Topic: How long would have Jack and Ennis relationship endure?

[vedrana]

I did mention in a lost post here that some members would disagree with our assessment of John Twist.  Some memebers have incdeed come to his defense, saying that all he wanted was some help to run the ranch.  Although I am not sympathetic to John Twist, I tend to consider this a possibility. 
IN any case, I think that in spite of John Twist, Ennis and Jack could have made things work.  Ennis provided the necessary discretion whereas Jack provided the push to live a little.  They complemented each other quite nicely, and I think they would have worked well together up in LF.

But it could haver been "relatively" safe, do you think?   Perhaps it would have been worse had they lived by themselves in the midst of or near a disapproving/hostile town.  As I mentioned, the Twsit ranch provided some cover, if they somehow managed to keep the elder Twist under control...

I think that you know my opinion about John Twist. And it is not based only on one thing -  it is based on all the possible data we have about him in the SS and the movie. But even if we want to stick only to the movie, we have enough material to get the picture how awful the old man was to Jack. I dislike him for being so bad to Jack, never showing him a real love, but only discontent with him as a person. And when it comes to Jack, I am even more sensitive to this kind of treatment!

I am not sure if you think that Ennis&Jack could keep the nature of their relationship private, but IMO the old man already had a pretty good idea about that. When he spat in the cup with disgust ... I think that he was just expressing his attitude towards Ennis and his "friendship" with Jack.

IMO, the only way that John Twist would've accepted Ennis on the farm was if his own selfishness surpasses his disapproval of Jack and his relationship with Ennis. I think that their relationship would be very very complicated, with one little buffer zone - mrs Twist!

I am not sure how this would work, but if it would - than I can accept that LF could've been a better "cover" for them than some unknown place.

OMG, if only they come to this choice - LF or elsewhere.... :\'(

[tpe]

I think that you know my opinion about John Twist. And it is not based only on one thing -  it is based on all the possible data we have about him in the SS and the movie. But even if we want to stick only to the movie, we have enough material to get the picture how awful the old man was to Jack. I dislike him for being so bad to Jack, never showing him a real love, but only discontent with him as a person. And when it comes to Jack, I am even more sensitive to this kind of treatment!

I am not sure if you think that Ennis&Jack could keep the nature of their relationship private, but IMO the old man already had a pretty good idea about that. When he spat in the cup with disgust ... I think that he was just expressing his attitude towards Ennis and his "friendship" with Jack.

IMO, the only way that John Twist would've accepted Ennis on the farm was if his own selfishness surpasses his disapproval of Jack and his relationship with Ennis. I think that their relationship would be very very complicated, with one little buffer zone - mrs Twist!

I am not sure how this would work, but if it would - than I can accept that LF could've been a better "cover" for them than some unknown place.

OMG, if only they come to this choice - LF or elsewhere.... :\'(

I think Aguirre comes to mind here.  He clearly despised them for what they were and waht they did.  But he lived with it till they were called back down from BBM because it was the most pragmatic thing to do.  You can extrapolate a similar behaviour to others and to John Twist in particular.

[myprivatejack]

I think Aguirre comes to mind here.  He clearly despised them for what they were and waht they did.  But he lived with it till they were called back down from BBM because it was the most pragmatic thing to do.  You can extrapolate a similar behaviour to others and to John Twist in particular.

Yes,I tend to agree with this,even if in a former post I said that living in LF would have been an ambivalent situation for both of them;on one hand,it would be a convenient cover,much more than living on their own ranch,but,on the other hand,it could have been difficult and,even,dangerous,being OMT so disdainful against his son and knowing the nature of his relationship with Ennis.
I keep on seeing this in both ways,but I guess that OMT had shut up and "let them do" providing they had been a good help for him.As you say,the same than Aguirre,who learned to hide his disgust because his own interest was bigger,he only would add another reason to depict his son without any greater consequences...

[vedrana]

I think Aguirre comes to mind here.  He clearly despised them for what they were and waht they did.  But he lived with it till they were called back down from BBM because it was the most pragmatic thing to do.  You can extrapolate a similar behaviour to others and to John Twist in particular.

Well, yes! That's what I wanted to say - if E&J could be useful to John Twist, he'd tolerate them. But for Aguirre, it was a "one shot thing" and it had a very near end - few months. Even so, Aguirre cut it and let them go as early as possible, right?

For John Twist it would be a lifetime situation, and during so long time, people get some ideas, get some turbulence in their heads... That's why I ask myself - would it last? At which point would John Twist snap?  (and IMO it is pretty sure that he would!) And how would that effect Ennis?

