Topic: If Jack did Quit Ennis--Would this be a Life?

[manhattangirl]

 
What kind of life Ennis would have if Jack did "Quit him".  Would he allow it--how could he keep him?  Would he accept it--what kind of life would he have without him, and Jack still living?   

[tpe]

Sometimes I think he would have killed Jack rather than see him quit him.

But no, Ennis wouldn't do that.  He would try to stand it, and perhaps try not to show hurt.  But I think it would kill him -- if not literally, then at least emotionally.  He would have been a recluse -- same as what happened when jack died.  But he would have been more bitter.  He certainly would have imploded, not letting anybody into his heart ever again.

[lamusica]

I, too, think he would have become very bitter.  After all, he had lost where Alma was concerned -- was a failure at marriage.  So, if Jack left him, he would have lost again, only BIGGER this time since Jack was his real love.  I think he would have turned on the world -- become reclusive, or an old grump who cared for no one because no one cared for him.  I can't see anything else for Ennis. I don't believe he would have gone looking for another man ( or woman) with which to live, so he was left truly alone.  And I think Jack realized this.  Even if Jack started up with Randall, or anyone else, I still think he would have continued to meet Ennis from time to time.  Ennis was his life's blood.  He had to have an occasional shot of Ennis to keep going, even if he became unwilling to continue on with Ennis in such a losing situation as they had going for 20 years. Ennis was his elixir of life, so to speak, and he couldn't do without that.

[manhattangirl]

Would you say that it was Ennis that needed Jack more than the other way round?   Jack had questions, doubts, he was more at ease in the world outside of Brokeback than Ennis was.

Jack was definitely Ennis life line.  I say this because at no time did Ennis ever thought of quitting Jack.  He was unable to do so.  I think it was Ennis hold on Jack, but his unable to move the relationship along put a definite strain on Jack.

Ennis was much in the need to hold on to this relationship than Jack.  Knowing Jack out there somewhere, and not with him, would be too much to bare.  IMO. 

[tpe]

I, too, think he would have become very bitter.  After all, he had lost where Alma was concerned -- was a failure at marriage.  So, if Jack left him, he would have lost again, only BIGGER this time since Jack was his real love.  I think he would have turned on the world -- become reclusive, or an old grump who cared for no one because no one cared for him.  I can't see anything else for Ennis. I don't believe he would have gone looking for another man ( or woman) with which to live, so he was left truly alone.  And I think Jack realized this.  Even if Jack started up with Randall, or anyone else, I still think he would have continued to meet Ennis from time to time.  Ennis was his life's blood.  He had to have an occasional shot of Ennis to keep going, even if he became unwilling to continue on with Ennis in such a losing situation as they had going for 20 years. Ennis was his elixir of life, so to speak, and he couldn't do without that.

Good point.  He probably would think that he was not made for love, and would have shut love out entirely.  We already see him doing this to Cassie -- for Jack's sake, I suppose.   Jack meant much to him -- to lose him would surely embitter him.

[tpe]

Would you say that it was Ennis that needed Jack more than the other way round?   Jack had questions, doubts, he was more at ease in the world outside of Brokeback than Ennis was.

Jack was definitely Ennis life line.  I say this because at no time did Ennis ever thought of quitting Jack.  He was unable to do so.  I think it was Ennis hold on Jack, but his unable to move the relationship along put a definite strain on Jack.

Ennis was much in the need to hold on to this relationship than Jack.  Knowing Jack out there somewhere, and not with him, would be too much to bare.  IMO. 

I think in the end, yes: Ennis probably needed Jack more.  Ennis probably never considered losing Jack, even if he saw him less and less over the years.  Jack probably steeled himself gradually over the years to the realization that Ennis would never live with him, and was therefore more mentally prepared for a final break. 

But having said this, I think that both of them would have suffered equally with a final break.  Ennis surely would have suffered greatly.  I cannot see him recovering from such a blow.

[manhattangirl]

Sometimes I think he would have killed Jack rather than see him quit him.

How out of the way thatt this could be one of possibilities.   Rage was a part of Ennis.  This is man who wanted his lover, but on his terms, this was a man so afraid of being found out so he kept his distance from any other relationship except for Jack.   Even the thought of  Jack being with someone, the hint of it was a reason to kill, what would he have done he if Jack just walked away?

