Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[myprivatejack]

Well , I was thinking about the sex scenes between Ennis and Alma. Hot or not? It looked like traditional sex to me, until Ennis flips her over. Shows how much Ennis craved this type of sex I believe. I  suppose he thought about Jack with these goings on. I wonder if she equated ( the way Ennis took her) ,with Jack after she saw them kiss. According to the SS she did not enjoy it. "This is why Ennis wants it this way", It's the way he does with Jack.  As seemingly naive as she was, she had to figure this out. She now has to deal with not only the emotional trauma, but the sexual aspects as well. A place where she can't compete even if she wanted to.  ..but she remained the "dutiful" wife for some time. Just a thought.

Yeah,I suppose sex between Ennis and Alma was developing in a very traditional and even boring way,in a great part because I think Alma-even when she knew her husband´s affair-took it as a duty.This makes sense to why she didn´t say anything after she discovered Ennis and Jack kissing, and for a long time after,and why she kept on having sex with him quietly.She maybe thought somehow she could "recover" her husband by making what he liked;but I really believe that  in her innest part of herself,she knew she couldn´t be the winner,neither in bed nor in others aspects of Ennis´life.

[aintfoolin]

Yep, seems there were alot of "dutiful" acts taking place . Ennis himself was apparently only doing his duty also. had a strong sense of it.  For a while it looked like Ennis was having his cake and eating it too. The best of both worlds might I say. Maybe she did think she could "reclaim" and even " fix " Ennis by staying. In any case she must've loved him regardless. She was fighting a loosing battle, so it seemed with Jack too as was eventually revealed. I think it's obvious that Ennis  related and identified with Jack more, sexually and emotionally.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis sexual self always led him back to Jack.    Which was one of the reasons there was no way he could let him go, but unlike Jack, he tried to control his desires.   But it did come to the surface, Alma tried deal with it, but later understood why he wanted her in "that way".   

This was one of the reasons why the relationship fell apart the way it did.  Ennis didn't understand, but Alma did. 

Ennis's biggest battle was dealing with his true self.  IMO.

[Tony]

     Many thanks to myprivatejack, aintfoolin, and manhattengirl for expanding the topic to include Ennis and Alma.  But for me, this is a case
of--be careful of what you ask for, cause you just might get it.  And am in a little trouble because of seeing things a little differently as to
Ennis' sexual preferences.  Not greatly different, but enough to get into this a little bit more.
    The SS supports the concept of gender role-playing, with the author almost suggesting that  was what Jack was built for, in the origin of
his name (Twist meaning, I believe, a sturdy rump, in cowboy lingo) and also Ennis calling him "Lil Darlin".  Husband-wife. 
    Yet we always have that dilemma-the film DID separate from the SS, and so, am going usually with the film.  And I think the film supports
MOST of the relations between Ennis and Alma were standard.  Look back, please.  Before Ennis flips Alma over, she was preparing for
regular intercourse, and with some passion, so----that's what she was expecting and she would not have expected that unless it was the
usual. And again, when she fends off Ennis (with all those bills, shouldn't they take some precautions?), they are preparing for standard
intercourse.  The other type of intercourse, ummm, doesn't produce another baby.  So there's evidence Alma got a lot of lovin', the usual way.
     As to Ennis and Jack, I have little doubt that, er, Ennis was usually on top and Jack liked it that way.  But no husband-wife role-playing
was there, and with the love that Ennis had, am fairly confident, he gave himself to Jack in various ways.  There is equality between a husband
and wife, so these issues don't or shouldn't come up.  But between two men, they would, and were settled by Ennis and Jack in ways that
are left for us to figure out.
    Again, am seeing this only a little bit different from most others, but I hope I have supported it.  Thanks again, for being willing to explore
the topic and for each and every one of you handling it well.  Am still, however, in awe of BabyTammy7's post, especially, as she went to
the raw passion: "they did it like animals", and her explanation as to.....why.   Much love-Tony.

[aintfoolin]

I did'nt see much true affection on Ennis's part for Alma, except right after the wedding in the snow. I'm not privy to how often they had sex, but I bet it was'nt much. In the one scene, Ennis made it sound as if sex with her was only to have children anyway.
 He would have been happy to "leave her alone" as if it did'nt really matter one way or the other. I get the feeling he did'nt feel very sexual at all, except when he was with Jack. Then he could'nt get enough. This speaks volumes about Ennis's preference.
 Same with Cassie. He admitted "putting the blocks" to her on more than one occasion.  I find it fascinating that Ennis can have sexual relations with women, but anything more with them was very unlikely. The man had secrets to keep.
  Makes me wonder who Ennis is really physically attracted to, and begs the question, can Ennis feel physically attracted  or even sexually attracted to another man, which I think has it's own thread somewhere or has been discussed in many areas on the forum. imo, any woman he meets will never measure up to the one he loved and wanted sex with and that's Jack. He could never willingingly let Jack go, though he'd never speak it. Jack's love controlled him in ways he could not fully comphrehend.

 Tony,
 I love all your posts, but some things you say in this one intrigues me and had nagged at me for some time. Thank you for opening up this can of worms!! How did Ennis really percieve Jack? The "little darlin"  certainly has connotations to me like Ennis sees Jack in sort of "feminine" context, the one on the bottom. Yet I feel that when Ennis looks at Jack, he sees a study in masculinity, at the same time.  I can't see Ennis relating to those wonderful men who let their "feminine" side shine through. I feel it is part of the attraction to Jack, that Jack was "all man" , masculine like him. Of course there is nothing fem about Jack , but I keep getting the feeling that Ennis somehow percieves Jack as the one to be dominated but as you say, I think Jack prefers it that way. Perhaps role-playing is appropriate if both parties are comfortable with their respective "roles". I feel it's the case here. MO.

