Author Topic: How long would have Jack and Ennis relationship endure? (Read 118270 times)

aintfoolin · « **Reply #90 on:** Mar 17, 2008, 03:33 PM »

Of course imo Randall would be more of a threat to the relationship than the women. It then becomes a matter of safety and the male ego. The ball would definitly be in Jack's court. What he does with it could be a matter of life and death for both Jack and Ennis. Just a thought.

athena0204 · « **Reply #91 on:** Mar 17, 2008, 07:47 PM »

There love would endure forever. They couldn't be together, but since they had true love, it trascended time. They knew this from their first summer on Brokeback Mountain in 1963. They knew the bond between them was unbreakable...and wherever they went, their heart were always with each other. Time and distance meant nothing...their love endured. Just look at the scene of the reunion kiss. It's obvious that there hadn't been a day that had gone by in those four years that they hadn't thought of each other and wished they were together.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #92 on:** Mar 18, 2008, 07:00 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 17, 2008, 03:33 PM

Of course imo Randall would be more of a threat to the relationship than the women. It then becomes a matter of safety and the male ego. The ball would definitly be in Jack's court. What he does with it could be a matter of life and death for both Jack and Ennis. Just a thought.

I agree,aintfoolin; Randall,or any other man who could have an special relationship with any of them,would be a more serious threat than the women.As a matter of fact,they had married to accomplish a duty that society imposed to be "a real man",what society hoped of them...But another man in between not always meant a more probable relationship,more according to their innest feelings; but also,and above all,a greatest "step" to them to do.And once done,more difficult to break because they should have the same struggle.I mean that going out with Cassie,f.e.,was-as Pink Floyd said...-"another brick in the wall" in their perfect man building;but, going out with another man,would be repeating these same fears,mistakes and problems one more time...And if you're willing to pass for all this again,it necessarily means to go deepest into it,no?.
For this reason,I've always thought Ennis was almost happy when Jack told him he was dating a woman-not a serious threat,he thought,and moreover,nobody is going to point us as "queer"...-.But he was not so happy when he knew Jack was having sexual relationships with men,first because the threat was greater then; second,because he could feel diminished in his "macho man" pride, and third,and the most important of all,because he knew that answered to Jack's deep frustration and deceivement about their situation.
Really,the ball was on Jack's court,for the first time after so many years;I would like to think that the final confrontation was so great,they said so many hidden reproaches,that unavoidably it must have a solution in any sense...And my first hope it has always been that the struggle had opened Ennis eyes enough as to sent him a card to see each other again where they had arranged something about it...And Jack had answered as they hoped and wished,even if he was sad,cold and distant firstly; a good crash is the best way sometimes to react...

myprivatejack · « **Reply #93 on:** Mar 18, 2008, 07:02 AM »

Quote from: athena0204 on Mar 17, 2008, 07:47 PM

There love would endure forever. They couldn't be together, but since they had true love, it trascended time. They knew this from their first summer on Brokeback Mountain in 1963. They knew the bond between them was unbreakable...and wherever they went, their heart were always with each other. Time and distance meant nothing...their love endured. Just look at the scene of the reunion kiss. It's obvious that there hadn't been a day that had gone by in those four years that they hadn't thought of each other and wished they were together.

I agree.When love is so great,there always be a bond that unite these persons,and no matter space,time,or any other circumstances...Even if the relationship ends,or transforms,there´s something that never does.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #94 on:** Mar 18, 2008, 08:02 AM »

maybe i am being naive but i dont think ennis and jack would ever stop there meetingsi dont think they ever could i know it is common beleif here to beleive that the love would endure but the relation ship would end and their meeting cease but in my mind this couldnt be if this started to happen and they never arranged a time together for a while, i think both ennis and jack would be miserable and would realise they needed to be with each other.
as for randle well i dont think anymore of randle then i think of the mexcan prostitute just a make shift replacement jack can pretend is ennis until he next gets to see ennis. i know i probably sound repetative but i cannot imagine a life for jack or ennis that is not revolving around the other i mean even in the month on end they didnt see each other for, IMO their motivating force was the knowledge they were going to see each other soon.

tpe · « **Reply #95 on:** Mar 18, 2008, 08:07 AM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Mar 18, 2008, 08:02 AM

maybe i am being naive but i dont think ennis and jack would ever stop there meetingsi dont think they ever could i know it is common beleif here to beleive that the love would endure but the relation ship would end and their meeting cease but in my mind this couldnt be if this started to happen and they never arranged a time together for a while, i think both ennis and jack would be miserable and would realise they needed to be with each other.
as for randle well i dont think anymore of randle then i think of the mexcan prostitute just a make shift replacement jack can pretend is ennis until he next gets to see ennis. i know i probably sound repetative but i cannot imagine a life for jack or ennis that is not revolving around the other i mean even in the month on end they didnt see each other for, IMO their motivating force was the knowledge they were going to see each other soon.

