Topic: How long would have Jack and Ennis relationship endure?

[myprivatejack]

I agree completely with you,tpe     I only can add that sometimes one thing is LOVING someone and another very different is LIVING with someone, and that sometimes also we must say NO to this someone or let him/her say NO and GOOD-BYE.It´s sad,but this is love and life¡

[tpe]

So I wonder: perhaps the question should really be: How long would have Jack and Ennis love endure?  Would the answer be simple for most of us here?  I don't know.  For me, their relationship died with jack's death -- perhaps even before, in the last confrontation.  But the love didn't.

[myprivatejack]

Yes,but perhaps the love didn´t die with Jack´s death because it idealized him somehow in Ennis´mind?The problem and the topic I began is if the relationship would have endured in such a difficult circumstances they have to overcome and with themselves being so differently complementaries or complementarily differents as they were.Perhaps it would be not so idealistic as we´ve imagined thanks to our romantic souls and our attraction to our boys;but something inside me tells me that love had endured forever,because I told before that you can love a person but can´t live with this one.Human mind is more complex than a Chinese hyeroglyphic¡

[tpe]

Yes,but perhaps the love didn´t die with Jack´s death because it idealized him somehow in Ennis´mind?The problem and the topic I began is if the relationship would have endured in such a difficult circumstances they have to overcome and with themselves being so differently complementaries or complementarily differents as they were.Perhaps it would be not so idealistic as we´ve imagined thanks to our romantic souls and our attraction to our boys;but something inside me tells me that love had endured forever,because I told before that you can love a person but can´t live with this one.Human mind is more complex than a Chinese hyeroglyphic¡

I think Jack's death brought Ennis to a full realization of that love wand what he lost.  In a sense, Jack didn't die, for nothing, no?  By his death, he opened Ennis's eyes -- and his heart, I suppose, to the importance of seizing love with both hands while you can (as hinted at when he accepts Alma Jr.'s invitation.)

[myprivatejack]

Yes,and also Jack´s death made Ennis realize how we must fight for what we want,to hold on to the love we have and to speak properly about our fears,wishes,dreams or projects about the other person,before it´s too late whe we lost this person-for death or for abandon-.It´s such a pity that Ennis reacted positively when he couldn ´t fulfill the comittment he denied during half his life,precisely when it was too late already.Cowardice,perhaps?.

[tpe]

I don't know if it was cowardice.  I feel that it was a realization born out of profound regret.  He could afford to be generous now -- given that he had lost almost everything.  It would not bring what was lost back.  But perhaps he realized like so many of us that a sense of regret/remorse is a fulfilment in and of itself.

 

[myprivatejack]

Again I agree with your appreciation,tpe But perhaps the profound regret isn´t born from a previous cowardice? Or how we could call to prefer during 20 years suffering and denying your own feelings to go through the danger,but also the shame,of living with the one you love?.I don´t know.

[tpe]

Again I agree with your appreciation,tpe But perhaps the profound regret isn´t born from a previous cowardice? Or how we could call to prefer during 20 years suffering and denying your own feelings to go through the danger,but also the shame,of living with the one you love?.I don´t know.

Personally, I think it was partly pride and not all cowardice that at the root of Ennis's hard-headedness.  True, Ennis must have had deep-seated fears that stopped him to go any further when Jack was alive.  But I do think that after a while, "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it" became almost a motto for Ennis.  Perhaps he wanted to prove to himself that he could stand it -- show mastery of himself in a bid to be in total control of his own destiny.

The sad part is that nobody is ever in complete control of his/her own destiny.  To this this way is sheer folly.

[welshwitch]

Love, if it's the real thing, lasts a lifetime, IMO. A relationship can disintegrate for all sorts of reasons but love may and can survive that break-up. That doesn't preclude the understanding that the relationship doesn't work and isn't going to.

[tpe]

Love, if it's the real thing, lasts a lifetime, IMO. A relationship can disintegrate for all sorts of reasons but love may and can survive that break-up. That doesn't preclude the understanding that the relationship doesn't work and isn't going to.

This is true.  A break-up certainly doesn't mean the end of love.