[lancecowboy]

[...]
  Makes me wonder who Ennis is really physically attracted to, and begs the question, can Ennis feel physically attracted  or even sexually attracted to another man, which I think has it's own thread somewhere or has been discussed in many areas on the forum. imo, any woman he meets will never measure up to the one he loved and wanted sex with and that's Jack. He could never willingingly let Jack go, though he'd never speak it. Jack's love controlled him in ways he could not fully comphrehend.

 Tony,
 I love all your posts, but some things you say in this one intrigues me and had nagged at me for some time. Thank you for opening up this can of worms!! How did Ennis really percieve Jack? The "little darlin"  certainly has connotations to me like Ennis sees Jack in sort of "feminine" context, the one on the bottom. Yet I feel that when Ennis looks at Jack, he sees a study in masculinity, at the same time.  I can't see Ennis relating to those wonderful men who let their "feminine" side shine through. I feel it is part of the attraction to Jack, that Jack was "all man" , masculine like him. Of course there is nothing fem about Jack , but I keep getting the feeling that Ennis somehow percieves Jack as the one to be dominated but as you say, I think Jack prefers it that way. Perhaps role-playing is appropriate if both parties are comfortable with their respective "roles". I feel it's the case here. MO.

Yes, thank you, Tony, for bringing up these insightful questions. I also wondered about their relationship. I don't see their roles in the traditional dom-sub pattern because I think they are both complex characters with different needs and issues. I agree that Ennis has trouble being affectionate not only with women but also with any other men. It is why Jack is the love of his life. Jack is the only outlet for all his passion. That's why the SNIT, he sat by the fire for so long, (and wasn't Jack wonderful, just waiting half-naked with a grin on his face) before going shyly with a hat in hand. If Jack did not open up Ennis, the man would have gone through life without passion in his relationships. Once he opened up, after the initial awkward/sublime kiss that transformed him, the rest of the scene was about how much he craved the touching, the coming together of two souls. He needed someone to chase away the loneliness of his childhood. No one else saw it or could do anything about it. Jack felt it the first time they met. Jack loved him for it. I think Jack is masculine and dominant in a normal relationship, as seen in his marriage, and even with the father-in-law. He put up with the abuse for a long time, until finally he put his foot down, and felt like it was orgasm the way he was breathing so hard. With Ennis, however, I think he was willing to submit, for Ennis' sake. But when Ennis needed it, he could be the top, like in SNIT, when Ennis became the little boy who needed to be held, to be loved. It's also why the scenes in the hotel room are always with Ennis cradled in Jack's arms. And the shirts are symbolic of that, too.

Ennis is probably like most men, too uptight about their masculinity to be the bottom, but would enjoy it with Jack, if they don't talk about it or make a big case about it.

Just my two cents worth.

[Tony]

     Hello, aintfoolin---that really is a messy area-how DID Ennis see Jack, in male terms and you took the risk and said as "the one to be
dominated", although that quote from you is too confining to cover what else you did say.  I agree, it's a worthy area and I'll take some risks,
too.
     Am heavily influenced by a major book, "The Naked Ape" by Desmond Morris, in which he says that there are dominance issues between
ALL men and that we have a whole laundry list of ways to settle them.  Among these are threat stares, body language, and actual fighting
that establish who's who.  Rather than being kinky, it's really a way to organize males and co-operate, for hunting and warfare.  Morris
was a zoologist and rocked the psychological explanations given before.  In fact, he said we resemble pack animals such as dogs who all
have to defer, carefully, in the hunt, to achieve a goal.  No kinks-just---organizing.
    If you apply Morris to Ennis and Jack as male friends-Ennis does establish light dominance but is never upset that the issue is never really
settled.  They push each other back and forth, all the way to the end.  But add in the sexual dimension and everything goes astray.
Clearly, Ennis is what gays call a top man, but there is always some equilibrium between two male friends or lovers if EVERYTHING is taken
into account.  This is the problem:  males DO have dominance issues, but ALSO seek to find compensating factors to have equilibrium.
    It just seems to me that BOTH were virile and respected that in each other.  Remember what else Ennis found in Jack's room-that little
carved cowboy toy. Jack wanted to BE that virile male and, yup, to have one for himself, too.  I still believe there was a strong tilt to Ennis
being a top man but probably 70-30, or something like that.  He loved Jack too much to deny him any desire, and I strongly believe the
tenderness in SNIT was leading to what we didn't see, Ennis giving himself. (Please remember, am working from the film, not the SS, where
the issue is more settled).
    Aintfoolin, this one would need a book, to explore and it deserves attention.  And yet Lancecowboy is right in summing up, if I got what
he said right, that all sorts of things work out "if they don't talk about it".  Guys are like that-it's all good but don't never be saying nothing.
Breaks the code.   Will pursue this more if you do, but I ain't a-gonna  go into this territory alone.  Tony.

[aintfoolin]

It is a *delicate matter, but knowing what we know about Ennis and the conflicted way he dealt with his own feelings about this leads me personally to believe Ennis never would bottom.

 In FNIT, I think he established what to him was the norm in the relationship as far as sex goes . He clearly struggles with what he percieves himself to be. And that aint "queer". Perhaps Ennis has his own definition of what "queer" means in his mind. Can rationalize it in his mind to justify  his uncontrolled desire for Jack, another man, but can never "act out" what society generally sees as the "feminine role" with him. It would confirm what he refused to believe of himself and what he was taught to deny.
It is the real essence imo of what he fought against within himself. I don't exactly know what Jack was hoping to happen in FNIT, or how it all was going to go down( who would top, who would bottom) but Ennis took over the lead before he had a chance to establish what that was. I see  as Jack asking the question, " Do you feel this way too ? he was pretty sure his instincts were right, in order to be the initiator as boldly as he did,  going on to show Ennis that he meant business.
 And then Ennis after much contemplation and established truths deep within him answers Jack in SNIT with his cautious, yet undeniable realization that he did also felt the same. With major communication lacking, I believe this became the norm for both of them, though I think Jack enjoyed the "role". My opinion.

