Topic: see you sunday,latest

[lightnin flat]

 i do feel sorry for alma left standing there holding her daughter crying,watching ennis drive in to the mountains with jack especially after she saw them kissing the evening before.

          she must of felt like she had her heart ripped out or worse.

   but i do feel extremely happy to see jack and ennis drive up in to the mountains to be together like they should of allways been.     

 i feel so much more happiness for jack and ennis.    than i do sadness for alma.

                               what are your thoughts on this.           







                                               

[tpe]

lightnin flat, I remember posts somewhere commenting on this scene.  Don't recall what thread it is...

In any case, I feel the same way: I was just too happy for Ennis and Jack to feel sorry for Alma.  It's not a matter of being unfeeling here.  After a long hiatus, we see Jack and Ennis together again, and we feel for them, naturally.  We are swept up by the joy of the reunion that it is difficult to focus on Alma's misfortune.

I think it is a fairly common device used in the film -- and used beautifully, I might add: to juxtapose scenes of happiness with scenes having an opposing emotional tug.

Witness the same thing when we discover Aguirre spying on their play.  We see it when Alma sees them kissing at the start of the reunion.  And we see Alma's tears at this very moment that must have been pure joy to both of them.

It tugs us in both directions, and effectively brings out conflicting emotions.  It tells us that life and feelings are never that simple -- that frequently mixed with joy is sadness, or the beginning of sadness.  For every ascent, there will be an inevitable  descent.

[jackster]

. . . It tells us that life and feelings are never that simple -- that frequently mixed with joy is sadness, or the beginning of sadness.  For every ascent, there will be an inevitable descent.

Exactly thomas.

We’re seeing all this basically from Ennis and Jack’s POV. We don’t see the traumatic evening Alma spent with the kids, wondering if Ennis is even going to come back at all. She’d probably never seen Ennis kiss ANYONE else (except the kids), let alone a man. The whole range of her emotions are summed up very effectively in that scene when Ennis returns to her with just a “Hey”. No talk, nothin’ (how Ennis). I wonder about the unseen meeting when Ennis finally returns from “fishin’ with Jack, what do you suppose the interplay would’ve been with Alma/Ennis? After a few days to think it over (by herself) you wonder why Alma didn’t just confront him right then. “Ennis, what the hell is this with this Jack? Git out!"

All these emotions are lost in our tidal wave of compassion for Ennis & Jack who have finally been united after being lost from each other four years.

[proulxfan]

I have to register some disagreement here, in that this scene almost spoiled J & E's reunion for me. Yeah, I was/am happy that they are together again at that point, it would be difficult not to be; but Ennis's indifference toward Alma as he's leaving just felt brutal, compounded by her tearful "gimme a hug" to Alma Jr. It definitely dampened my enthusiasm for the next scene-interesting choice of words since I belive that's where they're jumping naked off the cliff into the lake...  

The difference I guess is really one of degree...

[jackster]

Proulxfan, I don’t disagree with what you feel here (brutality), what I was nodding to thomas about was the sweet/sour nature of the event. Annie did it (typically) very well and succinctly:

The door opened again a few inches and Alma stood in the narrow light.

What could he say? "Alma, this is Jack Twist. Jack, my wife, Alma." His chest was heaving. He could smell Jack, the intensely familiar odor of cigarettes, musky sweat, and a faint sweetness like grass, and with it the rushing cold of the mountain. "Alma," he said, "Jack and me ain't seen each other in four years." As if it were a reason. He was glad the light was dim on the landing but did not turn away from her.

"Sure enough," said Alma in a low voice. She had seen what she had seen.

IMO this was fleshed out in the movie, broadened into the two scenes much like Alma’s role in general. I’ve felt the “what could he say?” was developed into Ennis’s leaving scene the next morning when there wasn’t much more he could say that wouldn’t be just lies anyway (something Ennis wasn’t good at). In the SS he does it over the phone, ouch! I don’t feel Ennis yet knew where “this thing” with Jack was headed. How do you say it’s over? Fifteen years later when Ennis was being torn apart by the relationship with Jack he had a virtually breakdown when trying to verbalize it. Maybe he could sense in Alma the “vibrations” that she knew what was going on here with Jack and in typical Ennis fashion he just wasn’t ready to accept it himself so tried to ignore it. She knew what she knew.

