Topic: Jack and Ennis: Their Love

[manhattangirl]

Since Jack and Ennis never verbally said, "I Love You".  Was there an unsaid unsayable understanding?  Was it how they felt around each other?  Was it when they made love to each other?  How did one show the other his love?  Did they know what they felt was love?   Would it have change the story in anyway if they had said: I love you"? 

 

[aintfoolin]

 I certainly believe that they felt love but niether was going to admit it, They were not *thinkers* or sophisticated enough to put it into words. But can any of us define it? It's like asking someone: What is love.
Greek philosophers , they were not.

Jack and Ennis's personalities were were different as so the way they saw each other and how they both interpreted the way they felt. Had one of them found the nerve to say it out loud, being the simple country boys that they were I feel they'd have thought the words *syrupy*, embarasassing .  and/or *sappy* especially when they were younger.  I can easily see Jack saying it before Ennis , but he was'nt gonna take the chance of spooking Ennis with endearments such as this. He had his fears.

They showed their feeling through deeds  and actions though, Meeting like clockwork several times a year  and on  BBM , we can see this clearly in action . Both taking care to see that each other's needs were met.

Sometimes, I feel that because niether could really say it verbally, thier love making no doubt had more of an intensity about it both trying to show the other in intimate gestures how they felt. My thought.

[tpe]

Since Jack and Ennis never verbally said, "I Love You".  Was there an unsaid unsayable understanding?  Was it how they felt around each other?  Was it when they made love to each other?  How did one show the other his love?  Did they know what they felt was love?   Would it have change the story in anyway if they had said: I love you"? 

 

I had a feeling that Ennis never knew until after Jack's death what love truly is.  He had lived so long without love that he probably didn't connect his feelings for Jack with the notion of true love.  Does this make sense?  I had a feeling that when he used the word "love" for the first time (in the conversation with Alma Jr.), it was only then that he made the connection -- that he indeed loved Jack all that time, and that Jack had loved him back.

[orangetruck]

It would have drastically changed the love story, had "I love you" been leaked.

The Alma Jr. and Ennis trailer scene is one of the heaviest for me. It does say so much. 

[jackster]

I certainly believe that they felt love but neither was going to admit it, They were not *thinkers* or sophisticated enough to put it into words. But can any of us define it? It's like asking someone: What is love. Greek philosophers , they were not.

I'm pretty much with you here, except I feel it was not a problem of admitting "it" - more like they felt maybe they weren't sure what "it" was and were insecure in using the term. Like you say how do you define it. I'm no philosophy major, but it seems that maybe the concept of "love" and it's verbal expression between two individuals is a true middle-class, some might even say sentimental, 19th century invention that frequently doesn't extend downward or upward from this level of education and social strata. Especially in men. Personal experience tells me that for some (again men especially) it is very, very difficult to utter this phrase even though the emotion is truely and deeply felt. The utterance seems so pale and weak in comparison to the felt emotions. Poetry and literature give us middle class folks a pretty good understanding of what is generally accepted as "love". But if you ain't been privy to this background information using the "L" word might be intimidating, not that the emotion is not there, it's just that you don't have the comfort level of knowing how to define it. Don't know if this makes sense or not.

[orangetruck]

I'm pretty much with you here, except I feel it was not a problem of admitting "it" - more like they felt maybe they weren't sure what "it" was and were insecure in using the term. Like you say how do you define it. I'm no philosophy major, but it seems that maybe the concept of "love" and it's verbal expression between two individuals is a true middle-class, some might even say sentimental, 19th century invention that frequently doesn't extend downward or upward from this level of education and social strata. Especially in men. Personal experience tells me that for some (again men especially) it is very, very difficult to utter this phrase even though the emotion is truely and deeply felt. The utterance seems so pale and weak in comparison to the felt emotions. Poetry and literature give us middle class folks a pretty good understanding of what is generally accepted as "love". But if you ain't been privy to this background information using the "L" word might be intimidating, not that the emotion is not there, it's just that you don't have the comfort level of knowing how to define it. Don't know if this makes sense or not.

