Topic: How long would have Jack and Ennis relationship endure?

[tpe]

It makes a lot of sense,Matthew, at least for me.But sometimes life is not as easy as we would like,and it's clear that Ennis and Jack had many difficulties in their relationship.And that maybe the love could continue,but the relationship didn't.

Again, a very good distinction made between the love and the relationship.

And as Zankou noted, this is all open to interpretation...

[myprivatejack]

Again, a very good distinction made between the love and the relationship.

And as Zankou noted, this is all open to interpretation...

Yes,and there're so many questions in BBM open to almost as many interpretations as viewers it can have...What it's clear is that,sometimes,living together means several walls to crash against-letting aside love and happiness to share life-;and it's worst still if the main wall is oneself,as in this case Ennis was.

[tpe]

Yes,and there're so many questions in BBM open to almost as many interpretations as viewers it can have...What it's clear is that,sometimes,living together means several walls to crash against-letting aside love and happiness to share life-;and it's worst still if the main wall is oneself,as in this case Ennis was.

The toughest obstacle -- the hardest wall to get through -- is indeed oneself.  It would seem that in the end, the love would endure inside Ennis, but the fact that the love between Ennis and Jack was not fully bridged in Jack's lifetime meant that it was an endurance of something less than perfect.

 

[Emzan]

I don't know what would have happend with them, but I'd like to think that they stayed together forever and that they could have a sweet life, but I feel that it was up to Ennis if they could stay together or not. I think Jack was ready to leave him in that last "fight" they had....

[myprivatejack]

I don't know what would have happend with them, but I'd like to think that they stayed together forever and that they could have a sweet life, but I feel that it was up to Ennis if they could stay together or not. I think Jack was ready to leave him in that last "fight" they had....

I think so,Emelie.Or at least,Jack had arrived to a situation he couldn't keep on managing.It could have been the end,or maybe,it could have be a kind of "ultimatum" to Ennis;as you say,it was up to him if they could stay together or not.I think it was the situation they must have lived several years ago,if not for Jake's fear to push Ennis against the ropes-do you say so?-,to force him too much to deciding something he wasn't prepared to.MHO.

[Emzan]

I think so,Emelie.Or at least,Jack had arrived to a situation he couldn't keep on managing.It could have been the end,or maybe,it could have be a kind of "ultimatum" to Ennis;as you say,it was up to him if they could stay together or not.I think it was the situation they must have lived several years ago,if not for Jake's fear to push Ennis against the ropes-do you say so?-,to force him too much to deciding something he wasn't prepared to.MHO.

yea you're right

[tpe]

I don't know what would have happend with them, but I'd like to think that they stayed together forever and that they could have a sweet life, but I feel that it was up to Ennis if they could stay together or not. I think Jack was ready to leave him in that last "fight" they had....

I somehow have the feeling that had Ennis taken the leap, the relationship would certainly have endured. 

[myprivatejack]

I somehow have the feeling that had Ennis taken the leap, the relationship would certainly have endured. 

I completely agree with you,Thomas.But the solution was in Ennis hands,more than in Jack´s or in the ensemble of both.And there was the real problem...

[tpe]

I completely agree with you,Thomas.But the solution was in Ennis hands,more than in Jack´s or in the ensemble of both.And there was the real problem...

Jack was I think part of the solution, but he would not stand in the way of its fulfillment.  As you said, the problem was that the other half was in Ennis's hands, and even if the balance between the opposing forces was maintained, it wore them out as time passed.

[myprivatejack]

Jack was I think part of the solution, but he would not stand in the way of its fulfillment.  As you said, the problem was that the other half was in Ennis's hands, and even if the balance between the opposing forces was maintained, it wore them out as time passed.

