Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[Tony]

     The sex scenes in BBM were kind of limited, maybe to avoid shocking a broader audience, but they are important and no one seems to
go into them much, as far as acting, and content.  We can do this without giving the moderators headaches. if we stay discreet, like the
sober, well-behaved Brokies that we are.   Hmmm.  OK, scratch that----like we're supposed to be.
    Would you change anything in the content and do you think any of the acting was lightweight?  I'll start off----As far as the brevity of
FNIT, going past like a blur, wouldn't change that.  One critic said part of the power of the film was that there were long stretches of a
peaceful flow, suddenly interrupted by quick action that was a punch in the gut.  So, would leave in the suddeness and brevity.
   But was really disappointed by the acting in FNIT, especially the face-off where they were up and pushing at each other before Ennis made
his move.  Heath Ledger fell flat, with a foolish grin that seemed to say: am tired of this 15th take, let's just get through it.  He made up for
it by the glazed look as he began the sex, but before that---amateur night at the local little theater.
    Then there's Jack.  Seemed like he was in pain and going along with it just to force Ennis to admit there was something between
them.  Got banged around on another forum site, by the ladies, surprisingly, who said no--he LIKED it.  Well then, couldn't he have had
some goofy, sheepish grin that said- hey, this ain't so bad, or some romantic dazed look, even if only briefly, in between the pounding of
his fist on the floor?  Jake made it look--painful & so, why be doing it in the first place. He could IMO, done a little better.
  SNIT-no complaints.  Well,anyway, what do you think?  It's ok to be frivolous (bring Aguirre into the tent for a threesome) or indignant
at changing anything.  But would you change anything, anything at all?



 

[jackster]

Interesting and tough thread Tony. Personally I’ve always felt the acting in these two scenes to be pretty darn good given the subject matter for these two guys, and it seems to be a good reflection of what the screenplay called for. Acting-wise I don’t have a lot to compare it to, it’s not like saying, “Oh, Burt Lancaster did it so much better in such-n-such film”. The class here is pretty exclusive. The SS is very limited in it’s explanatory treatment here (i.e. no SNIT at all). FNIT seemed to me a reasonable dramatic portrayal of two inexperienced, unsure, (maybe confused, maybe drunk) yet highly charged young men. Remembering it’s not a documentary or a porn film, it’s cinema, which can be allowed (required?) to be vague and cinematic.

Most disappointing to me was the loss of the male sexual atmosphere in the motel scene, I feel a lot of the bond and closeness of the men was revealed there in the SS and that scene while still very attractive in the movie didn’t make the emotional and erotic lock between these two guys for me the way the SS did. No fault of the actors here, just the SP, though SNIT helped make up for this loss.

Re: Jack FNIT in pain, and/or, no he liked it. Uh, yeah, . . . you’re both right, huh? They ain’t exclusive. IMO the emotional construct developed around any sexual encounter is one of those things that people do in LOTS of different, and very personal ways. So it’s difficult for me to criticize it as poor acting if the emotion comes across, to me both guys did yeoman’s duty here and I found both to be erotic.

[welshwitch]

I'd have preferred to have less of a close-up in the motel scene and for it to have given more of an impression of the closeness between them by showing them at ease when in contact with each other. I also think it's a pity there was so little of them together later, other than that brief shot of them asleep next to each other. The ss makes a point of saying how powerfully sexual the relationship remains anmd this doesn;t IMO comeover in the movie.

[lightnin flat]

   


     
        I wouldnt change them i would of liked the SNIT scene to have been longer because they were at   
         ease with each other unlike FNIT.And like welshwitch said some scenes later on would of been nice but all there was, was the arm around jack in the tent on their last night together.   

