Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[Tony]

    Aintfoolin, you really hit on a critical point in time-the morning after.  Looked to me like Ennis woke up, still a little drunk, and a "what the
*&!@)!!#"  attitude.  Then he wouldn't talk to Jack, just setting and cocking his rifle, and essentially, snubbing Jack, and riding off.
But he had time to think about it, and they talked about it, with Jack quiet but defiant-nothing wrong with what they had done. Their
business.  Somehow that led to the very difficult and lonely decision Ennis had to make, sitting there before SNIT.  Like you, SNIT is one
of the best parts of the film, for me.  Manhattengirl said that second event changed the dynamics of everything.  Sure did---Ennis wasn't
horny---he was lonely.  And he had found love past friendship love.  Romantic love.
    Am not sure I see some of the motions and movements the same way you do, but you are right there where the real action is, all the
time, and you do come up with things that went right over my head (like Jack being familiar with that position).  And this go-round, your
focus on the morning after----important territory.  Once again, you are right there.
   Am still new to this forum but have learned a major lesson- to pay attention to anyone who knows what they are talking about and maybe
learn something.  That's hard to do since had formed opinions before reading what you and others have had to say.  But am working on it
and thank you and the others for your patience with newcomers.
    Again, the period from FNIT to SNIT may be where it all happens,---the choices made.  Would fan you with ostrich feathers, for going
there, but suspect that isn't your style and I might get clobbered.  So, just----thanks.   Tony.

[lancecowboy]

I think Ennis took  it as Jack offering. Maybe in his dazed, drunken state he remembers telling Jack about his lack of " experience" and this is Jack giving him some. The opportunity was not lost.  Jack is the initiator.
[...]
 Jack made no move to initiate a "throw down" on Ennis, tries to kiss him but, Ennis still resists, so instead ,imo let Ennis take the lead , any direction Ennis wanted to go, Jack was going too. Perhaps Ennis thought about this moment many times maybe not, but he did need no instruction books , got the job done and liked it.  I feel it's what Jack and Ennis wanted at that point and it did'nt really matter who took who down, but I think Jack was glad he was Ennis's first real lover...by all means.

I know I'm long here , but I am so  made curious by Ennis's train of thought the morning after.He  is preparing to put some distance between them . He establishes to himself that he not "queer" to Jack of course, but perhaps it was'nt so much about how he felt about himself , but maybe he was also worried how Jack would percieve him after what happened during the night. Sure, he felt funny the next morning, but he was not so botherd that he felt the need to vacate the the tent right away , no , he woke up beside Jack sleeping peacefully, with a very satisfied look on his face!.) Ennis goes off to think about it and maybe even savor what happened  during the course of the day.

 When  he finds Jack has come up to meet him, this must have been  a good  thing for him, Jack not only accepts what they'd done , but let Ennis know what happens on Brokeback, stays on Brokeback. " It's nobody's business but ours"  Perhaps it's what Ennis wanted to hear. It means Jack's does'nt hate him or think he's warped  because of the agressiveness or anything.
 This goes a long way in blowing Ennis's "one shot" reasoning out of the water. This statement goes further in convincing Ennis that he could explore this "thing" without judgements. SNIT is evidence of that. My fav scene in the whole movie ,but  it's among many.

 Instead of going back to tend the sheep that night, he finds himself sitting on a log contemplating going into to Jack again. Shows the effect FNIT with Jack had on Ennis. He had  helped awaken in Ennis ,a part of himself he could'nt, and really did'nt want to deny any longer.  Aguirre's rules? what rules?   My opinion.

I agree with you view on the FNIT, with Jack offering himself to Ennis, following Ennis' lead, who knew only the way he'd seen the way horses and sheep have done it. That comment about the coyote with balls the size of apples ain't just idle comment. Jack was smart enough to know that Ennis' first time wasn't about love, about talking. It was pure and simple sex.

The next day, as you pointed out, Ennis woke up next to a happy and content Jack, but was confused and rushed off. Jack knew this and came out, shirt untucked, to re-assure Ennis with their standard joke, beans for supper. I think Ennis was silent and rushed off for multiple reason, but mainly for the shame and confusion not only of doing it, but enjoying. When he came upon the dead sheep, he was reminded of the bloody scene with Earl. In a way, he directed that anger by tracking down the coyote and killing it. That was his way of finding peace and redemption for the "dirty act" the night before. With it out of his system, and certainly Jack would have heard the gun shot, to come up to investigate, he was ready to go through what you described, "one shot  deal" and Jack knew that "nobody's business but ours" was the only way to get Ennis onboard. Even though he knew, later that Aguirre saw them from his binoculars that morning when he came with bad news. He didn't tell Ennis. He was the enabler of Ennis' demons. He could've said, as Manhattangirl suggested, "they are not us, and we are not them." Instead, he went with the easy way to sooth Ennis to go along. This came back to haunt him again and again.

Thanks for all your input in this thread. It made me realize that the master manipulator in the end,  was manipulated by his own inability to change Ennis, and the man who strove so hard to be with integrity performing his duty, ended up failing miserably because he lied to the most important people in his life (including himself), about the most important part of his life.