[shane fuson]

 #$#I really think that if jack had lived to recive the postcard from ennis they would have lived out many happy golden years together. If you notice the expression on ennis face when he is sending the card and his body language he is happy and at peace with himself I think he finally got too the point to let go of his fear and too let himself love freely what is so heartbreaking is that it was too late.yes ,I totally think that if jack had lived they would still be together although how or if ennis would have explained his love for jack to his daughters I dont know.

[welshwitch]

Well, plenty of children as they grow up have to accept unexpected revelations about their parents and seem to cope. Ennis's two daughters were themselves moving on and also by the 80s into a different world from that of the 50s and 60s in which their father grew up. Anyway, he might not need to tell them - supposing that J and E bought a ranch and worked it together - would that be so unusual? Couldn't they just appear to outsiders as business partners? Alma would have been long gone and Lureen would have divorced Jack, so to all intenrts and purposes they'd be just two ex-husbands now left on their own to cope. If the girls came to visit, J and E probably wouldn't spend their time standing round kissing each other and ripping each other's clothes off....

[tpe]

#$#I really think that if jack had lived to recive the postcard from ennis they would have lived out many happy golden years together. If you notice the expression on ennis face when he is sending the card and his body language he is happy and at peace with himself I think he finally got too the point to let go of his fear and too let himself love freely what is so heartbreaking is that it was too late.yes ,I totally think that if jack had lived they would still be together although how or if ennis would have explained his love for jack to his daughters I dont know.

Welcome, shane fuson. 

I did notice the expression on Ennis's face when he was sending out the card.  And I can only imagine what Jack's face must have looked like when he saw the "You Bet." postcard.

Perhaps Jack only needed a sign from Ennis.  Would Jack have agreed to go back to a status quo?  Or perhaps was Ennis was ready to make a change.

Somehow, the scene with Cassie in the end seems to tell me that perhaps Ennis was indeed ready for a change.  Who knows?  Perhaps he was even ready to make a change with Jack.  We'll probably never know, alas...  The card came too late...

[myprivatejack]

Perhaps Cassie gave Ennis a lesson about how to live your love without knowing it,because his face when she´s gone crying and his when Alma Jr. tells him:-"Yes,daddy,he loves me",make us think that he´s applying these feelings and words to his relationship with Jack,doesn´t it ?.But I don´t think he was ready for a change with Cassie,because he always knew their relationship wasn´t going to arrive too far away,since he didn´t want to make her unhappy,as he did,indirectly or not,with Alma.What we know for sure is that,in spite of their last argument,in which they said all what they must have said long before,Ennis wanted to see Jack again by taking the iniciative with an invitation card-that never arrived to Jack-.This means something,IMO.

[tpe]

Perhaps Cassie gave Ennis a lesson about how to live your love without knowing it,because his face when she´s gone crying and his when Alma Jr. tells him:-"Yes,daddy,he loves me",make us think that he´s applying these feelings and words to his relationship with Jack,doesn´t it ?.But I don´t think he was ready for a change with Cassie,because he always knew their relationship wasn´t going to arrive too far away,since he didn´t want to make her unhappy,as he did,indirectly or not,with Alma.What we know for sure is that,in spite of their last argument,in which they said all what they must have said long before,Ennis wanted to see Jack again by taking the iniciative with an invitation card-that never arrived to Jack-.This means something,IMO.

yes, myprivatejack.  I do think that Casie taught Ennis something -- and I also can't help but feel that the final scene with Cassie allowed him to take stock of his own feelings, and perhaps see Jack's in a clearer light.  Somehow, I also felt that there was a gradual turning pojnt here, even as the short story said that the final confrontation torqued things back to ALMOST where things were.

