Author Topic: How long would have Jack and Ennis relationship endure? (Read 118221 times)

myprivatejack · « **on:** Jul 28, 2007, 05:49 AM »

Few days ago I was discussing with a friend about the future of our boys if Jack hadn´t been killed;I said that at the point of their last reunion Jack was near to give up, because he realised Ennis state of mind, clearly cinic in the scene he shows his paranoia and Jack told him he could go to live in Texas,didn´t allow them a real future together.If he quited him he was going to suffer maybe all his life,because it´s hard to be quitted,but it´s worse to quite someone you love still-I know it for my own experience...-;but if he was able to betray Ennis perhaps he was going to be able to beguin a new life with another man who gave him the security he needed.What´s your opinion?.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #1 on:** Jul 30, 2007, 05:04 AM »

The relationship endured alot. Marriages, divorce, infidelity, kids, fear and rejection. Yet the love remained. Stood the test of time. Had Jack not died , itwould certainly leave much speculation about what would become of these two.
If Jack met Ennis at Pinecreek, a serious discussion would have taken place in my opinion about where they will go from there. Ennis now knows that Jack is at least thinking about moving on , quitting Ennis, but he's not quite there yet. He's caught between a future with the one he loves deeply and a hard place.
He said " I wish I knew how to quit you" How does he do that? Can Jack ever really quit Ennis for good? and still be happy with someone else? For someone else to really come between this They are such a part of each other emotionally. Comfortability and knowing each other so well in every way, bonds them together. This love bond would make it very hard for either of them to love again this way.

tpe · « **Reply #2 on:** Jul 30, 2007, 07:21 AM »

I think I had mentioned elsewhere that although I believe Jack had probably lost hope in his dream for Ennis to share a life with him and that Jack was ready to move one, I think that Jack would never stop loving Ennis.

That Jack would move on is an opinion also voiced by Gyllenhaal in a past interview.

Could it have been possible for Ennis and Jack to ever meet again even after Jack had moved on? Something tells me: yes. For one, Jack intended to move back to LF -- certainly much closer to Ennis than Texas. I also suspected that perhaps the move to LF with a ranch neighbor was partly planned to push Ennis.

Whatever possibilities we think plausible, I think that their relationship could not endure the way it was. They had already gone through too much heartache in the near 20 years they had been together in a sort of status quo, and something tells me that it could no longer be sustained. Change was necessary. If Ennis did change, then perhaps the relationship would endure. If not, then the relationship would end, even as the love stays with them forever.

welshwitch · « **Reply #3 on:** Jul 30, 2007, 11:08 AM »

Jane austen claimed for women the quality of "loving longest, when hope or even existence is gone". It's quite possible, as tpe says, to part from somone but go onh loving them from a distance - I think Jack would have done this consciously, but Ennis unconsciouly or at least unwillingly.

tpe · « **Reply #4 on:** Jul 31, 2007, 07:55 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 30, 2007, 11:08 AM

Jane austen claimed for women the quality of "loving longest, when hope or even existence is gone". It's quite possible, as tpe says, to part from somone but go onh loving them from a distance - I think Jack would have done this consciously, but Ennis unconsciouly or at least unwillingly.

WW, it is perhaps fair to say that for Ennis, the relationship with Jack endured IN SPITE of himself. He was his own greatest enemy...

myprivatejack · « **Reply #5 on:** Jul 31, 2007, 11:36 AM »

I agree with you,tpe,Ennis made himself suffer,and of course made Jack suffer also.In any sense,he was the responsible for the sensation of progressive break that their relationship began to undergo(I´m not speaking about the deepness of their love).Nevertheless,I don´t think Jack was going to quite Ennis completely;he tried only to live his life and give him other hopes,other experiences he much time before he saw he wasn´t going to have with his lover.

tpe · « **Reply #6 on:** Jul 31, 2007, 12:24 PM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Jul 31, 2007, 11:36 AM

I agree with you,tpe,Ennis made himself suffer,and of course made Jack suffer also.In any sense,he was the responsible for the sensation of progressive break that their relationship began to undergo(I´m not speaking about the deepness of their love).Nevertheless,I don´t think Jack was going to quite Ennis completely;he tried only to live his life and give him other hopes,other experiences he much time before he saw he wasn´t going to have with his lover.

Yes, I go back and forth on the question of Jack quitting Ennis entirely. Death sort of saved Jack in the end, no? Perhaps a life without Ennis would have entailed a kind of death for Jack anyway.