Then we are talking of obsession and not love.   How many beers sitting alone in a bar, would it take for the rage to surface?  We're  talking of man who had the ability split himself in two. What would happen with half that belonged to the lover he feels he sacrificed his entire life for? d

[tpe]

How out of the way this could be one of possibilities.   Rage was a part of Ennis.  This is man who wanted his lover, but on his terms, this was a man so afraid of being found out he kept his distance from any other relationship except for Jack.   Even the thought of being with someone, the hinting of it was a reason to kill, what would he have done he if Jack just walked away?

Then we are talking of obsession and not love.   How many beers sitting alone in a bar, would it take for the rage to surface?  We talking of man who had the ability split himself in two, what would happen with half that belong to lover he feels he sacrifice his entire for?

What makes me think he was capable of doing this was the threat he gave Jack during the confrontation scene.

What makes me think that he wouldn't do it is the fact that with the people he cared about or loved, Ennis seemed to have practiced great restraint.  I am thinking here about the two scenes with Alma: where he lets her go to the extra shift at the grocery, and the Thanksgiving scene, where he restrains himself from hitting Alma, even though he was in a rage.

Ennis is quite a complex man, no?  In a way, he was possessed by his love for Jack, but he took great pains to control/regulate it.  It was as if he really didn't know what he wanted...

[welshwitch]

Jack I think would have been capable of living without Ennis - he is open to other possibilities at least. And he could probably attract other men -he's very different now from the unsuccessful young bull-rider who failed to make contact with a rodeo clown. Sure, he's know it was second-best, but he might settle for that in the end. Life is full of such compromises.

Ennis IMO would simply go on becoming more and more Ennis-like, taciturn, shut off from society, and would probably die a somewhat mysterious old recluse.

[tpe]

Jack I think would have been capable of living without Ennis - he is open to other possibilities at least. And he could probably attract other men -he's very different now from the unsuccessful young bull-rider who failed to make contact with a rodeo clown. Sure, he's know it was second-best, but he might settle for that in the end. Life is full of such compromises.

Ennis IMO would simply go on becoming more and more Ennis-like, taciturn, shut off from society, and would probably die a somewhat mysterious old recluse.

Something about Ennis tells me that his marriage with Alma would have also ended in divorce, even if jack had not shown up in Ennis's life.  Do some of you get the same feeling?

[aintfoolin]

 Well, Ennis did have family. He had a brother and sis + two daughters that he seems to care for very much. I don't think if he lost Jack he'd just curl up and die.
Yes he loved Jack, wanted him, but he had a secret that he had to keep and was paranoid about keeping it. This limited his social life,seeing the more people he let in, the more risk of exposure.

 The fact that Ennis wanted to be alone  alot is not strange or suprising to me. Privacy is essential to him and I can relate. What's taken as lonliness for some is bliss for others. He worked on ranches, so no doubt had some friends and aquaintances. I feel even if he'd never met Jack the idea of crowds and people hovering around him constantly would not be his style of life.

After Jack, he may very well see romantic relationships as not worth all the hassle as many have done. But sometimes, this is when love finds people , when they,ve givin up and stopped looking for it. Then boom, the great love of your life comes along. Who says this can't happen in his case?
If it happens, great, if it does'nt, then he will continue to live life as he sees fit. If it's alone, so be it, if that what he wants.  He loved Jack. No doubt about it, wanted to be with him but just could'nt be in the way Jack wanted him to be.  ( living together ) If Jack moved on, I mean really moved on  ( no contact, no meetings) with his life without Ennis, Ennis will survive. But only if he saw that there was no longer a chance of being with Jack again.
 This is Jack's power over Ennis though it seems alot of times Ennis was in control of everything, it was Jack who really owned Ennis.  It would take Jack moving on seriously with someone else to bring it home to Ennis, but as long as Jack is out there free and available in some way Ennis will always have hope of seeing him again. He loved him that much.  After all he was a very handsome guy , no doubt able to attract people of both genders.  Though a loner, Ennis was a diamond in the rough with much to offer.  Jack saw it.  I don't discount him completely.

Ennis never would have killed Jack. Felt like killing him at times?, as we all do  at times ,lovers, husbands wives etc...  , but to actually carry through on this threat of harming Jack in anyway  was not going to happen IMO . He was very upset and jealous of the thought of Jack with someone else, but to physically hurt Jack? I don't think so, but he was human with human frailties. My opinion.