[manhattangirl]

This is a interesting exchange. 

IMO:

I find it fascinating how in order to understand a relationship  between Jack and Ennis we put it in a context of submissive role and dominate role.   Ennis because he is the strong silent type, the ideal man of the west.  Jack, the more open of the two, talkative, friendly, the "buddy" type, compared to Ennis, would draw some to think of Ennis as being dominate, and Jack role as being submissive to him.

 Yet underneath the surface one could see some subtleties of their relationship that might draw one to another conclusion on the  dynamics of their relationship.  We see in the first night how Ennis takes Jack, but how much of it was what Jack wanted to happen in just this way?  And the way Jack waited for Ennis the second night, he knew Ennis would come back to him,  Ennis did.   

At end of that first summer, I've read post of how Jack seem almost non caring attitude that they were parting maybe forever, and I think this is a kind of bad rap, he did care, but Ennis plans were Ennis's plans, and that "one shot thing" was just that, for the time being.  For Ennis emotional and physically the parting was too much to handle, he was in love, hurting, and repressed it.

Jack again after four years of separation reaches out again to Ennis, and Ennis sits by the window to wait for him.  With safe guards Ennis needs, Jack returns every year after that the suitor, who returns to be with his love.   

Ennis reassured from then on is content with his lover.   Jack is patient, careful, accommodating and waits  for Ennis to concede to his proposal to live together.    Jack was who he was, not denying his needs, did go elsewhere.  Then there's Randall, no matter how we feel about the introduction of this man into his life.  How different it much have felt to be the the pursued,  to be the one that was reached out for.  And be the one to submit.   I saw Randall as an the who would take the reins on that relationship, (if there was one). 

Anyway I was just wondering if there was another way to look at this.  This just my thoughts. 

[myprivatejack]

Very interesting posts .Well,I can only add-difficult task,btw  - that someone said that Jack really took the "feminine" role in their relationship as he had the main part in seduction´s tasks from the beguinning-using sometimes very subtle ways,as cliché says women do,until FNIT-.And that Ennis was definitely the "man" because he was the seducted and,of course,in a phsycal sense,he was who penetrates,who had the masculine role.I know they told Jake this about his character,and how he made "woman´s part", and he´s still laughing at...But the true is that I agree with aintfoolin in that Ennis´"little darlin´" gives Jack some feminine context in his mind;as a matter of fact,he was the classical country boy in which masculinity-often as a male,not as a man-is very appreciated.So,perhaps some "variations",as Lance says,"was nobody´s bussinness,but theirs".

[manhattangirl]

Is it male/female or who has the power at that moment.  FNIT did Ennis take it, or did Jack offer it.  I doubt it was feminine wiles Jack possessed at that moment, or was it  take me or I will take you, Ennis answered that question.    Did Jack knew Ennis wanted it this way and did he concede at this moment this is how was it going to be from then on, or did SNIT change the dynamic, and Ennis submit to Jack?   Is there roles? Are they interchangeable?   

 

[tpe]

Well , I was thinking about the sex scenes between Ennis and Alma. Hot or not? It looked like traditional sex to me, until Ennis flips her over. Shows how much Ennis craved this type of sex I believe. I  suppose he thought about Jack with these goings on. I wonder if she equated ( the way Ennis took her) ,with Jack after she saw them kiss. According to the SS she did not enjoy it. "This is why Ennis wants it this way", It's the way he does with Jack.  As seemingly naive as she was, she had to figure this out. She now has to deal with not only the emotional trauma, but the sexual aspects as well. A place where she can't compete even if she wanted to.  ..but she remained the "dutiful" wife for some time. Just a thought.

Of the heterosexual straight scenes, I must admit that I do find the one between Jack and Lureen quite spicy.  Perhaps it could have been improved by having Jack remove some of his clothes. 

[Tony]

     I knew if we waited long enough, we would find a naughty streak in tpe.  So, tpe, which part of Jacks clothes do you want off---shirt or
trousers?  Drop that book on 14th century mystical poetry and let it rip.....we're waiting, with interest!
     Meanwhile, this might be the time to thank everybody for being so very honest and practical without sending the moderators to red alert.
We've covered raw, barnyard boinging, pain and pleasure not being mutually exclusive, we've used the "L" word (lubricant), gone to boots
and whips (and beaten a hasty retreat) and are now frolicking in dominance/submission and ALL of this with casual Brokie good taste.
Congratulations!!!!
    But, back to recent posts, the nature of sex acts between Ennis and Jack (who did what to whom), seems to be causing us to delve into
the larger issue of who they were to each other.  Again, the SS hints at gender role-playing, husband & wife, but with no loss of virility.
And again, am, myself, sticking to the film as the final product.
    In my ratty little blue-collar neighborhood, as I grew up, there was a LOT of  adolescent, or rather, teenage, sex between the males,
always following the code-never refer to it, and never kiss (that would be--gay).  Male bonding to an extreme, I guess.  From this background,
am very sensitive to SNIT, where they do kiss.   This was a huge leap from doggy-dog male rule-breaking--to romantic love.  And in this
move into not sex, but romance, Ennis was giving himself over to Jack entirely.
    So am sticking to my guns, that, yes, Ennis was what gays call a top man, but that he was more than willing to break any pattern for
Jack's sake and am very confident they found a sexual equilibrium that had no role-playing.  They were too confident, together, which means,
they'd done it all, and then settled down to some pattern or other.  As to dominance, that was NEVER settled-they always felt free
to challenge each other.  I think they found what too many have never ever had--sex entangled in profound love, each and every time
after FNIT.  Unlike the SS, no role playing, no reins on their private doings at all.  Preferences, yes, but some variety thrown in, too.  Tony.

