Author Topic: Why that Shirt? (Read 15285 times)

aintfoolin · « **on:** Jun 20, 2007, 05:14 AM »

Much has been made about the shirts in Jack's closet and rightly so. Jack stole the shirt some time while they were still on BBM. But why that one? Ennis did'nt have many apparently. It was the shirt Ennis wore the first day on the mountain, and SNIT, he also wore it when he shot the elk, He wore it as they were about to leave and bring the sheep down during the wrestling /fight scene and got it bloody. Jack must have stolen it right around this time, but what meaning did that particular shirt hold for Jack? Did it hold some deeper meaning to Jack than what it probably meant to Ennis. Just an old ,lost blue and white shirt nothing more. But for Jack it must have represented alot more. What was it?( And blue just had to be Jack's fav color, I betcha!)

fairy · « **Reply #1 on:** Jun 20, 2007, 05:38 AM »

On my opinion this is a very romantic deed, because Jack wants a touchable keepsake of Ennis...and the blood on his skirt is an inmost thing. And then the two skirts in hug

...

manhattangirl · « **Reply #2 on:** Jun 20, 2007, 06:03 AM »

Ennis was on the shirt, and so Ennis was with him always.

tpe · « **Reply #3 on:** Jun 20, 2007, 07:02 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jun 20, 2007, 05:14 AM

Much has been made about the shirts in Jack's closet and rightly so. Jack stole the shirt some time while they were still on BBM. But why that one? Ennis did'nt have many apparently. It was the shirt Ennis wore the first day on the mountain, and SNIT, he also wore it when he shot the elk, He wore it as they were about to leave and bring the sheep down during the wrestling /fight scene and got it bloody. Jack must have stolen it right around this time, but what meaning did that particular shirt hold for Jack? Did it hold some deeper meaning to Jack than what it probably meant to Ennis. Just an old ,lost blue and white shirt nothing more. But for Jack it must have represented alot more. What was it?( And blue just had to be Jack's fav color, I betcha!)

I think it was the shirt because it was the last thing Jack could get from Ennis at the end of their stay in BBM in 63. I think Jack thought that he may never see Ennis again after that, and he was desperate to have something from Ennis, even at the risk of being found out.

The blood is also of significance. It seems to symbolize a compact.

welshwitch · « **Reply #4 on:** Jun 20, 2007, 01:44 PM »

Practically it might have just been the only other one Ennis had and since he wasn't wearing it the only one Jack could take.

Metaphorically it has Ennis's blood on it and maybe Jack's - the most important symbolic bodily fluid, which up to now they haven't exchanged. Ennis pushed Jack away when he tried to clean up his face after the bear episode, but now Jack has Ennis's blood to keep. Blood relationships and compacts sealed in blood resonate through many cultures - I remember the effect of Diana's brother referring to himself and her relations as the young princes' blood family at Diana's funeral and the sensation it caused.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #5 on:** Jun 20, 2007, 03:21 PM »

Thank you WW for that comment about Diana. I loved her.
Well at the time Jack did'nt really know that he would never see Ennis again when he took it, but he took it anyway. I think it goes to Jack's state of mind at the time. Sometime after the punch is when he took it so I feel the blood on it did represent a battle of some kind. Maybe the battle for their love which accumulated as a series of actions and and feelings while on Brokeback. Jack was battling Ennis's nonacceptance of his true feelings and perhaps this is why he chose chose to display the shirts as he did, to show a comforting gesture of love. He was surrounding Ennis with his love to show its alright ,( I still love you, even if you can't accept who you are?)

goblondie · « **Reply #6 on:** Jun 20, 2007, 04:28 PM »

I think it was more or less by incident it became excatly that shirt.
I think the fight came as a chock for Jack and he after that realised that he maybe never would see Ennis again. In the start of the fight scene Jack said to Ennis that they had to get going,so at that point they had packed all their stuff or most of it and only needed to get going.
After the fight Ennis had to change his shirt so Jack must have seen the opurtunity to steal his shirt in the confusion after the fight and the last packing before leaving, and of course it was an extra bonus that it was the shirt with Ennis blood.He wanted to have a memory of Jack with him.

tpe · « **Reply #7 on:** Jun 21, 2007, 07:14 AM »

It would also seem probable that the shirt was taken because it would remind him of that struggle between them -- grappling with each other for some partly unknown reason over feelings only partially understood.