[Tony]

     Hey, Lancecowboy---just saw your post and was fine until the last paragraph.   Your posts keep getting better and better and have
developed themes and reactions that I haven't seen before, so they are always good reading.  But describing Jack as a "master manipulator",
I dunno----couldn't you soften that a little?  He was seductive, yeah, but even if, from the first, he had hopes of something with Ennis,
isn't that too strong of a word?  It conveys, at least to me, a determination to be sneaky and predatory and only for his own satisfaction.
    A manipulator usually has a conscious, well-thought-out game plan and there is the element of arrogance and deceit.  Yeah, Jack was
up to something-he had found the beginnings of love and fell into the ways of trying to make Ennis admit there was something on his side,
too.  I guess am saying a manipulator is a villain, and this, Jack never was.
    Am not splitting hairs-those words seemed a little harsh.  Everything else you write is sensitive and detailed and shows that you love
our two heroes----any chance you could either develop it or soften it some?
    Am headed for bed, so, if you do reply, I'll have to wait to see whether you re-think this.  Again, some of your posts have really been
developing new insights and you are provoking the same from others.  Give me a break on this, please--I found the words-difficult.  Tony.

[jerasjr]

I tend to agree with Tony - while Jack was not an innocent, cannot conceive of him as a manipulator... given the era, location and lack of depth of their life experiences, it just doesn't track for me...

[lancecowboy]

     Hey, Lancecowboy---just saw your post and was fine until the last paragraph.   Your posts keep getting better and better and have
developed themes and reactions that I haven't seen before, so they are always good reading.  But describing Jack as a "master manipulator",
I dunno----couldn't you soften that a little?  He was seductive, yeah, but even if, from the first, he had hopes of something with Ennis,
isn't that too strong of a word?  It conveys, at least to me, a determination to be sneaky and predatory and only for his own satisfaction.
    A manipulator usually has a conscious, well-thought-out game plan and there is the element of arrogance and deceit.  Yeah, Jack was
up to something-he had found the beginnings of love and fell into the ways of trying to make Ennis admit there was something on his side,
too.  I guess am saying a manipulator is a villain, and this, Jack never was.
    Am not splitting hairs-those words seemed a little harsh.  Everything else you write is sensitive and detailed and shows that you love
our two heroes----any chance you could either develop it or soften it some?
    Am headed for bed, so, if you do reply, I'll have to wait to see whether you re-think this.  Again, some of your posts have really been
developing new insights and you are provoking the same from others.  Give me a break on this, please--I found the words-difficult.  Tony.

Hi, Tony, and jerasjr,

I didn't mean to be harsh, and wouldn't want to be mean. I certainly do not think of Jack as a villain. Not at all. I don't agree with Elma that Jack was nasty or evil. No. To me someone evil or nasty would be someone as you said, arrogant and self-centered, and even in their "helpful" facade, they are manipulating for their own selfish agenda, gaining something in return. Although Jack has that in him, I don't think he was that with Ennis towards the end. I think that is why I said the master manipulator was himself manipulated. I do not mean to belittle Jack, nor think less of him. I only say what, I thought, others have acknowledged, Jack's seductive smile, bright blue eyes, and shrewd understanding of Ennis that made it possible getting his way and roping him (as in the scene at the end of the summer). Jack manipulated Ennis into FNIT, and then SNIT. But in the end, Jack himself fell in love, and the manipulator was manipulated by the force of nature. I was merely pointing out the irony, not being judgmental. I don't see the act of manipulation as being evil, and Jack was never deceptive with Ennis, except in the case of stealing the shirt, and Mexico (until the end when he came clean, even as a ruse to hurt Ennis) and with Randall (even until the end, he hid it, and Ennis was surprised and hurt to hear it from the old man). It is a sign of his love for Ennis that he stopped manipulating him, and allowed himself to be manipulated.

Perhaps we feel differently about my choice of words because we have different definitions of manipulation, and manipulator, along with the associated connotations. I agree with you that someone who is arrogant, self-centered, and deceitful is absolutely despicable. I agree with you that someone who maneuvers others into doing things for selfish agenda, i.e. controling others, coercing others, against their own will, is indeed evil.

However, we all manipulate one another, in an honest and honorable fashion, all the time. Whenever we negotiate for a better price, or ask for a compromise, whenever we need someone to do us a favor, etc. The difference between honorable manipulation, as my meaning of Jack being the master manipulator, and evil manipulative bastards is the fine line between honest persuasion (i.e. compromise for consensus), and deceitful domination (i.e. my way or the high way).

I am willing to find a better and less harsh word to describe or denote the first, if the word manipulation is inappropriate and carries too much connotation for others.

I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings, and bruised anyone's image of Jack, who I adore, not because of his salesmanship, but because of his selfless love for Ennis.

Please, if anyone knows a better word to use, I am open to use it.

[lancecowboy]

[...]
It made me realize that the master manipulator in the end,  was manipulated by his own inability  :^^)to change Ennis, and the man who strove so hard to be with integrity performing his duty, ended up failing miserably because he lied to the most important people in his life (including himself), about the most important part of his life.