Well it's worth a shot for everyone to lay out on the table how they view E and J's takes on what love is, I'd say.
    I think it's more a matter of the L word being foreign (Until Alma Jr. answers "Yea, daddy, he loves me), especially to Ennis. And while the word is foreign they can sense nonetheless it's a step (whether socially praised or not) towards something to which prior sexual tendancies were already devastating for the queerfree cowboys.
They had enough egg shells to walk on just merely uttering what they (specially Jack) knew couldn't be trapped inside forever. Neither had the balls to play with the fire of such the timid uncertainty that "love" must have been for 2 men shacking up together.
Being 7, 8, 9 years old, I'm sure Ennis had been able to recognize his parents living and 'loving' each other, or at least able to comprehend the concept. Directly having been shown the result of Earl living/'loving' another man gives Ennis the ability, as prerequisite knowledge, to step over and around this 'thing'. If one can actively avoid something, I would say they certainly do know it exists, likely uncomfortably nearby.

I think Ennis had been successfully sculpted (how to fear) love, a forbidden love, having been shown Earl in a ditch in his hated state. It's sort of a long shot, but then roughly 3/4 of Ennis' life had also been determined by the empty illustration of his fearful past.

[jackster]

There's a wonderfully well done 4 min. video by JohnBoy, an EnnisJack member, using the Ronan Keating song "When You Say Nothing At All" it speaks directly to the issue here:



This should take you there. It's worth the time.

[orangetruck]

There's a wonderfully well done 4 min. video by JohnBoy, an EnnisJack member, using the Ronan Keating song "When You Say Nothing At All" it speaks directly to the issue here:



This should take you there. It's worth the time.

I agree, it speaks wonderfully of the issue here.
I'd like to suggest this video, done by someone else, to a female version of the song. It's been a favorite of mine for some time. The combination of this song and our boys is spot on.

[chameau]

Interesting thread... Men from this generation and background would barely talk about love even straight ones.

For me it is inconceivable they would say I Love You.  Jack maybe but, he knew the fears in Ennis who could only say ''this thing grabs on to us'' about their relationship.  They are for me some obvious examples about their love:

An unspoken one, the dozy embrace, initiated by Ennis.  Second, 20 years later, Jack said it out loud:  ''Tell you what... truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.''  The reunion kiss occuring in between these two events is another example, another silent one iniated by the ever silent Ennis, he didn't said much but expressed himslef in other ways.

It's the closest to say I Love You they will ever go... this is for me the essence of this tragedy, two men in love in the wrong place and the wrong time, they wouldn't dare to talk about it.  And after a while it was too late:  "Jack I swear..." is another open door and the subject of another topic. 

I need to catch my breath now  :\'(

Will we ever stop to wonder and talk about this story?

[NoReins]

Good points, Cham. I do think that they both knew what "this thing" was at some point. Jack knew early on, I think - you can see it in his face when he drives away from Ennis after their summer together and the fact that he initiates the "what are we gonna do now" conversation at the reunion suggests that he know it's far more than just friendship with benefits. I mean, you don't try to plan a life together with someone you just see as a friend, do you?

As for Ennis, I think he knows by the time they leave Brokeback that it's more than friendship, which goes some way to explaining why he's so angry/upset about leaving early and certainly explains his retching in the alley. The SS lets us know, though, that he didn't understand the feelings until a year later - he knows it's something strong, but doesn't know what. At the reunion, his passionate kiss could still be interpreted as just a strong physical desire for Jack, but the fact that he remembers things Jack said ("The army didn't get you?") suggests more. When he says "Ain't no reins on this one", I think he knows by then that it's something he can't control, something he can't stop....and something he doesn't want to stop either. Even if there are no reins to pull the horse back in, you can always jump off but he doesn't. Maybe that's as close as he ever gets to telling Jack he loves him...until it's too late, anyway :\'( When it comes to putting the word "love" together with his feelings, though, I agree that doesn't happen until he asks Junior if Kurt loves her. When she says yes, his wistful look tells us everything - yes, Kurt loves her so they're going to be together, just like Jack wanted to be with him, because Jack loved him. His "Jack, I swear..." is, I feel, the answer to that - he loved Jack too, and he knows it now.

[tpe]

 :\'(

It would indeed seem to me that the Dozy Embrace is the closest Ennis ever got to saying an unspoken "I love you."  I think Jack understood this.

[jackster]

. . . . When he says "Ain't no reins on this one", I think he knows by then that it's something he can't control, something he can't stop....and something he doesn't want to stop either. Even if there are no reins to pull the horse back in, you can always jump off but he doesn't. Maybe that's as close as he ever gets to telling Jack he loves him . . .

Get post here NoReins, especially the interpretation of the reins . . . 