[lamusica]

I think ww has it right where both men are concerned, and I think tpe is right about Ennis and Alma divorcing eventually even if Jack were not in the equation.

It is interesting, I think, that these two men are so similar, and yet so different.  It was their similarities that brought them to BBM in the first place (alone, in need of a job, raised in the west, knew how to do ranch and herding work, etc.), but it was their differences that kept the spark alive until Jack died. They complemented one another so completely; they COULD HAVE HAD A GREAT LIFE TOGETHER.  What the one wasn't, the other one was.  Alas! Ennis couldn't let go of the ideas of propriety and decency he learned from his old man.  Therefore, both men missed out on the full life they might have been able to have together.

[lamusica]

I agree with you, Ain't, that Ennis never would have killed Jack.  I don't see that in Ennis's nature at all.  As you said, tpe, Ennis had great restraint.
     I'm not too sure about Ennis being OK with his loneliness, though.  I say this because Alma brings it up when trying to convince Ennis to move to town.  She reminds him of how lonely he was as a child, and says she doesn't think he wants his kids to grow up so lonely.  Obviously, Ennis had told Alma how lonely he was as a child -- she remembered that and used it to persuade Ennis. I think being alone frightened Ennis.  Maybe that's a big reason why he married Alma in the first place.  He wanted a wife and children to keep the loneliness away.  He didn't want to continue to be so lonely as he was growing up.  I think lonliness can be a friend to some poeple, but I don't think Ennis is one of them.  I also feel that is one reason he took to Jack so strongly right off the bat.  Jack was a talker and a mover and shaker when he and Ennis first went up BBM.  Ennis was attracted to that -- loved to talk to Jack ( wasn't in the habit of talking too much to anyone, as he himself admits), work with him, laugh and share stories with him.  Jack filled the emptiness in Ennis.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis may not want the loneliness, tried in his life to prevent loneliness.  But it was exactly his actions that kept loneliness with him.   We see Ennis in the choices he made, and the actions he took lay the ground work for his lonely existance.    He went ahead and married Alma, and his heart was given to Jack. His sexuality a realization not yet faced or wanted to be, he accepts Jack back in his life, and tried in vein to balance his affair with Jack, and live as husband and father with Alma.   And from the first day of the reunion the cracks of a life he thought he built was beginning to show until it crumbled, and again he's alone.

And because of this balancing act and failure of it, Ennis withdraws slowly  into that loneliness like coping mechanism.   Jack sees it, points it out, "I'm not you" statement during the final confrontation, but with exasperation  Jack concedes  "You're too much for me". 

IMO:  Ennis took loneliness over facing the truth about himself avoiding the pain, which was to come anyway.     

[tpe]

I think ww has it right where both men are concerned, and I think tpe is right about Ennis and Alma divorcing eventually even if Jack were not in the equation.

It is interesting, I think, that these two men are so similar, and yet so different.  It was their similarities that brought them to BBM in the first place (alone, in need of a job, raised in the west, knew how to do ranch and herding work, etc.), but it was their differences that kept the spark alive until Jack died. They complemented one another so completely; they COULD HAVE HAD A GREAT LIFE TOGETHER.  What the one wasn't, the other one was.  Alas! Ennis couldn't let go of the ideas of propriety and decency he learned from his old man.  Therefore, both men missed out on the full life they might have been able to have together.

I agree that they complement each other to the extent that each life would have been incomplete without the other.  In this sense, Ennis would not have had a life without Jack.  Of course there is the possibility of finding someone who could perhaps give the same sense of wholeness to Ennis, but what were the chances then?  It would have been very difficult. 

[manhattangirl]

I agree that they complement each other to the extent that each life would have been incomplete without the other.  In this sense, Ennis would not have had a life without Jack.  Of course there is the possibility of finding someone who could perhaps give the same sense of wholeness to Ennis, but what were the chances then?  It would have been very difficult. 

.   

And really what are the chances for Ennis to find someone else.  IMO slim to none.   His so call "straight life" he would have had with Cassie was impossible, he understood that, we could tell when Jack asked him the question the night before the final confrontation, "you never found any one else to marry".   Heterosexual relationship was no longer possible for him, because it wasn't him, he said good bye to his straight life at that moment.

So now It was almost like unacknowledged acceptance of who he was.  Still unwilling to take that next step, and face the fear that held him back from a life with Jack.     

Sometimes I think Jack should have left Ennis to himself along time ago, like when they quarreled at the stream,  and Jack should have told Ennis if he wanted to live his miserable life, it'll be without him, and mean it.