I read over my post in question, and realized that I missed a name. Perhaps that is why you felt I was being too harsh. I was referring to Jack only in the first part of the sentence. The second part was referring to Ennis. So I was not saying that Jack was deceptive to others. This is what I meant to say:
[...] It made me realize the double irony in their relationship, that Jack, the master manipulator, in the end was manipulated by his own inability to change Ennis, and Ennis, the man who strove so hard to be with integrity performing his duty, ended up failing miserably because he lied to the most important people in his life (including himself), about the most important part of his life, his love for Jack.

I hope this and my post earlier help to clarify what I meant to say. And that it is less harsh than you thought I said.

  Thank you for being honest with me and call me out on something, in the kindest and gentlest way. I know a lot of what I say has been covered in previous discussion by others (now that I am catching up with the earlier discussions), so thank you for saying that I contribute anything new in my posts. I am already grateful for the patience of the old hands who must have seen it all in the last year and a half. But to me, this is all new and exciting. Every discussion is an exploration into the unknown leading to new territories about myself, my past relationships, and my future expectations and promises. 

[Tony]

    Am sure there is a better word, Lancecowboy, but for the moment it escapes me, and the matter can easily be postponed or forgotten
(unless others weigh in), but--on the subject of manipulation, am I the last person on the block to hear of the "Gay Bomb"?  Now THERE
we have--manipulation.
   Nobody ever calls and tells me anything, so am looking at most popular Yahoo searches and there it is- the Gay Bomb, a project by the
military to use a chemical that would disable enemy armies by making them very horny and also attracted to each other, thus being
non-lethal warfare.  First denials, then confirmations from the Pentagon.
    This is MADNESS!!!! This is sinister manipulation!!!! But, er, what is the chemical and, uh, where could I buy it?  Not that I would use it,
of course (manipulative), just to have some handy in case we are invaded by Lithuanians or somebody.
   And no, this is not off topic.  Well, OK, not too far off-topic. And am not off my medication---AGAIN.  Look it up!!! The world has gone
nuts and they would have BBM affairs EVERYwhere, thus demeaning the unique value of our beloved film.
    The news reports only refer to causing sexual attraction between males- says nothing about inducing better taste in clothing, a longing
for trendy neighborhoods, and wine and cheese parties, so then, how could it be a Gay Bomb?
   REALLY weird, they have been working on chemicals to attract bugs and rodents to soldiers.  Was that the Yankees game where there was
a bizarre swarm of gnats, interrupting the game?
   Lancecowboy, there's manipulation of different kinds-you're right. But put that on hold, please, as I am furious-NObody told me about
the Gay Bomb.  And I live in Norfolk and if the enemy used this on us, there would be naked sailors cavorting in the streets, on nights
other than Navy pay day.  This would bring the city to a standstill. 
   If you think am kidding, do the search on the internet.  No-you probably already knew and,as usual, am left out of the loop.  Thanks a
lot, you guys--I have to find this out from Yahoo Favored Searches and not a single Brokie gave me any warning.  This IS a Brokie issue-
this spray, or chemical would reduce  BBM to a training video for advanced warfare.  And not a peep out of any of you!!!!
  Well, that's all. Lancecowboy, we can return to the subject as you wish.  Myself, I consider real manipulation these bizarre experiments.
And the fact they won't let me in on them, dammit!  Tony.

[aintfoolin]

 Hey L. Cowboy,

If my understanding of Jack manipulating is correct, it is only in the sense of taking opportunities as they presented themselves. I understand /read you  as saying that Jack's ears perked a little when he heard Ennis all but say he was a virgin, the statement about not having had the "oppurtunity" a code word imo for not had sex , and that little hmmmm = Jack assessing the situation. Knows Ennis is way to far gone to attend to the sheep. tries to invite/coax Ennis into the tent where it's warmer.  I saw no coercison,force or sneaky manipulative actions on Jack's part.  The bedroll was big enough. Jack was right about what would happen when the fire died down cuz Ennis was practically an icicle when he woke up "hammering" his teeth together! Jack is awake, perhaps thinking that maybe Ennis wants to join him, but is afraid of his feelins and being that close to Jack in a bedroll,  well...there maybe ...shall I say "effects" in that close proximity.

 But Ennis was also flirting with Jack as he did a number of times throughout their stay on Brokeback, and Jack knew Ennis had some feelings of a romantic nature for him. In this way, you could say Ennis is manipulating Jack. It's harmless opportunity and nothing more. Check out the looks Ennis gives in this scenes leading up to FNIT. Is this flirting or what?  It's very subtle at times , yet it's there.

 Why DID Jack have to coax Ennis out of the cold into he tent anyway? ? Perhaps he was afraid of what he felt might happen imo. Yeah, he's drunk, but asked Jack for an extra blanket. He is making a concious decision to stay outside the tent.