But not only Ennis was a problem to find this solution,but also Jack...I mean that he wasn't willing to "frighten" Ennis by making him take a decision far before he was prepared to,and that was a rather good decision during the first years(even innmediately after the divorce,because it was too soon to adapt himself to a new life when he had hardly adapted to another one,as single man...).But after that,Jack must bear in mind that his own marriage was breaking down,that he felt himself as undervalued in his own home and that living in his own ranch-with or without Ennis...-would be a way of self-esteem and self-confirmation as a man,able to manage his own life...In this situation,it would be easy for him take the money his father-in-law offered to "dissappear"-as he confessed to Ennis in the motel scene-,for having at last his own ranch.Sooner or later,it would be easier that his lover could have join him,maybe as a ranch hand first,in a more "hidden" way to be together.Not always Jack was so open and fighter as we have thought about him; I believe he also had his fears and didn't find the way to overcome them.
 

[tpe]

But not only Ennis was a problem to find this solution,but also Jack...I mean that he wasn't willing to "frighten" Ennis by making him take a decision far before he was prepared to,and that was a rather good decision during the first years(even innmediately after the divorce,because it was too soon to adapt himself to a new life when he had hardly adapted to another one,as single man...).But after that,Jack must bear in mind that his own marriage was breaking down,that he felt himself as undervalued in his own home and that living in his own ranch-with or without Ennis...-would be a way of self-esteem and self-confirmation as a man,able to manage his own life...In this situation,it would be easy for him take the money his father-in-law offered to "dissappear"-as he confessed to Ennis in the motel scene-,for having at last his own ranch.Sooner or later,it would be easier that his lover could have join him,maybe as a ranch hand first,in a more "hidden" way to be together.Not always Jack was so open and fighter as we have thought about him; I believe he also had his fears and didn't find the way to overcome them.
 

I suspect that Jack must have thought that frightening Ennis more would anly bring him more pain -- and make him more conflicted.  Alas, perhaps he should have realized that this might have been necessary, to get Ennis see things in perspective.  His desire not to hurt Ennis proved his inevitable undoing...

[myprivatejack]

I suspect that Jack must have thought that frightening Ennis more would anly bring him more pain -- and make him more conflicted.  Alas, perhaps he should have realized that this might have been necessary, to get Ennis see things in perspective.  His desire not to hurt Ennis proved his inevitable undoing...

And avoiding people from suffering for a while,you often get a greater suffering during more time...That's a great mistake on Jack's side,who also should have seen things in perspective,IMO,and force them somehow when the occasion was right.

[aintfoolin]

But not only Ennis was a problem to find this solution,but also Jack...I mean that he wasn't willing to "frighten" Ennis by making him take a decision far before he was prepared to,and that was a rather good decision during the first years(even innmediately after the divorce,because it was too soon to adapt himself to a new life when he had hardly adapted to another one,as single man...).But after that,Jack must bear in mind that his own marriage was breaking down,that he felt himself as undervalued in his own home and that living in his own ranch-with or without Ennis...-would be a way of self-esteem and self-confirmation as a man,able to manage his own life...In this situation,it would be easy for him take the money his father-in-law offered to "dissappear"-as he confessed to Ennis in the motel scene-,for having at last his own ranch.Sooner or later,it would be easier that his lover could have join him,maybe as a ranch hand first,in a more "hidden" way to be together.Not always Jack was so open and fighter as we have thought about him; I believe he also had his fears and didn't find the way to overcome them.


 

 I agree with this. I think that Jack was so caught up in his fear of *spooking* Ennis, that he missed opportunities to came at the situation from a different angle. though he was doing everything right, it was'nt working for him. Had he taken the money from LD and started his own ranch, I don't feel that Ennis would have condemned Jack to too many lonely nights before he came calling in some fashion. It was another option for Jack to pursue. Back off and let Ennis come to him, instead of  him always pursuing Ennis. Either way, the natural order of all things human would have taken place. Jack's fear of loosing Ennis completely was too strong  to  overcome. But he had options . MO.

