Topic: Ennis & Jack and new sexual theory

[Tony]

The subject of whether Ennis and Jack were straight, gay, or bi has been covered in a previous thread and there were many opinions.  Am not
going to try to reopen a "dead thread" but wanted to bring up a new theory proposed by two psychologists in 1984 that has been shunned as
unacceptable to gays AND straights.  It has possible relevance to those who supported the "straight-but love conquers all" versions.
     They proposed that straight males CAN have same gender sex based on 5 categories of personality.  Cat 1 cannot respond ever, and
curiously, make lousy husbands.  Cat 2 males could, in a pinch (say, prison or a desert island) but are known for being the party whips, always
criticizing any goofing off as gay. Cat 3 males never think of themselves as interested but, in fact, can experiment under the right conditions
(drunk with a buddy).  Cat 4 males are sensual, make excellent husbands, but would easily try the same gender because sensuality governs
them. Cat 5 males are almost sociopathic and will break any rule for their own pleasure.  In this theory, there are no bisexuals, and, alas, they
did not explore gays, only straights.  The theory is supported by pupil dilation tests which show that most straight males pupils dilate at the
sight of naked men, which means--some interest.
   The many opinions that were expressed in the "dead thread" were thoughtful, sometimes passionate, and sometimes influenced by what they
WANTED (as some admitted) the meaning of BBM to be-gay liberation or love conquers all.  But there IS a new working theory and it would
support Ennis being straight (as he showed no generic interest in other males), and Jack being---Category 4.
  Maybe the best answer I read was that Ennis was Jacksexual.  There was so much on both sides. am not reviving the issue so much as pointing
out that there is a new theory, covering the territory of unexpected behavior in straight males and it is being fought because it doesn't fit what
anybody wants to believe.  It doesn't settle the issue of Jack and Ennis and the final resolution of most was to focus back on an astounding love
story.  But wanted to let the "love conquers all"  people know that there is at least some support for the possibility of a straight male going
bonkers and yet remaining generically straight.  Phew!  Maybe should have left this one alone.  All I really hope for is HUMAN liberation and so
maybe we'll get there someday not by re-arranging the boxes in our minds but by squashing them.  It'll take a few centuries.  Tony.

[hpv]

What a fascinating theory, but since I'm not a male, I wouldn't know the thin nuances or subtlety of it,but very interesting to learn about, nevertheless.

[manhattangirl]

Very intriguing,  but I've always believed Ennis struggled with his sexuality, and the pain he when through, and trying to be who he truly wasn't. 

If anything Cassie is the perfect example of this.  When with Jack asked he if found any to marry, Ennis relied he was "putting the blocks on this little gal", but slowly drifting,  he continued"I don't know".  Ennis pretense of heterosexuality was gone.  When he returned  home, he cut her loose, not looking for her, or answering notes, the break was made.

Jack and Ennis was surely not the same,  but the view of their relationship were different, Jack played a waiting game with Ennis, getting comfort from where ever and who ever he could, Ennis knew that the rules in his mind were set, Jack was truly the love of his life, but he could never commit totally to him, so live alone, believing in this he was safe guarding what was his, and his alone.  Until the time was safe to  see him and gave Jack all of himself he could in that short time. 

Ennis homosexuality was clear to him to a point that caused him great stress and much joy, his love for Jack, how he was with Jack was his real self.

[tpe]

Thnaks Tony, interesting subject.

I myself believe in a contimuum, as far as sexual desire is concerned.  Whatever predisposes predominantly straight individuals to entertain homoerotic desires is something quite fascinating, and I so think the characters of Ennis and Jack touches on a number of these things, whether intentional or not.  I think the vagueness of it all is what makes the portrayal believable. 

[Matt Nasty]

hi im jsut making this question to ask your opinions on the characters sexuallity i personally cant be sure i think they could be possibly straight but have just fell in love. but some times i think that is true to ennis but jack is bi. and then sometimes i think they are both bi. but alot of people think they are just gay so thats plausible too lol.

as you can see i dont really have much of clue where i stand with this question but id love to hear your views?

[white_angel]

hi im jsut making this question to ask your opinions on the characters sexuallity i personally cant be sure i think they could be possibly straight but have just fell in love. but some times i think that is true to ennis but jack is bi. and then sometimes i think they are both bi. but alot of people think they are just gay so thats plausible too lol.

as you can see i dont really have much of clue where i stand with this question but id love to hear your views?

 To me Ennis happened to fall for Jack in a very simple reason, companionship at that point  in time.
The attraction  does not come only from opposite sex but also to  the same .
There is what you call body heat,, when two people are together and no one  other than them.. there is a feeling of an attraction.. of self dwelling.. of what you wanted to discover.. self provocation.

Ennis learned to weigh his feelings for Jack.. a mixed emotional feelings of total friendship.. of belonging.
I believe  it is influencial to the part of Ennis. He was betrayed by his emotions and began to tolerate his emotions and  nurture the love  in a different level... it is influencial.

With Ennis and Jack, they does not care anymore of what they are.. bi or gay. it does not matter anymore.
It is the human nature.. love.

