Topic: How long would have Jack and Ennis relationship endure?

[Matt Nasty]

I think after the parting by the lake they might had Jack lived met less frequently, or even not at all; wouldn't have made any difference to what they felt about each other or what they knew they'd had.

It may also be, paradoxically, easier for Ennis to love Jack once he's dead; no problem with being seen together and found out, no conflicting demands of emotion and society's expectations, and for Ennis Jack will never grow old - the shirts hark back to that first summer, and in Ennis's mind perhaps re-create the young Jack he fell in love with.

beautiful... really,
i just hope in the after life they ould both be free young and happy

[tpe]

hmm thats pretty beautiful

Thanks zankou. 

I think after the parting by the lake they might had Jack lived met less frequently, or even not at all; wouldn't have made any difference to what they felt about each other or what they knew they'd had.

It may also be, paradoxically, easier for Ennis to love Jack once he's dead; no problem with being seen together and found out, no conflicting demands of emotion and society's expectations, and for Ennis Jack will never grow old - the shirts hark back to that first summer, and in Ennis's mind perhaps re-create the young Jack he fell in love with.

I tend to agree with what you say here, WW.  Finality brings Ennis to a final realization, and I it would endure because Ennis understood that it was the only thing he has left.

[myprivatejack]

I think after the parting by the lake they might had Jack lived met less frequently, or even not at all; wouldn't have made any difference to what they felt about each other or what they knew they'd had.

It may also be, paradoxically, easier for Ennis to love Jack once he's dead; no problem with being seen together and found out, no conflicting demands of emotion and society's expectations, and for Ennis Jack will never grow old - the shirts hark back to that first summer, and in Ennis's mind perhaps re-create the young Jack he fell in love with.

And,maybe,this would have been another of the many Ennis contradictions,no?;deny a love in life that is more easily given when there's no living object of this love...It's like saying he had lived from hopes before-even if denied...-and from memories after. :\'(

[athena0204]

beautiful... really,
i just hope in the after life they ould both be free young and happy

Same here! I think in the next life is where they found that happiness and freedom this world denied them. Forever young, free, happy. No restrictions, no fear, just sunshine and being together always. 

[Matt Nasty]

Same here! I think in the next life is where they found that happiness and freedom this world denied them. Forever young, free, happy. No restrictions, no fear, just sunshine and being together always. 

i agree except from the sunshine part maybe they need some hailstones to get them in that tent 

[athena0204]

i agree except from the sunshine part maybe they need some hailstones to get them in that tent 

Oh yeah, I meant metaphorical sunshine. Sure they'd have different kinds of weather, rain, sun, snow, hail, etc. As long as the were always together and happy. What I meant by "sunshine" is no worries, no problems, no restrictions, no fear, etc...endless happiness and love. 

[Matt Nasty]

Oh yeah, I meant metaphorical sunshine. Sure they'd have different kinds of weather, rain, sun, snow, hail, etc. As long as the were always together and happy. What I meant by "sunshine" is no worries, no problems, no restrictions, no fear, etc...endless happiness and love. 

yer i knew i was just joking

[myprivatejack]

IMO,Ennis and Jack had arrived to a point in which their relationship was felt as in that U2 song I can't live with or without you....And specially-and curiously-in Jack's case;and I say curiously because he had been who had put more of himself in this relationship,not only who had proved and showed more his feelings.The only relief I can have is,as we've spoken about some times,that Ennis reaction after their(last) confrontation made him realise what he was loosing and making Jack lose;perhaps if destiny hadn't been so cruel,their ways would have been together at the end,as it usually happens when a strong slap on your face makes you awake from your routinary dream.But we'll never know what would have happenned in November's reunion...

[cowgirlKt!]

I think after the parting by the lake they might had Jack lived met less frequently, or even not at all; wouldn't have made any difference to what they felt about each other or what they knew they'd had.

