Topic: How long would have Jack and Ennis relationship endure?

[babytammy7]

Interesting, aintfoolin.  And would you think that Jack would keep it that way?  If he and Randall had a ranch in Texas, then perhaps he could have kept the secret from Ennis indefinitely.  But at LF, I wonder...  Still, Ennis rarely went out of Riverton, except perhaps during the round-up or for work.  I doubt that he would have ended up in LF on his own, in any case.  So perhaps Jack could have kept everything secret for some time...

Still, people are bound to talk -- with such an arrangement with Jack and Randall.  Perhaps Ennis would get wind of it inevitably...

And what about Randall? I mean, Jack and him spent several years together, like the screenplay says, so I think that maybe Jack told Randall about Ennis at some point......maybe when he was angry with Ennis or so sad... I think Randall and he became friends, so maybe Jack shared with him those stories about fishing trips...So if Randall and Jack were going to live together, I think that if Jack had told Randall that he was gonna be out for some days in a trip, Randall had known for sure....and I don't think he had tolerated that.

[tpe]

And what about Randall? I mean, Jack and him spent several years together, like the screenplay says, so I think that maybe Jack told Randall about Ennis at some point......maybe when he was angry with Ennis or so sad... I think Randall and he became friends, so maybe Jack shared with him those stories about fishing trips...So if Randall and Jack were going to live together, I think that if Jack had told Randall that he was gonna be out for some days in a trip, Randall had known for sure....and I don't think he had tolerated that.

Interesting that you say this, Tammy, as I feel thios way sometimes -- that Randall must have known about Jack's longtime relationship with Ennis.

But we could also easily say that he kept these two relationships apart and distinctly compartmentalized from each other -- with Ennis and Randall not knowing about each other.  With Randall, Jack may have dropped hints similar to Jack's oblique confession about the Texas neighbor's wife. 

Still, I know where you are coming from.  Jack's relationship with Ennis was the more enduring of the two, and it was clearly Jack's preferred one.  Ao we may think that it would have been difficult for Jack to have kept it from Randall, especially in moments of extremem disappointment.

Did Jack tell Randall about Ennis after the last confrontation, and did this perhasp lead to Randall agreeing to live with Jack?  We shall never really know for sure. 

Whatever the case, it was Jack's relationship with Ennis that proved eventually to be the more enduring of the two...

[aintfoolin]

Interesting, aintfoolin.  And would you think that Jack would keep it that way?  If he and Randall had a ranch in Texas, then perhaps he could have kept the secret from Ennis indefinitely.  But at LF, I wonder...  Still, Ennis rarely went out of Riverton, except perhaps during the round-up or for work.  I doubt that he would have ended up in LF on his own, in any case.  So perhaps Jack could have kept everything secret for some time...

Still, people are bound to talk -- with such an arrangement with Jack and Randall.  Perhaps Ennis would get wind of it inevitably...

 Sorry, so long getting back but it's a great question. How long could Jack keep his and Randall's relationship secret IF they got together to build a ranch in Texas or LF.? I guess it would depend on how bad Ennis wanted to see Jack again and what he has to say at Pine Creek.

If in Texas, Ennis could call Jack's former residence, Lureen's house, like he did when he found the postcard. I bet she'd give Ennis an earful, including all the details.

If at LF, with Randall's animal husbandry degree,, and Jack's skill as a salesman, They form a good team,they would probably have quite a nice set-up. A working ranch that would become prosperous providing  OMT either dies or lets them take it over. Again there's Lureen, the common denominator in both cases. The one who has has ties to both Jack and Randall, and I won't even start with what LaShawn would have to say about it. I just feel that if Ennis wanted to find Jack, he would, especially if he had'nt died, or did'nt show up at Pine Creek.  They were good friends as well as lovers.

