Topic: Sobering Moments

[orangetruck]

  Think about Ennis - who in his life ever talked with him about what love meant?  Nobody!  But worse than that, in his entire shy life, who did he have to model any kind of partnership on?  Not Mom and Dad, they died too young, just as he might be getting interested in the ways people interact with one another, relationshipwise.  His sister marries and doesn't come back, and his brother marries and throws him out.  Talk about a lifetime of rejection as well as there being a lack of couples around him, interacting, to educate him. 
  And about the timing?  The worst.  Ever.   :\'(

Yeah 

No wonder, no matter how against his stoic grains, he found place and time for jack. Only around that Brokeback place where love accidentally happened, but no wonder.
Well educated no, but Ennis did have BB and JT as reference points; sometimes every four f***in' years, sometimes hanging by a nail in the closet, but he did have that.

 

[zephK]

Do we know that Ennis does say "I love you" to Jack in Jack's bedroom, while holding the shirts?

[orangetruck]

Do we know that Ennis does say "I love you" to Jack in Jack's bedroom, while holding the shirts?

Yes  :\'(
 :\'(

This movie has mastered always coming back to bite the viewer's ass.
So painfully ironic.

[jackster]

Do we know that Ennis does say "I love you" to Jack in Jack's bedroom, while holding the shirts?

What we do know is this - he felt it.
Proulx's beautiful rendition:
He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.

Ledger's flawless portrayal of this moment, leaves no doubt that the love was there in his hands and in his thoughts.
Just as Jack's love, also unspoken, is doubtless in his eyes as Ennis rides away from the Dozy Embrace.

Beautiful words translated masterfully into beautiful action without words. Great Art in our own time IMO.

[orangetruck]

What we do know is this - he felt it.
Proulx's beautiful rendition:
He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.

Ledger's flawless portrayal of this moment, leaves no doubt that the love was there in his hands and in his thoughts.
Just as Jack's love, also unspoken, is doubtless in his eyes as Ennis rides away from the Dozy Embrace.

Beautiful words translated masterfully into beautiful action without words. Great Art in our own time IMO.

Absolutely with you, here.

[zephK]

Oh, absolutely!  Ennis radiates so much love that it can be felt.  But I have talked with people who insist that he doesn't say anything there!  Go figure.

[orangetruck]

Oh, absolutely!  Ennis radiates so much love that it can be felt.  But I have talked with people who insist that he doesn't say anything there!  Go figure.

Eh, those people are just set in their ways. 

[aintfoolin]

Most of us can relate to or identify with these characters. ( not just Jack and Ennis ,either though they are the main topic)  We can all take lessons from the film. We can find moments  in this film where thoughts  or even a feeling  was defined , and we can apply it to our own lives.
 The sobering moments in this film are similar to some of our  own life experiences . fear, desperate mistakes,  divorce, jeaulosy ,infidelities, and abuse.  All in the name of love.. Perhaps this is really what keeps us coming back for more discussion about this honest  film. A sobering moment for me was just seeing this movie for the first time. I was touched, I felt their pain and I sympathized greatly.  I think I experienced every emotion God gave me while watching this .

 Ennis is the most compelling for me , but I was charmed  out of my socks for almost two hours by the  most endearing character called Jack Twist. I felt for him, wanted him to realize his dream of living with Ennis, and then he was gone. taken from Ennis , but I  also felt his loss. I was'nt ready. I never expected one so full of life, (potrayed beautifully by J. Gyllenhaal)  patience , optimism and  hope would not survive the film. 

I must say that Ennis receiving the postcard stamped DECEASED was definitly a sobering moment. This had to feel unbelivable to him.  Probably called Lureen in that half-hoping -it was'nt true ,- but so beleiving it is -mode , some big mistake. maybe  made by the post office. .. etc..The finality of it all was just stunning. I did not expect it at all. Ennis  learned a very valuable lesson  from Jack  Love is alive and well ...hanging on the door of his closet. : .....Jack +Ennis forever.