[lamusica]

     I realize we all have our own interpretation of everything, including sex, but, in my opinion, Jack's face perfectly reflected what he was feeling.  Sex can be funny, but it wasn't that night. It was purely a physical action toward a great release.  A grin on Jack's face would have completely taken away from the seriousness of the moment, which I think is integral to the movie.  He was experiencing every sexual feeling leading up to and including climax.  It was rough and it was quick.  This was no time for lingering and soulful love-making.
     As for Ennis:  He hadn't completely slept off his drunk, and was awoken rather abruptly when he felt his hand being placed on Jack (watch out for the censors!).  I think his face reflects the momentary confusion, then the resolution to take what was being offered.
I didn't find anything amateurish about the acting in this scene.  Anything with more levity would have been totally misplaced, in my opinion.  This action had to be fast and furious, rough and tumble, and I think that's what the guys gave us.
     I agree with ww about the motel scene, which is still one of my favorites.  But what she says about the difference between the ss and the film is well-stated.  Often I prefer the ss.

[babytammy7]

I would like that those scenes were longer......  

Really, I think those scenes are very well done!!! Movie critics said that FNIT was the perfect description of Ennis and Jack's personalities: Rough, passionate, confused, impulsive... The "face to face" moment describes perfectly Ennis' love: doubtful and then impulsive, cautious without showing his real feelings, without showing his deep love but, however, feeling it in a very strong way. The only way Ennis have to show his feelings is the violence; because of that he made love to Jack in that rough way according his way of love, his way of watching life: "I want but I can't, I want but I don't how".
That scene also describes Jack's love: He always made the first move in their relationship to get what he wanted, and always assumed the consequences of his acts, he liked them or not (feeling or not pleasure making love with Ennis).
That scene, that "face to face", is so erotic and for a lot of movie critics is one of the most well done sex scene in the History. It perfectly showing the way of making love of two confused, rough, drunk, inexperienced and so young men. Jack and mainly Ennis only knew the ranch life, so when they made love they behaved like the only reference they have: animals; they did it like animals. And because of that is so credible.

Then there's Jack.  Seemed like he was in pain and going along with it just to force Ennis to admit there was something between
them.  Got banged around on another forum site, by the ladies, surprisingly, who said no--he LIKED it.  Well then, couldn't he have had
some goofy, sheepish grin that said- hey, this ain't so bad, or some romantic dazed look, even if only briefly, in between the pounding of
his fist on the floor?  Jake made it look--painful & so, why be doing it in the first place. He could IMO, done a little better

In this forum there is a topic where we can watch Jack's face in that scene take to take, and we can appreciate all those little expressions of pleasure in his face. Besides, I don't think everybody smiling making love 
But Tony, if you think that Jack was in pain, I have to say that Annie told us that Ennis was virgin, but in all SS we can not find allusions that clarify if Jack was virgin or not in summer of '63. Annie said that Ennis was virgin but she didn't say if Jack was too. If Jack was virgin you can imagine that his first time could be painful.
But in the film we can sense that Jack was not virgin. But that means to me that he had sex with women and not necessarily with men, so, again, his first time could be painful.
Anyway, if Jack was not virgin and if he have had sex with men, that first time with Ennis could have been painful too 'cause Ennis was so rough and he penetrated Jack in a very hard way and without lubricant. So for me is normal that Jack/Jake's face wavering between pain and pleasure.

SNIT is perfect. I have no words.... Motel scene is also fine for me, though I would like to see that moment when they share a cigarette.....

And I'd really liked that Ang had filmed the last sex night they had in their last fishing trip. Annie wrote that last night of passion in a very beautiful way and for me it would have been wonderful watching that scene in the movie, 'cause I think that scene would have been so tender, so touching and so sexy, of course....

Well, those are my thoughts. Sorry for my english......

[manhattangirl]

IMO:

I wouldn't change the scenes of sex.

The FNIT was the declaration of want, started by Jack.  He took Ennis hand and brought it to him.  This is my body this is what I want you to have now take it.   "come on, come on" he whispers to Ennis.  Ennis without a second thought takes him that first night, that was pure sexual desire.