[myprivatejack]

I don't know if I can "coming back" this old thread into life,but here I am¡.I've sometimes thought if the love Jack and Ennis felt for each other wasn't in certain measure extolled for two reasons-and I'm not speaking about this love didn't exist...-:
1st.:The distance and the impossibility of seeing each other more often.We all know that not seeing a person we love is longing for them,and this longing increases this person's figure in our mind and heart.They spent half their life having a great need of seeing each other-even if both of them showed in different ways...-and almost never getting it.It's logical that this produced an increasing in the feelings,and then,a extolling of these,because they couldn't live it as soon as they wanted and needed.,with all its consequences-included the erosion-.
2nd.:The memories of their first summer in BBM.I know for my own experience that very often you remember the place and time you've been particularilly happy as real in current time.And that,even if you're by your loved person side,if the circumstances have changed-and changed for bad-you hold on to these memories more than it's advisable.Sometimes you adapt these memories to your real and present life without realising that neither you,nor the other person and,above all,the environment are the same than in these happy times.You always see the other as he/she was in your private BBM,when where're a collaboration in the duties,a companionship,an union that a living together weren't going to make similar.Because these times never were going to be the same again;they weren't alone in the mountain,the environment around them was against them,and so on.
MHO.

[Matt Nasty]

i think their relationship would have endured forever no matter what hardships they came accross their love was so intense and brilliant nothing could have broke them apart if it wasnt surely they would'nt constantly seek each other forgiveness and comfort when they felt they had done something wrong. but i guess we'll never know.

[tpe]

I don't know if I can "coming back" this old thread into life,but here I am¡.I've sometimes thought if the love Jack and Ennis felt for each other wasn't in certain measure extolled for two reasons-and I'm not speaking about this love didn't exist...-:
1st.:The distance and the impossibility of seeing each other more often.We all know that not seeing a person we love is longing for them,and this longing increases this person's figure in our mind and heart.They spent half their life having a great need of seeing each other-even if both of them showed in different ways...-and almost never getting it.It's logical that this produced an increasing in the feelings,and then,a extolling of these,because they couldn't live it as soon as they wanted and needed.,with all its consequences-included the erosion-.
2nd.:The memories of their first summer in BBM.I know for my own experience that very often you remember the place and time you've been particularilly happy as real in current time.And that,even if you're by your loved person side,if the circumstances have changed-and changed for bad-you hold on to these memories more than it's advisable.Sometimes you adapt these memories to your real and present life without realising that neither you,nor the other person and,above all,the environment are the same than in these happy times.You always see the other as he/she was in your private BBM,when where're a collaboration in the duties,a companionship,an union that a living together weren't going to make similar.Because these times never were going to be the same again;they weren't alone in the mountain,the environment around them was against them,and so on.
MHO.

From the fist point, you would say that continuous and closer proximity would have possibly frayed the relationship, and that distance kept their clashes in abeyance?  There is a grain of truth to this, especially as far as Ennis was concerned.

Their continuous haggling over whether or not they move into closer proximity with each other looked more like an isssue for Ennis, no?  I wonder if he would have become reconciled to things had they moved closer to each other, or would it bring his inner conflicts to a critical point -- a point that may destroy their relationship?

[myprivatejack]

From the fist point, you would say that continuous and closer proximity would have possibly frayed the relationship, and that distance kept their clashes in abeyance?  There is a grain of truth to this, especially as far as Ennis was concerned.

Their continuous haggling over whether or not they move into closer proximity with each other looked more like an isssue for Ennis, no?  I wonder if he would have become reconciled to things had they moved closer to each other, or would it bring his inner conflicts to a critical point -- a point that may destroy their relationship?

 ,but I don't understand what you mean by "kept their clashes in abeyance",although I imagine its meaning...I wasn't saying they didn't love each other and that all was a kind of illusion,a memory of the old good times,no way...I was only saying that both their keeping away from each other and the memories of their first times together in BBM were two factors that could have exalted their feelings.Sometimes we long for another person and this longing makes our feelings greater,for we remember how this person was-and how he/she could have been in our imagination-more than how this person is now-and how he/she would be if was living with us or,at least,closer to us-.Another very important point,maybe the most important of all,would be that they were able to overcome the fear of being in the middle of all the suspicion glances-as I say in another thread-and the impact it could have in their daily life,specially in Ennis case.I don't know if this makes sense...