 

[tpe]

that walk into the dark is like a descent into hell - it must have shown Jack what his life was - a loveless marriage, rejection by the man he had loved for years, paid-for sex in a dark alley. Hardly surprising that /randall's offer was a wake-up call to show him that there was another way.

Yes, It has the feel of the opening of the Inferno.


Ahi quanto a dir qual era è cosa dura
esta selva selvaggia e aspra e forte
che nel pensier rinova la paura!

Tant’ è amara che poco è più morte;
ma per trattar del ben ch’i’ vi trovai,
dirò de l’altre cose ch’i’ v’ho scorte.


Ah me! how hard a thing it is to say
What was this forest savage, rough, and stern,
Which in the very thought renews the fear.

So bitter is it, death is little more;
But of the good to treat, which there I found,
Speak will I of the other things I saw there.

[tpe]

Great and insightful posts zephK, orangetruck, aintfoolin.

I second.  Wonderful exchange.  Thank you!

[tpe]

For Jack, ...

Large was his bounty, and his soul sincere,
Heaven did a recompense as largely send:
He gave to Misery all he had, a tear,
He gained from Heaven ('twas all he wish'd) a friend.

’Tis true, ’tis certain; man, though dead, retains
Part of himself; the immortal mind remains

(Pope -- on the Death of Patroclus)

[lamusica]

What we do know is this - he felt it.
Proulx's beautiful rendition:
He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.

Ledger's flawless portrayal of this moment, leaves no doubt that the love was there in his hands and in his thoughts.
Just as Jack's love, also unspoken, is doubtless in his eyes as Ennis rides away from the Dozy Embrace.

Beautiful words translated masterfully into beautiful action without words. Great Art in our own time IMO.

This is so beautifully stated.  I fully agree that Ennis FELT it, but I just don't think he knew it for what it was -- love.  I think, to Ennis, it was a feeling of Jack being his other half -- someone he didn't want to live without -- someone he thought about all the time, and wanted to be with, but just couldn't work it out in him mind how to do that.  Great discussion, All.

[tpe]

This is so beautifully stated.  I fully agree that Ennis FELT it, but I just don't think he knew it for what it was -- love.  I think, to Ennis, it was a feeling of Jack being his other half -- someone he didn't want to live without -- someone he thought about all the time, and wanted to be with, but just couldn't work it out in him mind how to do that.  Great discussion, All.

Yes, this is a good distinction.  Sometimes, love comes only after a recognition of one's soulmate.  There is a difference, to be sure.  Love entails unconditional desire, whereas recognition of one's "other half" is to recognize that we are all incomplete, and therefore always seeking for that which completes us.

[jackster]

I fully agree that Ennis FELT it, but I just don't think he knew it for what it was -- love. 

For myself, I think he did know, but not until this "sobering moment". To me, I think he finally realizes it is love, here in the closet, and it effects him deeply. Deeply enough to prompt him to actually take the shirt(s), not an insignificant act for Ennis, for he knows that when he walks downstairs with that shirt in his hands he's admitting his love (his homosexual love) to Jack's mother and father (might as well be the world to Ennis). And by impication Jack's love for him also, though this may be only clear to Jack's mother who must have known that it's actually a pair of shirts.

[orangetruck]

For myself, I think he did know, but not until this "sobering moment". To me, I think he finally realizes it is love, here in the closet, and it effects him deeply. Deeply enough to prompt him to actually take the shirt(s), not an insignificant act for Ennis, for he knows that when he walks downstairs with that shirt in his hands he's admitting his love (his homosexual love) to Jack's mother and father (might as well be the world to Ennis). And by impication Jack's love for him also, though this may be only clear to Jack's mother who must have known that it's actually a pair of shirts.

Agreed. 

[tpe]

For myself, I think he did know, but not until this "sobering moment". To me, I think he finally realizes it is love, here in the closet, and it effects him deeply. Deeply enough to prompt him to actually take the shirt(s), not an insignificant act for Ennis, for he knows that when he walks downstairs with that shirt in his hands he's admitting his love (his homosexual love) to Jack's mother and father (might as well be the world to Ennis). And by impication Jack's love for him also, though this may be only clear to Jack's mother who must have known that it's actually a pair of shirts.