It may also be, paradoxically, easier for Ennis to love Jack once he's dead; no problem with being seen together and found out, no conflicting demands of emotion and society's expectations, and for Ennis Jack will never grow old - the shirts hark back to that first summer, and in Ennis's mind perhaps re-create the young Jack he fell in love with.

This is is sadly true, it would have been easier for Ennis to love Jack when hes dead because of societies attitute to them there and then. What you said about how Ennis will imagine Jack in his mind is so sad and moving as it would have probably been the case.

IMO,Ennis and Jack had arrived to a point in which their relationship was felt as in that U2 song I can't live with or without you....And specially-and curiously-in Jack's case;and I say curiously because he had been who had put more of himself in this relationship,not only who had proved and showed more his feelings.The only relief I can have is,as we've spoken about some times,that Ennis reaction after their(last) confrontation made him realise what he was loosing and making Jack lose;perhaps if destiny hadn't been so cruel,their ways would have been together at the end,as it usually happens when a strong slap on your face makes you awake from your routinary dream.But we'll never know what would have happenned in November's reunion...

Yes the last reunion and Ennis' reaction gives hope that he finally had realised what he was losing and maybe if Jack hadnt have died, maybe just maybe they could have wkd things out. Got that ranch together...maybe...

[tpe]

IMO,Ennis and Jack had arrived to a point in which their relationship was felt as in that U2 song I can't live with or without you....And specially-and curiously-in Jack's case;and I say curiously because he had been who had put more of himself in this relationship,not only who had proved and showed more his feelings.The only relief I can have is,as we've spoken about some times,that Ennis reaction after their(last) confrontation made him realise what he was loosing and making Jack lose;perhaps if destiny hadn't been so cruel,their ways would have been together at the end,as it usually happens when a strong slap on your face makes you awake from your routinary dream.But we'll never know what would have happenned in November's reunion...

The tragedy was that they could have viewed their love as a liberating force, rather than as a trap that they could and couldn't live without.  But can we blame them?  Perhaps not.  In many ways, they were drawn to each other in spite of themselves...

[myprivatejack]

The tragedy was that they could have viewed their love as a liberating force, rather than as a trap that they could and couldn't live without.  But can we blame them?  Perhaps not.  In many ways, they were drawn to each other in spite of themselves...

Yes,but I'd rather make more specific that ,while Ennis was drawn to Jack in spite of himself,this one kept on being drawn to his lover in spite of Ennis...

[aintfoolin]

IMO,Ennis and Jack had arrived to a point in which their relationship was felt as in that U2 song I can't live with or without you....And specially-and curiously-in Jack's case;and I say curiously because he had been who had put more of himself in this relationship,not only who had proved and showed more his feelings.The only relief I can have is,as we've spoken about some times,that Ennis reaction after their(last) confrontation made him realise what he was loosing and making Jack lose;perhaps if destiny hadn't been so cruel,their ways would have been together at the end,as it usually happens when a strong slap on your face makes you awake from your routinary dream.But we'll never know what would have happenned in November's reunion...

Jack had said what needed saying, and Ennis had heard what needed hearing, but who knows what would have happened had Ennis turned that truck around. Your right ,we'll never find out MPJ. I Don't feel the status quo would have continued though. Not after the confrontation. I feel that Jack had some how *gotten through* to Ennis , but it was time and fate which intervened instead. I'm almost sure that if Jack had lived, he'd show up in Nov. if for no other reason than to hear what Ennis had to say. To see if the effect of his words had on Ennis. I imagine a decision would have been made at that time to send this thing in one direction or the other. Either quit, take the sweet life, or some other compromise. Either way , Ennis has to choose.  He'd have to settle this thing. I can't see Jack starting up again with the way things were before the confrontation. Way too much water under that bridge.

[tpe]

Yes,but I'd rather make more specific that ,while Ennis was drawn to Jack in spite of himself,this one kept on being drawn to his lover in spite of Ennis...

Good point.