But was there ever a right time to push Ennis?

[aintfoolin]

Was there a right time to push Ennis ? Yes! ...but Jack did'nt do it. There were times when Ennis was very vulnerable .
 Certainly in my opinion at the end of the confrontation when Ennis broke down in Jack's arms. This was it. Ennis was at his most vulnerable here. He was at the end of his rope with all that had said by Jack . I think all Jack had to do is give the ultimatum at this point. He'd said all he needed to say, including letting Ennis know he was thinking of quitting him for good. This scared Ennis. No Jack? ever again? Oh no.
 This did not compute with Ennis. He had 20 years of sacrifice under his belt with this man  and he was not trying to hear this. He had lost Jack once  already for 4 years,  and well.. the reunion said it all. This  is someone whom Ennis wanted , needed in his life in a way he's never known. He had invested his heart in Jack for 20 years.
Ennis had time to think between the confrontation and when he broke it off with Cassie. Could'nt string her along any longer. What kind of man treats a woman like Cassie this way? Beautiful, smart and goes after what she wants?.... A man who was coming to grips with who he  really was.

Jack's words made Ennis think.
 
He opened up with both barrels on Ennis,  Expressing disatisfaction, confessed to Mexico, threatened to quit Ennis or was thinking about it. Told Ennis the night before he can hardly stand it anymore, affairs, and all them things Ennis did'nt know, all in one meeting?  Each incident taken by itself can be a reason to commit to Jack, but combined , these reasons are impossible to completely ignore. Even for Ennis Del Mar.

 Perhaps Ennis 's treatment of Cassie during their breakup was a sign  that he was getting his house in order for a commitment with Jack or at least a compromise. By not answering her messages or attempting to reach her and explain, and then the cold manner in which he expressed himself to her in the cafe, left little doubt what his intentions were towards her ...there was none. 
 But time was not on his side. Pine creek never happened, but Ennis, I believe had been pushed into making a major decision by Jack IMO in one direction or the other.  He finally exercised His control for once,  played  the ace up His sleeve brought Ennis down to size,  and I for one was glad to see it and hear it.
 The status quo was no longer acceptable by either.  Forced Ennis to say it out loud that he could'nt stand it anymore either. Jack's message?  Sh-t or get off the pot. MHO.

[tpe]

.   

And really what are the chances for Ennis to find someone else.  IMO slim to none.   His so call "straight life" he would have had with Cassie was impossible, he understood that, we could tell when Jack asked him the question the night before the final confrontation, "you never found any one else to marry".   Heterosexual relationship was no longer possible for him, because it wasn't him, he said good bye to his straight life at that moment.

So now It was almost like unacknowledged acceptance of who he was.  Still unwilling to take that next step, and face the fear that held him back from a life with Jack.     

Sometimes I think Jack should have left Ennis to himself along time ago, like when they quarreled at the stream,  and Jack should have told Ennis if he wanted to live his miserable life, it'll be without him, and mean it.

But was there ever a right time to push Ennis?

I had wondered too if things would have been better for both of them had Jack decided to move on earlier.  I guess for Jack, the status quo was a life he was willing to lead, if only to see Ennis every so often.  But with even that gradually being taken away by Ennis, it looked less and less likely that Jack would have accepted this with equanimity. 

Jack started out with some hope of a shred life with Ennis.  He didn't push for this in the hope of Ennis changing his tune over the years.  Perhaps it was a fool's hope to expect Ennis to change, but it was human of Jack to continue hoping through the years.  For Jack, it was a life deferred.  But the deferral was inevitable, because he needed Ennis to share in that life.  It was only in the end when Jack started to think of a life without Ennis.  Would it be a life?  Sure.  But it could have very well been a living death.

[tpe]

Was there a right time to push Ennis ? Yes! ...but Jack did'nt do it. There were times when Ennis was very vulnerable .
 Certainly in my opinion at the end of the confrontation when Ennis broke down in Jack's arms. This was it. Ennis was at his most vulnerable here. He was at the end of his rope with all that had said by Jack . I think all Jack had to do is give the ultimatum at this point. He'd said all he needed to say, including letting Ennis know he was thinking of quitting him for good. This scared Ennis. No Jack? ever again? Oh no.
 This did not compute with Ennis. He had 20 years of sacrifice under his belt with this man  and he was not trying to hear this. He had lost Jack once  already for 4 years,  and well.. the reunion said it all. This  is someone whom Ennis wanted , needed in his life in a way he's never known. He had invested his heart in Jack for 20 years.
Ennis had time to think between the confrontation and when he broke it off with Cassie. Could'nt string her along any longer. What kind of man treats a woman like Cassie this way? Beautiful, smart and goes after what she wants?.... A man who was coming to grips with who he  really was.