Again, well said.  And yes, I believe that his coming down with the shirts was an admission or confirmation of his love for Jack.

[aintfoolin]

For myself, I think he did know, but not until this "sobering moment". To me, I think he finally realizes it is love, here in the closet, and it effects him deeply. Deeply enough to prompt him to actually take the shirt(s), not an insignificant act for Ennis, for he knows that when he walks downstairs with that shirt in his hands he's admitting his love (his homosexual love) to Jack's mother and father (might as well be the world to Ennis). And by impication Jack's love for him also, though this may be only clear to Jack's mother who must have known that it's actually a pair of shirts.

This is  so beautifully put Jackster. And it had to be a very sobering moment when Mrs. Twist stepped out that door and came face to face with Ennis for the first time. She had heard much about him, unbeknownst to Ennis from Jack.  Finally,  This is Ennis, Jack's * friend* she must have thought.

Ennis held in his hands a culmination of every battle he had, With society, himself and his homosexual love for Jack. It was  his confirmation indeed. Now, with lessons learned, he could live on. He had living proof.,that Jack's love for him  lived and would never die....Another sobering moment. Thanks.

She treated him with respect and kindness.

[manhattangirl]

Mrs. Twist wanted Ennis to come back.   She needed someone who loved Jack as much as she did in her life.   There was no grieving from the old man, just anger and resentment.   She knew Ennis loved Jack, and Jack loved him.   This is who her son chose to love and she respected that, after all she kept his room the way it was since he was little boy, and he appreciated that, she accepted Ennis and she knew he'd appreciate that too.   

[aintfoolin]

Your so right MG.   She and Jack probably had some very intimate discussion about Jack's love for Ennis huh? But I don;t think she expected to ever meet him.
Probably felt she had almost gained a son through her son's death. And Ennis finally gets a surrogate mother too. I think Ennis could have handled Mr. Twist . Two stubborn mules butting heads I can see it now.

[tpe]

Mrs. Twist wanted Ennis to come back.   She needed someone who loved Jack as much as she did in her life.   There was no grieving from the old man, just anger and resentment.   She knew Ennis loved Jack, and Jack loved him.   This is who her son chose to love and she respected that, after all she kept his room the way it was since he was little boy, and he appreciated that, she accepted Ennis and she knew he'd appreciate that too.   

Beautifully said.

I do think seeing Ennis bring down the shirts was a moment of confirmation for Mrs. Twist.  She now knew without a doubt who Ennis really was, and therefore her invitiation as a means of trying to keep a part of Jack with her -- within her lonely life.

[tpe]

Your so right MG.   She and Jack probably had some very intimate discussion about Jack's love for Ennis huh? But I don;t think she expected to ever meet him.
Probably felt she had almost gained a son through her son's death. And Ennis finally gets a surrogate mother too. I think Ennis could have handled Mr. Twist . Two stubborn mules butting heads I can see it now.

Somehow, the thought of him not coming back seems plausible, although I would like to think that he did every now and then.    This was certainly my initial feeling about it (i.e., his never coming back), which hightened the sense of tragedy.

[aintfoolin]

Yes, It makes ya wish the film was 3 hours longer don't it?... So much unsaid , so many things unanswerd.

[jackster]

Somehow, the thought of him not coming back seems plausible, although I would like to think that he did every now and then. 

There's a tie-in here with the thread about what Ennis would do with Jack's ashes. I think Ma Twist desperately wanted and needed Ennis to come back and "liberate" her son's ashes from the family plot. That look in her eyes, when she had her "sobering moment" that the old man wasn't going to let Jack go, the pain and desperation she felt right then, that Ennis was her only hope of seeing that Jack's final wishes be carried out. Clutching her throat like she was being choked by the bitterness spewing from from her so called husband. Great work Roberta!!

