always went where he always went after his time with Ennis, LF, where he could still be with Ennis,  hidden in his closet.   What he was thinking, or feeling, who could answer that one.   It just the look on his face, the remembrance of the "dozy embrace", and his love for Ennis, makes me believe, makes me hope he'd give his love a fighting chance. 

The love they had for each other was real, theirs, and could own it, even if they had nothing else to call their own.

[tpe]

And in the earlier years of taking a series of temporary low-paid jobs so that he could dump them to see Jack, having been stuck in the same place for twenty years, having to pay child support for so long while the girls were living with someone who was so much better off than Ennis was, and of having nothing to show for it all at the end - he didn't apparently know about Alma Jr's feelings till later.

In contrast Jack rolls up each time in new clothes with a newer, better pickup - can come and go easily, has money and a comfortable home - it must look to Ennis as though Jack has a much easier time, and maybe in material terms he does. But he's as lonely as Ennis - that " we could do it over the phone" comment ought to have told Ennis something, and the casual mention of casual sex with the ranch-foreman's wife.

I wonder if the economic disparity between them ever bothered Ennis (or Jack, for that matter).   Could he have felt any resentment about Jack being better off through his marriage? 

Even before the marriage to Alma, it seemed that Jack was already a bit better off than Ennis.  The fact that Jack offered money to Ennis and Ennis rejecting the offer seems to indicate that Ennis had an awareness of his "neediness" and that his pride did not permit him to act in such a way that acknowledges his "neediness".   So Ennis is an enigma in this regard: it is possible that he had always felt the disparity acutely, but that he was too prould to even acknowledge this to himself.

 

[tpe]

I think we have an idea of how Ennis feels about himself after Jack dies, but I couldn't ever get a handle on how Jack felt about himself after their argument.  Jack was major pissed, for sure, but what did he do then?  When he left, did he go to Mexico again?  Did he go home and start up with Randall right away?  Did his anger last and lead to his death?  Just wondering here.  As was mentioned somewhere in one of the threads recently, Jack was not given to too much introspection.  The argument with Ennis sort of negates that idea in my mind.  He must have been thinking hard about Ennis and their relationship to go off so quickly just because Ennis lagged in telling him he couldn't do August.  That's why I think Jack was looking for a change of some sort where Ennis was concerned ( not dropping Ennis, but changing their status quo somehow).

I think the remembrance of the Dozy Embrace indicates that Jack in the end felt resigned that they could only go so far.  He realized that it had always been this way, and that the Dozy Embrace reminded him that even with this, he could find contentment.  I think that in the end, he did not feel short-changed; rather, he came to the realization that although the love will never disappear, the dream of a shared life was never going to happen.  He realized that even this could not kill his love for Ennis.  But he also realized that some things were never meant to be.  Let be.  Let be.

[tpe]

The love they had for each other was real, theirs, and could own it, even if they had nothing else to call their own.

Yes, in the end, I think Jack realized that this was the one and only thing he had and cherished the most.  Nothing else, even not having a sweet life, could destroy it.  This is why I think in the end, Jack realized that in what mattetred the most, he could not say that he was short-changed.

[manhattangirl]

But you tpe, this why he drank heavily at the end of his life, he watch his lover retreat deeper into himself, if that was Ennis was doing at the end, and couldn't do anything about it.  AP described that final meeting as like a pulling, twisting by the both of them of their relationship, but not resolving anything. 

But what I really don't understand, and wish any of can help on this one, Ennis blames Jack, am I wrong on this one, what did he really mean when said to Jack, "Its because you I'm like this", this line I must admit bothers me,  "I"m nothing, I'm nowhere".

What was  Ennis telling Jack?  What did he really mean?

[jackster]

MG: In a final screenplay, one that has scenes not included in the film, after Jack's line "I Wish I knew how to quit you" Ennis responds:

"Then why don't you?! Why, why do you keep after me? I could lick this. I know I could. But you -- it's you, don't you see? It's because of you I'm like this. You scratch two words on a postcard, I come runnin' like a dog. And I don't understand it, and I never wanted it. I just don't want it. Why don't you let me be? It's 'cause of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nuthin', I'm nowhere."