Perhaps in Jack's mind, it was equivalent to Jacob wrestling with his Angel. But the Angel bled...

ragtimecowboy · « **Reply #8 on:** Jul 11, 2007, 07:33 PM »

I think that Jack was shocked by Ennis's display of raw emotion, and wasn't expecting a fight. Right before this Ennis was in a deep struggle with his feelings of love for Jack and was grappling with the sudden ending their time together, I don't think Ennis wanted to leave and was actually kind of in shock. Ennis had been sharing his sperm and spit with Jack at every chance he could get. Jack, I think, realized that Ennis really loved him and could sense the inner conflict in Ennis. The lassoing by Jack was a not so subtle way of letting Ennis know he wanted him outright and considered Ennis his and his alone. Ennis's anger flowed out of his fear of having to give everything up and loosiing Jack and the fear of maybe them being found out. The blood was the closest Jack thought he would ever get to Ennis again. Fortunately for him that wasn't the case. Ennis realized the depth of Jack's love when he found those shirts together and knew why he had taken them deep in his heart.

tpe · « **Reply #9 on:** Jul 12, 2007, 07:13 AM »

Quote from: ragtimecowboy on Jul 11, 2007, 07:33 PM

I think that Jack was shocked by Ennis's display of raw emotion, and wasn't expecting a fight. Right before this Ennis was in a deep struggle with his feelings of love for Jack and was grappling with the sudden ending their time together, I don't think Ennis wanted to leave and was actually kind of in shock. Ennis had been sharing his sperm and spit with Jack at every chance he could get. Jack, I think, realized that Ennis really loved him and could sense the inner conflict in Ennis. The lassoing by Jack was a not so subtle way of letting Ennis know he wanted him outright and considered Ennis his and his alone. Ennis's anger flowed out of his fear of having to give everything up and loosiing Jack and the fear of maybe them being found out. The blood was the closest Jack thought he would ever get to Ennis again. Fortunately for him that wasn't the case. Ennis realized the depth of Jack's love when he found those shirts together and knew why he had taken them deep in his heart.

For me, this is the heart of the matter. The fact is that in this scene, Ennis gave himself away to Jack, and jack recognized this. That was why the shirts were special to Jack -- so special that he cherished it the rest of his life. The shirts called forth the moment when Jack sensed -- probably for the very first time, if we discount the Dozy Embrace, which was more veiled with an unspoken understanding -- that Ennis had deeper feelings for him -- and not just a one-shot thing.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #10 on:** Jul 12, 2007, 12:34 PM »

I agree. When Ennis found Jack dismantling the camp it all became symbolic to Ennis. The end of this ideal existence with Jack in the mountains was over. He was so anxious and upset that he did'nt offer to help Jack pack up, instead sat alone on a hill contemplating what it all meant.
I love when you say Ennis " gave himself away" to Jack for this is the essence of him complaining that the snow barely stuck an hour and then Aguirre was cutting him out of a month's pay . an unconcious contradiction on his part. Jack readily offers him a loan in which Ennis angrily replies " hell, I don't need your money, I aint in the poor house" The contradiction is clear to see. why complain about one more month of pay then? It was not about the money.
The truth of the matter is that Ennis was unexpectedly * cut off * from more time with Jack on the mountain. Jack seeks him out, perhaps wanting to enjoy one more lovemaking session with Ennis that led to the wrestling/fight. At this point the shirt became symbolic for Jack IMO of what he found in Ennis, and what he would lose once they left the mountain.

tpe · « **Reply #11 on:** Jul 12, 2007, 01:16 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 12, 2007, 12:34 PM

I agree. When Ennis found Jack dismantling the camp it all became symbolic to Ennis. The end of this ideal existence with Jack in the mountains was over. He was so anxious and upset that he did'nt offer to help Jack pack up, instead sat alone on a hill contemplating what it all meant.
I love when you say Ennis " gave himself away" to Jack for this is the essence of him complaining that the snow barely stuck an hour and then Aguirre was cutting him out of a month's pay . an unconcious contradiction on his part. Jack readily offers him a loan in which Ennis angrily replies " hell, I don't need your money, I aint in the poor house" The contradiction is clear to see. why complain about one more month of pay then? It was not about the money.
The truth of the matter is that Ennis was unexpectedly * cut off * from more time with Jack on the mountain. Jack seeks him out, perhaps wanting to enjoy one more lovemaking session with Ennis that led to the wrestling/fight. At this point the shirt became symbolic for Jack IMO of what he found in Ennis, and what he would lose once they left the mountain.