I also felt that when the years passed, and Jack saw things going nowhere, I felt that he continued to love Ennis in spite of all this.  And this surely must have created some inner conflict within Jack.  THis is what I would have meant when I imply that he loved Ennis in spite of himself -- that he probably hated seeing his dream of a sweet life delayed year after year, and he perhaps hated himself for not pushing harder, or for not making it happen. 

[babytammy7]

Good point.

I also felt that when the years passed, and Jack saw things going nowhere, I felt that he continued to love Ennis in spite of all this.  And this surely must have created some inner conflict within Jack.  THis is what I would have meant when I imply that he loved Ennis in spite of himself -- that he probably hated seeing his dream of a sweet life delayed year after year, and he perhaps hated himself for not pushing harder, or for not making it happen. 

This is heartbreaking Thomas, but you're right.

[tpe]

This is heartbreaking Thomas, but you're right.

Thanks Tammy.  IMO, it was a miracle that they got on for so very long, given how each of them didn't exactly get the full inner resolution (in the case of Ennis) or satisfaction (in the case of Jack) they desired.

[myprivatejack]

Yes,but I'd rather make more specific that ,while Ennis was drawn to Jack in spite of himself,this one kept on being drawn to his lover in spite of Ennis...

Good point.

I also felt that when the years passed, and Jack saw things going nowhere, I felt that he continued to love Ennis in spite of all this.  And this surely must have created some inner conflict within Jack.  THis is what I would have meant when I imply that he loved Ennis in spite of himself -- that he probably hated seeing his dream of a sweet life delayed year after year, and he perhaps hated himself for not pushing harder, or for not making it happen. 

You're right as always,Thomas.  There was a lot of "in spite of" their story,unluckily...It' s true what you say about how Jack probably hated himself for keep on loving Ennis in that situation and for not being able to put him against the ropes much before the final confrontation.In spite of himself,then,but also in spite of Ennis way of being,who was this wall his deepest feelings and wishes crashed against one time and another.And Ennis,well,Ennis¡; he kept on loving Jack clearly in spite of himself,also of his way of being with fears,denials,renounces,etc.Yes,too many "in spite of" to,as you say,get on for so very long time...

[cowgirlKt!]

Thanks Tammy.  IMO, it was a miracle that they got on for so very long, given how each of them didn't exactly get the full inner resolution (in the case of Ennis) or satisfaction (in the case of Jack) they desired.

yes this is very true... i guess the strength of their love and the special bond they shared helped

[tpe]

You're right as always,Thomas.  There was a lot of "in spite of" their story,unluckily...It' s true what you say about how Jack probably hated himself for keep on loving Ennis in that situation and for not being able to put him against the ropes much before the final confrontation.In spite of himself,then,but also in spite of Ennis way of being,who was this wall his deepest feelings and wishes crashed against one time and another.And Ennis,well,Ennis¡; he kept on loving Jack clearly in spite of himself,also of his way of being with fears,denials,renounces,etc.Yes,too many "in spite of" to,as you say,get on for so very long time...

Thanks MPJ.  So I really don't see it as a question of how long might their relationship endure.  Rather, I would say that it was a miracle that it endured thus far.

[tpe]

yes this is very true... i guess the strength of their love and the special bond they shared helped

In a sense, their love was stronger than either of them.

[cowgirlKt!]

In a sense, their love was stronger than either of them.

yes it was as being described in the "sexual links in SNIT and other BBM sexual scenes" at the end of the topic, their love was like this thing that bound them together, and so if jack hadnt have died even if they hadnt have got that ranch together and carried on trying to fit in with society, they would still not have lost that bond and would probably not had the strength to break free from the love that had bound them. It would always have been with them forever i think

[tpe]

yes it was as being described in the "sexual links in SNIT and other BBM sexual scenes" at the end of the topic, their love was like this thing that bound them together, and so if jack hadnt have died even if they hadnt have got that ranch together and carried on trying to fit in with society, they would still not have lost that bond and would probably not had the strength to break free from the love that had bound them. It would always have been with them forever i think

It is also for this that I believe that even if Jack had tried to settle down with someone else, their relationship would not have gone away.  I think Jack would have only discovered that there was simply no replacement.  Gyllenhaal's comments seemed to have implied a finality to Jack's possible moving on, but I think that it would only could have served as a confimation for Jack that there would be no other.