 Jack had to initiate this, Ennis was not going to, but perhaps wanted to. This was Jack's opportunity to give Ennis just a little "prompting" , a mind to ultimately reach Ennis in the most intimate way possible. So far I've seen Jack do nothing wrong, nothing in a  pre-meditated, evil, destructive way. He simply made the most out of what was presented to him by fate or Ennis himself. Perhaps he read an "offer" in what Ennis spoke of earlier. In any case, He took the risk of his gut feeling about Ennis.  He was correct . Once Ennis became a WILLING participant, the walls came down. The words manipulation/manipulate certainly has connotations, but in this case, only in the context of "oppotunity". Something much deeper was happening between them. Jack, the master at making something out of nothing wanted to express his feeling and wanted Ennis to be the one to express them with.
Opportunity knocked, Jack answered ,and Ennis walked in....freely. My take..

Tony,

 It would'nt surprise me  what our so called "leaders" pull on us anymore, although "naked sailors, dancing in the street" could be considered as "necessary collateral damage" in my book, everything else seems to be these days!  but anyway being former military myself, this does not suprise me concerning some of the things our government spends our tax money on. Yeah, talk about "manipulation" in the most worst way. A Gay bomb? are you kidding me? what the hell  is going on? Calm down,and take a deep breath, but don't hold it waitng for them to regain some sense of intelligent thinking. I'm sure there's more idiocy to come. All I can say is VOTE AMERICA,VOTE!!!

[lancecowboy]

Hey L. Cowboy,

If my understanding of Jack manipulating is correct, it is only in the sense of taking opportunities as they presented themselves. I understand /read you  as saying that Jack's ears perked a little when he heard Ennis all but say he was a virgin, the statement about not having had the "oppurtunity" a code word imo for not had sex , and that little hmmmm = Jack assessing the situation. Knows Ennis is way to far gone to attend to the sheep. tries to invite/coax Ennis into the tent where it's warmer.  I saw no coercison,force or sneaky manipulative actions on Jack's part.  The bedroll was big enough. Jack was right about what would happen when the fire died down cuz Ennis was practically an icicle when he woke up "hammering" his teeth together! Jack is awake, perhaps thinking that maybe Ennis wants to join him, but is afraid of his feelins and being that close to Jack in a bedroll,  well...there maybe ...shall I say "effects" in that close proximity.

 But Ennis was also flirting with Jack as he did a number of times throughout their stay on Brokeback, and Jack knew Ennis had some feelings of a romantic nature for him. In this way, you could say Ennis is manipulating Jack. It's harmless opportunity and nothing more. Check out the looks Ennis gives in this scenes leading up to FNIT. Is this flirting or what?  It's very subtle at times , yet it's there.

 Why DID Jack have to coax Ennis out of the cold into he tent anyway? ? Perhaps he was afraid of what he felt might happen imo. Yeah, he's drunk, but asked Jack for an extra blanket. He is making a concious decision to stay outside the tent.

 Jack had to initiate this, Ennis was not going to, but perhaps wanted to. This was Jack's opportunity to give Ennis just a little "prompting" , a mind to ultimately reach Ennis in the most intimate way possible. So far I've seen Jack do nothing wrong, nothing in a  pre-meditated, evil, destructive way. He simply made the most out of what was presented to him by fate or Ennis himself. Perhaps he read an "offer" in what Ennis spoke of earlier. In any case, He took the risk of his gut feeling about Ennis.  He was correct . Once Ennis became a WILLING participant, the walls came down. The words manipulation/manipulate certainly has connotations, but in this case, only in the context of "oppotunity". Something much deeper was happening between them. Jack, the master at making something out of nothing wanted to express his feeling and wanted Ennis to be the one to express them with.
Opportunity knocked, Jack answered ,and Ennis walked in....freely. My take..

Hi, aintfooling, Tony,

I agree that manipulator is a strong word, in the sense that it is associated with being manipulative, which has the much nastier connotation. And as Tony said, a better word is hard to find at the moment:

from online dictionaries:
1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a: to manage or utilize skillfully b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose
1.   to manage or influence skillfully, esp. in an unfair manner: to manipulate people's feelings.
2.   to handle, manage, or use, esp. with skill, in some process of treatment or performance: to manipulate a large tractor.
3.   to adapt or change (accounts, figures, etc.) to suit one's purpose or advantage.

And from the thesaurus:
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/manipulative
   artful, canny, careful, cautious, chary, circumspect, considerate, contriving, crafty, cunning, designing, devious, discreet, gingerly, guarded, guileful, intelligent, manipulative, politic, premeditating, safe, scheming, sharp, shrewd, sly, wary, wily

I am happy to replace the word manipulative with any one of the words cunning, scheming, or shrewd. However, it would detract from the irony of the manipulator being manipulated by the force of nature. Because in the end, that's what Jack said, "the short leash that you kept me on". He "felt" this so the relationship was in trouble.

I agree with aintfooling that Jack did not manipulate Ennis' feelings, only adapted to the situation to create FNIT. And Ennis was a willing participant, with the help of the whiskey of course, to make the tent scene inevitable. When you mix two lonely cowboys with a bottle of whiskey, put them in a small warm tent on a cold isolated mountain top, FNIT is just a natural consequence.