That was what made this scene ring with a note of underlying sweetness: we can see that Jack saw what was truly bothering Ennis. The shirt therefore had a symbolic significance: Jack got under Ennis's skin.

lamusica · « **Reply #12 on:** Jul 12, 2007, 05:12 PM »

The blood is the thing. Both of their blood was on that sleeve ( see ss). What better symbol of their unity could there be? I was struck hard by this the first time I saw the movie and it still gets to me every time. Few people own a keepsake of a relationship with so much meaning. How lucky Jack was to have the shirts, and he showed his gratefulness by cherishing them, as Ennis did later on.

tpe · « **Reply #13 on:** Jul 13, 2007, 02:00 PM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jul 12, 2007, 05:12 PM

The blood is the thing. Both of their blood was on that sleeve ( see ss). What better symbol of their unity could there be? I was struck hard by this the first time I saw the movie and it still gets to me every time. Few people own a keepsake of a relationship with so much meaning. How lucky Jack was to have the shirts, and he showed his gratefulness by cherishing them, as Ennis did later on.

Yes, I think I did mention somewhere (in this thread, probably) that the shirts signified a compact sealed in blood. And the fact that the blood was Ennis's had special significance for Jack.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #14 on:** Jul 13, 2007, 09:18 PM »

I totally agree with this. The blood on the shirts was a result of a steadying Jack trying to calm an out of control Ennis. Perhaps Jack saw the shirt as a representation of them being " blood brothers" in a sense. Indeed a compact for life and joined by the essence of life itself.

In the reunion scene Ennis wears another blue and white shirt, only the stripes are much bolder in the pattern. Befitting the more wiser, bolder Ennis.

welshwitch · « **Reply #15 on:** Jul 14, 2007, 12:14 AM »

It just struck me how odd it is that clothes outlast their owners - the shirts passed from Jack to Ennis after Jack's death, and could go on existing after Ennis's death, though I'd like to think of their being buried with him as the last relic of the relationship.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #16 on:** Jul 14, 2007, 08:02 AM »

The only real thing that both owned were the shirts on their backs. What else did they have materially between them? You could look at it as rings like in marriage, a symbol of love, pledge to that love that bound them.

And if Ennis was a smart man, he would ask Alma, Jr., to see that the shirts are to be buried with him when his time comes. She may understand or may not but I believe she'll do as he asked, she after all loved him, and would want to do this one thing he ask of her.

lamusica · « **Reply #17 on:** Jul 14, 2007, 09:18 PM »

Ennis being Ennis, I doubt that he could tell Alma Jr. what Jack meant to him. I think Ennis might take the shirts to BBM and bury them somewhere up there -- maybe where their camp and tent were pitched. I don't think Ennis would want anyone touching the shirts or thinking about their significance. I think he would take care of that detail before he got too old and too close to death. Were he to die suddenly before he could dispose of the shirts, Junior would find them and draw her own conclusions. The right ones? Who knows? Maybe she already suspects something; maybe Alma let something slip in her anger towards Ennis. Surely, Junior would know the shirts were very important to her father for him to have kept them together and where he would see them everyday. Perhaps she would bury them, along with the picture of BBM.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #18 on:** Jul 15, 2007, 11:38 AM »

It occurs to me at this moment the care Jack took to display the shirts as he did. He took the time to arrange the sleeves into his sleeves as opposed to just wrapping his shirt around Ennis's. He took time to do this as if to make sure the shirts were touching every part of the other. Very protective and loving gesture on his part.