The SNIT was the intimacy, and that was established with the kiss.  The kiss is everything, that was surrender of not only the body, but the soul. 

What my only complaint is the lack of intimacy when they were alone.  The touching,  the closeness between the two I believe could have gone  futher than it did. 

These two men were deeply in love, and  saw each other only a couple a times a year.  In the ss the intimate moments were heartbreaking,  the way Ennis put his arm around Jack, Jack putting his hand between Ennis legs to keep warm.  When Jack took a swig from the bottle of whiskey and said "This is one of two things I need",  These types moments I would have like to have seen.  The only intimate sexless moment was the "dozy embrace", and this through Jack's memory. 

I just wish these moments were a little more than it was.

Just my thoughts.

[tpe]

I do think the FNIT and SNIT are effective contrasts to each other.  Each one acts as a pendant and a foil at the other.  I think the poetry and lyricism of the SNIT is accentuated by the contrast with the preceding scene.  They have very different aims, and I believe that for purposes of development, both worked.  Just my opinion...

 

[aintfoolin]

I think the  acting in the sex scenes as they are gets an A+ in my book, but I'm in the non-virgin camp with Jack. He acted liked he had experience in what to do. The positioning, and adjustments on his part were not awkward in any way,

There was anticipation of what was happening to him and he was was not doubtful in any way either. The roughness in which Ennis took him probably contributed to the painful expression at first, imo only lasted a few moments In FNIT, then he started to enjoy it as I did'nt hear any one saying stop, or trying to escape. He wanted it, asked for it and got it though Ennis's lube technique left a lot to be desired. Other than that all was well.  Smiling? no ones's playing here so no one's smiling. It's serious business going on. For Ennis, it's major discovery, for Jack total confirmation.  As someone said above , this was not a time for lingering , slow lovemaking , playful teasing and instruction books. This  is urgent, fast and designed for pentup release.Very erotic indeed.

The only thing I'd change would be more of SNIT -type sex in tha later years, but my imagination runs wild. Even some *angry sex* would have been good. Dreamin's free right?

[myprivatejack]

For me FNIT is well done and according to the ss spirit and what would happen to some young men in the same situation than them that night;I don´t find anything forced or confused-very clear,rather...-.As FNIT is the awakening of their sensations,SNIT is the awakening of their feelings;we can see more "prolegomena" as it belongs to a more thought-out,calm need of each other.
The problems arrive:A) With the motel scene.It must have been done more according to the raw sensuality of ss and,above all,it lacks the sharing of the cigarette and Jack´s asking to spend more days together-this is not sex,but one can imagine it happens...-and,in general,all the confessions they did in ss.It´d have been more demonstrative of the strong bond they had to each other and,somehow,more related with FNIT spirit.

[myprivatejack]

And B)With affection and/or desire demonstrations in older age(no one¡). I can imagine that,after 20 years,Ennis and Jack were situated in a kind of "conjugal repose and routine"  ,that is not the same be 19 than 40 years old and that the "champagne bubble" had already passed...But some scenes that show their affection and/or desire would have been welcome.
Doubtless,Hollywood´s rules mark a point one can´t surpass in order to be-how do you say it?-commercial,but not "very much";in this sense,showing two good-looking young men making out in a motel would be a sure commercial impact(uuuuuuuuuuuuh),but would deprive a little of efficacy the final story.I don´t know if my explanations make sense.

[tpe]

For me FNIT is well done and according to the ss spirit and what would happen to some young men in the same situation than them that night;I don´t find anything forced or confused-very clear,rather...-.As FNIT is the awakening of their sensations,SNIT is the awakening of their feelings;we can see more "prolegomena" as it belongs to a more thought-out,calm need of each other.
The problems arrive:A) With the motel scene.It must have been done more according to the raw sensuality of ss and,above all,it lacks the sharing of the cigarette and Jack´s asking to spend more days together-this is not sex,but one can imagine it happens...-and,in general,all the confessions they did in ss.It´d have been more demonstrative of the strong bond they had to each other and,somehow,more related with FNIT spirit.