For Ennis to show up one day  out of the blue?, no warning? to tell Jack he'd had a change of heart? and find Jack living with Randall?...well that spells trouble in my book  that Jack does'nt want nor need. .  Like the guy who ends up with 2 dates on the same night, due to some screw up and niether will leave. It could get very ugly. Now Ennis is no deep thinker but no doubt, he'd put 2and2 together from Jack's confession at the last meeting about the (ranch forman's wife)? hmmm? ( assuming Jack lied), now I'm reaching, but I think Jack would be smart enough to let one of them go before he made his decision. Don't think he'd string Ennis along, but he'd have his reasons for quitting. Just don't think he'd leave Ennis hanging like this.

 If Jack has discussed Ennis with Randall, then Randall knows what he's really dealing with here. If knowing all this, and still move to LF or ranch up with Jack anywhere, Randall would have to prove himself  a powerful alternative to Ennis, the third person in their bed, at least for a while.  Did Randall and Jack get this close? Maybe, but only after he's convinced Jack, or Jack convinces himself that  Ennis is old news. If  Randall  loved Jack he would have to  have proved that in some way. I don't think Jack was up for anymore guessing games post-Ennis.  I'm just sayin...

[tpe]

Sorry, so long getting back but it's a great question. How long could Jack keep his and Randall's relationship secret IF they got together to build a ranch in Texas or LF.? I guess it would depend on how bad Ennis wanted to see Jack again and what he has to say at Pine Creek.

If in Texas, Ennis could call Jack's former residence, Lureen's house, like he did when he found the postcard. I bet she'd give Ennis an earful, including all the details.

If at LF, with Randall's animal husbandry degree,, and Jack's skill as a salesman, They form a good team,they would probably have quite a nice set-up. A working ranch that would become prosperous providing  OMT either dies or lets them take it over. Again there's Lureen, the common denominator in both cases. The one who has has ties to both Jack and Randall, and I won't even start with what LaShawn would have to say about it. I just feel that if Ennis wanted to find Jack, he would, especially if he had'nt died, or did'nt show up at Pine Creek.  They were good friends as well as lovers.

For Ennis to show up one day  out of the blue?, no warning? to tell Jack he'd had a change of heart? and find Jack living with Randall?...well that spells trouble in my book  that Jack does'nt want nor need. .  Like the guy who ends up with 2 dates on the same night, due to some screw up and niether will leave. It could get very ugly. Now Ennis is no deep thinker but no doubt, he'd put 2and2 together from Jack's confession at the last meeting about the (ranch forman's wife)? hmmm? ( assuming Jack lied), now I'm reaching, but I think Jack would be smart enough to let one of them go before he made his decision. Don't think he'd string Ennis along, but he'd have his reasons for quitting. Just don't think he'd leave Ennis hanging like this.

 If Jack has discussed Ennis with Randall, then Randall knows what he's really dealing with here. If knowing all this, and still move to LF or ranch up with Jack anywhere, Randall would have to prove himself  a powerful alternative to Ennis, the third person in their bed, at least for a while.  Did Randall and Jack get this close? Maybe, but only after he's convinced Jack, or Jack convinces himself that  Ennis is old news. If  Randall  loved Jack he would have to  have proved that in some way. I don't think Jack was up for anymore guessing games post-Ennis.  I'm just sayin...

Thanks for the response, AF.  I think if Jack had failed to shop up after the last confrontation, Ennis would probably had sought Jack out -- either by letter, by phone, or in person.

But what if Jack continued to see Ennis after the final confrontation -- even after he had moved in with Randall?  Would Ennis have suspected?  Would jack have been able to have kept things with Randall a secret?  Would this have been even possible?  Would Randalll have allowed it if he had gone over to LF to live with Jack? 

[aintfoolin]

Thanks for the response, AF.  I think if Jack had failed to shop up after the last confrontation, Ennis would probably had sought Jack out -- either by letter, by phone, or in person.