Then Ennis goes and gets my tears flowing by reversing the order of the shirts in a protective return embrace. Very emotional. :\'( :\'( :\'(

Alma Jr. will be of an age where she could possibly confront Ennis gently with her suspicions about her father. This would provide Ennis with the opportunity to request the shirts be buried with him. We'll never know, but it would be fitting for this loving deed to be carried out by her after his death if Ennis requests it.

tpe · « **Reply #19 on:** Jul 16, 2007, 07:49 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jul 14, 2007, 09:18 PM

Ennis being Ennis, I doubt that he could tell Alma Jr. what Jack meant to him. I think Ennis might take the shirts to BBM and bury them somewhere up there -- maybe where their camp and tent were pitched. I don't think Ennis would want anyone touching the shirts or thinking about their significance. I think he would take care of that detail before he got too old and too close to death. Were he to die suddenly before he could dispose of the shirts, Junior would find them and draw her own conclusions. The right ones? Who knows? Maybe she already suspects something; maybe Alma let something slip in her anger towards Ennis. Surely, Junior would know the shirts were very important to her father for him to have kept them together and where he would see them everyday. Perhaps she would bury them, along with the picture of BBM.

But I wouldn't be surprised if ALma Jr. already knew about Jack, and perhaps she could piece togther what the shirts meant in the event she discovered them. In any case, I doubt that Ennis needed to tell her anything or would actually tell her anything. But I do think that Alma Jr. probably surmised certain things about her father, and perhaps knew what Jack meant to him.

ragtimecowboy · « **Reply #20 on:** Jul 16, 2007, 10:20 PM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Jun 20, 2007, 06:03 AM

Ennis was on the shirt, and so Ennis was with him always.

At that particular point in time, Jack was probably thinking just that. Jack knew that Ennis really loved him because he witnessed the inner struggle going on for all that time. He knew that Ennis was grappling with the choice he was about to make. On the one hand, he had Jack who loved unconditionally and for the first time in his life had been happier than than he had ever been at anytime. On the other he had Alma, someone he knew but wasn't sure he could ever love, and had no idea what the future would hold. Jack felt that bruise as painfully as he felt Ennis' withdrawl and probably felt he was never going to see Ennis again. Every time he looked at those shirts he would be know that for at least once in his life he had been truly loved.

tpe · « **Reply #21 on:** Jul 17, 2007, 07:34 AM »

Quote from: ragtimecowboy on Jul 16, 2007, 10:20 PM

At that particular point in time, Jack was probably thinking just that. Jack knew that Ennis really loved him because he witnessed the inner struggle going on for all that time. He knew that Ennis was grappling with the choice he was about to make. On the one hand, he had Jack who loved unconditionally and for the first time in his life had been happier than than he had ever been at anytime. On the other he had Alma, someone he knew but wasn't sure he could ever love, and had no idea what the future would hold. Jack felt that bruise as painfully as he felt Ennis' withdrawl and probably felt he was never going to see Ennis again. Every time he looked at those shirts he would be know that for at least once in his life he had been truly loved.

Why that shirt: if only to remind them that Love bruises as much as it heals; Love begets pain as much as it conceives pleasure. The shirts stood for this fact: how difficult and painful it can be to love, even as we recognize that we cannot live without it.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #22 on:** Jul 17, 2007, 03:05 PM »

This so true tpe. I feel Ennis was going through a process of withdrawl when he punched Jack. The end of time with Jack was coming to an end and he just could not deal with it rationally. Jack knew what Ennis was thinking and stole the shirt thinking to himself: " Our blood was shed together in this battle for love and acceptance cowboy" " I will remember us this way forever. Even after we part."
Love is pain and pleasure at times , a romantic notion. For Jack and Ennis, a tragic rollercoaster ride. MO

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Jul 17, 2007, 03:24 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 17, 2007, 03:05 PM

This so true tpe. I feel Ennis was going through a process of withdrawl when he punched Jack. The end of time with Jack was coming to an end and he just could not deal with it rationally. Jack knew what Ennis was thinking and stole the shirt thinking to himself: " Our blood was shed together in this battle for love and acceptance cowboy" " I will remember us this way forever. Even after we part."
Love is pain and pleasure at times , a romantic notion. For Jack and Ennis, a tragic rollercoaster ride. MO

Yes, and we shoudn't forget that Jack probably thought that he would never see Ennis again after that. If we assume that Jack considered the possibility of never meeting again, then the shirts would have been the one sole reminder of what they had gone through and what they shared. With the blood and all that, it would be difficult to ever forget...