It is really hard to say. Like you, I would like to think that they would never had stood the test of not seeing each other forever. But whatever the answer, we should be comforted by the fact that their love was there to stay -- even after the mortal death of one and the living death of the other.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #96 on:** Mar 18, 2008, 08:13 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 18, 2008, 08:07 AM

It is really hard to say. Like you, I would like to think that they would never had stood the test of not seeing each other forever. But whatever the answer, we should be comforted by the fact that their love was there to stay -- even after the mortal death of one and the living death of the other.

mmmm... im sure after when ennis would die they would be together forever no judgement no pain just each other and their love, and i dont think anyone can stop that not randall not anybody.

tpe · « **Reply #97 on:** Mar 18, 2008, 08:21 AM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Mar 18, 2008, 08:13 AM

mmmm... im sure after when ennis would die they would be together forever no judgement no pain just each other and their love, and i dont think anyone can stop that not randall not anybody.

I wonder sometimes if Ennis longed for death, after Jack had passed on...

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #98 on:** Mar 18, 2008, 08:25 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 18, 2008, 08:21 AM

I wonder sometimes if Ennis longed for death, after Jack had passed on...

i think on some lever he did but also i dont think he would go as far to commit suicide or anything i mean he still had somethings in his life he cared for his daughters for example i think for them he would live his life fully knowing it was only a matter of time before he and jack were reunited.

tpe · « **Reply #99 on:** Mar 19, 2008, 07:22 AM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Mar 18, 2008, 08:25 AM

i think on some lever he did but also i dont think he would go as far to commit suicide or anything i mean he still had somethings in his life he cared for his daughters for example i think for them he would live his life fully knowing it was only a matter of time before he and jack were reunited.

True, maybe his love for his daughters kept him alive. Certainly his love for Jack also endured. But I wonder whether Ennis was largely dead to the world -- as implied by his isolation even from his family...

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #100 on:** Mar 19, 2008, 09:52 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 19, 2008, 07:22 AM

True, maybe his love for his daughters kept him alive. Certainly his love for Jack also endured. But I wonder whether Ennis was largely dead to the world -- as implied by his isolation even from his family...

well i have mentioned before some were i beleive ennis and jack are like the whole ying yang theory neither exisiting without the the other so when jake dide IMO ennis also partially died and only death will cause them to live again, if you understand my meaning both are only dead until they are together again so in otherwords when ennis dies and they are reunited.

athena0204 · « **Reply #101 on:** Mar 19, 2008, 11:58 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 18, 2008, 08:21 AM

I wonder sometimes if Ennis longed for death, after Jack had passed on...

I do believe that he did think of dying sometimes...but I agree that he wouldn't have actually killed himself, because Jack had taught him there was so much to live for, and Ennis had his daughters and his memories of Jack, so he would hold on for a while in this life. And I completely agree with Zankou, after Jack's death, Ennis did spend the rest of his life hating himself for not listening to Jack, and for ever letting Jack out of his sight in the first place in the summer of '63. But despite the regret and sorrow he felt he over that, he held on in this life, living each day the best he could, because he knew he would see Jack again in the next life. There was a much better place where they would be forever young and happy together, just Ennis and Jack and their true love, no ignorant and oppressive society, no cruelties of this world, no other people getting in the way, no pain, no sorrow, just the two of them together forever. It was that dream of "going home" that Ennis held onto, that in death he would find the life he and Jack always deserved to have but couldn't have here in this world.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #102 on:** Mar 19, 2008, 12:02 PM »

Quote from: athena0204 on Mar 19, 2008, 11:58 AM

I do believe that he did think of dying sometimes...but I agree that he wouldn't have actually killed himself, because Jack had taught him there was so much to live for, and Ennis had his daughters and his memories of Jack, so he would hold on for a while in this life. And I completely agree with Zankou, after Jack's death, Ennis did spend the rest of his life hating himself for not listening to Jack, and for ever letting Jack out of his sight in the first place in the summer of '63. But despite the regret and sorrow he felt he over that, he held on in this life, living each day the best he could, because he knew he would see Jack again in the next life. There was a much better place where they would be forever young and happy together, just Ennis and Jack and their true love, no ignorant and oppressive society, no cruelties of this world, no other people getting in the way, no pain, no sorrow, just the two of them together forever. It was that dream of "going home" that Ennis held onto, that in death he would find the life he and Jack always deserved to have but couldn't have here in this world.