I have not seen the word prolegomena in a while!   What you said here about FNIT and SNIT is quite apt, especially with this word. 

[myprivatejack]

I have not seen the word prolegomena in a while!   What you said here about FNIT and SNIT is quite apt, especially with this word. 

Sorry,I don´t understand very well what you mean...I wanted to express that in SNIT there´re more affection signals that the mere sexual relief.And that this belongs to a greater expression of feelings that the FNIT, as they had could think more quietly about their need of each other and,specially in Ennis´case,realize which were these feelings.IMO.

[lancecowboy]

I wouldn't change a thing.

I haven't read the short story, but to me, the movie portrayed exactly what new inexperienced, fearful young men would do in the circumstances that they were in. Male sex is often rough and tumble. It is part of the excitement. As brief and in glimpses as they were, the sex scenes were perfect because they did not overshadow the true essence of the story, which is about the love that developed. The sex was merely the culmination of the feelings already there, but could not express in any other way, but the rough explosive manner that was their way, the cowboy way.

I love the hotel scenes the best, except perhaps the singular moment when Ennis was looking at heaven and Jack was sitting next to him, looking at him. That perfect moment of contentment was shattered moments later by Jack's wishful thinking of the two of them in a ranch, "like this, always" and Ennis' response, recalling the moment of horror in his childhood that forever scarred him, and their relationship.

The conversations between the two men, in bed, besides the river, next to the camp fire, are the tenderest moments when the two were able to connect. The motel scenes, with Ennis lying in the arms of Jack, gently stroking his forearms, often in awkward response when he could not articulate a response. It foreshadows the two shirts, Jack's enveloping Ennis'. Ennis may have been the top in the sex scene, but Jack was the protector, the comforter, the parent to Ennis' lonely child, who erupts in uncontrollable anger from time to time when he missed Jack the most.

I think Ang Lee was perfect to make sex subordinate to the love that was a force of nature. Gay men tend to make love subordinate to sex. We can learn a lot from BBM.

To me, Brokeback Mountain is the perfect movie, it resonates in me, in places I didn't know existed. Thank you to all the people who made the movie possible!

[Tony]

     Hey, lancecowboy----that was a good post, and welcome aboard!  You've got a lot to offer as you put things across in a logical way,
and are consistent.
    Am not, myself, trying to be overly-critical---after all, am a Brokie and love this film.  But even Heath Ledger said there was zero
feedback from Ang Lee as they shot the critical scenes and he felt frustrated as he wanted criticism to help him get it right.
   Over-all, it did work very well, but  I still feel even a few seconds of change, like when they are squaring off, FNIT, would have made
it even better.  That one scene had many, many takes, to where the actors were probably exhausted, and yet, no help from Ang Lee.
    You found it just right, so you're in the majority, but you did very well in supporting the reasons why no changes needed.  Thanks for
the feedback and please be tolerant, as I know you will, of a few of us that are grumpy and wanted better.  Tony.

[lancecowboy]

Hi, Tony, thanks for the kind words, and I hope I didn't come across as intolerant. I understand and accept that everyone is different and responds to the movie differently.

I was only expressing my own perception of it. I think Ang Lee did a great job precisely because he made a movie that reached the maximum number of people on a topic that superficially is not within his own personal experience, or even the actors' personal experiences. He conveyed the depth of the topic, love, instead of the surface manifestation of that love, sex. I am not surprised that he did not give more feedback and direction in those scenes. Afterall, sex is so intimate that it probably took Heath and Jake many takes before they finally found the best chemistry that made the movie worked the way it did. We have to remember that these are straight men!

Perhaps I am such a wooz to love the way Ennis stroke Jake's arm in the motel bed, or simply give it a shake or two in response to Jake's expression of love. That is more sexual and expressive to me, than any overt sex act. Or the way Jake whispers into Ennis' ear, softly, Brokeback got us good, don't it?