[orangetruck]

There's a tie-in here with the thread about what Ennis would do with Jack's ashes. I think Ma Twist desperately wanted and needed Ennis to come back and "liberate" her son's ashes from the family plot. That look in her eyes, when she had her "sobering moment" that the old man wasn't going to let Jack go, the pain and desperation she felt right then, that Ennis was her only hope of seeing that Jack's final wishes be carried out. Clutching her throat like she was being choked by the bitterness spewing from from her so called husband. Great work Roberta!!

Of course I can't even begin to explain my admiration for her acting role there. So so touching.

[JT]

Somehow, the thought of him not coming back seems plausible, although I would like to think that he did every now and then.    This was certainly my initial feeling about it (i.e., his never coming back), which hightened the sense of tragedy.

I think since Jack was burried there, Ennis would come back and pay respect for his other half.  And yes, Mrs. Twist would want Ennis to liberate her son also. 

I would like to think that Ennis would look after Mrs. Twist also just like her own son would have.

[lamusica]

Since my first viewing, I have thought that Ennis would someday come back to visit.  There is something in Mrs. Twist's face when she tells him to come back that is compelling.  She's not just mouthing empty words, but has a deeper meaning.  I think Ennis would have picked up on that and would have accommodated her by returning someday.  Again, the look is subtle -- not a pleading look, but just a glance of itensity that raises her words to the level of need and truth.  Mom's face is marvelous throughout this whole scene.  She says more with just a stoic set to her face than words could ever express. She is used to keeping her feelings inside.  God knows, she wouldn't have been welcome to share them with the old man.  So, when Ennis comes, she has a lot to tell him, but, since she can't speak freely, she has to communicate with him through nonverbals, which she does SOOOOOOO very well. The offer of cherry cake is, I believe, a ploy to keep ENnis there longer.  She revels in his presence -- someone who knew and loved Jack for what he was. She had the paper bag ready when he came downstairs, knowing full well he would be bringing the shirts with him.  This made her so happy.  Oh, I have to quit this post -- can't type through the tears.

[jackster]

Two "sobering moments" here IMO, within minutes of each other - Ennis finds "the shirts", finally realizes the love and longing that Jack had for him since '63 and that he has had inside himself for Jack. Then, just moments later downstairs, old man Twist puffs up about "we got a family plot, and he's goin' in it", Mrs. T suddenly realizes Jack's not going back to Brokeback where he wanted. The exchange of looks here between Ennis and Mrs. T, their eyes and faces, whew! I'm gonna' have to go watch this again (and again).
 :\'(

[orangetruck]

Two "sobering moments" here IMO, within minutes of each other - Ennis finds "the shirts", finally realizes the love and longing that Jack had for him since '63 and that he has had inside himself for Jack. Then, just moments later downstairs, old man Twist puffs up about "we got a family plot, and he's goin' in it", Mrs. T suddenly realizes Jack's not going back to Brokeback where he wanted. The exchange of looks here between Ennis and Mrs. T, their eyes and faces, whew! I'm gonna' have to go watch this again (and again).
 :\'(

Her eyes spoke incredible amounts.  :\'(

[JT]

These two (Ennis and Mrs. Twist) will have a lot to talk about on their next meeting.  The only two people we know of that truly love Jack.  A sobering moment for both of them.

[orangetruck]

These two (Ennis and Mrs. Twist) will have a lot to talk about on their next meeting.  The only two people we know of that truly love Jack.  A sobering moment for both of them.

So true, right?
I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to keep it 'sober' around them. In fact I'd better not come around Mrs. Twist's place when she's got Ennis over. I'm likely to just turn them into drunks, trying to drown my memories of Jack on Brokeback. Then Ennis would be drunk, and he and I would bump uglies somewhere in the kitchen near the fridge. And then Papa Twist would come out (because his family is supportive  ) looking for a midnight snack and he'd trip over me and Ennis ... literally.
And knowing me, I'd probably open the refridgerator, pull out a slab of bologna and start spankin' him with it. I don't know, I just feel like I'd end up getting kicked out or something.
 
Sorry,  I know.

But I do believe Mrs. Twist and Ennis could really lean on each other, indeed.