But what if Jack continued to see Ennis after the final confrontation -- even after he had moved in with Randall?  Would Ennis have suspected?  Would jack have been able to have kept things with Randall a secret?  Would this have been even possible?  Would Randalll have allowed it if he had gone over to LF to live with Jack? 

 In this scenario, I suppose Jack would be able to keep Randall a secret as long as Ennis never traveled beyond the coffe pot, looking for the handle,...for a little while.. but I feel eventually, he'd get suspicious of the amount of time Jack was spending at LF. I just don't see Jack paying this dangerous game, toying with the emotions of both men. Don't think Randall would allow it either. He would have givin up alot to be with Jack . It would be a stretch for Randall  to not be livid at Jack when the whole point of him being at LF is because Ennis would'nt commit to the sweet life. Think he'd have a *you had your chance pal, attitude toward Ennis, *now he's mine*. Really, before long Jack would let something slip and Ennis's  suspicions would peak, and he was a possesive, jealous man when it came to Jack. Jack would be asking for big trouble trying to pull this off in this close proximity to Ennis.  MO.

[tpe]

In this scenario, I suppose Jack would be able to keep Randall a secret as long as Ennis never traveled beyond the coffe pot, looking for the handle,...for a little while.. but I feel eventually, he'd get suspicious of the amount of time Jack was spending at LF. I just don't see Jack paying this dangerous game, toying with the emotions of both men. Don't think Randall would allow it either. He would have givin up alot to be with Jack . It would be a stretch for Randall  to not be livid at Jack when the whole point of him being at LF is because Ennis would'nt commit to the sweet life. Think he'd have a *you had your chance pal, attitude toward Ennis, *now he's mine*. Really, before long Jack would let something slip and Ennis's  suspicions would peak, and he was a possesive, jealous man when it came to Jack. Jack would be asking for big trouble trying to pull this off in this close proximity to Ennis.  MO.

Good points.  I think it would be difficult for Jack to pull off for any reasonable amount of time.  And I suspect that had Ennis found out, he would have considered it an act of betrayal -- for jack to have kept him in the dark.

But you are right to bring up Randall's possible response -- that he probably wouldn't allow such a meeting.  I would think that part of the condition of his moving back to Jack to LF would be some degree of exclusiveness in the relationship.  Whether or not Randall knew about Ennis is beside the point, I guess.

[rimasworld]

When Ennis went to see Jack's parents after he learned of his death, Jack's dad said that last spring Jack had told them of another feller going to move there with him and help run the ranch. This was probably soon after the last confrontation where Jack was so exasperated and hurt and I think just plain weary of Ennis at that point. But like the dad said, nothing ever came of it , making me think he was still holding on to his hope that he and Ennis could still be together he loved him so much. I'm also wondering what would have happened had their situations been reversed and Jack had been the one divorced and Ennis had stayed married. Would Jack had been as patient or being single would he have gone out and played the field more? We know Ennis really didn't much, he seemed to want only Jack but still on a limited basis. Jack was more intense about what and who he wanted all the time. I'm just wondering how long he could have stood the heartache before he looked elsewhere for something permenant? Would he have loved Ennis forever?, I think so, even if he chose to move on with someone else. Would Ennis have regretted it? You bet.. 

[Matt Nasty]

thanks for the interesting input rimasworld

[tpe]

When Ennis went to see Jack's parents after he learned of his death, Jack's dad said that last spring Jack had told them of another feller going to move there with him and help run the ranch. This was probably soon after the last confrontation where Jack was so exasperated and hurt and I think just plain weary of Ennis at that point. But like the dad said, nothing ever came of it , making me think he was still holding on to his hope that he and Ennis could still be together he loved him so much. I'm also wondering what would have happened had their situations been reversed and Jack had been the one divorced and Ennis had stayed married. Would Jack had been as patient or being single would he have gone out and played the field more? We know Ennis really didn't much, he seemed to want only Jack but still on a limited basis. Jack was more intense about what and who he wanted all the time. I'm just wondering how long he could have stood the heartache before he looked elsewhere for something permenant? Would he have loved Ennis forever?, I think so, even if he chose to move on with someone else. Would Ennis have regretted it? You bet.. 