hmmmmmm thanks for that, you said it better then i did

aintfoolin · « **Reply #103 on:** Mar 20, 2008, 02:59 AM »

Quote from: athena0204 on Mar 19, 2008, 11:58 AM

I do believe that he did think of dying sometimes...but I agree that he wouldn't have actually killed himself, because Jack had taught him there was so much to live for, and Ennis had his daughters and his memories of Jack, so he would hold on for a while in this life. And I completely agree with Zankou, after Jack's death, Ennis did spend the rest of his life hating himself for not listening to Jack, and for ever letting Jack out of his sight in the first place in the summer of '63. But despite the regret and sorrow he felt he over that, he held on in this life, living each day the best he could, because he knew he would see Jack again in the next life. There was a much better place where they would be forever young and happy together, just Ennis and Jack and their true love, no ignorant and oppressive society, no cruelties of this world, no other people getting in the way, no pain, no sorrow, just the two of them together forever. It was that dream of "going home" that Ennis held onto, that in death he would find the life he and Jack always deserved to have but couldn't have here in this world.

beautifully said athena0204,

I agree, He loved his daughters too much to seriously consider suicide. Too much against his nature.I feel he just made a vow to himself to redeem himself in the eyes of Jack's loving memory whenever the opportunity presented itself. Attending his girl's wedding or re-visiting Jack's parents may have been good examples of that. Speculation, but maybe...just sayin.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #104 on:** Mar 20, 2008, 07:08 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 20, 2008, 02:59 AM

beautifully said athena0204,

I agree, He loved his daughters too much to seriously consider suicide. Too much against his nature.I feel he just made a vow to himself to redeem himself in the eyes of Jack's loving memory whenever the opportunity presented itself. Attending his girl's wedding or re-visiting Jack's parents may have been good examples of that. Speculation, but maybe...just sayin.

I agree in everything you've said,aintfoolin.I'm sure he had thought sometimes in dying because life hadn't have a meaning for him in the beginning.But he wasn't going to take his own life consciously because I see that keep on living was for him a kind of penitence; paying for his faults just being and feeling himself alone...And as you say,redeeming himself learning from these same faults to change his behaviour's patterns onwards; this is something that can be implicit in his statement "Jack,I swear..." IMO.The two examples you've put are only the beginning of this "new" Ennis somehow.

tpe · « **Reply #105 on:** Mar 20, 2008, 08:12 AM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Mar 19, 2008, 09:52 AM

well i have mentioned before some were i beleive ennis and jack are like the whole ying yang theory neither exisiting without the the other so when jake dide IMO ennis also partially died and only death will cause them to live again, if you understand my meaning both are only dead until they are together again so in otherwords when ennis dies and they are reunited.

Quote from: athena0204 on Mar 19, 2008, 11:58 AM

I do believe that he did think of dying sometimes...but I agree that he wouldn't have actually killed himself, because Jack had taught him there was so much to live for, and Ennis had his daughters and his memories of Jack, so he would hold on for a while in this life. And I completely agree with Zankou, after Jack's death, Ennis did spend the rest of his life hating himself for not listening to Jack, and for ever letting Jack out of his sight in the first place in the summer of '63. But despite the regret and sorrow he felt he over that, he held on in this life, living each day the best he could, because he knew he would see Jack again in the next life. There was a much better place where they would be forever young and happy together, just Ennis and Jack and their true love, no ignorant and oppressive society, no cruelties of this world, no other people getting in the way, no pain, no sorrow, just the two of them together forever. It was that dream of "going home" that Ennis held onto, that in death he would find the life he and Jack always deserved to have but couldn't have here in this world.

I think I understand, although it is not clear to me sometimes if Ennis believed we would see Jack again in another life. The swearing in the end would not probably mean much unless he believed that Jack would hear him, no? So perhaps he did.

tpe · « **Reply #106 on:** Mar 20, 2008, 08:17 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 20, 2008, 02:59 AM

beautifully said athena0204,

I agree, He loved his daughters too much to seriously consider suicide. Too much against his nature.I feel he just made a vow to himself to redeem himself in the eyes of Jack's loving memory whenever the opportunity presented itself. Attending his girl's wedding or re-visiting Jack's parents may have been good examples of that. Speculation, but maybe...just sayin.