Jack's words made Ennis think.
 
He opened up with both barrels on Ennis,  Expressing disatisfaction, confessed to Mexico, threatened to quit Ennis or was thinking about it. Told Ennis the night before he can hardly stand it anymore, affairs, and all them things Ennis did'nt know, all in one meeting?  Each incident taken by itself can be a reason to commit to Jack, but combined , these reasons are impossible to completely ignore. Even for Ennis Del Mar.

 Perhaps Ennis 's treatment of Cassie during their breakup was a sign  that he was getting his house in order for a commitment with Jack or at least a compromise. By not answering her messages or attempting to reach her and explain, and then the cold manner in which he expressed himself to her in the cafe, left little doubt what his intentions were towards her ...there was none. 
 But time was not on his side. Pine creek never happened, but Ennis, I believe had been pushed into making a major decision by Jack IMO in one direction or the other.  He finally exercised His control for once,  played  the ace up His sleeve brought Ennis down to size,  and I for one was glad to see it and hear it.
 The status quo was no longer acceptable by either.  Forced Ennis to say it out loud that he could'nt stand it anymore either. Jack's message?  Sh-t or get off the pot. MHO.

Yes, I think it is important to point out that the status quo was no longer accepatble to both of them. 

So, would it be a life?  I guess in many ways, they didn't have a choice.  They had to go on with their lives if somehow the status quo ceased to be accepatble.  To have stayed on under the same circumstances would have destroyed them both.  So perhaps, the alternative was a life of sorts -- in the sense that it would stop their self-destruction.

[welshwitch]

"Hope deferred maketh the heart sick." Jack lived on hope for so long. Eventually even he must have grown tired of it. To quote a less literary source, "Even the most deathless love can wear out, and mine wore out against your stubbornness."

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Just ran across this thread today.

It's hard for me to see Ennis as anyone other than a recluse if Jack had left him.  The fact that he contacted Jack after that final confrontation leads me to believe he wouldn't have quickly accepted it.  However, if at any point afterwards Jack made it clear that it was over, I don't see Ennis anyone allowing anyone to occupy a significant part of his heart.  Their relationship occupied his heart for around 20 years. It's difficult for me to see him allowing anyone else to earn their own place.  Any other person would be attempting to replace the irreplaceable. I seriously question Ennis's ability to explore the possibility of someone making their own place without diminishing Jack's importance.

I hope I'm making sense here.

[manhattangirl]

You are to me CSC, IMO, being a recluse indeed could be part of Ennis, and losing the one person, he could actually be who he was.  The lost of Jack whether in death or by leaving would be something that could push Ennis futher within himself.   The vision of that trailer out in middle of nowhere, is a haunting picture of how Ennis is inside.

I hope this makes sense.

[tpe]

"Hope deferred maketh the heart sick." Jack lived on hope for so long. Eventually even he must have grown tired of it. To quote a less literary source, "Even the most deathless love can wear out, and mine wore out against your stubbornness."

Sometimes, love dies by living on -- in a state of discontent.

[tpe]

Just ran across this thread today.

It's hard for me to see Ennis as anyone other than a recluse if Jack had left him.  The fact that he contacted Jack after that final confrontation leads me to believe he wouldn't have quickly accepted it.  However, if at any point afterwards Jack made it clear that it was over, I don't see Ennis anyone allowing anyone to occupy a significant part of his heart.  Their relationship occupied his heart for around 20 years. It's difficult for me to see him allowing anyone else to earn their own place.  Any other person would be attempting to replace the irreplaceable. I seriously question Ennis's ability to explore the possibility of someone making their own place without diminishing Jack's importance.

I hope I'm making sense here.

I do agree that Ennis probably would have reacted this way -- similar to what happened after Jack died.  Would it have been permanent?  It is hard to say, but I would think that it is human nature to withdraw from the world in times of trouble and sadness.  And it is not uncommon to find people withdraw indefinitely, most especially for a love that is irrevocably lost.