[aintfoolin]

 I tend to believe that FNIT was not Jack's "first rodeo" into gay sex.  Although Ennis chose the dominate position in FNIT, Jack  assumed the position all too well , but his statement to Ennis later on about " needin sumthin he never gits" is telling to me. Preferences are very personal and tends to be an indvidual choice, but the picture in my mind of Jack, on all fours, waiting for Ennis to unzip and the urgent anxiousness of this moment, him not trying to reverse things in any way, even a wanting " comon" says to me Jack had been in this position before and preferred it more.  Within this statement I read into it that  he has a "bottom" preference. I just feel this way, don't know why, but it's just a gut feeling. Perhaps it's all in Jack's "leading " of Ennis which happens quite alot in the film.
Going on assumptions at times his instincts about Ennis's desires where usuaually correct. Had him pretty much figured out as far as sexual aspects go, but imo Jack had been "around the block "with this more than Ennis therfore having more opportunity to establish a preference. Judging from Jack's " submissive personality to Ennis throughout most of the film, he went along with it it knowing that Ennis felt conflicted about his sexuality, how Ennis felt threatened by any "feminine assumptions" partly out of fear of loosing Ennis or spooking his fears, I feel he assumed the fem-role in the sexual aspects, while maintaining his masculinity otherwise.  Still don't think Ennis would bottom though, No doubt he loved Jack deeply, but this was a big strech for Ennis to get to. Too up tight for it. My opinion.

[Tony]

     These have been some really well thought out and also FELT, posts, everybody using their gut instincts as well as reasoning.
You all agree so much, I feel a little pig-headed and stubborn.  But myprivatejack does concede possible "variations", and manhattengirl
saw the possibility SNIT changed the dynamics to allow what she called "interchangeable roles".  Aintfoolin, however, stays firm, and that
seems to be based on a shrewd looking-over of the two heros.  Especially the reference to Jack's apparently being familiar with that
particular position.
    It's got to be then, what we ourselves see in these two men, which doesn't mean we don't love them equally, only that we have tried our
best to figure them out, each in our own way, as best as we can.  Am not compromising, just to split the difference, but will admit
aintfoolin has me looking at Jack's seductiveness in a new light.  But even with that, still believe Ennis broke through any role-playing,
out of sheer love, and that then they settled down to preferences (and we know what Jack liked) but with occasional variations.  Tony.

[lancecowboy]

     These have been some really well thought out and also FELT, posts, everybody using their gut instincts as well as reasoning.[...]
Ennis broke through any role-playing, out of sheer love, and that then they settled down to preferences (and we know what Jack liked) but with occasional variations.  Tony.

I think gay men and women have the advantage of rising above stereotypes, and beyond traditional role playing, to simply love the other person without pretense. Fun and games spice up the sex life, for sure, but when the roles become obstacles to love, then I would have no hesitation to tear down the barrier.

Domination, as someone pointed out, is part of our Naked Ape heritage. But we can rise about that in our intimate relationships. I think that's what make human love experiences sublime beyond those of animals'. I love this forum because all the diverse views and opinions help me to understand this thing called love.

I can't see Ennis and Jack being pigeon-holed into any one category of husband and wife, dominant or submissive. I think Jack is more capable of expressing his love, and so molded himself around Ennis' rigid frame, like the shirts. The act of lovemaking for them is to please one another. In the scene during the SNIT, after Ennis finally surrendered to his feelings, sitting by the fire for don't know how long, his hunger for Jack's affection surprised even Jack, who proceeded then to take advantage of the situation to become on top, smothering Ennis with loving caress and passionate kisses. I have no doubt Ennis was both top and bottom that night. That's the wonder of gay sex. No limits when there is love.

To me, Ennis and Jack will always be equal, two shirts molded against one another, sometimes blue on white, sometimes white on blue. Hey, isn't that the color of clouds in the sky! Ang Lee, you are a genius, or whoever picked their costumes. (

[jackster]

To me, Ennis and Jack will always be equal, two shirts molded against one another . . .

Well said LC.

I’ve always thought there was more being said here when, early on Jack gripes about sleeping with the sheep and Ennis responds (slightly abridged, brackets mine) . . .

ENNIS:
You wanna switch? I wouldn’t mind [sleepin’ out there.]

JACK:
Happy to switch, but give you warnin’ I can’t [cook] worth a damn.

ENNIS:
Can’t be no worse than me . . . .

Changing roles, Camp Tender (housewife) and Herder (provider). Seems either boy could do either one, and even though maybe they had a preference they were willing to switch roles when the occasion (and their buddy) required. A true partnership.

[manhattangirl]

Changing roles, Camp Tender (housewife) and Herder (provider). Seems either boy could do either one, and even though maybe they had a preference they were willing to switch roles when the occasion (and their buddy) required. A true partnership.

Isn't this at the heart of it all?   To know yourself, your partner, and the need. 

[lancecowboy]

Well said LC.

I’ve always thought there was more being said here when, early on Jack gripes about sleeping with the sheep and Ennis responds (slightly abridged, brackets mine) . . .

ENNIS:
You wanna switch? I wouldn’t mind [sleepin’ out there.]

JACK:
Happy to switch, but give you warnin’ I can’t [cook] worth a damn.

ENNIS:
Can’t be no worse than me . . . .