Puts this into a different light. Ennis felt he was trapped by his own love for Jack, a force (of nature) he couldn't resist and didn't really understand. Of course this is an incendiary exchange, Ennis is "heart-struck" by Jack's admission and is saying things here he may not truly mean (I don't want it) but which he nonetheless may feel inside. What he didn't want was who he was (homosexual). IMO Ang edited this down and made Ennis' words much more ambiguous, which was good because it allows us each to fill in the spaces. But it does make for a more vague understanding. Just MHO.

[manhattangirl]

MG: In a final screenplay, one that has scenes not included in the film, after Jack's line "I Wish I knew how to quit you" Ennis responds:

"Then why don't you?! Why, why do you keep after me? I could lick this. I know I could. But you -- it's you, don't you see? It's because of you I'm like this. You scratch two words on a postcard, I come runnin' like a dog. And I don't understand it, and I never wanted it. I just don't want it. Why don't you let me be? It's 'cause of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nuthin', I'm nowhere."

Puts this into a different light. Ennis felt he was trapped by his own love for Jack, a force (of nature) he couldn't resist and didn't really understand. Of course this is an incendiary exchange, Ennis is "heart-struck" by Jack's admission and is saying things here he may not truly mean (I don't want it) but which he nonetheless may feel inside. What he didn't want was who he was (homosexual). IMO Ang edited this down and made Ennis' words much more ambiguous, which was good because it allows us each to fill in the spaces. But it does make for a more vague understanding. Just MHO.

Tears are in my eyes, I never knew.   I always had a feeling that this story was somewhat incomplete, fear of discovery couldn't be all of what Ennis was feeling.  Some how his need and love for Jack, was his biggest battle, this one passage is the most gut wrenching I've read.   Now I have to rethink in my own mind, this whole story, not saying its will change the story for me, now I feel free to go in other directions.  Thanks Jackster, I thought it was finished but its not, is it? 

[tpe]

But you tpe, this why he drank heavily at the end of his life, he watch his lover retreat deeper into himself, if that was Ennis was doing at the end, and couldn't do anything about it.  AP described that final meeting as like a pulling, twisting by the both of them of their relationship, but not resolving anything. 

But what I really don't understand, and wish any of can help on this one, Ennis blames Jack, am I wrong on this one, what did he really mean when said to Jack, "Its because you I'm like this", this line I must admit bothers me,  "I"m nothing, I'm nowhere".

What was  Ennis telling Jack?  What did he really mean?

But that was why I said "in the end": when he remembered the "Dozy Embrace."  That led him to the realization that it had always been this way, and yet, he had known contentment.

There is an entire thread that discusses the meaining of "Its because you I'm like this" and "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere".  Do take a look at it!  If you can't find it in the index of topics, I will post a link to it here later. 

[tpe]

The topic I alluded to in the above post is here:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=794.msg6993#msg6993

[welshwitch]

If you've ever been in love, and that love hasn't been returned, or not in the way you want, you know exactly what Ennis means when he says "It's because of you I'm like this." Love is so powerful that it can overwhelm your sense of yourself, your pride, even your survival instinct. You know you can't help yourself and that makes it worse. It can make you hate yourself for what you've found inside yourself - in Ennis's case he had two things to hate, his homosexual inclinations and his vulnerability.

[lamusica]

Beautifully stated, WW!

[manhattangirl]

Thanks tpe for the link, I've read it.   WW and Jackster, you've answer the question, that had been bugging me for the longest time.  It was too darn simplistic for me to believe that Ennis insistence of meeting out in the middle of nowhere was the a safe bet for them to avoid the fate of Rich and Earl, was his constant one note song for not living a life with Jack, his obligations to his kids had him move the date from August to November. 

All of this shifting reasons, always a new one as the years went on.   When the only real, and understandable reason IMO is the one that WW so beautifully put forth:

If you've ever been in love, and that love hasn't been returned, or not in the way you want, you know exactly what Ennis means when he says "It's because of you I'm like this." Love is so powerful that it can overwhelm your sense of yourself, your pride, even your survival instinct. You know you can't help yourself and that makes it worse. It can make you hate yourself for what you've found inside yourself - in Ennis's case he had two things to hate, his homosexual inclinations and his vulnerability.

Ennis was dealing his love for Jack, his overwhelming sexual desire for him, and at the same time fighting his homosexuality.  I don't understand why his sexuality should be so ambiguous, for what reason, the most compelling and heartbreaking thing is that he is denying himself and who he is.   I read Jackster post, and a light went on in side my head, (talking about open spaces in one's head),  anyway, this post made so much sense to me, now I could understand all of Ennis's pain, and not think of him as a one note coward, for denying himself a life with Jack, and denying him the love he needed so much.   If this was included in the final confrontation scene then this twenty year cat and mouse game would have made sense.