Perhaps we should wonder why the relationship endured for so long, given how everything seemed to have been stacked against them. Its duration was remarkable. Perhaps it could have gone one in spite of themselves.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #7 on:** Jul 31, 2007, 01:28 PM »

Well,it´s a little "heavy" to say that perhaps death sort of saved Jack,but in any sense it set him free from his suffering,that if we become a little shabby,"was like a death in spite of being alive".And yes,the relationship lasted a long time bearing in mind that everything was against them,but this was the greatness of their feelings,wasn´t it ?.

lamusica · « **Reply #8 on:** Jul 31, 2007, 05:27 PM »

I'd like to think that, had Jack lived, one day in the far distant future, with Lureen long passed away, Jack and ENnis might have spent their golden years together in a home for brokendown cowboys somewhere out in the wilderness.

Seriously, though, I think they would have spent their final days together somehow, in some way. Maybe they would have moved into Jack's folk's house in LF, or somewhere tucked away into nowhere.
I'm just a romantic at heart, and can never imagine that they would have said final good-byes to one another until death separated them. Just MHO.

tpe · « **Reply #9 on:** Aug 01, 2007, 07:31 AM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Jul 31, 2007, 01:28 PM

Well,it´s a little "heavy" to say that perhaps death sort of saved Jack,but in any sense it set him free from his suffering,that if we become a little shabby,"was like a death in spite of being alive".And yes,the relationship lasted a long time bearing in mind that everything was against them,but this was the greatness of their feelings,wasn´t it ?.

Yes, it was. Their feelings for each other kept things alive in spite of everything. And the feelings would live on in Ennis, long after Jack's death. Ennis didn't lose everything entirely.

tpe · « **Reply #10 on:** Aug 01, 2007, 07:33 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jul 31, 2007, 05:27 PM

I'd like to think that, had Jack lived, one day in the far distant future, with Lureen long passed away, Jack and ENnis might have spent their golden years together in a home for brokendown cowboys somewhere out in the wilderness.
Seriously, though, I think they would have spent their final days together somehow, in some way. Maybe they would have moved into Jack's folk's house in LF, or somewhere tucked away into nowhere.
I'm just a romantic at heart, and can never imagine that they would have said final good-byes to one another until death separated them. Just MHO.

Well, had they lived to a ripe old age, there is no telling what could have happened. They could have reconnected.

It's good to be Romantic in a cold, prosaic world.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #11 on:** Aug 04, 2007, 02:11 PM »

Being realistic,I find difficult and hard that Ennis and Jack could be together along the years-something different is that they kept on loving each other...-,simply because there was too many things against them,too often themselves.Moreover,Jack was firmly decided at the end to begin a new relationship with another man-being this Randall or whoever-and had given up fightinng for his dreams...Being romantic,now they´d be 63 in a world that has changed a lot since their Brokeback times;perhaps thay had kept in contact in some way during the years and,when the circunstances were propitious,they reunited again and ended their days together.I firmly believe that people who love each other,will be together some day,no matter how difficult it be.Or at least,it´s good to believe it¡.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #12 on:** Aug 04, 2007, 02:43 PM »

Spoken like a true romantic myprivatejack! I agree. It's good to believe that people who love on this level, even if they go their seperate ways at some points will always and forever return back home to the comfort of that love.So it is with Jack and Ennis. It was so deep with them.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #13 on:** Aug 05, 2007, 11:36 AM »

Let´s be more romantic still:I don´t know how American laws are regarding to homosexuality.Here in Spain marriage is allowed and,even,you can have a widow pension.Let´s imagine that Ennis and Jack found one more time and begin a relationship again in which fears have already no sense because Law and a great part of society´s opinion were by their side.Ennis would be a nice old man,crab and a little homophobe still,but Jack recovered the charm and happinness of that young shepherd that was seeing his lover go away after an embrace when he was almost sleeping,with a face and a look that showed an endless peace and love...Is it romantic enough?.

tpe · « **Reply #14 on:** Aug 08, 2007, 11:12 AM »

I think their relationship would have lasted had society been different. But I think love survives and even bears fruit in the harshest conditions. Their love was special because it was pretty much impossible, under the given circumstances. To have such a moment, if only briefly, does not mar the beauty. Such is the beauty of a desert flower.

lightnin flat · « **Reply #15 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 12:58 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Aug 08, 2007, 11:12 AM

I think their relationship would have lasted had society been different. But I think love survives and even bears fruit in the harshest conditions. Their love was special because it was pretty much impossible, under the given circumstances. To have such a moment, if only briefly, does not mar the beauty. Such is the beauty of a desert flower.

yes if curcumstances and society were different i do believe they would of stayed together because they did love each other very much.jack was willing to go to ennis at every opportunity.and even give up his son for him but ennis had a fear of being found out wich at the end of the day was the only thing keeping them apart fear on ennis,s part .would jack have stayed faithfull to ennis i am not sure about that.