Changing roles, Camp Tender (housewife) and Herder (provider). Seems either boy could do either one, and even though maybe they had a preference they were willing to switch roles when the occasion (and their buddy) required. A true partnership.

Jackster!  You are right! I don't know if the short story has this, but the wording, phrasing, and the delivery by Heath is perfect! I didn't notice it until you mentioned it! Switch!!!

I love this movie, this forum, and you.

And thinking about this, I recall the slight surprise and hesitation on Jack's face when Ennis said this. It was like, (I though naively), that he was surprised someone would do this for him, then later as I learned Jack planned the seduction on FNIT, that he thought, damn, how can I get the two of us into the same tent if he goes off to the pup tent. Hey, the pup tent smells like cat piss or worse. That should keep him from going out there.

That night when Ennis rode off, Jack said you won't get much sleep out there, he was also saying that he himself won't get much sleep thinking of Ennis, and he watched Ennis riding off with such longing in his eyes. All the while, scheming with the whiskey bottle for that FNIT.

Man, this is so great! I'd never see this if you didn't point out the switch.
 

[aintfoolin]

I thought it more out of Ennis's desire to please Jack. This is what I see as Ennis's concious or unconsious " courtship"  of Jack. Ifeel he felt something was happening, but could'nt quite pinpoint what it was.Only the magnetic sparks that were somehow drawing him to Jack. By SNIT , his feelings were defined and magnified and this time HE was taking the inititive to do something about them. And Jack had not left the Mt, but was there waiting for him to fully embrace those feelings. He was very perceptive and read Ennis well. He had my admiration and my heart. i can see why Ennis fell for him.

One thing for sure is that Jack was having serious problems with Aguirre's rules. Opens up to Ennis about the way he feels about it. Ennis hears { Jack is not happy, in fact, he's downright pissed} He traded, he fixed it for Jack. There are more of these gestures from Ennis throughout their time on Brokeback, leading up to FNIT. It is  at the these times when Ennis showed compaasion for Jack. Never told Jack he tried to get soup , Jack is pissed about dinner, refusing to eat another bean, again, Ennis "fixes it" again by shooting the elk etc...

Not my intention to stereotype anyone here or jack or Ennis. My opinions are based upon my personal perception of the film. I see Ennis  as a conflicted and complicated man.I am enlightened by others perspectives of him and his relation to Jack. To me "role-playing" is mindset. How one sees themself in that "role" determines how they relate to themself and others, including lovers. Wether Ennis "bottomed" is but a small notion in the big picture of the message of this film, but I'll just say that the mind plays a big part in sex of any gender. I always hear sex is better with someone you love. If this is the case, their lovemaking was excellent!  My opinion. Thanks.

[lancecowboy]

I thought it more out of Ennis's desire to please Jack. This is what I see as Ennis's concious or unconsious " courtship"  of Jack. Ifeel he felt something was happening, but could'nt quite pinpoint what it was.Only the magnetic sparks that were somehow drawing him to Jack. By SNIT , his feelings were defined and magnified and this time HE was taking the inititive to do something about them. And Jack had not left the Mt, but was there waiting for him to fully embrace those feelings. He was very perceptive and read Ennis well. He had my admiration and my heart. i can see why Ennis fell for him.

One thing for sure is that Jack was having serious problems with Aguirre's rules. Opens up to Ennis about the way he feels about it. Ennis hears { Jack is not happy, in fact, he's downright pissed} He traded, he fixed it for Jack. There are more of these gestures from Ennis throughout their time on Brokeback, leading up to FNIT. It is  at the these times when Ennis showed compaasion for Jack. Never told Jack he tried to get soup , Jack is pissed about dinner, refusing to eat another bean, again, Ennis "fixes it" again by shooting the elk etc...

Not my intention to stereotype anyone here or jack or Ennis. My opinions are based upon my personal perception of the film. I see Ennis  as a conflicted and complicated man.I am enlightened by others perspectives of him and his relation to Jack. To me "role-playing" is mindset. How one sees themself in that "role" determines how they relate to themself and others, including lovers. Wether Ennis "bottomed" is but a small notion in the big picture of the message of this film, but I'll just say that the mind plays a big part in sex of any gender. I always hear sex is better with someone you love. If this is the case, their lovemaking was excellent!  My opinion. Thanks.

Thanks, aintfooling, for pointing out all the little things Ennis did for Jack. You are so right. Jack wasn't the only one who put an effort into the relationship. Shooting the Elk was probably against the rules, but Ennis did it for Jack. Sleeping out there was not fun, but he did it for Jack. He didn't eat soup, but he got it for Jack. I guess the difference between the two is that Jack actively did something to be with Ennis, seduction, manipulation, driving all those years and distances. But Ennis was the one who gave of himself to make the other "comfortable" as you said. This and along with someone else's post earlier, makes me that that Ennis played more of the feminine role, even though he was the top in FNIT. It is also why he was more devastated at the parting that first summer. Like it or not, guys get over these more easily and don't get physically sick. He was, as you said, in love, but didn't know it or want to admit it. I love those scenes when they were apart in the mountain, one above the other below, and they looked longingly at the other.

And yes, I agree with you that their lovemaking was excellent! Sex is better with love, especially when you can spoon and talk and cuddle and repeat...

[lancecowboy]

This is a interesting exchange. 

IMO:

I find it fascinating how in order to understand a relationship  between Jack and Ennis we put it in a context of submissive role and dominate role.   Ennis because he is the strong silent type, the ideal man of the west.  Jack, the more open of the two, talkative, friendly, the "buddy" type, compared to Ennis, would draw some to think of Ennis as being dominate, and Jack role as being submissive to him.