welshwitch · « **Reply #24 on:** Jul 17, 2007, 06:33 PM »

Typical of me to think in terms of clothes, but it strikes me that a shirt is a very male possession. Jeans are unisex, as are belts and boots and to a degree working jackets - I'd borrow all sorts of male clothes if they fitted but not a shirt....

manhattangirl · « **Reply #25 on:** Jul 18, 2007, 05:49 AM »

This is Jack, all Jack. Not only was he physical, but spiritual. How much was his mother influence was there in that action of taking Ennis's bloodied shirt, put it inside his own. Was it the shirts themselves or that Ennis's blood was on it. A physical part of Ennis. Was it the influence of going church with his mother, but not be able to tell Ennis what a Pentecost was, but remembering the hymn "Water Walking Jesus", but knew of faith, and of love, and worship of something greater than yourself. Jack was not a religious man but he was spiritual, the dozy embrace tells us that.

Every year he went to visit his parents how many times he held those shirts, and think of Ennis, and pray to him, to see him again, and finally reached out to him in his moment of despair, he seeks out Ennis and finds him.

tpe · « **Reply #26 on:** Jul 18, 2007, 06:33 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 17, 2007, 06:33 PM

Typical of me to think in terms of clothes, but it strikes me that a shirt is a very male possession. Jeans are unisex, as are belts and boots and to a degree working jackets - I'd borrow all sorts of male clothes if they fitted but not a shirt....

And I do think Ennis only had one pair of jeans -- the one he wore, no? It would have been very noticable if he missed those!

The same with a working jacket. I would think that jeans and jackets would be more expensive than a shirt. Still, it is a witness to Ennis's poverty that he felt keenly the loss of his shirt.

tpe · « **Reply #27 on:** Jul 18, 2007, 06:36 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Jul 18, 2007, 05:49 AM

This is Jack, all Jack. Not only was he physical, but spiritual. How much was his mother influence was there in that action of taking Ennis's bloodied shirt, put it inside his own. Was it the shirts themselves or that Ennis's blood was on it. A physical part of Ennis. Was it the influence of going church with his mother, but not be able to tell Ennis what a Pentecost was, but remembering the hymn "Water Walking Jesus", but knew of faith, and of love, and worship of something greater than yourself. Jack was not a religious man but he was spiritual, the dozy embrace tells us that.

Every year he went to visit his parents how many times he held those shirts, and think of Ennis, and pray to him, to see him again, and finally reached out to him in his moment of despair, he seeks out Ennis and finds him.

manhattangirl, you bring out a point here that I had not considered before. In another thread, I had suggested that perhaps Jack never visited his parents during the 4 years prior to the reunion. But I had forgotten that there is ONE good reason for him to do this: to see the shirts. It would be in keeping with his spirituality -- a sort of pilgrimage of memory, if I may say so.

welshwitch · « **Reply #28 on:** Jul 18, 2007, 02:03 PM »

the whole iconic quality of the shirts, their function as relics, is surprisingly Catholic in a work by what I assume is a Protestant author and a director whose religious beliefs are presumably not Catholic or even Christian? Christian relics often involve blood, liquefying blood in vials, blood-stained garments, and of course it's there in all the depictions of Christ's passion.

The blood on the shirts authnticates them or links them permanently to their owners, I suppose, as well as representing their suffering.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #29 on:** Jul 19, 2007, 05:52 AM »

This is definitly true WW . Though niether was overly religious (Practcing) jack was of the pentecostal faith, ( my own) Ennis, a methodist.
The pentecostal faith is one of very, very strict rules and rituals galore ,alot of them symbolizing blood or the blood of Christ. A battle against evil. A battle was fought here IMO for love and freedom and Jack may have saw it this way. Maybe this is part of why he stole the shirt. A symbol of hope which in the end served it's purpose. The shedding of he and Ennis's blood on the shirt may have triggered some childhood remembrance that in his religion one must battle everyday against evil forces . including fear, to someday be rewarded for your suffering. Jack battled for 20 years against whatever it was that kept he and Ennis apart, and sometimes it was Ennis himself, but Jack lived on faith that thinngs would eventually change. But.... A part of Ennis was fighting a battle too, but against what Jack was fighting for. Am I making sense here? My thoughts.