ragtimecowboy · « **Reply #16 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 11:27 PM »

Had Jack not died, I think it would all depend on Ennis's future actions or inaction. Had Lureen answered and told him he no longer lived there, and had moved up to Lightening Flat with Randall. The relationship would probably end right then if Ennis chose not to go there and let his feelings be known. Had Randall chose not to go, and Ennis never found out, it would continue, I think indefinitely, albeit Jack would be very frustrated.

welshwitch · « **Reply #17 on:** Aug 24, 2007, 05:27 AM »

In that anyone who you've loved becomes a part of you, they would always keep the other one within, whether or not they went on meeting, I think.

lightnin flat · « **Reply #18 on:** Aug 24, 2007, 04:09 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 24, 2007, 05:27 AM

In that anyone who you've loved becomes a part of you, they would always keep the other one within, whether or not they went on meeting, I think.
[/ quote]

yes that is true you keep them with you always even if they not with you.for whatever reason

tpe · « **Reply #19 on:** Aug 27, 2007, 03:06 PM »

Quote from: lightnin flat on Aug 23, 2007, 12:58 PM

yes if curcumstances and society were different i do believe they would of stayed together because they did love each other very much.jack was willing to go to ennis at every opportunity.and even give up his son for him but ennis had a fear of being found out wich at the end of the day was the only thing keeping them apart fear on ennis,s part .would jack have stayed faithfull to ennis i am not sure about that.

The relationship seemed to have endured even as Jack ceased to be entirely faithful to Ennis. Well, I guess, the core of him remained faithful -- his love for Ennis remained intact even as he sought release from more transient affairs.

But would that core have remained intact had he moved on with Randall, I wonder? I beleiev so, but this is only how I feel...

milomorris · « **Reply #20 on:** Aug 27, 2007, 07:08 PM »

Hello folks.

This is my first post here at ennisjack.com, and what a great thread this has been so far.

Personally, I think that if Jack had lived, Pine Creek would have been one serious come to Jesus meeting. I think Ennis would have been forced into a decision one way or the other.

Something that nags at me from time to time is this: what if Ennis had found the courage and made up his mind to give life with Jack a chance BEFORE he got the postcard stamped "deceased?" I know that is terribly tragic. Tom Harris wrote a one-shot where this actually happens.

Milo

lightnin flat · « **Reply #21 on:** Aug 28, 2007, 06:36 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Aug 27, 2007, 03:06 PM

The relationship seemed to have endured even as Jack ceased to be entirely faithful to Ennis. Well, I guess, the core of him remained faithful -- his love for Ennis remained intact even as he sought release from more transient affairs.

But would that core have remained intact had he moved on with Randall, I wonder? I beleiev so, but this is only how I feel...

i was thinking would jack have stayed faithfull to ennis if they made their realationship permanent when they met up after 4 years and got a ranch somewere like jack wanted.he loved ennis very much that never was in doubt .his trip to mexico and if he did have any thing going with randall wich i really hope he didnt were just ways of trying to fill the emptiness .i like to think if they were together jack would of been fulfilled but i am not sure.

tpe · « **Reply #22 on:** Aug 28, 2007, 07:11 AM »

Quote from: milomorris on Aug 27, 2007, 07:08 PM

Hello folks.

This is my first post here at ennisjack.com, and what a great thread this has been so far.

Personally, I think that if Jack had lived, Pine Creek would have been one serious come to Jesus meeting. I think Ennis would have been forced into a decision one way or the other.

Something that nags at me from time to time is this: what if Ennis had found the courage and made up his mind to give life with Jack a chance BEFORE he got the postcard stamped "deceased?" I know that is terribly tragic. Tom Harris wrote a one-shot where this actually happens.

Milo

Welcome to this forum, Milo.

I had always felt that Jack would have dropped everything has Ennis agreed to a life together. My feeling is that Jack may very well have been alive had Ennis gave in during their last meeting. I think Ennis partly realized this possibility, and was devastated by it.

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Aug 28, 2007, 07:14 AM »

Quote from: lightnin flat on Aug 28, 2007, 06:36 AM

i was thinking would jack have stayed faithfull to ennis if they made their realationship permanent when they met up after 4 years and got a ranch somewere like jack wanted.he loved ennis very much that never was in doubt .his trip to mexico and if he did have any thing going with randall wich i really hope he didnt were just ways of trying to fill the emptiness .i like to think if they were together jack would of been fulfilled but i am not sure.