MG: In a final screenplay, one that has scenes not included in the film, after Jack's line "I Wish I knew how to quit you" Ennis responds:

"Then why don't you?! Why, why do you keep after me? I could lick this. I know I could. But you -- it's you, don't you see? It's because of you I'm like this. You scratch two words on a postcard, I come runnin' like a dog. And I don't understand it, and I never wanted it. I just don't want it. Why don't you let me be? It's 'cause of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nuthin', I'm nowhere."

Puts this into a different light. Ennis felt he was trapped by his own love for Jack, a force (of nature) he couldn't resist and didn't really understand. Of course this is an incendiary exchange, Ennis is "heart-struck" by Jack's admission and is saying things here he may not truly mean (I don't want it) but which he nonetheless may feel inside. What he didn't want was who he was (homosexual). IMO Ang edited this down and made Ennis' words much more ambiguous, which was good because it allows us each to fill in the spaces. But it does make for a more vague understanding. Just MHO.

He may have been just lashing out, but saying the words, showing all the pain he had, and what he invested and lost loving Jack, and the mamouth battle of suppressing his own sexuality would have made all the more understandable.  This was Ennis v. Ennis,  Jack was caught up in the cross fire.  Isn't this real life?   

Talking about short changing oneself,  Ennis did it big time. 

Thank you, I hope someone understands what I'm trying to say, please let me know what you think. 

 

[tpe]

If you've ever been in love, and that love hasn't been returned, or not in the way you want, you know exactly what Ennis means when he says "It's because of you I'm like this." Love is so powerful that it can overwhelm your sense of yourself, your pride, even your survival instinct. You know you can't help yourself and that makes it worse. It can make you hate yourself for what you've found inside yourself - in Ennis's case he had two things to hate, his homosexual inclinations and his vulnerability.

Very well said WW.  This goes to the heart of Ennis's statement.  Ennis's homosexuality is closely intertwised with his sense of vulnerability.  THis goes way beyond the feeling of being short-changed in life.  It is closer to a feeling of being cursed, perhaps?  Even in love, perhaps Ennis thought he was jinxed.

 

[tpe]

Thanks tpe for the link, I've read it.   

You're welcome, manhattangirl.  Feel free to add to that discussion if you so desire. 

[JT]

MG: In a final screenplay, one that has scenes not included in the film, after Jack's line "I Wish I knew how to quit you" Ennis responds:

"Then why don't you?! Why, why do you keep after me? I could lick this. I know I could. But you -- it's you, don't you see? It's because of you I'm like this. You scratch two words on a postcard, I come runnin' like a dog. And I don't understand it, and I never wanted it. I just don't want it. Why don't you let me be? It's 'cause of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nuthin', I'm nowhere."

Puts this into a different light. Ennis felt he was trapped by his own love for Jack, a force (of nature) he couldn't resist and didn't really understand. Of course this is an incendiary exchange, Ennis is "heart-struck" by Jack's admission and is saying things here he may not truly mean (I don't want it) but which he nonetheless may feel inside. What he didn't want was who he was (homosexual). IMO Ang edited this down and made Ennis' words much more ambiguous, which was good because it allows us each to fill in the spaces. But it does make for a more vague understanding. Just MHO.

Gosh, reading this makes me feel even more for them.  We knew Ennis has conflict and this made his conflict even deeper.  His love for Jack is something he can not control and consciously doesn't want.  As for Jack, if he listen to this, how can he possibily go on?  He would resign and let Ennis be.   :\'(

[aintfoolin]

To me this quote gives the impression that Jack was somehow *chasing* Ennis , stalking him against his wishes and making him respond in a way he does'nt want to.  Awww poor little baby Ennis! It beats all I ever heard concerning this. and makes no sense to me. As if some one gives a guy the *wrong phone number* in some bar just to get rid of him but the guy shows up at their  door step any way as an annoyance. . Only problem is Ennis did'nt throw the postcards in the garbage or not show up for the *fishing trips* time and time again. He could have but he  did'nt is the point. Jack did not need this drama.  Ennis is a complex, conflicted piece of work. Unable to come to terms with who he really is. He knows who he WANTS to be ..sometimes ...,or at least a part of him does imo. If he said this to Jack, Ennis was giving off a whole lot of mixed signals. Strung Jack along.SNIT and the RS contradicts all of this . He is fighting a part of himself that he cannot control. Had he made himself this clear sooner maybe  Jack would not have wasted/ suffered 20 years  of chasing a dream that could never be.This sounds to me like Ennis is placing his insecurities in the form of blame on Jack. Thank goodness THIS did'nt make the final cut . In any case, I'm not buying it.