Is it predatory? NO! Is it unfair? NO! Is it selfish? Well...there must be at least a bit of self-serving interest on Jack's part. Let's be honest, he didn't do it just for Ennis. But that's neither wrong nor bad. It is simply his love for Ennis. He took the opportunity to allow Ennis to act on the same feelings in return. It is what made them as a couple complementary. Jack worked to make the relationship happen; Ennis worked to make Jack love him, with all the little things he did. Was that manipulative on Ennis' part? NO!

So, yes, I won't call Jack manipulative (except in the context of the irony of being manipulated by the force of nature) but instead refer to his shrewd assessment of their situation and his cunning arrangement of opportunities to make FNIT the beginning of their new chapter.

I don't know...I guess I am still confused by other demons in my own past that made the seduction by Jack of Ennis an issue, not of Jack, but the seduction itself.

As someone else said, Heath originally wanted the response by Ennis to be more violent and confrontational in FNIT. I think that would convey his own inner turmoil as well as his seeing through Jack's seduction, and saying, "don't try to manipulate me, let me come to this on my own." To me, Jack's most endearing quality is his patience with Ennis, waiting for the slow and steady to catch up with his own dreams and schemes, as in SNIT. The tragedy is that Ennis almost arrived at the gate of the little cow and calf operation when Jack died.

The tender scenes of Jack nursing little lambs in the mountain, carrying them across the river, caring for them, or just caressing one on horseback, show the same nurturing Jack who comforts Ennis whenever he is down. I think the tears and pain in the last scene is to mourn the passing of the best of these two characters, that will never come when their relationship ends. Soul-mates bring out the best in each other, and transform each others' faults by the power of love, as Ennis was transformed at the end, with Jack forever inside him.

  Ennis+Jack

Thanks again for calling me on this, in your kind and gentle way.

[manhattangirl]

I think Ennis took  it as Jack offering. Maybe in his dazed, drunken state he remembers telling Jack about his lack of " experience" and this is Jack giving him some. The opportunity was not lost.  Jack is the initiator.

The last vestiges of Ennis's resistence was broken down by Jack's excellent seduction. Left Ennis defenseless, His " what're you doin?" He knows the answer before he asks it, Jack is leaving no doubt as to what he's doing. He's also saying what he wants too, which has been heard by more than one poster on another thread.

 I feel Jack is keeping in mind that Ennis has'nt had this " opportunity" before. Ennis is like a *virgin*, but he knows Ennis has feelings for him that constitutes "more than friendship" for him. By the time Jack's belt buckle comes apart, Ennis has come to an understanding ,beyond a shadow of a doubt what was gonna  happen. Jack made no move to initiate a "throw down" on Ennis, tries to kiss him but, Ennis still resists, so instead ,imo let Ennis take the lead , any direction Ennis wanted to go, Jack was going too. Perhaps Ennis thought about this moment many times maybe not, but he did need no instruction books , got the job done and liked it.  I feel it's what Jack and Ennis wanted at that point and it did'nt really matter who took who down, but I think Jack was glad he was Ennis's first real lover...by all means.

I know I'm long here , but I am so  made curious by Ennis's train of thought the morning after.He  is preparing to put some distance between them . He establishes to himself that he not "queer" to Jack of course, but perhaps it was'nt so much about how he felt about himself , but maybe he was also worried how Jack would percieve him after what happened during the night. Sure, he felt funny the next morning, but he was not so botherd that he felt the need to vacate the the tent right away , no , he woke up beside Jack sleeping peacefully, with a very satisfied look on his face!.) Ennis goes off to think about it and maybe even savor what happened  during the course of the day.

 When  he finds Jack has come up to meet him, this must have been  a good  thing for him, Jack not only accepts what they'd done , but let Ennis know what happens on Brokeback, stays on Brokeback. " It's nobody's business but ours"  Perhaps it's what Ennis wanted to hear. It means Jack's does'nt hate him or think he's warped  because of the agressiveness or anything.
 This goes a long way in blowing Ennis's "one shot" reasoning out of the water. This statement goes further in convincing Ennis that he could explore this "thing" without judgements. SNIT is evidence of that. My fav scene in the whole movie ,but  it's among many.

 Instead of going back to tend the sheep that night, he finds himself sitting on a log contemplating going into to Jack again. Shows the effect FNIT with Jack had on Ennis. He had  helped awaken in Ennis ,a part of himself he could'nt, and really did'nt want to deny any longer.  Aguirre's rules? what rules?   My opinion.

IMO:

"I'm really not that kind of girl" mentality, as far as Ennis thinking was concerned, (sorry, but it just reminds me of that kind of thinking),   It may be harsh, and I'm not trying to be funny.  Just pointing out the beginning of the split in Ennis's reality which throughout their relationship caused him and Jack their greatest pain, and which culuminates in the "boys like you" remark he hits Jack with in the final confrontation.

Ennis could and would never deny himself Jack.  After the FNIT, this man, and the sex is what he wanted, and will have again, but how could he reconcile himself with the idea of being with him, and not feeling he was "queer".   This is totally an "Ennis Thing", Jack was caught up in the wake of his struggle.  I mean, who was he telling this to, the man who's arms he's in later passionately kissing, or really to himself.

Just my take on it.