 

[Matt Nasty]

It is also for this that I believe that even if Jack had tried to settle down with someone else, their relationship would not have gone away.  I think Jack would have only discovered that there was simply no replacement.  Gyllenhaal's comments seemed to have implied a finality to Jack's possible moving on, but I think that it would only could have served as a confimation for Jack that there would be no other.

 

yes i dont think if jack ever ended what he had with ennis he could ahve a seriouse relationship with anyone else

[babytammy7]

It is also for this that I believe that even if Jack had tried to settle down with someone else, their relationship would not have gone away.  I think Jack would have only discovered that there was simply no replacement.  Gyllenhaal's comments seemed to have implied a finality to Jack's possible moving on, but I think that it would only could have served as a confimation for Jack that there would be no other.
 

Agree Thomas, and also I think he had showed in November.

[Matt Nasty]

Agree Thomas, and also I think he had showed in November.

i dont have a doubt in my mind about this with every fibre of my being i beleive jack would hav met with ennis in november.

[myprivatejack]

Yes,I also believe that Jack would go to November's appointment,even if he had arrived to a extreme situation in his perception about their future together.He had looked for a solution for it during the last times,and this includes also having another relationship(Randall),as a desperate way to forget Ennis,as I see.It's clear that there was a struggle between what he felt and what he believed,what he dreamed about and what he saw as a reality...And I guess the heart won before the mind.
We see that Ennis also wanted to see him again,with this last card that never arrived to its destiny;but,what would have been his reaction then?...Would have he realised his inner and whole need for Jack in another way than he had had him for almost 20 years?.Or from November onwards everything had been a continuation?.The sadness before the unavoidable...

[tpe]

I have been wonderfing if Jack would ahve showed up in November just to announce that he was already with someone else.  He knew that Ennis would have been dangerouslyu angry by then, but perhaps this was part of Jack's plan to force Ennis's hand. 

Then again, I wonder whether Jack would have showed without telling Ennis that he had moved in with another man. 

The possibilities are tantalizing...

[atalley]

Wonderful posts!  I believe that they would have continued the relationship because their love could never die.  We see the brokenness in Ennis when he collapses in Jacks arms when Jack even mentions the thought of "quitting you".  Another glimpse is at the truck stop when he's barely eating and breaking in front of Cassie.  He knows that only Jack can make him complete.  I also agree, however, that it was much easier for Ennis to love Jack once he was dead.  I tend to think that Jack would not have settled for Randall or anyone else.  Ennis would remain alone, possibly as pennance and to honor Jack's love.  IMO

[tpe]

Wonderful posts!  I believe that they would have continued the relationship because their love could never die.  We see the brokenness in Ennis when he collapses in Jacks arms when Jack even mentions the thought of "quitting you".  Another glimpse is at the truck stop when he's barely eating and breaking in front of Cassie.   He knows that only Jack can make him complete.  I also agree, however, that it was much easier for Ennis to love Jack once he was dead.  I tend to think that Jack would not have settled for Randall or anyone else.  Ennis would remain alone, possibly as pennance and to honor Jack's love.  IMO

Wonderful insight here, atalley!  You bring up 2 points that I highlight.

Although it is not absolutely clear how much time had elapsed between the final confrontation and the last scene with Cassie, I also thought that at the beginning of the latter scene, Ennis was still musing about Jack and his last dramatic meeting with him.   I also somehow felt that not that much time had passed between the two scenes.  In fact, I thought that at that point, Ennis had resolved to break with Cassie, because he now understood that it was Jack he wanted to share a life with.