Well, it was clear that Jack placed Ennis above his (Jack's) own family, since he did offer to divorce Lureen and move in with Ennis as early as the Reunion.  It seemed that Jack was willing to drop all ties to his family if only Ennis said yes.

And yes, for all intents and purposes, Ennis was central to Jack, even if he chose to move one. 

[myprivatejack]

We really can't know for sure how long their relationship would have endured-living together I mean...-.But I'd like to say that the most I watch the film or think or write about it,the most I realise that both of them were living a fantasy based in a wish.I'm not saying they didn't love each other,no;but never in their whole lives did they live the same as in BBM,when they met each other.Never, neither even when they found each other after four years of separation;nor when they spent these days together after their reunion,nor every time they travelled to the mountain.Why am I saying that?.
Because they remained somehow on the mountain and in the happy times of 1963,and they pretended also somehow that every time they met it'd be like then.And it never could be the same,at least while both of them had family duties and/or the deep fear to share their life in Ennis case...Each one of their reunions were indeed like a poor copy of that times; I say "poor" because poor-for short-were the days they spent together,and poor-for several reasons-were their hopes to make them more frequent little by little.So,there was a wish to make these little holidays into a real life together-clearer in Jack's case,hidden and denied in Ennis-;but as time was passing and these hopes were fadding,they only had BBM and its memories,and I think they hanged on these memories too much.I don't know if this makes sense; excuse me if I can't explain myself better...

[Matt Nasty]

We really can't know for sure how long their relationship would have endured-living together I mean...-.But I'd like to say that the most I watch the film or think or write about it,the most I realise that both of them were living a fantasy based in a wish.I'm not saying they didn't love each other,no;but never in their whole lives did they live the same as in BBM,when they met each other.Never, neither even when they found each other after four years of separation;nor when they spent these days together after their reunion,nor every time they travelled to the mountain.Why am I saying that?.
Because they remained somehow on the mountain and in the happy times of 1963,and they pretended also somehow that every time they met it'd be like then.And it never could be the same,at least while both of them had family duties and/or the deep fear to share their life in Ennis case...Each one of their reunions were indeed like a poor copy of that times; I say "poor" because poor-for short-were the days they spent together,and poor-for several reasons-were their hopes to make them more frequent little by little.So,there was a wish to make these little holidays into a real life together-clearer in Jack's case,hidden and denied in Ennis-;but as time was passing and these hopes were fadding,they only had BBM and its memories,and I think they hanged on these memories too much.I don't know if this makes sense; excuse me if I can't explain myself better...

it makes perfect sense ali you make so very valid points 

[tpe]

We really can't know for sure how long their relationship would have endured-living together I mean...-.But I'd like to say that the most I watch the film or think or write about it,the most I realise that both of them were living a fantasy based in a wish.I'm not saying they didn't love each other,no;but never in their whole lives did they live the same as in BBM,when they met each other.Never, neither even when they found each other after four years of separation;nor when they spent these days together after their reunion,nor every time they travelled to the mountain.Why am I saying that?.
Because they remained somehow on the mountain and in the happy times of 1963,and they pretended also somehow that every time they met it'd be like then.And it never could be the same,at least while both of them had family duties and/or the deep fear to share their life in Ennis case...Each one of their reunions were indeed like a poor copy of that times; I say "poor" because poor-for short-were the days they spent together,and poor-for several reasons-were their hopes to make them more frequent little by little.So,there was a wish to make these little holidays into a real life together-clearer in Jack's case,hidden and denied in Ennis-;but as time was passing and these hopes were fadding,they only had BBM and its memories,and I think they hanged on these memories too much.I don't know if this makes sense; excuse me if I can't explain myself better...