Quote from: myprivatejack on Mar 20, 2008, 07:08 AM

I agree in everything you've said,aintfoolin.I'm sure he had thought sometimes in dying because life hadn't have a meaning for him in the beginning.But he wasn't going to take his own life consciously because I see that keep on living was for him a kind of penitence; paying for his faults just being and feeling himself alone...And as you say,redeeming himself learning from these same faults to change his behaviour's patterns onwards; this is something that can be implicit in his statement "Jack,I swear..." IMO.The two examples you've put are only the beginning of this "new" Ennis somehow.

I like the term used here "to redeem himself." Redemption is very much part of endurance. It will endure because it has the poser to redeem.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #107 on:** Mar 20, 2008, 09:01 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 20, 2008, 08:12 AM

I think I understand, although it is not clear to me sometimes if Ennis believed we would see Jack again in another life. The swearing in the end would not probably mean much unless he believed that Jack would hear him, no? So perhaps he did.

yes i think i have mentioned once in another thread ennis saying jack i swear indicates that he beleives jack is around to hear him.

Tony · « **Reply #108 on:** Mar 20, 2008, 10:45 AM »

These last posts, about Ennis' frame of mind at the end, caused me to look a little closer. The SS ends with Ennis seemingly lost, and
battered by feverish dreams of Jack, to the point his mental health seems crippled.
But the movie shows a different version, covering a lot of territory. We see Ennis putting up numbers on his mailbox, and almost seeming
to have gotten on with his life, and no sign of depression. And he is happy to see his daughter. But then, some sense of being lost and alone-
"If you don't got nothing, you don't need nothing". And yet, some decision, some response to his daughter's love, to chuck it all and go to her
wedding. And then, she's gone, and we find he has kept the shirts, there to see, every single day, and they are the treasure that keeps him going.
They were not hidden away, but a daily part of his life.
It seems then, that he had come to terms with no real happiness ever being possible without Jack, but stubbornly getting along with
supporting himself and living through, to the end, sort of limping through life. The relationship----permanent.
The posts suggesting he never would have said "Jack, ....I swear..." unless he felt he was, in some way heard, go a long, long way into
whether he had any hope they would ever meet again. He kept up his life, yes, but he never left Jack, and saw no reason to....move on.
He took Jack with him, and we are left to wonder what hopes he may have had of what could be past the lives we all live.

athena0204 · « **Reply #109 on:** Mar 20, 2008, 11:24 AM »

Quote from: Tony on Mar 20, 2008, 10:45 AM

These last posts, about Ennis' frame of mind at the end, caused me to look a little closer. The SS ends with Ennis seemingly lost, and
battered by feverish dreams of Jack, to the point his mental health seems crippled.
But the movie shows a different version, covering a lot of territory. We see Ennis putting up numbers on his mailbox, and almost seeming
to have gotten on with his life, and no sign of depression. And he is happy to see his daughter. But then, some sense of being lost and alone-
"If you don't got nothing, you don't need nothing". And yet, some decision, some response to his daughter's love, to chuck it all and go to her
wedding. And then, she's gone, and we find he has kept the shirts, there to see, every single day, and they are the treasure that keeps him going.
They were not hidden away, but a daily part of his life.
It seems then, that he had come to terms with no real happiness ever being possible without Jack, but stubbornly getting along with
supporting himself and living through, to the end, sort of limping through life. The relationship----permanent.
The posts suggesting he never would have said "Jack, ....I swear..." unless he felt he was, in some way heard, go a long, long way into
whether he had any hope they would ever meet again. He kept up his life, yes, but he never left Jack, and saw no reason to....move on.
He took Jack with him, and we are left to wonder what hopes he may have had of what could be past the lives we all live.

I feel that Ennis knew he had to live the rest of his life the best he could...because he believed that's what Jack would have wanted. Jack was the one who taught him what it really is to not only be alive, but feel alive. The only times Ennis ever really lived fully was when he was with Jack. In loving memory of Jack, he would live the rest of his life and find redemption. He always kept Jack in his heart, and for him to say "Jack, I swear," shows us that he does believe he will see him again some day.