[tpe]

,but I don't understand what you mean by "kept their clashes in abeyance",although I imagine its meaning...I wasn't saying they didn't love each other and that all was a kind of illusion,a memory of the old good times,no way...I was only saying that both their keeping away from each other and the memories of their first times together in BBM were two factors that could have exalted their feelings.Sometimes we long for another person and this longing makes our feelings greater,for we remember how this person was-and how he/she could have been in our imagination-more than how this person is now-and how he/she would be if was living with us or,at least,closer to us-.Another very important point,maybe the most important of all,would be that they were able to overcome the fear of being in the middle of all the suspicion glances-as I say in another thread-and the impact it could have in their daily life,specially in Ennis case.I don't know if this makes sense...

By that phrase, I didn't mean to suggest that they were somehow incompatible with each other or that they didn't love each other.  By that phrase, I meant that distance allowed them not to get into each other's nerves, assuming that Ennis would never give in to Jack's dream of a life together.  Had jack seen Ennis more frequently, the constant push and pull as to sharing a life together would have probably created a lot of tension.  The distance between them was in a sense healthy, even though it simply delayed the inevitable confrontation.  I hope this makes more sense...

[myprivatejack]

By that phrase, I didn't mean to suggest that they were somehow incompatible with each other or that they didn't love each other.  By that phrase, I meant that distance allowed them not to get into each other's nerves, assuming that Ennis would never give in to Jack's dream of a life together.  Had jack seen Ennis more frequently, the constant push and pull as to sharing a life together would have probably created a lot of tension.  The distance between them was in a sense healthy, even though it simply delayed the inevitable confrontation.  I hope this makes more sense..

Yes,Thomas,it makes a lot of sense for me;it was only that sometimes I don't understand the meaning of some phrases,even I do for the context...I can't speak English so well as to have a very rich vocabulary and sometimes I'm a mess...
For me where're two reasons for this healthy distance,as you call it; it avoided indeed that "the main question" was posed more frequently and,even,that their differences in seeing life as same-sex couple were too evident.Without forgetting the natural wearing down of sharing a life,of course,but this is another story...And in second place,it allowed that in the distance they often remembered only the good sides of their relationship;the more you're longing for someone,the more you need to see him/her and the more you loved them as a result.At the distance,love grows somehow.And,I repite,BBM memories were a way to exalting their love,´cause sometimes we remember happy past times more than living present ones that aren't so much happy.IMO.

[Matt Nasty]

going a bit off the current conversation and just giving a straight forward answer to the question ive got to say FOREVER i cant accept it any other way.

Yes,Thomas,it makes a lot of sense for me;it was only that sometimes I don't understand the meaning of some phrases,even I do for the context...I can't speak English so well as to have a very rich vocabulary and sometimes I'm a mess...

i think your english is very good myprivatejack

[myprivatejack]

i think your english is very good myprivatejack

Matthew¡ As Ayashae said,you're all an English gentleman...

[lamusica]

,but I don't understand what you mean by "kept their clashes in abeyance",although I imagine its meaning...I wasn't saying they didn't love each other and that all was a kind of illusion,a memory of the old good times,no way...I was only saying that both their keeping away from each other and the memories of their first times together in BBM were two factors that could have exalted their feelings.Sometimes we long for another person and this longing makes our feelings greater,for we remember how this person was-and how he/she could have been in our imagination-more than how this person is now-and how he/she would be if was living with us or,at least,closer to us-.Another very important point,maybe the most important of all,would be that they were able to overcome the fear of being in the middle of all the suspicion glances-as I say in another thread-and the impact it could have in their daily life,specially in Ennis case.I don't know if this makes sense...

You guys both make good points.  MPJ, I agree that distance often makes the heart yearn more for the other person, and makes the yearner more prone to imagining the other has qualities that maybe he really doesn't have.  But Thomas also makes a good point when he says that, had they lived together or closer to one another, and seen each other more often, they might have argued or been at odds with one another more often, too --familiarity breeds contempt.  Both adages seem to work here, and I think they're both valid.