[lancecowboy]

IMO:

"I'm really not that kind of girl" [...] "boys like you" remark he hits Jack with in the final confrontation.

Ennis could and would never deny himself Jack.  After the FNIT, this man, and the sex is what he wanted, and will have again, but how could he reconcile himself with the idea of being with him, and not feeling he was "queer".   This is totally an "Ennis Thing", Jack was caught up in the wake of his struggle.  I mean, who was he telling this to, the man who's arms he's in later passionately kissing, or really to himself.

Just my take on it.

Thanks, Manhattangirl, I always respect your take, which is more preceptive than mine. I was puzzled by Ennis' "boys like you" comment, but just chalked it up to his being angry. Your point is right on. He didn't want to be one of the "boys like you", and "I'm really not that kind of girl" is exactly what he said, "I ain't queer". Jack was caught up in the struggle because Jack loved Ennis, faults and all. If it means saying "me, neither" and going along with "ain't nobody's business but our own" then so be it. The rope that bound Ennis to Jack, also bound Jack to Ennis. When Ennis tried to throw off the lasso the first time, and "walk away", Jack caught him again by his feet. That's when they got into the rough and tumble. I think, if Ennis did not get a bloody nose, they would've done it right then and there for a "last time". Things would have turned out different, then. The bloody shirts were symbolic of more than just their love for each other, but how cruel life can be, when circumstances can turn on a dime, or a rope, and change the outcome for a long time. In this case, forever. :\'(

There are soooo many places I'd like to change the story, to make the two feel better. But that would change the movie, and like the song says in The Dance, I wouldn't change a thing, because then I'd miss the movie, exactly the way it is, from the lonely winding mountain road in the beginning, with Ennis jumping off holding a paperbag, and the very end, with the two shirts, coming from Lighting Flat on a winding dusty road in a paperbag, hanging in a closet next to the picture of their favorite place. Every nuance in the movie is made with love, and received with love.

[jerasjr]

Having grown up in that era, and  in an infinitely more "sophisticated" locale than Wyoming - it does not seem feasible to me that Jack manipulated Ennis.  If that is so, then Ennis is every bit as manipulative as Jack with his restricted attitude.  I see Jack as reactive, maybe even proactive, for without Jack there would be no story and no film.  He was the one who moved the action forward, not Ennis.

[jerasjr]

I guess in thinking about it, maybe I have a simplistic attitude, but we were given a simple story with simple characters and that is where I am taking my cue from.  To ascribe much more than was presented to us is to impose our own attitudes and foibles.

[lancecowboy]

I guess in thinking about, maybe I have a simplistic attitude, but we were given a simple story with simple characters and that is where I am taking my cue from.  To ascribe much more than was presented to us is to impose our own attitudes and foibles.

You are so right, Jim. The movie is certainly open to interpretation, and I am guilty of reacting to the seduction of Ennis by Jack in a way that reflects my own past experiences. That's what I love about this movie, and this forum. It, and here, serve as mirrors to reflect on the parts of me, or my life, that laid hidden for so long. It, and here, give me the opportunities to understand what confused me for so long. "You can't seduced the willing." That's what Jack did. And Ennis, although tortured by his own inner demons was blessed to have a soul-mate so patient and kind to wait for him for twenty years.

I am sorry if my own confusion got anyone upset. Imagine how upset I have been all these years!  Thanks for all your discussions here and in other threads. You cannot possibly imagine how much your questions and insight have been helping me to sort out everything.

Thank you is just not enough.

[jerasjr]

At times among the Wolves, we talk about being on a journey, and how grateful we are for the companions that we have here.  You have brought about a good discussion with many points of view and that is what we are here for to continue on the journey of understanding that Jack & Ennis have sent us on.

[jerasjr]

I guess in thinking about it, maybe I have a simplistic attitude, but we were given a simple story with simple characters and that is where I am taking my cue from.  To ascribe much more than was presented to us is to impose our own attitudes and foibles.

And I am as guilty of that in my thoughts about Ennis, so it evens out...

[lancecowboy]

At times among the Wolves, we talk about being on a journey, and how grateful we are for the companions that we have here.  You have brought about a good discussion with many points of view and that is what we are here for to continue on the journey of understanding that Jack & Ennis have sent us on.

I could not have said it better. It's nice to be on a journey with companions from here. Like Ennis and Jack, riding back to pasture after the sheep scattered in the ice storm. Even the harmonica sounded good, and our occasional disagreement serves to strength our understanding.

[jackster]

Ennis could and would never deny himself Jack. After the FNIT, this man, and the sex is what he wanted, and will have again, but how could he reconcile himself with the idea of being with him, and not feeling he was "queer". . . .

You're absolutely right here MHG. A basic theme of the story, as AP had Ennis lay it out in the motel scene:

"You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was_? I know I ain't.
I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women,
yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin
it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."

Here he is, just after having sex with this man, yet he still can't believe it. Then goes on to admit that his real fantasy the last four years has been Jack and having sex with Jack. Alma and the girls notwithstanding. I doesn't seem that other males enter into the picture, but Jack sure did the trick for him. Jack and only Jack, maybe this is why he could see himself as "not queer".