[myprivatejack]

I agree with this. I think that Jack was so caught up in his fear of *spooking* Ennis, that he missed opportunities to came at the situation from a different angle. though he was doing everything right, it wasn't working for him. Had he taken the money from LD and started his own ranch, I don't feel that Ennis would have condemned Jack to too many lonely nights before he came calling in some fashion. It was another option for Jack to pursue. Back off and let Ennis come to him, instead of him always pursuing Ennis. Either way, the natural order of all things human would have taken place. Jack's fear of loosing Ennis completely was too strong  to  overcome. But he had options . MO.

I completely agree.It's what I said about that not only Ennis had the responsibility for their lack of communication and their impossibility in taking a real decision about their future...Sometimes the fear of putting somebody against the ropes makes us being coward,and cowardice makes us have a lot of mistakes that are just the same that we wanted to avoid...It's one of the lots of human's contradictions.
You've made an intelligent remark in that Jack should have let Ennis come to him,instead of being always pursuing Ennis.Sometimes one must let the other person free,pretending she or he is not so interested in them as before,to let them "breath" again and realise for themselves what they are at the point of losing.It's also a self-pride question,IMO.

[aintfoolin]

Absolutley, Ennis's will  was never *tested*by Jack for his benefit and his alone.  His need for Ennis, overshadowed his own needs and wants. Forgetting what Ennis wants and what Ennis will do if.... made him forget how to get what he wanted so desperatly. A ranch of his own and Ennis, though maybe not living with him at first would still be a constant in his life. A baby step by baby step process where eventually everybody wins.. Ennis only maintained his status  in the affair because he was allowed to. It is a matter of self pride at times., as you said, Jack taking his life into his own hands. Only then could he pick and choose his own destiny.

 Yes Ennis did wear  the cloak of stoicism and he was never going to shed it without  a strong prompt/alternative or catylist  that packed a solid punch. I think it could go both ways too. Either Ennis will withdraw further,( Jack's fear) or he will come forward even more. It all depends on how Jack chose to play the cards dealt to him.I felt at times, Ennis really wanted to believe, but just needed a good solid reason to overcome his fears. Something he could see and know for sure , that nobody was gonna be hurt or harmed. If Ennis could see it coming in time, he could fight and defend. He will never go in ,sight unseen. Basically, Ennis is an independent loner. Perhaps an independent Jack would've gone alot further in *testing* Ennis's resolve. It's a possibility imo and if it so happened I think the relationship would endure with growth. Anyway, it was what it was.  :ghug:2 cents.

[Matt Nasty]

Absolutley, Ennis's will  was never *tested*by Jack for his benefit and his alone.  His need for Ennis, overshadowed his own needs and wants. Forgetting what Ennis wants and what Ennis will do if.... made him forget how to get what he wanted so desperatly. A ranch of his own and Ennis, though maybe not living with him at first would still be a constant in his life. A baby step by baby step process where eventually everybody wins.. Ennis only maintained his status  in the affair because he was allowed to. It is a matter of self pride at times., as you said, Jack taking his life into his own hands. Only then could he pick and choose his own destiny.

 Yes Ennis did wear  the cloak of stoicism and he was never going to shed it without  a strong prompt/alternative or catylist  that packed a solid punch. I think it could go both ways too. Either Ennis will withdraw further,( Jack's fear) or he will come forward even more. It all depends on how Jack chose to play the cards dealt to him.I felt at times, Ennis really wanted to believe, but just needed a good solid reason to overcome his fears. Something he could see and know for sure , that nobody was gonna be hurt or harmed. If Ennis could see it coming in time, he could fight and defend. He will never go in ,sight unseen. Basically, Ennis is an independent loner. Perhaps an independent Jack would've gone alot further in *testing* Ennis's resolve. It's a possibility imo and if it so happened I think the relationship would endure with growth. Anyway, it was what it was.  :ghug:2 cents.

i agree with alot of your theorectical thought here, but you are right it was what it was and i suppose better to have loved and lost then never truely loved at all.
i am a strong beleiver death is not the end so IMO jack and ennis' relationship was just on more of a break than anything else.