 Yet underneath the surface one could see some subtleties of their relationship that might draw one to another conclusion on the  dynamics of their relationship.  We see in the first night how Ennis takes Jack, but how much of it was what Jack wanted to happen in just this way?  And the way Jack waited for Ennis the second night, he knew Ennis would come back to him,  Ennis did.   

At end of that first summer, I've read post of how Jack seem almost non caring attitude that they were parting maybe forever, and I think this is a kind of bad rap, he did care, but Ennis plans were Ennis's plans, and that "one shot thing" was just that, for the time being.  For Ennis emotional and physically the parting was too much to handle, he was in love, hurting, and repressed it.

Jack again after four years of separation reaches out again to Ennis, and Ennis sits by the window to wait for him.  With safe guards Ennis needs, Jack returns every year after that the suitor, who returns to be with his love.   

Ennis reassured from then on is content with his lover.   Jack is patient, careful, accommodating and waits  for Ennis to concede to his proposal to live together.    Jack was who he was, not denying his needs, did go elsewhere.  Then there's Randall, no matter how we feel about the introduction of this man into his life.  How different it much have felt to be the the pursued,  to be the one that was reached out for.  And be the one to submit.   I saw Randall as an the who would take the reins on that relationship, (if there was one). 

Anyway I was just wondering if there was another way to look at this.  This just my thoughts. 

Thanks, manhattengirl, for another brilliant analysis. Jack has been the man chasing the Ennis the woman, and Randall was the affair. But he was also the one who brought up the cabin so he was used to be the one in charge, calling the shots. When Jack keeps going off to see Ennis, I'm not sure how he would feel about that. Then when Jack starts to get serious, about Lightning Flat, and all, he might just get nervous enough to call in his buddies to end it. I never liked him from the beginning, and I don't know if the short story or the script planned it that way.

By the way, I don't think Jack didn't care about parting that first summer. He just reacted to it differently. He stole Ennis' shirt! He went back the next summer. He was staring into Ennis with such intensity by the truck, hoping for Ennis to say something, to call off the engagement, but Ennis never did. Jack cried looking back at Ennis in the mirror. He didn't know if Ennis wanted him.  He suffered, but planned on returning that summer. He also mentioned about working at Ligtning Flat that winter, hoping Ennis might want to visit. He put everything out there but Ennis didn't, couldn't return any of it.

Also, the subtle dynamics certainly points to Ennis being the bottom, with Jack calling all the shots. Ennis needs Jack so much physically that after the first night, he may well do whatever Jack wants. It's interesting that the movie always has Ennis' arm warped around Jack when they are sleeping, spooning, but always with Jack holding Ennis when they talk. Just an observation.

[jackster]

. . . . It's interesting that the movie always has Ennis' arm warped around Jack when they are sleeping, spooning, but always with Jack holding Ennis when they talk.

Yeah, I've always liked that touch. Presaged in the SS this way during their last camping trip:

Jack said he was doing all right, but he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies.

The horses nickered in the darkness beyond the fire's circle of light. Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close, said he saw his girls about once a month, Alma, Jr., a shy seventeen year old with his beanpole length, Francine a little live wire. Jack slid his cold hand between Ennis's legs, said he was worried about his boy . . . .


Man I love this, I do wish this type of intimate physical closeness was more graphic in the movie.

[lancecowboy]

Yeah, I've always liked that touch. [...]
Man I love this, I do wish this type of intimate physical closeness was more graphic in the movie.

I love the movie focusing on the love that is a force of nature. Even so, having been in this discussion, I watched the movie paying attention to the sexual scenes more closely, and it seems to me that Ennis was seducing Jack as much as Jack was, but more passively, like washing naked in front of Jack, who by the way, WAS sneaking a peek (notice his eyelashes move just as his cigarette moved a bit). And notice the way he was sitting while eating dinner, not to mention the Hmmm appreciation in the middle of Jack taking a leak. Then he was always teasing Jack about the harmonica, and about rodeo cowboys being a bunch of f#@k ups, followed with that gorgeous grin. If he ain't flirting then I don't know what flirting is. In the end, the SNIT was about Ennis finally accepting what they did was okay, and be open to the love that Jack had to offer.

I am with you on this Jackster that more graphic scenes of the intimate physical closeness between the two would make the love shine through even more. As it were, we only catch glimpses of this bright hot fire. I think that's why we are all with PBS, seeking to find more, yearning for it. As Jack said, it's damn unsatisfactory situation. Never enough time.

[manhattangirl]

Thanks, manhattengirl, for another brilliant analysis. Jack has been the man chasing the Ennis the woman, and Randall was the affair. But he was also the one who brought up the cabin so he was used to be the one in charge, calling the shots. When Jack keeps going off to see Ennis, I'm not sure how he would feel about that. Then when Jack starts to get serious, about Lightning Flat, and all, he might just get nervous enough to call in his buddies to end it. I never liked him from the beginning, and I don't know if the short story or the script planned it that way.

By the way, I don't think Jack didn't care about parting that first summer. He just reacted to it differently. He stole Ennis' shirt! He went back the next summer. He was staring into Ennis with such intensity by the truck, hoping for Ennis to say something, to call off the engagement, but Ennis never did. Jack cried looking back at Ennis in the mirror. He didn't know if Ennis wanted him.  He suffered, but planned on returning that summer. He also mentioned about working at Ligtning Flat that winter, hoping Ennis might want to visit. He put everything out there but Ennis didn't, couldn't return any of it.

Also, the subtle dynamics certainly points to Ennis being the bottom, with Jack calling all the shots. Ennis needs Jack so much physically that after the first night, he may well do whatever Jack wants. It's interesting that the movie always has Ennis' arm warped around Jack when they are sleeping, spooning, but always with Jack holding Ennis when they talk. Just an observation.