[Tony]

     Ahem.  Overnight, the Gay Bomb has crept up to the #5 position in Yahoo searches.  Brokies, this is serious business!!! Lancecowboy, this is no time
for rambling through the dictionary for another word for manipulation.  And am severely disappointed in the responses here which drifted back
immediately to Jack's seductive smiles and dreamy blue eyes.  And also in our leadership, which, instead of going to war-alert and heading for
the bunkers, continues to munch on crab legs in Maryland.
    You can be CERTAIN, if we have this nefarious chemical, so, too, do our enemies.  This is an outrage!  Sex-starved homosexually inclined
straight soldiers making their way through our streets, ravishing  everyone in their path.  Well, I think if America is taking an interest, we, too
should do our part!
    We will fight them on the beaches.  We will put up barricades around our antique shops, discos, and personal-care product stores!
And if the Brokie empire lasts for a thousand years, men will still say--this was their finest hour (apologies to Winston Churchill for these
slight modifications to his speech to the free world)!!!!
    I can see it even now, enemy troops grimly studying FNIT scenes as they prepare for the invasion.  And do they care about the nuances
of emotional commitment and who lured whom and whether manipulation is too harsh a word?  Yeah--right.  This is it, Brokies, and what
are you doing? Sipping martinis this early?  I repeat-do the web search-the rest of the nation is ahead of you on this one.
   If I get into trouble over this one, nothing new there.  To the barricades, Brokies!!!!  As always, much love---Tony.

[lancecowboy]

You're absolutely right here MHG. A basic theme of the story, as AP had Ennis lay it out in the motel scene:

"You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was_? I know I ain't.
I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women,
yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin
it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."

Here he is, just after having sex with this man, yet he still can't believe it. Then goes on to admit that his real fantasy the last four years has been Jack and having sex with Jack. Alma and the girls notwithstanding. I doesn't seem that other males enter into the picture, but Jack sure did the trick for him. Jack and only Jack, maybe this is why he could see himself as "not queer".

Thanks, Jackster. This explains a lot more for me about Ennis.

[Tony]

     OK---am back on my medication again, have taken off the pith helmet and am not patrolling the beaches.  Please forgive my occasional
eccentricities.
     Jackster, these quotes you give are always a way to bring us back home to the way so much is suggested in so few words.  Which leaves
us with the author's gift- we can put some part of ourselves into the story and see things no others can see.  What you have seen is
always a new focus, and I, for one, think your focus is clear and true.
     Jerasjr--those were great posts and noticed you use few words, but get your point across.  Must be a habit you got from living in the
west.
     Hope everybody continues to break new ground, as these are very, very strong insights into this great love story.  Myself, am taking
a deep breath (as aintfoolin suggested) and backing off, before am sent to my room for misbehaving.  Tony.

[aintfoolin]

How about those sex scenes that WERE'NT shown. The reunion scene/motel one and the one that apparently that happened on the last trip. Well. We did'nt see this but there are "clues" that this was a marathon session. They both seemed to enjoy smoking those cigarettes together, and those of us who smoke know this ritual all too well. Jack's hair remains in place but Ennis? What in the world....?

[keren_b]

Yes, thank you, Tony, for bringing up these insightful questions. I also wondered about their relationship. I don't see their roles in the traditional dom-sub pattern because I think they are both complex characters with different needs and issues. I agree that Ennis has trouble being affectionate not only with women but also with any other men. It is why Jack is the love of his life. Jack is the only outlet for all his passion. That's why the SNIT, he sat by the fire for so long, (and wasn't Jack wonderful, just waiting half-naked with a grin on his face) before going shyly with a hat in hand. If Jack did not open up Ennis, the man would have gone through life without passion in his relationships. Once he opened up, after the initial awkward/sublime kiss that transformed him, the rest of the scene was about how much he craved the touching, the coming together of two souls. He needed someone to chase away the loneliness of his childhood. No one else saw it or could do anything about it. Jack felt it the first time they met. Jack loved him for it. I think Jack is masculine and dominant in a normal relationship, as seen in his marriage, and even with the father-in-law. He put up with the abuse for a long time, until finally he put his foot down, and felt like it was orgasm the way he was breathing so hard. With Ennis, however, I think he was willing to submit, for Ennis' sake. But when Ennis needed it, he could be the top, like in SNIT, when Ennis became the little boy who needed to be held, to be loved. It's also why the scenes in the hotel room are always with Ennis cradled in Jack's arms. And the shirts are symbolic of that, too.

Ennis is probably like most men, too uptight about their masculinity to be the bottom, but would enjoy it with Jack, if they don't talk about it or make a big case about it.

Just my two cents worth.

What a fascinating thread - I've just discovered it and I'm going through it, so forgive me for taking you back a little. Lancecowboy, I loved this post and I think you've hit the nail on the head in these parts I bolded, you describe it so beautifully.