Brokeback got me good, that's for sure.

[aintfoolin]

The film remains open to many interpretations and perceptions. Anyone, gay or straight who's  ever truly been in love can take something away from this film. It is universal in it's powerful  message. The sex scenes  stand out more in a sense that ther  is no statute for this  type of graphic ,gay sex in mainstream moviedom and the scenes are very tastefully done imo.
 Never  in the history of film has this been so realistically done , none that I've seen in my lifetime anyway.. Then  there are those who want more, some less, some like them just fine the way they are.

If Ang Lee left it up to two these two actors  to come up with realistic and erotic sex scene during FNIt and SNIT ,then surely he felt his vision was left in good hands. the acting was brilliant in them.  I hoped for more affection in the later years when they've become more accustumed to each other, mentally and physically.

As you say lancecowboy, they did not overshadow the clear message of the film  though, The characters and how they dealt with forbidden love in the rural 1960's goes a long way in telling the bigger story,  that love really knows no gender, color or creed. The right movie at the right time.  A classic.

I love the  new banner heading on top! Thanks.

[Tony]

      Hey there, lancecowboy, and thanks for the reply.  Did not at all think you were intolerant---my choice of words was wrong.  Am
myself, new to this forum and have been klutzy, at times, and also gone against prevailing ideas, but everyone here has been tolerant
and very kind.  They say what they think but it is in the context of a good conversation, something rarely found, these days.
    In your case, you not only write well, but have something to say---for example that, all too often, it's sex before love rather than
love first.  All I can tell you, as someone else new to the forum is---jump in, the water's warm, and if you have a rubber ducky floating
support, they wouldn't say anything---they might not even notice, fiddling with their own, perhaps.  We are Brokies, which means, above
all else, we love that film, so we have that in common.
     Anyway, can't seem to get anyone to challenge FNIT in any way, but noticed disappointment there wasn't at least one more scene
developing the sexuality.  That's still on topic.  Maybe some creative minds could develop that scene they wanted and maybe even
say where to place it in the movie and for what purpose.  Still respecting the original, just exploring, that's all.  So, given that that would
just be creative wandering, anybody up to the challenge?   Thanks- Tony.

[welshwitch]

I'd like to see a scene from the period when they were older but before the final break-up trip. It woul dbe good to see two "older " - late 30s, OMG! - men shown as still having and expressing a sexual attraction with the urgency of FNIT and some of the tenderness of SNIT, allied to the sort of ease that familiarity brings.

[lightnin flat]

I'd like to see a scene from the period when they were older but before the final break-up trip. It woul dbe good to see two "older " - late 30s, OMG! - men shown as still having and expressing a sexual attraction with the urgency of FNIT and some of the tenderness of SNIT, allied to the sort of ease that familiarity brings.

          Yes i agree with you that would of been nice to see the atraction later on. 
            I dont know if i would of liked to have seen it on their last night together 
             and then in the next scene jack was dead i think that would of been quite upsetting to see how they still felt about each other on there last night and how close they still were then to be hit with jacks death.

[lancecowboy]

I changed my mind.

I think perhaps it will add to the story, if there were additional sex scenes.

For example, the scene when Aguirre caught them horsing around. It would be powerful to show them not necessarily having sex, but perhaps kissing and caressing, washing each other. Well, actually, that would eventually lead to sex, but hey. Shrug...

Another great place to add some intimacy and sex would be at the end of the summer, after their rolling around in the grass, for the action to get intimate and perhaps sex. Then the explosive anger and frustration, again resulting in the punch, and back to the rest of the script.

There is also their first night back to Brokeback, and Ennis just finish explain the horror from his childhood. Jack started caressing his ear... There can be just intimacy without the sex, and it would work to show the strengthening bond between them.

I still think the movie is perfect the way it is, but having lived Brokeback for a few weeks now, I can see why others would want more. But we can't have everything in life, can we?