[JT]

Yup!  Kind of contradict the way the film was suppose to be.  If Ennis truly want to push Jack away, then he should not have gotten mad at Jack's Mexico trips.  He wants Jack, he doesn't want Jack?  He's really messed up.  The conflict would have been deeper than we thought.  I think that was why it was cut.

[Ty]

MG: In a final screenplay, one that has scenes not included in the film, after Jack's line "I Wish I knew how to quit you" Ennis responds:

"Then why don't you?! Why, why do you keep after me? I could lick this. I know I could. But you -- it's you, don't you see? It's because of you I'm like this. You scratch two words on a postcard, I come runnin' like a dog. And I don't understand it, and I never wanted it. I just don't want it. Why don't you let me be? It's 'cause of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nuthin', I'm nowhere."

OH my gosh!!! Why did they leave this out?? :\'( :\'(

[aintfoolin]

 This quote puts Ennis in the "victim mentality * mode. When he refers to himself "I" it comes off as if he has been victimized by Jack. Puts himself in the sympathetic position every time.  It becomes clear when I hear his character saying: "I can lick this"- "I could"-, "I am like this" -, " I come runnin like a dog" -, I don't understand it" ( this may be true, but who does? it's called love) -, " I never wanted it" -, " I don't want it" , I'm like this , "I'm nowhere"  , " I'm nuthin" Well I guess  it's all about Ennis. in this quote cuz what's left after that? "  I hear : You" (Jack) are to blame for my circumstances. " You are responsible for my conflicts". My  situation is all your fault. " I'ts you Jack" Was it? Did he find love? or did he fall unconsious for 20 years?   Ennis fights a battle he cannot win, just does'nt know it and does'nt know how to, but it was right there all along imo ,Jack IS his other half. To hate his homosexuality is to hate Jack . His lover embraces his  sexuality so he could not do that either.  Could'nt live with Jack the way Jack wanted and could'nt live without him either.  Not Good.  He tasks me, but I can't help but love em though. He's such a delicious challenge!

[manhattangirl]

To me this quote gives the impression that Jack was somehow *chasing* Ennis , stalking him against his wishes and making him respond in a way he doesn't want to.  Awww poor little baby Ennis! It beats all I ever heard concerning this. and makes no sense to me. As if some one gives a guy the *wrong phone number* in some bar just to get rid of him but the guy shows up at their  door step any way as an annoyance. . Only problem is Ennis did'nt throw the postcards in the garbage or not show up for the *fishing trips* time and time again. He could have but he  did'nt is the point. Jack did not need this drama.  Ennis is a complex, conflicted piece of work. Unable to come to terms with who he really is. He knows who he WANTS to be ..sometimes ...,or at least a part of him does imo. If he said this to Jack, Ennis was giving off a whole lot of mixed signals. Strung Jack along.SNIT and the RS contradicts all of this . He is fighting a part of himself that he cannot control. Had he made himself this clear sooner maybe  Jack would not have wasted/ suffered 20 years  of chasing a dream that could never be.This sounds to me like Ennis is placing his insecurities in the form of blame on Jack. Thank goodness THIS did'nt make the final cut . In any case, I'm not buying it.

Wasn't this the underlining problem with them?    This "this thing" was always between them,  Ennis unable to accept  "this thing",  Why were they way out in the middle of nowhere in the first place?  Why the never ending excuses of going further in the relationship?    For the first time reading that passage that I understood  Ennis, his feelings, I guess this is kind of off topic.   It wasn't until my late thirties that I understood myself, even accepted myself.    I don't even want to think of the roads I had to go down to get to this point.  It wasn't until someone who knew what I was going through, who loved me enough to help me understand myself, my love for her, and the peace she brought in my life, that I finally understood who I was and embrace it, Oh I know Ennis, I was like Ennis.  But I was lucky, I understood it and gain so much, he understood it way too late, and lost so much. 

My love for this film goes so deep,  it's scary sometimes.   I'm way off topic guys, sorry.