[tpe]

Yes,I tend to agree with this,even if in a former post I said that living in LF would have been an ambivalent situation for both of them;on one hand,it would be a convenient cover,much more than living on their own ranch,but,on the other hand,it could have been difficult and,even,dangerous,being OMT so disdainful against his son and knowing the nature of his relationship with Ennis.
I keep on seeing this in both ways,but I guess that OMT had shut up and "let them do" providing they had been a good help for him.As you say,the same than Aguirre,who learned to hide his disgust because his own interest was bigger,he only would add another reason to depict his son without any greater consequences...

Well, yes! That's what I wanted to say - if E&J could be useful to John Twist, he'd tolerate them. But for Aguirre, it was a "one shot thing" and it had a very near end - few months. Even so, Aguirre cut it and let them go as early as possible, right?

For John Twist it would be a lifetime situation, and during so long time, people get some ideas, get some turbulence in their heads... That's why I ask myself - would it last? At which point would John Twist snap?  (and IMO it is pretty sure that he would!) And how would that effect Ennis?

My feelings about LF being a safe and convenient cover also assumes that unlike a hostle society at large, it would be difficult for me to see even John Twist killing Ennis or Jack as they worked in the ranch -- no matter how distasteful it was to him.  And of course, we have the mitigating influence of Mrs. Twist.

Aguirre let them off as early as possible -- but that was about it.  He didn't confront them (he only confronted Jack later when Jack sort of "provoked" him) and the reason why he let them go was perhaps more about their not guarding the sheep at night in the manner that he expected them to do.
But I am sure that part of the reason was hjis distaste for what he had seen.  Frankly, I suspect that this was not the only time he had seen these happen with the people he hired...

[vedrana]

My feelings about LF being a safe and convenient cover also assumes that unlike a hostle society at large, it would be difficult for me to see even John Twist killing Ennis or Jack as they worked in the ranch -- no matter how distasteful it was to him.  And of course, we have the mitigating influence of Mrs. Twist.

Aguirre let them off as early as possible -- but that was about it.  He didn't confront them (he only confronted Jack later when Jack sort of "provoked" him) and the reason why he let them go was perhaps more about their not guarding the sheep at night in the manner that he expected them to do.
But I am sure that part of the reason was hjis distaste for what he had seen.  Frankly, I suspect that this was not the only time he had seen these happen with the people he hired...

   You want to say that there's some other "Brokeback mountains" that we don't know about?  This is a very peculiar suggestion, I have to say! 

Also, I never though that John T. would kill Ennis or Jack- God forbid. It is not about killing at all! It is about every day life which is sometimes extremely difficult to bear, even in much more "normal" circumstances.

[tpe]

  You want to say that there's some other "Brokeback mountains" that we don't know about?  This is a very peculiar suggestion, I have to say! 

Also, I never though that John T. would kill Ennis or Jack- God forbid. It is not about killing at all! It is about every day life which is sometimes extremely difficult to bear, even in much more "normal" circumstances.

I mean to say that when 2 men are hired to be all alone up in the mountains with sheep and no women, things happen.  I read an old NY Times interview when BBM came out -- about such a "shepherd" who said that such things happen a lot.  And I am talking here about SEX and not love.  It was convenient.

But surely other people wouldn't have hesistated to try to kill Ennis and Jack, if they lived alone elsewehere...

[vedrana]

I mean to say that when 2 men are hired to be all alone up in the mountains with sheep and no women, things happen.  I read an old NY Times interview when BBM came out -- about such a "shepherd" who said that such things happen a lot.  And I am talking here about SEX and not love.  It was convenient.

But surely other people wouldn't have hesistated to try to kill Ennis and Jack, if they lived alone elsewehere...

I think that you're right. there were a lots of stories about sheep too  , and I'm not joking. If two shepards are together, than they'd look for a "comfort" in each other,but if one is alone, than things go to the strange side and they "play" sheep. I don't know should I also said that it's convenient but it is the fact!"

I think that unfortunately this is also the truth - some people would not hesitate to kill them  . it is just the attitude of the old man towards Ennis. Would this work for years? Could it work for years? That -I'm not sure! 

[atalley]

That's sick & disgusting...about the sheep, I mean.

[tpe]

About the sheep thing -- disgusting, but probably true.  Stories like this go back to remote antiquity...

Yes, I think that no matter how bad OMT was to Jack, he would probably not contemplate murder -- at least when it involved his own son.  The again, there is no real proof for this.  Just my feeling.  But I would think that it was more probable that they would be attacked if they lived on a ranch by themselves...

[vedrana]

That's sick & disgusting...about the sheep, I mean.