[welshwitch]

I doubt that Ennis ever said "I love you" to Alma, never mind Jack. He comes from a non-verbal, non--demonstrative culture/society - that he uses the word to his daughter at the end  of the story shows that society has changed and Ennis is beginning to change too.

I don't even know whether Jack would have told Lureen he loved her, if he ever did. When he was young he didn't say it to ennis, even if he felt it, probably because even if he wanted to he was afraid of frightening Ennis off - if he did mention the word to Lureen I like to imagine him saying it in slight exasperation. You know the scene - the girl says "But you do love me, don't you?" and the guy says"Of course I love you" in a somewhat impatient way.

[orangetruck]

Get post here NoReins, especially the interpretation of the reins . . . 

I agree about the no reins line. Very well said. 

[manhattangirl]

The scene in the motel, to me is so intimate,  Ennis and Jack in bed with Jack's arm around Ennis after they made love.   I always wondered why didn't Ennis at this point understood that he would never be closer to anyone as he was to Jack.   It should have hit him like bolt of lightening.  Jack understood this moment, but Ennis didn't get it.   

OT:  in the ss Ennis took Jack's hand and bought the cigarette to his lips, I wish they would have done this one gesture in the film. It would have shown the deepening of this relationship, and Ennis yielding to Jack.   Does this make sense? 

[NoReins]

OT:  in the ss Ennis took Jack's hand and bought the cigarette to his lips, I wish they would have done this one gesture in the film. It would have shown the deepening of this relationship, and Ennis yielding to Jack.   Does this make sense? 

Makes perfect sense. I wish they'd shown that too, instead of them having a cigarette each. Then again, I also wish that movie Ennis had said some of the things that OS Ennis said - particularly the bit about thinking that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights.

[tpe]

Makes perfect sense. I wish they'd shown that too, instead of them having a cigarette each. Then again, I also wish that movie Ennis had said some of the things that OS Ennis said - particularly the bit about thinking that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights.

I do think the movie script opted to say a lot of things unsaid, especially those things that shed light as to the nature of their feelings for each other.  Although I pretty much consider this one of the strong points in the movie, I must admit that I find myself hungering for some verbal expression of their love.  In a way, this deprivation is quite deliberate.  It lets our imagination fill in the lacunae.  And in most cases, our imagination goes further because there are no explicit constraints.

The power of unspoken love is perhaps what defines my love for Debussy's opera, Pelléas et Mélisande, based on Maeterlinck's play.  The love of Ennis in Jack in BBM the movie is in that great tradition of unspoken love.  In the Debussy opera, when love is finally verbally declared, it is done so quietly that one almost misses it!  THe case is so strikingly similar in the case of BBM -- when Ennis finally verbalizes the word "love" in the end of the movie, it takes some subtlety to realize that although jack was not the subject of the conversation, he was very much at the center of Ennis's mind at that moment.

[orangetruck]

I do think the movie script opted to say a lot of things unsaid, especially those things that shed light as to the nature of their feelings for each other.  Although I pretty much consider this one of the strong points in the movie, I must admit that I find myself hungering for some verbal expression of their love.  In a way, this deprivation is quite deliberate.  It lets our imagination fill in the lacunae.  And in most cases, our imagination goes further because there are no explicit constraints.

The power of unspoken love is perhaps what defines my love for Debussy's opera, Pelléas et Mélisande, based on Maeterlinck's play.  The love of Ennis in Jack in BBM the movie is in that great tradition of unspoken love.  In the Debussy opera, when love is finally verbally declared, it is done so quietly that one almost misses it!  THe case is so strikingly similar in the case of BBM -- when Ennis finally verbalizes the word "love" in the end of the movie, it takes some subtlety to realize that although jack was not the subject of the conversation, he was very much at the center of Ennis's mind at that moment.

Nicely put. I'm totally with it here. 

[tpe]

Nicely put. I'm totally with it here. 

Thanks, orangetruck.

I do understand that love has to be verbalized in most cases  -- it may not be often, but each verbalization goes a long way.

The case of Ennis and Jack is most special in that they never seemed to have verbalized it while Jack was alive.  Sometimes, I guess the verbalization of love constrains it, and that Ennis and Jack knew that for them to continue loving, it was best not to admit it. 

Jack, of course, came very very close when he said: "Sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  It is as close to a verbal admission of love as he ever got, IMO.