I wouldn't change FNIT or SNIT. FNIT kept close to the ss and portrayed what happened exactly the way Annie Proulx has described it. And SNIT, although it wasn't in the ss, was perfect IMO. I thought their acting was wonderful, especially Heath was just amazing - you could feel his anxiety when he stepped in, he was so lost. Could hardly look Jack in the eye. And then that kiss seemed to have melt something in him, and from there it was just like you described - he craved the touching and totally surrendered himself to Jack. The expression on his face was amazing, beyond words. While FNIT was all about pent-up passion and sex, SNIT to me was all about love and feelings and surrender. I wouldn't change a thing about it.

I think your observations about Jack were very insightful, how he was willing to submit to Ennis but also knew when to take charge and take care of Ennis. Ennis was very masculine, but sometimes he was indeed like a little child and then Jack had to take the lead.

I wish the motel scene had stayed more faithful to the ss - they said such meaningful things there. Ennis admitting to fantasising about Jack all those years, and telling him how he almost threw up when they parted four years ago. This is something I would change, add to the conversation. But I adore the way Ennis strokes Jack's arm, and the way Jack nuzzles Ennis's hair. I'd like to see more of this tenderness when they were older, too.

[jackster]

. . The reunion scene/motel one . . . . Jack's hair remains in place but Ennis? What in the world....?

In a post-BBM interview Heath remarked that he had "bedroom hair". Presumably meaning it always looks out of place, maybe's why he seems to prefer short crops. IMO I like the "bedroom" version, looks like somebody's been messin' it with his hands!      You bet.

[jerasjr]

This thread is hitting some important points, and expanding our own thoughts about our own conceptions, and that is important - there are no prevailing attitudes, but rather explorations into each others thoughts - it may not change our minds but we will consider other options...

[manhattangirl]

This thread is hitting some important points, and expanding our own thoughts about our own conceptions, and that is important - there are no prevailing attitudes, but rather explorations into each others thoughts - it may not change our minds but we will consider other options...

That's the beauty of it.   

[lancecowboy]

     OK---am back on my medication again, have taken off the pith helmet and am not patrolling the beaches.  Please forgive my occasional
eccentricities.
[...]     Hope everybody continues to break new ground, as these are very, very strong insights into this great love story.  Myself, am taking
a deep breath (as aintfoolin suggested) and backing off, before am sent to my room for misbehaving.  Tony.

No worries, Tony. I doubt you are any more eccentric than me, and I was the one who threw around a word for the effect of irony, when I should be more mindful of others' opinions, especially of Jack.
 

[aintfoolin]

There are many scenes in the film where they are silent and the eyes do all the talking for them. SNIT was very good example of it. without embellishing, we , as viewers can imagine what is going on in their heads.  Even speak verbally to it. How many of us had * converations* with our TVs yelled at the screen etc...?  It is the passion and emotion in them that brings out the passion and emotion in us. Indivdually, we laughed, cried, got angry  and found joy in their moments. Through this forum, we are blessed to have a place to express those opinions as we interpret what we percieved  to be and what  we felt. There are differences in these "perceptions" and interpretations, based on our own experiencs  past and present. Those who can relate to the events or circumstances in the film in some form or fashion can  respectfully appreciate others views as it relates to Jack and Ennis. It's what makes the forum essential for us. MHO.

[aintfoolin]

In a post-BBM interview Heath remarked that he had "bedroom hair". Presumably meaning it always looks out of place, maybe's why he seems to prefer short crops. IMO I like the "bedroom" version, looks like somebody's been messin' it with his hands!      You bet.

  Thanks Jackster for that bit of information about Heath and his hair. Bedroom hair,  or short hair I love Heath, period....For those  of us who have long distance relationships  and marriages can relate to this .  Letters, postcards and phone calls are lovely, but does not replace having your love right there in your arms to hold and feel as Jack did Ennis and v/v.  The way Jack says " Four years, Damn" and nuzzles into Ennis's face... everytime I see it ...well, all I can say is .. indeed Damn.  ;)The thoughts this scene  conjures up cannot be expressed on the forum,  but I'll suffice to say that it must've been the hottest action in Riverton that night! Would I change it? no, but I would have liked to have seen more. Ennis seemed very sleepy and relaxed. Jack does too, and he likes to talk. They both savored the moment.  Doesn't Jack talk Ennis into contacting home and telling Alma he'd be late...by a coupla days or something?  Gawd !, I must read the SS again  real soon.  Sigh.... My thoughts.

[manhattangirl]

Let me know if I'm off track here, but there was one thing that always bothered me.

In the motel scene when Jack confided to Ennis that he didn't think they would get back in this again, then said he " Oh yes I did, I redlined couldn't get there fast enough", he asked Ennis, "what about you",  did Ennis lie or actually believe, when he said, "I don't know".  That one line made me take pity on Ennis. 

Every action he took when he saw Jack again ran contray to his words.  Jack was barely out of the truck, words were hardly exchanged when Ennis slams against the wall and kisses so passionately. The look of possessiveness he had when looking at Jack, as they left Alma in the doorway.   Laying in Jack's arms after making love, this was so right for him, this who he was and Jack was the only one that made him feel this way, he made love for real for the first time in four years.

The one thing I believe Ennis knew when he wrote "you bet" on that postcard was that they were going back to that again, and that he wanted to.