[tpe]

And avoiding people from suffering for a while,you often get a greater suffering during more time...That's a great mistake on Jack's side,who also should have seen things in perspective,IMO,and force them somehow when the occasion was right.

Jack was perhaps blinded by his own love -- and his belief that the relationship would endure only through patience.

[tpe]

Absolutley, Ennis's will  was never *tested*by Jack for his benefit and his alone.   His need for Ennis, overshadowed his own needs and wants. Forgetting what Ennis wants and what Ennis will do if.... made him forget how to get what he wanted so desperatly. A ranch of his own and Ennis, though maybe not living with him at first would still be a constant in his life. A baby step by baby step process where eventually everybody wins.. Ennis only maintained his status  in the affair because he was allowed to. It is a matter of self pride at times., as you said, Jack taking his life into his own hands. Only then could he pick and choose his own destiny.

 Yes Ennis did wear  the cloak of stoicism and he was never going to shed it without  a strong prompt/alternative or catylist  that packed a solid punch. I think it could go both ways too. Either Ennis will withdraw further,( Jack's fear) or he will come forward even more. It all depends on how Jack chose to play the cards dealt to him.I felt at times, Ennis really wanted to believe, but just needed a good solid reason to overcome his fears. Something he could see and know for sure , that nobody was gonna be hurt or harmed. If Ennis could see it coming in time, he could fight and defend. He will never go in ,sight unseen. Basically, Ennis is an independent loner. Perhaps an independent Jack would've gone alot further in *testing* Ennis's resolve. It's a possibility imo and if it so happened I think the relationship would endure with growth. Anyway, it was what it was.  :ghug:2 cents.

Perhaps Jack underestimated Ennis.  Perhaps he should have pushed the limits a bit more and allow Ennis's world to fray.  As they say, a tempered blade maintains its sharpness in the long term.

[athena0204]

If society had been accepting, then Ennis wouldn't have had that dreadful fear that kept him from being with Jack. They would have never left each other's side. But because of society's ignorance and hate, Ennis was afraid, and so their relationship suffered, but their feelings of love for each other remained strong, because their love is eternal. They had something that most people never find in this life, they had true love. They were meant for each other, they were truly soulmates. Such a beautiful bond is unbreakable and eternal.

[canmore]

I think maybe the love would have laster forever but the relationship would not. Jack was talking to his parent to settle in the range with an other man than Ennis when he died. It is mentioned during the confrontation between Ennis and Jack's parents.
Maybe Ennis would have opened his eyes and would have gone to live with Jack, but it is likely that he would still have been haunted by the vision of the dead gay farmer his father shown him when he was young.

[tpe]

Yes, there is a great distinction between the love and the relationship.  I too would like to think that the love endures.  Don't we all say that love transcends death itself?

[Matt Nasty]

I think maybe the love would have laster forever but the relationship would not. Jack was talking to his parent to settle in the range with an other man than Ennis when he died. It is mentioned during the confrontation between Ennis and Jack's parents.
Maybe Ennis would have opened his eyes and would have gone to live with Jack, but it is likely that he would still have been haunted by the vision of the dead gay farmer his father shown him when he was young.

the love would deffinatly last forever i have no doubt about it, i also think if the relationship ever ended it would not be long before they realised they could not survive without their relationship jack and ennis are like to halfs of a whole like ying and yang opposites that couldnt exist without each other or with out a small part of each other at there inner core. jack was the dreamer ennis was the logical fearful on but this is the way they worked and each one had a little bit of the others personality deep down, to me their love was so strong a break in the relationship would soon be mended once they realised they could not live without each other i just cannot ever see ennis and jack living apart still loving each other and not having a relationship, it would be only a matter of time before they were running back to each other.IMO