It is more than disgusting, but it is the truth. They used to stay for months in the mountains... so... put 2 and 2 together. I'd compare it to much more disgusting things today, but it would be too OT. 

[vedrana]

About the sheep thing -- disgusting, but probably true.  Stories like this go back to remote antiquity...

Yes, I think that no matter how bad OMT was to Jack, he would probably not contemplate murder -- at least when it involved his own son.  The again, there is no real proof for this.  Just my feeling.  But I would think that it was more probable that they would be attacked if they lived on a ranch by themselves...

I agree about John Twist - as despicable as he was, he'd never murdered his son, more because Mrs Twist was around. Also, I have a feeling that, in any danger, she would be the shield for Ennis too.

[tpe]

I agree about John Twist - as despicable as he was, he'd never murdered his son, more because Mrs Twist was around. Also, I have a feeling that, in any danger, she would be the shield for Ennis too.

I somehow think that Mrs. Twist would be more than a sufficient counterbalance to John Twist. 

[myprivatejack]

I somehow think that Mrs. Twist would be more than a sufficient counterbalance to John Twist. 

Mrs.Twist and the need OMT had of some ranchhand to help him.As we said in former posts,the same than Aguirre,he could depicted their relationship,but it was greater the need that they did their work properly while they could serve to his interests.

[vedrana]

I somehow think that Mrs. Twist would be more than a sufficient counterbalance to John Twist. 

I also think that protecting her son's happiness, Mrs Twist would've done anything, but still, it's not that she had any rights in that house. Although, having Jack and Ennis on her side, things would be easier for her. It would be 3 of them against one... well, I am almost ready to believe that things would work.

[tpe]

I also think that protecting her son's happiness, Mrs Twist would've done anything, but still, it's not that she had any rights in that house. Although, having Jack and Ennis on her side, things would be easier for her. It would be 3 of them against one... well, I am almost ready to believe that things would work.

It would ultimately depend on how the 3 of them can support each other against OMT.  The latter certainly is a tough nut to crack...

[vedrana]

It would ultimately depend on how the 3 of them can support each other against OMT.  The latter certainly is a tough nut to crack...

  I also think so, and at the beginning I thought that the things wouldn't work. Now, I somehow think that maybe 3 positive characters could form a circle, which would also be a tough nut ti crack.... And OMT would possibly be tamed if the things on the farm would work...

[tpe]

I also think so, and at the beginning I thought that the things wouldn't work. Now, I somehow think that maybe 3 positive characters could form a circle, which would also be a tough nut ti crack.... And OMT would possibly be tamed if the things on the farm would work...

At the very least, he could be ISOLATED. 

[vedrana]

At the very least, he could be ISOLATED. 

I have to admit that you almost made me believe your theory about LF! 

[tpe]

I have to admit that you almost made me believe your theory about LF! 

Come over to the Dark Side.        Just kidding. 

[vedrana]

Come over to the Dark Side.        Just kidding. 

  I know you are.

It is just that you've been here much longer and have more stable opinion about things. I feel that I am still searching for mine. 
But I like this searching, that is the journey we're all talking about.

Long live LF!  ... and our boys there... (OMG if only!)

[tpe]

I know you are.

It is just that you've been here much longer and have more stable opinion about things. I feel that I am still searching for mine. 
But I like this searching, that is the journey we're all talking about.

Long live LF!  ... and our boys there... (OMG if only!)

On the contrary, I find my opinions shifting all the time.  Perhaps it should be this way, given that there are no hard-fast certainties in Art.

[vedrana]

On the contrary, I find my opinions shifting all the time.  Perhaps it should be this way, given that there are no hard-fast certainties in Art.

Oh, really? That's interesting, but on the second thought it's not strange at all. No one would be able to be around this forum and discuss about things that are already cemented in his/her head for so long time. It would be pointless. It is just our maturing, new information, other people insights etc. that make this journey interesting, right?

To go back to the topic... I am so contented imagining 2 of them in LF now  (no OMT in my imagination though )... Even, I believe that living some place else could also be an option, but further from Wyoming or Texas, where they were known...

[tpe]

Oh, really? That's interesting, but on the second thought it's not strange at all. No one would be able to be around this forum and discuss about things that are already cemented in his/her head for so long time. It would be pointless. It is just our maturing, new information, other people insights etc. that make this journey interesting, right?

To go back to the topic... I am so contented imagining 2 of them in LF now  (no OMT in my imagination though )... Even, I believe that living some place else could also be an option, but further from Wyoming or Texas, where they were known...

Yes.   

Personally, I do think that perhaps both of them [along with Mrs. Twist] could have made things work.  I know that this certainly wasn't my opinion a few years back.  The trick is making Ennis believe that it was possible to make it work.