[manhattangirl]

I may get a lot of grief on this one:

But since we talk about verbalizations.   What do you guys think, when Ennis told Jack:   "All those things I don't know, may get you killed if I come to know them".  

Now this is as close as Ennis ever came to acknowledging and verbally expressing that there is something that was going on between him and Jack, and showed how important it was to him, in the only way he could express it.  "Mess around on me and there is consequences. "



 

[tpe]

I may get a lot of grief on this one:

But since we talk about verbalizations.   What do you guys think, when Ennis told Jack:   "All those things I don't know, may get you killed if I come to know them".  

Now this is as close as Ennis ever came to acknowledging and verbally expressing that there is something that was going on between him and Jack, and showed how important it was to him, in the only way he could express it.  "Mess around on me and there is consequences. "

Yes, it was an oblique way fro Ennis to tell Jack that he cared.  And I think Jack recognized it underneath the threat.

I think it was the first time that Jack realized how jealous a lover Ennis was.  It probably took him completely by surprise.  But I cannot help thinking that a part of him was also pleased (as much as a part of him was indignant), because it was an indirect way by which he found out that Ennis cared enough.  It hinted at love.

[chameau]

I may get a lot of grief on this one:

But since we talk about verbalizations.   What do you guys think, when Ennis told Jack:   "All those things I don't know, may get you killed if I come to know them".  

Now this is as close as Ennis ever came to acknowledging and verbally expressing that there is something that was going on between him and Jack, and showed how important it was to him, in the only way he could express it.  "Mess around on me and there is consequences. "

Just the oppsote, no grief from me.  You make a lot of sense.

[jstephens9]

I think the love Ennis felt for Jack and the love Jack felt for Ennis did not have to come out as "I Love You" since it was a known, but unspoken, thing. I believe they always both knew it was there and existed. It just really did not have to be said. Obviously, it was much more difficult for Ennis to completely admit to, but there were many, many ways that he showed his love to Jack. Although Jack could not have Ennis to the extent that they truly both wanted, Ennis was always there at Brokeback for him each time they planned it, except for that unfortunate August one that never happened. During the reunion, there was absolutely no doubt that Ennis loved Jack so much that he had no idea really what to do. As he keeps looking out that window looking and hoping that Jack would drive up, you can see how worried and sad he is that the reunion may not happen. When he bursts out that door, down those steps and grabs, kisses, and pulls Jack so close to him there is no doubt that Ennis loves Jack. I don't even think Ennis had the time to think about being his usually reserved self. If I had of been Jack, regardless of anything, I would have known at that point how much this guy truly loved me. I believe the love and the relationship were completely true and they both knew how much it meant to both of them. Love was just an unspoken word. A word that would have possibly made both uncomfortable, especially, of course, Ennis. Their love went beyond words. The last time they went to Brokeback it was unmistakeably clear that their relationship was a very true thing to both of them. If there were no relationship that was understood as one by both of them, Ennis would not have cared about Jack going to Mexico. Jack would not have said "sometimes I wish I could quit you." You have to have a relationship in order to quit someone. Also, don't forget, that Jack says to Ennis the words about keeping him on a short lease. Again, no love and no relationship would mean no lease. Also, Ennis had a hard time expressing himself anyway and to tell Jack that he loved him would make Ennis uncomfortable because I believe to him it would possibly be another way he felt he would disappoint Jack by, in his mind, "not" being able to take that "I Love You" to the next level.

[welshwitch]

No doubt I shall be accused of sexism now, but IMO it's often women who are anxious to hear the words" I love you" - since they have no problem saying them, they can't see why many men apparently don't want to say the words. Maybe men show their love in actions while women express it in words?

[manhattangirl]

I agree with you ww, the most popular response that men I find give, "If I didn't love you, I wouldn't be with you".