The movie is meant for people who don't know Ennis + Jack, who don't like people like them, who has no idea what it means to be in love with a soul mate and share a life. The additional scenes would be great for us, adding more intensity to an already intense movie. But they may distract the others and take away from the love that was a force of nature. In the short story, the medium is different enough, less graphic and more psychological, that the additional scenes helped to paint a clearer image of the two characters.

I will have to read the short story to comment on the additional scenes. I look forward to them. 

[tpe]

Sorry,I don´t understand very well what you mean...I wanted to express that in SNIT there´re more affection signals that the mere sexual relief.And that this belongs to a greater expression of feelings that the FNIT, as they had could think more quietly about their need of each other and,specially in Ennis´case,realize which were these feelings.IMO.

I agree.  But the FNIT was necessary -- it prepared the way for the SNIT, I believe.  The initial awkwardness/rawness is gone, to be replaced ny greater tenderness/feeling.

 

[tpe]

I still think the movie is perfect the way it is, but having lived Brokeback for a few weeks now, I can see why others would want more. But we can't have everything in life, can we?

True.  It makes those moments really special.  It is for those moments -- not to often realized -- that we live for.

[Tony]

      Hmmm....I wonder should I give up?   It does seem that Brokies have donned liturgical vestments, placed FNIT on an altar with votive
candles and are circling it, swinging incense.  Never wanted the scene totally altered--just a few seconds---maybe Ennis looking away, dazed,
before going into the animal phase so brilliantly described as such by BabyTammy7.  Just a little more there, and maybe more credibility to
the pawing at each other after squaring away.  But the incense keeps wafting, and so will leave it alone.
    Then turned to other possibilities and there got a few burps.  Welshwitch restored my hopes for the British.  I had thought they were
basically sexless, waiting around for another scandal with a cabinet member caught with some gal with boots and whips, so they could arch
an eyebrow, harrumph, and then get on with the day.  But Welshwitch proposed a scene when Ennis and Jack were more mature and
comfortable with each other and this was something new, although difficult to picture.  At any rate, I now know the English DO have------
sexuality and so, have prospects of reproducing.  Thank-you, Welshwitch, for that, and thanks also to the others, who thought it over.
    Please---keep trying.  On another thread, someone brought up Ennis twitching an ear in the motel scene.  Will settle for more
twitching ears, subtle variations, just about anything.  There are scenes, especially towards the end, that I can't ever see being altered
in any way-especially from Jack's death on to the final scene.  But with the sex scenes, still hold that we could have hoped for more-
not anything radical---just--a little more.

[lightnin flat]

      Hmmm....I wonder should I give up?   It does seem that Brokies have donned liturgical vestments, placed FNIT on an altar with votive
candles and are circling it, swinging incense.  Never wanted the scene totally altered--just a few seconds---maybe Ennis looking away, dazed,
before going into the animal phase so brilliantly described as such by BabyTammy7.  Just a little more there, and maybe more credibility to
the pawing at each other after squaring away.  But the incense keeps wafting, and so will leave it alone.
    Then turned to other possibilities and there got a few burps.  Welshwitch restored my hopes for the British.  I had thought they were
basically sexless, waiting around for another scandal with a cabinet member caught with some gal with boots and whips, so they could arch
an eyebrow, harrumph, and then get on with the day.  But Welshwitch proposed a scene when Ennis and Jack were more mature and
comfortable with each other and this was something new, although difficult to picture.  At any rate, I now know the English DO have------
sexuality and so, have prospects of reproducing.  Thank-you, Welshwitch, for that, and thanks also to the others, who thought it over.
    Please---keep trying.  On another thread, someone brought up Ennis twitching an ear in the motel scene.  Will settle for more
twitching ears, subtle variations, just about anything.  There are scenes, especially towards the end, that I can't ever see being altered
in any way-especially from Jack's death on to the final scene.  But with the sex scenes, still hold that we could have hoped for more-
not anything radical---just--a little more.