In reading your post, another moment crossed by mind, I'm wondering if you pick it up too.   We're use to believing through out this story that  Ennis, like it been stated in this thread may have been a "top", but only on the surface, and maybe we led to believe it, but underneath the surface more was going on.

In the beginning of the film when both were waiting for Aguirre, without words it was shown to us ever so slightly, whose influence would dominate this relationship.  I may be wrong in this assessment, but hear me out. 

I've always wonder why Ennis had that reaction to Jack the first time he sees him.  He's timidly looks away, his head down, shuffling his feet, his hands in his pockets.   These two men, were there for a job, only them standing out there, most men would speak, may even shake hands, introduce themselves, begin a conversation.  Jack sensing Ennis shyness, steps away, this moment might have spark some attraction in Jack in some way. 

Then Jack does the most masculine thing, he shaves, I mean with just water and a razor, how macho is that, but his checks Ennis out, and Ennis hands still in pocket sits quietly and alone, not to be to noticeable.    In Aguirre office check out the body language and how each position themselves in the room, Jack stands in the middle of the floor, leg spread,  upright, and Ennis stands to the side leaning against the wall.  Ennis takes a quick glance at Jack when Aguirre is on the phone, but Jack take a good long look.   Jack was going to have Ennis, the question was when, Ennis felt something but not sure what, but in his actions on Brokeback it  was to please this man.

I don't know,  In this film there is so much room for interpretation if you watch closely at first whose roles were what, at first glance it may look like one thing, but watching it again it may look like something else.  Just a thought.     

[lancecowboy]

In reading your post, another moment crossed by mind, I'm wondering if you pick it up too.   We're use to believing through out this story that  Ennis, like it been stated in this thread may have been a "top", but only on the surface, and maybe we led to believe it, but underneath the surface more was going on.

In the beginning of the film when both were waiting for Aguirre, without words it was shown to us ever so slightly, whose influence would dominate this relationship.  I may be wrong in this assessment, but hear me out. 

I've always wonder why Ennis had that reaction to Jack the first time he sees him.  He's timidly looks away, his head down, shuffling his feet, his hands in his pockets.   These two men, were there for a job, only them standing out there, most men would speak, may even shake hands, introduce themselves, begin a conversation.  Jack sensing Ennis shyness, steps away, this moment might have spark some attraction in Jack in some way. 

Then Jack does the most masculine thing, he shaves, I mean with just water and a razor, how macho is that, but his checks Ennis out, and Ennis hands still in pocket sits quietly and alone, not to be to noticeable.    In Aguirre office check out the body language and how each position themselves in the room, Jack stands in the middle of the floor, leg spread,  upright, and Ennis stands to the side leaning against the wall.  Ennis takes a quick glance at Jack when Aguirre is on the phone, but Jack take a good long look.   Jack was going to have Ennis, the question was when, Ennis felt something but not sure what, but in his actions on Brokeback it  was to please this man.

I don't know,  In this film there is so much room for interpretation if you watch closely at first whose roles were what, at first glance it may look like one thing, but watching it again it may look like something else.  Just a thought.     

Yeah, your analysis is as usual, so brilliant. Thanks, Manhattangirl. I noticed Ennis' shyness and timidity right the way, but was puzzled about Jack's actions until watching it a few more times, and reading other's thoughts on the subject. I noticed Jack's peeking at Ennis in mirror, but never thought of the symbolism of shaving. Just thought that Jack wanted to look good when applying for the job. But silly me, he is working as a cowboy, the five o'clock shadow would probably add to the rugged good looks. No he was shaving for Ennis' benefit, as you said. I can understand how Ennis can be under Jack's control after giving up in SNIT. His way was all or nothing. I had sensed that. Jack also knew this and loved it about him. Jack needed someone who would love him totally unreservedly. Ennis needed someone to draw himself out of his own shell. They were made for each other. I noticed the body language in the trailer, too, but did not understand until your words made perfect sense of the way Ennis try to stay as far away from Jack as possible, by the window, while Jack stood a bit back of Ennis, to admire the view.
Then the way they introduced each other, Ennis stood a step or two lower, allowing the short Jack to tower over him. And on the way to the bar, he followed hang-dog fashion in Jack's swaggering footstep.
I totally agree with you that this movie is so great precisely because it has such layers of detail, different angles of interpretation. It is as real as it gets.
The more I learn from this forum, the more I love this movie. Pretty soon, I will have the whole movie memorized, and join the ranks of BBM recital. It will be the first, and probably only, movie I ever commit entirely to memory, and I am referring to not just the dialogue, but the visual beauty of the many scenes. Not just the sex scenes. Okay, the motels scenes. 

[jackster]

I totally agree with you that this movie is so great precisely because it has such layers of detail, different angles of interpretation. It is as real as it gets.

Both very interesting posts here MHG and LC. I would only add that It's as good as it gets. I agree, and also find this complex and alternating dom/sub – top/bot analysis to be unendingly fascinating. The SS and SP of course set up the basic dynamic here, but I find the acting and interaction here between Heath and Jake to be absolutely par excellence. I do not think the subtle exchanges of these roles would have come off with any other pair of contemporary male actors. Like the characters Ennis & Jack themselves, it seems there was actually something there between Heath & Jake. No not sexual necessarily, but a deeply emotional, maybe subconscious connection that made this pairing work in a truly magical way that comes right across the screen to us. Kismet. How lucky I feel to have had this come to pass in my lifetime.