[myprivatejack]

Yes.   

Personally, I do think that perhaps both of them [along with Mrs. Twist] could have made things work.  I know that this certainly wasn't my opinion a few years back.  The trick is making Ennis believe that it was possible to make it work.

Yes,this would have been the most difficult thing to do;making Ennis believe that it could work... But I also believe-now more than some time ago-that once Ennis convinced to doing the "great step",Mrs.Twist affection and support would have been the best to diminish OMT inffluence;and being at the same time a convenient "cover" against other person's gossips,much more than being by their own.And even,who knows?,she would be the last and definitive push to make Ennis decide himself by means of this affection and support...

[vedrana]

Yes.   

Personally, I do think that perhaps both of them [along with Mrs. Twist] could have made things work.  I know that this certainly wasn't my opinion a few years back.  The trick is making Ennis believe that it was possible to make it work.

   Who pulled you to the "Dark side" of LF? 

It is amazing how we change our opinion about things. And it always seems so real and acceptable. In fact - anything is more acceptable than the real ending which in fact made us become addicted to the movie at the first place.

[tpe]

Yes,this would have been the most difficult thing to do;making Ennis believe that it could work... But I also believe-now more than some time ago-that once Ennis convinced to doing the "great step",Mrs.Twist affection and support would have been the best to diminish OMT inffluence;and being at the same time a convenient "cover" against other person's gossips,much more than being by their own.And even,who knows?,she would be the last and definitive push to make Ennis decide himself by means of this affection and support...

Yes, I think this was Jack's biggest hurdle -- making Ennis come around to agree to the idea.  I think John Twist would have been easier to deal with than this...  And certainly, Mrs. Twist would have made a big difference?

I speculate here: what if Jack had enlisted his mom to help him convince Ennis to come up to LF?  I wonder whether this would have been too much to ask her.  But could she have convinced Ennis, I wonder?

  Who pulled you to the "Dark side" of LF? 

It is amazing how we change our opinion about things. And it always seems so real and acceptable. In fact - anything is more acceptable than the real ending which in fact made us become addicted to the movie at the first place.

I don't remember anymore!   

Yes, we tend to think that opinions are less fluid than they actually are!

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I think this was Jack's biggest hurdle -- making Ennis come around to agree to the idea.  I think John Twist would have been easier to deal with than this...  And certainly, Mrs. Twist would have made a big difference?

I speculate here: what if Jack had enlisted his mom to help him convince Ennis to come up to LF?  I wonder whether this would have been too much to ask her.  But could she have convinced Ennis, I wonder?

I don't know for sure if she had could convinced Ennis,but what I mean is that,once the further step done (the great decision),she would have been the best help against OMT and society.As a matter of fact,she knew the kind of relationship his son and Ennis had from a very long time;maybe she couldn't understand it completely,maybe-or surely-she couldn't admit it for her culture and environment.But she respected it,for love to his son.
So,maybe in a very discrete and subtle way,she could even make an "apart" with Ennis to make him understand things,in the discrete,subtle-and loving-way she spoke to him-his son's lover-when they met each other.It would have been rather difficult to Jack asking her mother in a direct way,and for her to accept it and to do it;but sometimes,things aren't needed to be said directly,only by giving enough "clues" to the one who can and wants to understand them,and above all,whose ears are guided for love.

[vedrana]

I don't remember anymore!   

Yes, we tend to think that opinions are less fluid than they actually are!

OT: I can remember some things about which I completely changed my mind (180^o)... (BTW; I miss orangetruck - he used to inspire some discussions a lot... Tony too... )

[tpe]

I don't know for sure if she had could convinced Ennis,but what I mean is that,once the further step done (the great decision),she would have been the best help against OMT and society.As a matter of fact,she knew the kind of relationship his son and Ennis had from a very long time;maybe she couldn't understand it completely,maybe-or surely-she couldn't admit it for her culture and environment.But she respected it,for love to his son.
So,maybe in a very discrete and subtle way,she could even make an "apart" with Ennis to make him understand things,in the discrete,subtle-and loving-way she spoke to him-his son's lover-when they met each other.It would have been rather difficult to Jack asking her mother in a direct way,and for her to accept it and to do it;but sometimes,things aren't needed to be said directly,only by giving enough "clues" to the one who can and wants to understand them,and above all,whose ears are guided for love.

Yes, I was speculating whether Jack should have asked for his mother's help in convincing Ennis to come to LF.  After all, he did talk about Ennis many times to his parents (OMT's comment is proof of it.) 

I somehow think that the relationship would have endured and worked out had Mrs. Twist intervened...