To me the combined scenes drive home the power of the "hot jolt" that seized Ennis upon the reunion. He was blinded by his emotions (again) but this time by his love of Jack. He did not see what it was doing to Alma. Like his physical outbursts, he became focused on a singular issue (Jack) to the exclusion of all else. IMHO

[LuvJackNasty]

Having been in Alma's shoes, I always wondered why I feel nothing but complete happiness that the boys are going off together. The first time I saw the movie, I felt that punch in the gut but it was short lived as I was trying to breathe when I saw that kiss!

All these emotions are lost in our tidal wave of compassion for Ennis & Jack who have finally been united after being lost from each other four years.

Perhaps that is why-well said Jackster. Maybe it is the fact that I watched that love grow from it's infancy, fell in love right along with them and then seeing them part ways when they came down from the mountain not wanting them to be apart.

[tpe]

Exactly thomas.

We’re seeing all this basically from Ennis and Jack’s POV. We don’t see the traumatic evening Alma spent with the kids, wondering if Ennis is even going to come back at all. She’d probably never seen Ennis kiss ANYONE else (except the kids), let alone a man. The whole range of her emotions are summed up very effectively in that scene when Ennis returns to her with just a “Hey”. No talk, nothin’ (how Ennis). I wonder about the unseen meeting when Ennis finally returns from “fishin’ with Jack, what do you suppose the interplay would’ve been with Alma/Ennis? After a few days to think it over (by herself) you wonder why Alma didn’t just confront him right then. “Ennis, what the hell is this with this Jack? Git out!"

All these emotions are lost in our tidal wave of compassion for Ennis & Jack who have finally been united after being lost from each other four years.

Are we crual for being so selective with our elective sympathies.  I think not.  It's human nature, and we have the knowledge that was denied Alma -- that they deeply loved each other in spite of themselves.

[tpe]

I have to register some disagreement here, in that this scene almost spoiled J & E's reunion for me. Yeah, I was/am happy that they are together again at that point, it would be difficult not to be; but Ennis's indifference toward Alma as he's leaving just felt brutal, compounded by her tearful "gimme a hug" to Alma Jr. It definitely dampened my enthusiasm for the next scene-interesting choice of words since I belive that's where they're jumping naked off the cliff into the lake...  

The difference I guess is really one of degree...

proulxfan, I think many people felt the same way.  In fact, I knew one gay couple who thought that it was horrendous -- the way Ennis treated Alma, and that the "moral tone" pf BBM was tainted.

As I had said, I do think it was the intention of the film makers to bring out such conflicting emotions  -- your reaction was probably what they had wanted from the majority of viewers.  It leaves us emotionally on edge -- the story ceases to be a simplistioc love-story and gains depth.

[aintfoolin]

 Throughout this film, every emotion we have is utilized. It is a classic and so many people relate to it. Love never goes out of style , though we all deal with love in different ways. Alma must have lived in quiet torture after she saw them.  I both liked and hated her though because she stood between Jack and Ennis in the very beginning, yet I felt a deep sadness for her plight later.
 We understand the depth of this film and Ennis and Jack's story because at one time or another we relate to the emotion in this excellent film. The characters are as human as human gets. I for one felt their pain and their happiness, yelled at their mistakes and bad choices, cried at their joy in the reunion scenes and SNIT, Ennis's lonliness, and Jack's pain. I hold a special place in my heart for them even today.

[ethan]

Very interesting topic. Thanks for starting it, lightin flat.

I have always thought that as far as the film is concerned, this scene is the only one that lets emotion completely released. I don't know if it was done intentionally. To me, it was the end of relationship between Alma and Ennis. Alma knew that she was not the first anymore.

Strangely, I was not affected by Alma's emotion as she teared for her marriage but celebrating Ennis's determination to go for fishing trip with his love, Jack.