 
       Perhaps to some people seeing ennis,s ear in the motel scene means more to them than the sex scenes
its because you couldnt see ennis,s face in that scene that made you realise  how strongly he was acting
 and its a little endearment to what jack said to him.Like i said i would of liked to have seen more affection later on in jack,s and ennis,s realationship and perhaps a bit longer SNIT because they were more relaxed with each other but other wise to me it was right   
              Only two british people put posts on here that hardly puts us in the majority to say we are sexless.

[Tony]

      Lightnin Flat---am really sorry about tweaking the Brits, and that is sincere.  I think you all are very far ahead of so many other people
and so maybe it's a case of teasing those that we admire.  Won't do it again.  In fact, have been a little off-the-wall in this forum and will
tone it down in all my posts, because I think highly of each of you, and need to consider that thinking, before posting, could go a long way.
Not only to not giving offense, but also to being less embarrassed by my own self when I get a little whacky.   Again, the apology is
sincere-my sense of humor needs a little work or else it needs to go.  Much love--Tony.

[welshwitch]

Wacky is good.

The Brits, as you call them, though they tend more to see themselves as English, Welsh, Scots, Irish, are uncomfortable TALKING about sex or watching its manifestations/enactment in real life or in screen. What they DO in private is rather more complicated, i think; the English, at least, are brilliant at giving an impression of personal restraint and public indignation, but it may be only an impression. I think some of us at least are also less censorious than a lot of Americans, certainly with regard to gay sex.

[lightnin flat]

      Lightnin Flat---am really sorry about tweaking the Brits, and that is sincere.  I think you all are very far ahead of so many other people
and so maybe it's a case of teasing those that we admire.  Won't do it again.  In fact, have been a little off-the-wall in this forum and will
tone it down in all my posts, because I think highly of each of you, and need to consider that thinking, before posting, could go a long way.
Not only to not giving offense, but also to being less embarrassed by my own self when I get a little whacky.   Again, the apology is
sincere-my sense of humor needs a little work or else it needs to go.  Much love--Tony.

   
 
  Tony i am sure your sense of humour is fine i suppose we all get a bit defensive if someone says something about your own country or the people in it i know i do . apology accepted              
 
     I am sure there are cabinet ministers prime                                     
ministers  and presidents getting up to no good all over the world                                                                                                 
                                                                                                       
 

[lancecowboy]

Wacky is good.

The Brits, as you call them, though they tend more to see themselves as English, Welsh, Scots, Irish, are uncomfortable TALKING about sex or watching its manifestations/enactment in real life or in screen. What they DO in private is rather more complicated, i think; the English, at least, are brilliant at giving an impression of personal restraint and public indignation, but it may be only an impression. I think some of us at least are also less censorious than a lot of Americans, certainly with regard to gay sex.

You are right on target there. I love all the British humor, from Monty Python to Benny Hill. And with respect to restraint and sex, I agree with you that it is more of a facade, and that behind closed doors, all the repression comes bubbling out in different ways. Restraints are some of them. 

I appreciate the differences among the different nationalities within the United Kingdom. 
But I am not sure I know their different attitudes towards gay sex in general.

[aintfoolin]

Well , I was thinking about the sex scenes between Ennis and Alma. Hot or not? It looked like traditional sex to me, until Ennis flips her over. Shows how much Ennis craved this type of sex I believe. I  suppose he thought about Jack with these goings on. I wonder if she equated ( the way Ennis took her) ,with Jack after she saw them kiss. According to the SS she did not enjoy it. "This is why Ennis wants it this way", It's the way he does with Jack.  As seemingly naive as she was, she had to figure this out. She now has to deal with not only the emotional trauma, but the sexual aspects as well. A place where she can't compete even if she wanted to.  ..but she remained the "dutiful" wife for some time. Just a thought.