I think so. It was because he did not have Ennis that made Jack wander. There is of course always a possibility of betrayal in any relationship. Something tells me that waiting nearly 20 years for someone speaks not just of a strong desire and faith. Remember that in the end, Jack gave up only because he felt that to pursue his dream was only hurting Ennis -- at least, this was my view of it.

lightnin flat · « **Reply #24 on:** Aug 28, 2007, 07:32 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Aug 28, 2007, 07:14 AM

I think so. It was because he did not have Ennis that made Jack wander. There is of course always a possibility of betrayal in any relationship. Something tells me that waiting nearly 20 years for someone speaks not just of a strong desire and faith. Remember that in the end, Jack gave up only because he felt that to pursue his dream was only hurting Ennis -- at least, this was my view of it.

most annoying part we will never know for sure.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #25 on:** Aug 28, 2007, 10:41 AM »

First of all,welcome,Milo and I hope you enjoy this forum.Tpe,I really think that a life together would have fullfilled Jack completely;we all agree that his trips to Mexico were a kind of relief, a way to fill the emptiness that Ennis lack of comitment made him feel.Jack only gave up when he saw this at the end and realised that his dream was not only hurting Ennis,but also and above all,hurting himself badly.(Maybe was not a real hurt the reiterative negation of living together in so many ways during so many years?).I don´t believe Jack broke the relationship,in spite of his flirt with Randall,but Ennis.

tpe · « **Reply #26 on:** Aug 29, 2007, 07:21 AM »

Quote from: lightnin flat on Aug 28, 2007, 07:32 AM

most annoying part we will never know for sure.

Perhaps it is also because we shall never know that we continue to be haunted by their love.

tpe · « **Reply #27 on:** Aug 29, 2007, 07:26 AM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Aug 28, 2007, 10:41 AM

First of all,welcome,Milo and I hope you enjoy this forum.Tpe,I really think that a life together would have fullfilled Jack completely;we all agree that his trips to Mexico were a kind of relief, a way to fill the emptiness that Ennis lack of comitment made him feel.Jack only gave up when he saw this at the end and realised that his dream was not only hurting Ennis,but also and above all,hurting himself badly.(Maybe was not a real hurt the reiterative negation of living together in so many ways during so many years?).I don´t believe Jack broke the relationship,in spite of his flirt with Randall,but Ennis.

Like you, I certainly don't think that the affair with Randall proves or disproves anything. And I do understand your point of view about Ennis being responsible. But I think deep-down, both of us (perhaps all of us here) think that although the dream is dead, the love is intact. Perhaps Ennis is to blame as far as the demise of Jack's dream is concerned. But Jack's hurt didn't really destroy his love for Ennis; in the same way, Jack's death also didn't put an end to that love, even as it did destroy any hope of Ennis bringing back the dream of a shared life.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #28 on:** Aug 29, 2007, 10:21 AM »

I agree with you in the sense that neither Jack´s death,nor even if he had quited Ennis,had destroyed the love they shared.But I really think that ,very specially the doubts and fears Ennis felt along his life,but also that Jack didn´t take the initiative in putting an ultimatum to his lover,had hurt the relationship at the point,not of destroying it,but to force Jack to look for a life of his own,seeing that it has no future while Ennis hadn´t had a comitment, a real and whole comitment about living together.As I said in another post,perhaps they had met themselves several years after and renew their relationship in an environment of a greater tolerance.At least, it´s nice to imagine it.

tpe · « **Reply #29 on:** Aug 30, 2007, 08:08 AM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Aug 29, 2007, 10:21 AM

I agree with you in the sense that neither Jack´s death,nor even if he had quited Ennis,had destroyed the love they shared.But I really think that ,very specially the doubts and fears Ennis felt along his life,but also that Jack didn´t take the initiative in putting an ultimatum to his lover,had hurt the relationship at the point,not of destroying it,but to force Jack to look for a life of his own,seeing that it has no future while Ennis hadn´t had a comitment, a real and whole comitment about living together.As I said in another post,perhaps they had met themselves several years after and renew their relationship in an environment of a greater tolerance.At least, it´s nice to imagine it.

Certainly, their faults hurt the relationship -- stpped it from growing, from flowering. Sometimes, a relationship lasts because partners become completely comfortable with each other. But sometimes it lasts because they no longer care.

My point here is that a "lasting" relationship does not necessarily mean that the relationship is healthy. I think this was the case in the end of the almost 20 years of Ennis and jack "wrestling" with their souls.

At the same time (as we all know), just because a relationship doesn't last doesn't mean that a love is dead. Indeed, sometimes, people let go because it is the greatest act of love one can do. Perhaps such was the case here, also.