[aintfoolin]

As long as Jack stayed away, Ennis resigned  himself to a life with  Alma and the girls. Soon as he recieved Jack's postcard Ennis at some point had to compare his love for Alma to his love for Jack.  The realization of who completed him the most. Alma clearly lost this comparative.He was able to exclude her so blatenly because the emotional bond was not there as it was for him with Jack imo.
 Ennis basically ignored her and I could understand her anger and resentment towards Jack and at the same time Jack and Ennis belonged together, not Ennis and Alma. I still think Ennis should have let her down easy from the beginning, but he did'nt. Instead he complicated matters further by marrying her and fooling himself into rejecting Jack. Too bad.

[jackster]

Aren’t there really two substantially different versions here?

In the SS Alma sees “the kiss” and, more importantly, Ennis KNOWS she sees the kiss. Suddenly it’s all out in the open. In this version Ennis later calls Alma from the motel to tell her they’re “goin fishin”. (right, even Alma would know what was up) But then this all just worked as “A slow corrosion” meaning (to me) that the relationship just sort of rusted away till there wasn’t much left. It didn’t end in a big fight and breakup when Ennis came back. So he must have had some way of making up with her, right?

In the movie of course, Alma also sees the kiss, but it appears (to me anyway) that Ennis doesn’t know she’s seen them kissing. So his act for Alma is that Jack’s relationship is a sort of a brotherly, really close friend thing (even though he knows different). In this situation he might think that Alma would not necessarily be so distraught, ‘cause she’d think they really were just “goin’ fishin”, nothing more than that. So why would he need to console her? He’s the head of the house (in his mind) so if he wants to leave for a few days, it's OK (probably first time in four years other than work). Not necessarily a BIG deal. Of course what he doesn’t know (apparently) is that Alma spied them kissing and knows that there is some strong stuff going on here – even if she doesn’t realize exactly what yet.

From the audience POV of course we “know it all” so naturally we’re both overcome by the reunion emotions AND we’re distraught by the abandonment emotions and the implications for Alma and her relationship with Ennis. IMO this is a very crafty way that McMurtry + Ossana turned the SS singular Ennis POV into a multi- dimensional Ennis / Alma / Jack POV for the audience. Anyone else feel this?

[lamusica]

Excellent point, jackster.
This is a big discrepancy between the ss and the film and you have given the first good reason for it that I have heard up to now.  I always wondered abaout it, but you have hit the nail on the head, I feel.

[welshwitch]

I always read the section in the ss as also implying that Ennis doesn't know Alma has seen him with Jack. In the movie she and Ennis appear to be acting like a man who's going off with an old buddy and knows it will annoy his wife, and a wife who feels put upon because she's being suddenly left to cope with two children on her own while her husband goes off to enjoy himself. The situation is so common that I don't know that Alma needs to suspect there's anything more to the relationship than friendship - plenty of wives resent their husbands' drinking/fishing/footballing/whatever friends.Ennis obviously feels guilty but trying to hide it because he doesn't think Alma is anything other than mad at him for leaving her on her own for several days.

I always assumed that when Ennis came back he's be dropped off by Jack and amble in and simply go on as before - don't see him making any speeches or feeling he has to apologize for being away. They hadn't invented New Men at this point; if the sexual relationship between him and Jack didn't exist, I could see the friendship being just one of those long-established pre-marriage things that wives have to put up with.

[aintfoolin]

After what she saw ,she knew she this was something beyond the * fetch us another beer honey * stage. Ennis was totally caught up in Jack in this scene. Happiness completly blinded him to Alma's concerns ( He's from Texas?) . He was not thinking straight at all and Alma was seeing a different Ennis , wanting to distance himself from her at all costs.
She may have been naive, but she knew Jack had some kind of hold over her husband, and he did'nt seem to be resisting it in any way. What could she do with this? Absolutly nothing. The kiss  and Ennis's subsequent behavior she saw told her that Jack had  some power over Ennis, and therefore herself, her marriage was a lie.
She  becomes frightened and desperate , tries to keep Ennis with her to no avail. This was devastating to her, She never questioned Ennis until years later when she was secure with Monroe. My thoughts.

[proulxfan]

Good posts everyone!!

I guess one thing that really surprised me about people's varying reactions to this scene was that I would have expected more sympathy for Alma's plight from female members here. But it seems that most of the posts from women I have seen on this topic have expressed sheer happiness for E & J being together again, (finally!). I am not passing judgment, there is no right reaction, but I was puzzled that I felt so badly for Alma that I had to almost force myself to rejoice for the two boys.