But it was also significant to note that they never rwally went back to Brokeback Mountain -- as if they understood that they could never return, and not just in a physical sense.  All this reminds me of Houseman's verses:

Into my heart an air that kills
From yon far country blows:
What are those blue remembered hills,
What spires, what farms are those?
 
That is the land of lost content,
I see it shining plain,
The happy highways where I went
And cannot come again.

[myprivatejack]

But it was also significant to note that they never rwally went back to Brokeback Mountain -- as if they understood that they could never return, and not just in a physical sense.  All this reminds me of Houseman's verses:

Into my heart an air that kills
From yon far country blows:
What are those blue remembered hills,
What spires, what farms are those?
 
That is the land of lost content,
I see it shining plain,
The happy highways where I went
And cannot come again.

Wonderful verses,Thomas¡.Yes,they never came back to BBM,maybe for applying this of "Never come back to the place you've been happy in"...All what they were looking for along the years was something more than a beautiful landscape where to be easy together; was a copy of this Brokeback Mountain,whose status and similarities they'll never get again.BBM was a symbol,beyond a nice place,and as a symbol meant also that they never could come back to it in the same way,both physically and emotionally.But I guess they lived "anchored" in that time somehow,as if every meeting was going to be as in 1963,and that they didn't realise-or denied to realise...-that these happy times were gone.

[tpe]

Wonderful verses,Thomas¡.Yes,they never came back to BBM,maybe for applying this of "Never come back to the place you've been happy in"...All what they were looking for along the years was something more than a beautiful landscape where to be easy together; was a copy of this Brokeback Mountain,whose status and similarities they'll never get again.BBM was a symbol,beyond a nice place,and as a symbol meant also that they never could come back to it in the same way,both physically and emotionally.But I guess they lived "anchored" in that time somehow,as if every meeting was going to be as in 1963,and that they didn't realise-or denied to realise...-that these happy times were gone.

Symbolically, I do think it means that once they came back to the "world", true happiness would escape them.  And they couldn't come back to the place of happiness, once the world has touched both of them.  It is like a loss of innocence -- an expulsion from Eden?

[Matt Nasty]

Symbolically, I do think it means that once they came back to the "world", true happiness would escape them.  And they couldn't come back to the place of happiness, once the world has touched both of them.  It is like a loss of innocence -- an expulsion from Eden?

amazing way to put it thomas

[tpe]

Thanmks Matt.  MPJ certainly deserves as much as the credit on this one. 

[myprivatejack]

Thanmks Matt.  MPJ certainly deserves as much as the credit on this one. 

Thank you so much,Thomas;I don't think I deserve nothing special.I've limited to say what I feel somehow,and I usually say this is not question of explaining well or badly... In this case,I think both of us are saying the same thing;BBM was a symbol of a full and real happiness that would be never get in the same extent because,as you say,"world had touched them".And as I said,this world meant their family and work duties,to clash against the wall of the real society that never accept them.

[tpe]

Thank you so much,Thomas;I don't think I deserve nothing special.I've limited to say what I feel somehow,and I usually say this is not question of explaining well or badly... In this case,I think both of us are saying the same thing;BBM was a symbol of a full and real happiness that would be never get in the same extent because,as you say,"world had touched them".And as I said,this world meant their family and work duties,to clash against the wall of the real society that never accept them.

Which is why -- given what they were up against -- we should note how long the relationship endured in spite of everything else.  I think many of us will say that it endured even after Jack's death.

[babytammy7]

Which is why -- given what they were up against -- we should note how long the relationship endured in spite of everything else.  I think many of us will say that it endured even after Jack's death.

Of course it endured after Jack's death. And thinking about what you say, I realize that their relationship endured 20 years having ALL against them, time, fear, doubts, anger, society, etc. So I'm thinking now that if they had had some easier circumstances in their lives, their relationship had endured all their lives till the very end (had not Jack died...).