[lancecowboy]

Both very interesting posts here MHG and LC. I would only add that It's as good as it gets. I agree, and also find this complex and alternating dom/sub – top/bot analysis to be unendingly fascinating. The SS and SP of course set up the basic dynamic here, but I find the acting and interaction here between Heath and Jake to be absolutely par excellence. I do not think the subtle exchanges of these roles would have come off with any other pair of contemporary male actors. Like the characters Ennis & Jack themselves, it seems there was actually something there between Heath & Jake. No not sexual necessarily, but a deeply emotional, maybe subconscious connection that made this pairing work in a truly magical way that comes right across the screen to us. Kismet. How lucky I feel to have had this come to pass in my lifetime.

I can't imagine anyone who love the story and characters as much as they do, not sharing the same love as we do in this forum. I can understand why gay men often mistaken friendly emotional bonding with sexual attraction, because that's what we men do - we are sexual animals first. Women, on the other hand, are emotional first, and sexual after. Even being straight men, Heath and Jake must feel the same charge of emotions that we feel. Being great actors, I am certain they were aware of those feelings, and channeled them into their scenes. That first kiss, that reunion kiss, the SNIT, ... As you said, the movie is as real and as good as it gets.

[Tony]

     Hey, everybody---great posts!!!!  Manhattengirl,  you really have an eye for details that I haven't seen mentioned by others and you
put them together in ways that make me, for one, wonder just how many layers there are to this film.  You are also very open-minded, in
the sense that you are willing to look further past what others have seen.  Am a little shy at responding to your posts but, please know,
every new insight you suggest is having an impact---it's just difficult to respond, because they are so very good, and don't know what to say.
     Jackster and LC, you've brought up Heath and Jake and the chemistry between them.  Have myself always thought the pressure on them
as straight guys would have been enormous.  Despite the fact they are professionals, there is a primitive part to our minds and it must
have been difficult both to kiss and to simulate intercourse.  On the one hand, they could have felt threatened and avoided each other
from there on, or, on the other hand they could have joked and kidded each other and become friends.   They apparently did the second,
so they are very confident in who they are as males.  It is a topic, however, that isn't gone into in friendly forums, mainly because of the
ugly stuff that shows up in tabloids or blog-sites that always turns out to be--garbage.  So, we Brokies usually give them their space.  Even
so, your posts were rightful and you both did so very well to point out- they did it right and we have to wonder-good grief!!!!---what if
other actors had been cast for those roles.
    Finally, came across an interview with Ledger and he DID want to do FNIT a little differently.  Wanted to show a brief, violent reaction,
followed by--acceptance but with rough and tumble.  It's in the Actors section in this forum.  So---FNIT could have been a little different,
if Heath had pursued that.
   Again, great posts---you all are way, way into ever new stuff and that's exploration and that's good.  Jackster--you and LC  create
some new directions so casually, am like---huh?   Do what?    Thanks much from this one Brokie.  Tony.

[aintfoolin]

Is it male/female or who has the power at that moment.  FNIT did Ennis take it, or did Jack offer it.  I doubt it was feminine wiles Jack possessed at that moment, or was it  take me or I will take you, Ennis answered that question.    Did Jack knew Ennis wanted it this way and did he concede at this moment this is how was it going to be from then on, or did SNIT change the dynamic, and Ennis submit to Jack?   Is there roles? Are they interchangeable?   

 

I think Ennis took  it as Jack offering. Maybe in his dazed, drunken state he remembers telling Jack about his lack of " experience" and this is Jack giving him some. The opportunity was not lost.  Jack is the initiator.

The last vestiges of Ennis's resistence was broken down by Jack's excellent seduction. Left Ennis defenseless, His " what're you doin?" He knows the answer before he asks it, Jack is leaving no doubt as to what he's doing. He's also saying what he wants too, which has been heard by more than one poster on another thread.

 I feel Jack is keeping in mind that Ennis has'nt had this " opportunity" before. Ennis is like a *virgin*, but he knows Ennis has feelings for him that constitutes "more than friendship" for him. By the time Jack's belt buckle comes apart, Ennis has come to an understanding ,beyond a shadow of a doubt what was gonna  happen. Jack made no move to initiate a "throw down" on Ennis, tries to kiss him but, Ennis still resists, so instead ,imo let Ennis take the lead , any direction Ennis wanted to go, Jack was going too. Perhaps Ennis thought about this moment many times maybe not, but he did need no instruction books , got the job done and liked it.  I feel it's what Jack and Ennis wanted at that point and it did'nt really matter who took who down, but I think Jack was glad he was Ennis's first real lover...by all means.

I know I'm long here , but I am so  made curious by Ennis's train of thought the morning after.He  is preparing to put some distance between them . He establishes to himself that he not "queer" to Jack of course, but perhaps it was'nt so much about how he felt about himself , but maybe he was also worried how Jack would percieve him after what happened during the night. Sure, he felt funny the next morning, but he was not so botherd that he felt the need to vacate the the tent right away , no , he woke up beside Jack sleeping peacefully, with a very satisfied look on his face!.) Ennis goes off to think about it and maybe even savor what happened  during the course of the day.

 When  he finds Jack has come up to meet him, this must have been  a good  thing for him, Jack not only accepts what they'd done , but let Ennis know what happens on Brokeback, stays on Brokeback. " It's nobody's business but ours"  Perhaps it's what Ennis wanted to hear. It means Jack's does'nt hate him or think he's warped  because of the agressiveness or anything.
 This goes a long way in blowing Ennis's "one shot" reasoning out of the water. This statement goes further in convincing Ennis that he could explore this "thing" without judgements. SNIT is evidence of that. My fav scene in the whole movie ,but  it's among many.

 Instead of going back to tend the sheep that night, he finds himself sitting on a log contemplating going into to Jack again. Shows the effect FNIT with Jack had on Ennis. He had  helped awaken in Ennis ,a part of himself he could'nt, and really did'nt want to deny any longer.  Aguirre's rules? what rules?   My opinion.