[tpe]

I think the love Ennis felt for Jack and the love Jack felt for Ennis did not have to come out as "I Love You" since it was a known, but unspoken, thing. I believe they always both knew it was there and existed. It just really did not have to be said. Obviously, it was much more difficult for Ennis to completely admit to, but there were many, many ways that he showed his love to Jack. Although Jack could not have Ennis to the extent that they truly both wanted, Ennis was always there at Brokeback for him each time they planned it, except for that unfortunate August one that never happened. During the reunion, there was absolutely no doubt that Ennis loved Jack so much that he had no idea really what to do. As he keeps looking out that window looking and hoping that Jack would drive up, you can see how worried and sad he is that the reunion may not happen. When he bursts out that door, down those steps and grabs, kisses, and pulls Jack so close to him there is no doubt that Ennis loves Jack. I don't even think Ennis had the time to think about being his usually reserved self. If I had of been Jack, regardless of anything, I would have known at that point how much this guy truly loved me. I believe the love and the relationship were completely true and they both knew how much it meant to both of them. Love was just an unspoken word. A word that would have possibly made both uncomfortable, especially, of course, Ennis. Their love went beyond words. The last time they went to Brokeback it was unmistakeably clear that their relationship was a very true thing to both of them. If there were no relationship that was understood as one by both of them, Ennis would not have cared about Jack going to Mexico. Jack would not have said "sometimes I wish I could quit you." You have to have a relationship in order to quit someone. Also, don't forget, that Jack says to Ennis the words about keeping him on a short lease. Again, no love and no relationship would mean no lease. Also, Ennis had a hard time expressing himself anyway and to tell Jack that he loved him would make Ennis uncomfortable because I believe to him it would possibly be another way he felt he would disappoint Jack by, in his mind, "not" being able to take that "I Love You" to the next level.

Very insightful comment, jstephens9.  I love it!

What you say makes sense -- that what made Ennis uncomfortable was his inability to reciprocate in the way that Jack wanted him to.   His inability to go on to the next level was something that stood in the way of his expressing how he truly felt for Jack.

[tpe]

No doubt I shall be accused of sexism now, but IMO it's often women who are anxious to hear the words" I love you" - since they have no problem saying them, they can't see why many men apparently don't want to say the words. Maybe men show their love in actions while women express it in words?

Interesting comment, WW.

This ties in with what jstephens9 said.  There was enough body language between Ennis and Jack to hint at their love for each other.  But both of them perhaps realized that further action was needed (i.e., taking things to the next level), and their inability to move on to that next level made it all the more difficult to express their feelings in words.

[yncroger]

 :\'(

[keren_b]

I loved reading all the posts here, they're so insightful.

There's no doubt in my mind that Ennis and Jack loved each other and deeply. they didn't have to say it, it spoke volumes through their actions and through different things they've said, that you all mentioned already. the SNIT was all about love - the tenderness, the kisses, the expressions on their faces, that was so much more than sex, that was making love. Ennis retching in the alley. Jack's face as he drove away. the whole reunion scene, the way Ennis waited anxiously by the window and then that incredible hug and passionate kisses. Lying in each other's arms in the motel. The fact that in the earlier days Ennis would quit his jobs so he'd be able to meet Jack - he practically admitted that. and all those things they said to each other that were mentioned in all the posts above. And yes, I think Ennis's jealousy and his threat to Jack was an obvious testament to how strong he felt about him. But although it's clear to me that Ennis loved Jack, I'm not sure how much he was conscious of that and whether he ever admitted that to himself while Jack was alive. I can see Jack consciously realizing what his feelings were - like somebody said here (I'm sorry, I can't remember who right now), you don't plan to live your life with someone unless you realize you love them. But I think that Ennis would probably try to repress those thoughts because they were too threatening, he would be too scared to name it. I'm sure he knew that what he felt for Jack was something very powerful, something he can't control, but I don't know if he ever admitted to himself, "I love him". Maybe the trauma that he went through as a child, and all the fears that were born as a consequence, caused such a deep psychological barrier that he couldn't admit even to himself that he loved another man. And if he couldn't say that even to himself, how could he say that to Jack?

I do believe that he admitted that to himself after Jack was killed. His face when he finds the shirts - God, you don't need words for that. And when he asked Junior if Kurt loved her, it was obvious to me that he was thinking about Jack. And I'm sure that he knew then that what he had with Jack was love, and he missed it. That's the huge tragedy. :\'( :\'( :\'(

[manhattangirl]

Doubt, fear, need, an inability to let go, walk away, to cast it out Ennis held on to Jack.  We saw of this at the final confrontation when Jack finally pushes Ennis to the edge.  I wonder how long it was that Ennis lay broken in Jack's arms,  I wonder what justification did Ennis have to get back in his truck and drive away from the only person he loved, and who loved him.
 

You know guys, I had always had a secret ending to this film:

The next scene after the dozy embrace, indeed a truck driving off, horses running free, the other truck empty abandon.   That's is all we have know. 

(Man, I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff.)