And I find your second comment intriguing.  Is this not a common human trait.  A lot of us do tend to idealize our beloved departed, as if we make up for all the not so comfortable realities we had to deal with when they were alive.  Does this make sense?

[aintfoolin]

I have been wonderfing if Jack would ahve showed up in November just to announce that he was already with someone else.  He knew that Ennis would have been dangerouslyu angry by then, but perhaps this was part of Jack's plan to force Ennis's hand. 

Then again, I wonder whether Jack would have showed without telling Ennis that he had moved in with another man. 

The possibilities are tantalizing...

 I think Jack would have taken the logical route ( and less dangerous one) and showed up without telling Ennis he had moved in with Randall..if that's what Jack chose to do. I have my doubts still, but I don't think Ennis planned on this confrontation getting as much out of hand as it did. Never saw Jack on the defensive this way. Jack had always let it be Ennis's way. This time, he does'nt back off. Does not allow Ennis to be complacent once again. Ennis had to know that this was not turning out to be just another regualar *fishing trip*Jack has summed up  his pov of their their whole love affair in more than a few words . Angry, jealousy, frustration along with talk of actually quitting  the relationship  from Jack marked the meeting. I feel Jack gave Ennis alot to think about when he got home. Jack's tone, and the way he put it all into perspective showed Ennis another side of him.

I do believe Jack would've showed just because of the friendship as well as his love and concern for Ennis's future with him or ...maybe without him. Like you said , Jack could've "forced Ennis's hand" and mentioned Randall in the picture using it as leverage, , but why would he..... before he learned what Ennis had to say?  No one knows for sure the effect Jack's words had on Ennis. Ennis was placed in the position, either walk away, or take a chance on Jack's case. Either way this status quo  business was kaput imo.

Some time passed before Ennis got the postcard about Jack's death. , but he was was one who sent it. He was the one who took the initiative  this time to find Jack, and invite him to Pine Creek. I feel Ennis had something to say to Jack that  would sway this thing one way or the other. Question remains.... what was it? We'll never know.

[tpe]

I think Jack would have taken the logical route ( and less dangerous one) and showed up without telling Ennis he had moved in with Randall..if that's what Jack chose to do. I have my doubts still, but I don't think Ennis planned on this confrontation getting as much out of hand as it did. Never saw Jack on the defensive this way. Jack had always let it be Ennis's way. This time, he does'nt back off. Does not allow Ennis to be complacent once again. Ennis had to know that this was not turning out to be just another regualar *fishing trip*Jack has summed up  his pov of their their whole love affair in more than a few words . Angry, jealousy, frustration along with talk of actually quitting  the relationship  from Jack marked the meeting. I feel Jack gave Ennis alot to think about when he got home. Jack's tone, and the way he put it all into perspective showed Ennis another side of him.

I do believe Jack would've showed just because of the friendship as well as his love and concern for Ennis's future with him or ...maybe without him. Like you said , Jack could've "forced Ennis's hand" and mentioned Randall in the picture using it as leverage, , but why would he..... before he learned what Ennis had to say?  No one knows for sure the effect Jack's words had on Ennis. Ennis was placed in the position, either walk away, or take a chance on Jack's case. Either way this status quo  business was kaput imo.

Some time passed before Ennis got the postcard about Jack's death. , but he was was one who sent it. He was the one who took the initiative  this time to find Jack, and invite him to Pine Creek. I feel Ennis had something to say to Jack that  would sway this thing one way or the other. Question remains.... what was it? We'll never know.

Interesting, aintfoolin.  And would you think that Jack would keep it that way?  If he and Randall had a ranch in Texas, then perhaps he could have kept the secret from Ennis indefinitely.  But at LF, I wonder...  Still, Ennis rarely went out of Riverton, except perhaps during the round-up or for work.  I doubt that he would have ended up in LF on his own, in any case.  So perhaps Jack could have kept everything secret for some time...

Still, people are bound to talk -- with such an arrangement with Jack and Randall.  Perhaps Ennis would get wind of it inevitably...