[myprivatejack]

Which is why -- given what they were up against -- we should note how long the relationship endured in spite of everything else.  I think many of us will say that it endured even after Jack's death.

Yes,I'm sure of this too.It endured even after Jack's death and it's such a pity to realise that,to some extent,precisely then is when it could get its greatest strenght; with an Ennis surely willing to give a further step and having shown the innest part of his soul and feelings in the confrontation scene... :\'(

[Matt Nasty]

Yes,I'm sure of this too.It endured even after Jack's death and it's such a pity to realise that,to some extent,precisely then is when it could get its greatest strenght; with an Ennis surely willing to give a further step and having shown the innest part of his soul and feelings in the confrontation scene... :\'(

:\'(

[aintfoolin]

Yes,I'm sure of this too.It endured even after Jack's death and it's such a pity to realise that,to some extent,precisely then is when it could get its greatest strenght; with an Ennis surely willing to give a further step and having shown the innest part of his soul and feelings in the confrontation scene... :\'(

So beautifly said. Thank you. Ennis realizing his greatest strenghth is found in love. Particularly in Jack's love. Through Jack's love He finds he can and has  been loved.

[tpe]

Yes,I'm sure of this too.It endured even after Jack's death and it's such a pity to realise that,to some extent,precisely then is when it could get its greatest strenght; with an Ennis surely willing to give a further step and having shown the innest part of his soul and feelings in the confrontation scene... :\'(

Alas, it is usually the case -- that we become resolute only when something is past resolution.  This is all too common in the human condition.  The miracle is that things endure in spite of ourselves.

[myprivatejack]

Alas, it is usually the case -- that we become resolute only when something is past resolution.  This is all too common in the human condition.  The miracle is that things endure in spite of ourselves.

And isn't true that their relationship seems sometimes to endure precisely in spite of themselves?.Love was deep,but also their doubts,denials,renunciations,frustrations,and so on...The problem is what you and me are saying,as in the proverb:You never know how much you love something(or somebody) until you loose it.

[tpe]

And isn't true that their relationship seems sometimes to endure precisely in spite of themselves?.Love was deep,but also their doubts,denials,renunciations,frustrations,and so on...The problem is what you and me are saying,as in the proverb:You never know how much you love something(or somebody) until you loose it.

IN a VERY real sense, their love was stronger than either of them.  Their love represented something stronger.  I think it captured the meaning of "love is a force of nature" very well.  Yes, in spite of their individual doubts and failings, they couldn't prevail against that love.

[myprivatejack]

IN a VERY real sense, their love was stronger than either of them.  Their love represented something stronger.  I think it captured the meaning of "love is a force of nature" very well.  Yes, in spite of their individual doubts and failings, they couldn't prevail against that love.

Yes,for this reason I said that their relationship seemed sometimes to ensure in spite of themselves.And in spite of all these fears and frustrations that surrounded their love.Because this love was greater than all the negative that there could be,although they-specially Ennis-could deny it or not accept it.

[tpe]

Yes,for this reason I said that their relationship seemed sometimes to ensure in spite of themselves.And in spite of all these fears and frustrations that surrounded their love.Because this love was greater than all the negative that there could be,although they-specially Ennis-could deny it or not accept it.

Exactly.  It was as if it is something outside of either of them individually.  I know it sounds geeky, but a chemical or ionic bond comes to mind: something stronger than the individual constituents, and something that draws those normally opposing/repelling constituents to each other...

[myprivatejack]

Exactly.  It was as if it is something outside of either of them individually.  I know it sounds geeky, but a chemical or ionic bond comes to mind: something stronger than the individual constituents, and something that draws those normally opposing/repelling constituents to each other...

Yes,and the opposing/repelling constituents are usually complementaries,if not are attracted to each other...

[tpe]

In a philosophical sense, complimentaries are but different sides/factes of the same thing. 

[atalley]

Yes, they definitely complimented one another.  The bond was so strong that even death could not break it.