But I find this a great love story. .... of all of us.
This is how I find Ennis....a soft touch of love.


BTW: Sorry for my grammar.. Englsih is not my language. I needed some correction.

[Matt Nasty]

To me Ennis happened to fall for Jack in a very simple reason, companionship at that point  in time.
The attraction  does not come only from opposite sex but also to  the same .
There is what you call body heat,, when two people are together and no one  other than them.. there is a feeling of an attraction.. of self dwelling.. of what you wanted to discover.. self provocation.

Ennis learned to weigh his feelings for Jack.. a mixed emotional feelings of total friendship.. of belonging.
I believe  it is influencial to the part of Ennis. He was betrayed by his emotions and began to tolerate his emotions and  nurture the love  in a different level... it is influencial.

With Ennis and Jack, they does not care anymore of what they are.. bi or gay. it does not matter anymore.
It is the human nature.. love.

But I find this a great love story. .... of all of us.
This is how I find Ennis....a soft touch of love.


BTW: Sorry for my grammar.. Englsih is not my language. I needed some correction.

nice message .
i think it is quite plausible that ennis is straight i mean i am and im attracted to jake he is to hot not to be lol

[white_angel]

nice message .
i think it is quite plausible that ennis is straight i mean i am and im attracted to jake he is to hot not to be lol

 Ennis sure is straight and it just happen he fell in love with Jack.
 And who will not fall for Jack? He's hot!

[manhattangirl]

I don't know, I've always had a different take on it.  For me, Ennis anguish was realizing who he was, and the fear of being that which his father could kill him for, was the tortured part of his soul.

It was there laying inside him, that curled up part of him, until Jack came along to awaken it.  The FNIT was like a release, Ennis is not an evil man, no malice in him, so when took Jack that first night, it like who he was really that was being released, Jack let him, not that Jack succumbed to him because Ennis forced himself on him, but because this was how it was, and going to be.   

Ennis biggest problem was reconciling himself to who he was, what Jack means to him, and how he knew the outside world was. 

Just my simple opinion.   

[Matt Nasty]

just wanted to say im not sure about any of this and i dont think anyone can be  i just no it doesnt matter what is is in my opinion end of story i know i am straight ecxept were jake is concernd i am not even slightly attracted to anyother men but the things id do to jake lol

[LuvJackNasty]

I don't know, I've always had a different take on it.  For me, Ennis anguish was realizing who he was, and the fear of being that which his father could kill him for, was the tortured part of his soul.

It was there laying inside him, that curled up part of him, until Jack came along to awaken it.  The FNIT was like a release, Ennis is not an evil man, no malice in him, so when took Jack that first night, it like who he was really that was being released, Jack let him, not that Jack succumbed to him because Ennis forced himself on him, but because this was how it was, and going to be.   

Ennis biggest problem was reconciling himself to who he was, what Jack means to him, and how he knew the outside world was.  

Just my simple opinion.   

Great post MG! I ditto all of it.

[NoReins]

I don't know, I've always had a different take on it.  For me, Ennis anguish was realizing who he was, and the fear of being that which his father could kill him for, was the tortured part of his soul.

It was there laying inside him, that curled up part of him, until Jack came along to awaken it.  The FNIT was like a release, Ennis is not an evil man, no malice in him, so when took Jack that first night, it like who he was really that was being released, Jack let him, not that Jack succumbed to him because Ennis forced himself on him, but because this was how it was, and going to be.   

Ennis biggest problem was reconciling himself to who he was, what Jack means to him, and how he knew the outside world was. 

Just my simple opinion.   

I think I may have bolded exactly the same bits that LJN did but I couldn't help it because I think you've hit the nail on the head here, at least for the way I see it.

The simple truth is that Ennis's whole life was ruled by what his father made him see when he was a child. In his head, being gay meant either being murdered yourself, or having the man you were with murdered, so he spent a lifetime denying it because he couldn't bear the idea of losing Jack in that way. He doesn't turn down Jack's offer of a sweet life because he doesn't want it but because he knows what it leads to. He even says as much in the motel room talk in the short story - that his daddy would kill them both if he walked into that room and saw them - and that's only moments after admitting that he's wrung it out a hundred times thinking of Jack. He just can't seperate the two things in his mind.

It's only when it's too late that something clicks over in his brain. He kept Jack at arm's length all that time, trying to keep him safe, but it didn't work. Despite it all, he lost Jack anyway - and I think it's then that he realises that he shouldn't have allowed his fear to dominate his love. That's part of the "Jack, I swear...", I think - swearing that he would do things differently if they could have their time over again. But that's a whole other discussion....

[tpe]

The richness of this topic is certainly reflected in the diversity of opinions and attitudes we see here.  Thanks friends for sharing your thoughts and opinions in this matter.  As I have said elsewhere, it is the discussion that matters the most -- much much more than a final answer.

[jackster]

Very well put Thomas, as always. 

[tpe]

Thanks also Jackster.  The discussion tell us so much about ourselves and about each other -- one of the great strengths of BBM the movie and ss.