Tony · « **Reply #110 on:** Mar 20, 2008, 11:32 AM »

Dear Athena--- I agree. Maybe Ennis had no formal religious belief, but he had a sense, a hope, of there being something more. Otherwise,
why bother? There is plenty of room there to suppose Ennis did believe, in his own way, they would meet again.

athena0204 · « **Reply #111 on:** Mar 20, 2008, 06:09 PM »

Quote from: Tony on Mar 20, 2008, 11:32 AM

Dear Athena--- I agree. Maybe Ennis had no formal religious belief, but he had a sense, a hope, of there being something more. Otherwise,
why bother? There is plenty of room there to suppose Ennis did believe, in his own way, they would meet again.

Yeah, many people don't believe in any organized religion, but are very spirtual people. I feel both Ennis and Jack were quite spirtual. So I do believe that Ennis lived the rest of his life looking forward to seeing Jack again but wouldn't speed up the process by killing himself. He would just live the rest of his life in this world in remembrance until the time came to go on to the next part of his journey, where he would see Jack again in some other life, some better place. I also believe that it is that strong feeling of hope he had that he would indeed be reunited with Jack, that enabled Ennis to live the rest of his life the best he could. It's what gave him the courage to go on in this life, despite all the sorrow he'd gone through in his life, despite the mistakes he'd made. Those experiences taught him something, and although he deeply regretted not listening to his heart and hurting Jack so much, those painful experiences of suffering contributed to his spirtual growth.

tpe · « **Reply #112 on:** Mar 24, 2008, 08:32 AM »

I think both realized that there was something spiritual in their desire for each other. I think it was this (and not the physical attraction per se) that made the relationship endure.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #113 on:** Mar 24, 2008, 08:44 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 24, 2008, 08:32 AM

I think both realized that there was something spiritual in their desire for each other. I think it was this (and not the physical attraction per se) that made the relationship endure.

hmm i agree when i look at ennis and jack i barely see the physical for just the soul and how the souls loved sure physicality was probably a factor for them but deffinatly not on the level of the way their souls loved each other.

tpe · « **Reply #114 on:** Mar 25, 2008, 07:51 AM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Mar 24, 2008, 08:44 AM

hmm i agree when i look at ennis and jack i barely see the physical for just the soul and how the souls loved sure physicality was probably a factor for them but deffinatly not on the level of the way their souls loved each other.

Which is why I love one of their last scenes together -- where they are shown sleeping inside a tent before the final confrontation. This is the closest thwey ever got to the dream of domesticity. It hints at how they could have grown old together in their love.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #115 on:** Mar 25, 2008, 10:59 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 25, 2008, 07:51 AM

Which is why I love one of their last scenes together -- where they are shown sleeping inside a tent before the final confrontation. This is the closest thwey ever got to the dream of domesticity. It hints at how they could have grown old together in their love.

yer :\'( :\'( i just wish it had happened like that.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #116 on:** Mar 25, 2008, 11:00 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 25, 2008, 07:51 AM

Which is why I love one of their last scenes together -- where they are shown sleeping inside a tent before the final confrontation. This is the closest thwey ever got to the dream of domesticity. It hints at how they could have grown old together in their love.

I love this short scene too.Yes,it's the most similar to this sweet life together,Jack's dream of a daily life by Ennis side.And it's so with something so normal as sharing the same bed and waking up together in the morning...It shows clearly that their love is not based only in sexual attraction,but,being so great,it's transferring the borders of any label we could put.

tpe · « **Reply #117 on:** Mar 26, 2008, 07:43 AM »

And I think I said it elsewhere: that embrace while sleeping inside the tent is a bookend to the DE. It is a symbol that their love -- for all their fears, frustrations, and imperfections -- was to endure.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #118 on:** Mar 26, 2008, 09:26 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 26, 2008, 07:43 AM

And I think I said it elsewhere: that embrace while sleeping inside the tent is a bookend to the DE. It is a symbol that their love -- for all their fears, frustrations, and imperfections -- was to endure.

hmm thats pretty beautiful

welshwitch · « **Reply #119 on:** Mar 27, 2008, 01:34 AM »

I think after the parting by the lake they might had Jack lived met less frequently, or even not at all; wouldn't have made any difference to what they felt about each other or what they knew they'd had.

It may also be, paradoxically, easier for Ennis to love Jack once he's dead; no problem with being seen together and found out, no conflicting demands of emotion and society's expectations, and for Ennis Jack will never grow old - the shirts hark back to that first summer, and in Ennis's mind perhaps re-create the young Jack he fell in love with.