Jackster, interesting note on the sp providing us with multiple, conflicting viewpoints as compared with the ss.

WW, I talked some time ago with my sister about this scene; she has lived for the past 30 odd years in the west and has noted some of the ways and mores of "cowboy culture", and she sees Ennis's treatment of Alma as consistent with the reality of the place. Males are respectful and show deference to female strangers, but when it comes to their spouses or intimate others, they can often be dismissive or treat them as furniture. ( A HUGE generalization here, I readily admit.) But perhaps this plays a part in how this scene is depicted. MHO

(In all honesty I think I should add that I have a soft spot in my heart for Michelle Williams and her ability to convey Alma's mix of confusion, vulnerability, and later anger, so that's a part of it too, for me.)

[tpe]

I thought MW was exquisite in this scene -- you can really see the tension underneath the valiant attempt to look indifferent.  Ans she waves to them in the end of the scene, no?  As if she is confident that they will not see her tears from a distance?

[jackster]

I thought MW was exquisite in this scene . . . .

Ditto tpe. In watching this scene several times and in slo-mo, her performance here is as good as it gets. She's able to project the gut feeling of a young mother in distress clutching her child, right there with the best of them, especially in the close-ups. Made me think of other movie mothers in desperate situations. For some reason The Grapes of Wrath comes to mind (but I don't know why), mothers facing the unknown, worrying about the children, not knowing what tomorrow will bring. It knocks me out now in way it didn't at first, I guess the rush of the reunion and kiss seems to have distracted me from seeing her.

Interesting comparison . . . in the 4th of July scene she's clutching Jenny as she watches an unknown side of Ennis unfold before her eyes at a distance, same thing repeats itself here as she watches another unknown side of Ennis unfold before her eyes. The 4th of July presages this scene in some respects.

[lamusica]

Lots of great comments above!  There's a lot to Alma, isn't there?  I am a woman and I totally feel for Alma.  The first time I saw the movie, she blew me away with the look on her face when she saw the boys kissing.  That was perfect, to me.  Then I was so surprised as the movie unfolded to see that she never raises the topic with Ennis ( until waaaaay later at Thanksgiving).  It is things like this that draw me so strongly to this movie.  The expected doesn't happen.  We would expect Alma to go ape after seeing the kiss, but she completely keeps her reactions hidden.  It was at this point that I realized there was a lot of depth in Alma -- she wasn't just a little girl playing at being a grown-up.  Michelle Williams is so great in this role, and others I have seen her in.  I was rooting for her at the Oscars, but she was totally overlooked except for a nomination.  I guess that in itself is an accomplishment.

[jackster]

I was rooting for her at the Oscars, but she was totally overlooked except for a nomination.  I guess that in itself is an accomplishment.

You Bet!! It's hard when you don't go home with the statue, but when you think that she was one of five nominated out of a class of hundreds and hundreds, that's still pretty GD good. And look at how many other nom's she got too (IMDb link) http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0931329/awards, eleven!! She did OK and has a long career ahead.

[welshwitch]

It clearly says far more about me and my life experience/attitudes to women than it does about Alma that I felt/feel almost no sympathy for her - in fact in some ways I see Lureen as more comprehensible.

I'll creep away now.

[tpe]

Ditto tpe. In watching this scene several times and in slo-mo, her performance here is as good as it gets. She's able to project the gut feeling of a young mother in distress clutching her child, right there with the best of them, especially in the close-ups. Made me think of other movie mothers in desperate situations. For some reason The Grapes of Wrath comes to mind (but I don't know why), mothers facing the unknown, worrying about the children, not knowing what tomorrow will bring. It knocks me out now in way it didn't at first, I guess the rush of the reunion and kiss seems to have distracted me from seeing her.

Interesting comparison . . . in the 4th of July scene she's clutching Jenny as she watches an unknown side of Ennis unfold before her eyes at a distance, same thing repeats itself here as she watches another unknown side of Ennis unfold before her eyes. The 4th of July presages this scene in some respects.

Wonderful comparison, jackster.  This is indeed the first time we see her character Alma in a moment similar to that in the reunion.  There is consistency in how she reacts, no?  Her eyes tell all in these two scenes.