[tpe]

Yes,Thomas,it makes a lot of sense for me;it was only that sometimes I don't understand the meaning of some phrases,even I do for the context...I can't speak English so well as to have a very rich vocabulary and sometimes I'm a mess...
For me where're two reasons for this healthy distance,as you call it; it avoided indeed that "the main question" was posed more frequently and,even,that their differences in seeing life as same-sex couple were too evident.Without forgetting the natural wearing down of sharing a life,of course,but this is another story...And in second place,it allowed that in the distance they often remembered only the good sides of their relationship;the more you're longing for someone,the more you need to see him/her and the more you loved them as a result.At the distance,love grows somehow.And,I repite,BBM memories were a way to exalting their love,´cause sometimes we remember happy past times more than living present ones that aren't so much happy.IMO.

Yes, the "main question" was certainly something they didn't have to face because they were appart most of the time.  then again, it was because of this that Jack's frustration kept getting worse, and Ennis became more and more complacent.

But as you said, distance also increases love -- making people think back fondly of when they were together.

Hence, distance in this case is a two-edged sword, no?  It was a way of avoiding certain things, even as it increased their fondness for each other during the long separations.

[tpe]

You guys both make good points.  MPJ, I agree that distance often makes the heart yearn more for the other person, and makes the yearner more prone to imagining the other has qualities that maybe he really doesn't have.  But Thomas also makes a good point when he says that, had they lived together or closer to one another, and seen each other more often, they might have argued or been at odds with one another more often, too --familiarity breeds contempt.  Both adages seem to work here, and I think they're both valid.

Thanks lamusica.  I do feel that distance was a mixed blessing -- or curse, whichever way you look at it, I suppose!  It's two sides of the coin...

[Matt Nasty]

just looking through this topic and i noticed there are many factors people have mentioned that made jack and ennis's relationship hard, but im glad to say most people seem to beleive that despite the hardships they would have stayed together.  i think a love of strong as theres would have lasted infinately if jack hadn't been killed im pretty sure they would have been together always and who knows maybe they would have took up on jacks dream of a ranch when times got moderner.

hope that maid sense sometimes its not very clear what im saying lol.

[myprivatejack]

You guys both make good points.  MPJ, I agree that distance often makes the heart yearn more for the other person, and makes the yearner more prone to imagining the other has qualities that maybe he really doesn't have.  But Thomas also makes a good point when he says that, had they lived together or closer to one another, and seen each other more often, they might have argued or been at odds with one another more often, too --familiarity breeds contempt.  Both adages seem to work here, and I think they're both valid.

Or this person think that the other's qualities are greater than they really are,a kind of idealisation of the loved being...Of course,living together keeps one's feet on the ground,and more in this case where so many problems threatened a good shared life.Yes,both versions work here.Thanks.

Yes, the "main question" was certainly something they didn't have to face because they were appart most of the time.  then again, it was because of this that Jack's frustration kept getting worse, and Ennis became more and more complacent.

But as you said, distance also increases love -- making people think back fondly of when they were together.

Hence, distance in this case is a two-edged sword, no?  It was a way of avoiding certain things, even as it increased their fondness for each other during the long separations.

And maybe because distance increased their fondness for each other,the "main question" was increasing also more and more,at least,in Jack's mind.So,even if avoided to pose,it resulted a kind of vicious circle,no?.Yes,distance definitively was here a two-edged sword...

just looking through this topic and i noticed there are many factors people have mentioned that made jack and ennis's relationship hard, but im glad to say most people seem to beleive that despite the hardships they would have stayed together.  i think a love of strong as theres would have lasted infinately if jack hadn't been killed im pretty sure they would have been together always and who knows maybe they would have took up on jacks dream of a ranch when times got moderner.

hope that maid sense sometimes its not very clear what im saying lol.

It makes a lot of sense,Matthew, at least for me.But sometimes life is not as easy as we would like,and it's clear that Ennis and Jack had many difficulties in their relationship.And that maybe the love could continue,but the relationship didn't.

[Matt Nasty]

It makes a lot of sense,Matthew, at least for me.But sometimes life is not as easy as we would like,and it's clear that Ennis and Jack had many difficulties in their relationship.And that maybe the love could continue,but the relationship didn't.

maybe i suppose its just another one of those things that is open to interpretation

[myprivatejack]

maybe i suppose its just another one of those things that is open to interpretation

YOU BET