[Emzan]

the love would deffinatly last forever i have no doubt about it, i also think if the relationship ever ended it would not be long before they realised they could not survive without their relationship jack and ennis are like to halfs of a whole like ying and yang opposites that couldnt exist without each other or with out a small part of each other at there inner core. jack was the dreamer ennis was the logical fearful on but this is the way they worked and each one had a little bit of the others personality deep down, to me their love was so strong a break in the relationship would soon be mended once they realised they could not live without each other i just cannot ever see ennis and jack living apart still loving each other and not having a relationship, it would be only a matter of time before they were running back to each other.IMO

I agree 100% of what you're saying

[myprivatejack]

the love would deffinatly last forever i have no doubt about it, i also think if the relationship ever ended it would not be long before they realised they could not survive without their relationship jack and ennis are like to halfs of a whole like ying and yang opposites that couldnt exist without each other or with out a small part of each other at there inner core. jack was the dreamer ennis was the logical fearful on but this is the way they worked and each one had a little bit of the others personality deep down, to me their love was so strong a break in the relationship would soon be mended once they realised they could not live without each other i just cannot ever see ennis and jack living apart still loving each other and not having a relationship, it would be only a matter of time before they were running back to each other.IMO

I agree with you,but also with Canmore; the relationship could last less than their love,that's for sure.But the confrontation scene had been strong enough as to put things in order,IMO; so maybe as you say,it would be only a matter of time before they were running back to each other.Maybe they had realised their own faults and mistakes and,so,they had found a solution for the future,no matter if they had broken down in the first moment.A second opportunity is often better than the first...

[tpe]

the love would deffinatly last forever i have no doubt about it, i also think if the relationship ever ended it would not be long before they realised they could not survive without their relationship jack and ennis are like to halfs of a whole like ying and yang opposites that couldnt exist without each other or with out a small part of each other at there inner core. jack was the dreamer ennis was the logical fearful on but this is the way they worked and each one had a little bit of the others personality deep down, to me their love was so strong a break in the relationship would soon be mended once they realised they could not live without each other i just cannot ever see ennis and jack living apart still loving each other and not having a relationship, it would be only a matter of time before they were running back to each other.IMO

Hello zankou.  So if I understand you correctly, you still think that the end of their relationshop spelled doom for both of them -- even if their love were to endure...

Somehow, I think there is a grain of truth to this, if this is indeed what you mean.

[Matt Nasty]

Hello zankou.  So if I understand you correctly, you still think that the end of their relationshop spelled doom for both of them -- even if their love were to endure...

Somehow, I think there is a grain of truth to this, if this is indeed what you mean.

well in a way this is what i meant but the main point i was trying to get accross was if they broke up im sure they would get back together sfter realising they couldnt live with out each other but i suppose what you said about them being doomed if the relationship ended is true to my words because if they broke up and never got back together i think their lives would be full of regret but in my personal opinion if the relationship ever ended it wouldnt be long before they patched up and got back together.

[tpe]

well in a way this is what i meant but the main point i was trying to get accross was if they broke up im sure they would get back together sfter realising they couldnt live with out each other but i suppose what you said about them being doomed if the relationship ended is true to my words because if they broke up and never got back together i think their lives would be full of regret but in my personal opinion if the relationship ever ended it wouldnt be long before they patched up and got back together.

This was how I would want it also -- that Jack perhaps moving on with Randall didn't mean that he would not have come back to Ennis, had he lived.  For a person to invest nearly 20 years on a dream signifies that it will not easily die.

[aintfoolin]

Trying to move on after Brokback was an exercise in futility. They tried this with Lureen and Alma. Did'nt work.

[tpe]

Trying to move on after Brokback was an exercise in futility. They tried this with Lureen and Alma. Did'nt work.

Yes, I have to agree with you.  Every diversion proved a dead end.  There is no reason to think that Randall would not have ended up the same way...

[Matt Nasty]

Yes, I have to agree with you.  Every diversion proved a dead end.  There is no reason to think that Randall would not have ended up the same way...

hmmmmm intresting