Author Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?  (Read 435188 times)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #90 on: Oct 08, 2007, 09:38 AM »
What a fascinating thread - I've just discovered it and I'm going through it, so forgive me for taking you back a little. Lancecowboy, I loved this post and I think you've hit the nail on the head in these parts I bolded, you describe it so beautifully.

I wouldn't change FNIT or SNIT. FNIT kept close to the ss and portrayed what happened exactly the way Annie Proulx has described it. And SNIT, although it wasn't in the ss, was perfect IMO. I thought their acting was wonderful, especially Heath was just amazing - you could feel his anxiety when he stepped in, he was so lost. Could hardly look Jack in the eye. And then that kiss seemed to have melt something in him, and from there it was just like you described - he craved the touching and totally surrendered himself to Jack. The expression on his face was amazing, beyond words. While FNIT was all about pent-up passion and sex, SNIT to me was all about love and feelings and surrender. I wouldn't change a thing about it.

I think your observations about Jack were very insightful, how he was willing to submit to Ennis but also knew when to take charge and take care of Ennis. Ennis was very masculine, but sometimes he was indeed like a little child and then Jack had to take the lead.

I wish the motel scene had stayed more faithful to the ss - they said such meaningful things there. Ennis admitting to fantasising about Jack all those years, and telling him how he almost threw up when they parted four years ago. This is something I would change, add to the conversation. But I adore the way Ennis strokes Jack's arm, and the way Jack nuzzles Ennis's hair. I'd like to see more of this tenderness when they were older, too.
Hi, Keren, I am glad you found this thread. It's good for me to go back and see what I've written. Sometimes I react to the posts, from my gut, and not realize how much of myself I put out there. I also wish Ennis had the opportunity to speak the passage about not wanting any other man but think of Jack hundreds of times. It makes his love for Jack clearer and more defined. It would, IMO, also make Ennis' confusion appear more powerful. Anyone in that situation, and yet not able to return to Jack those constant little proposals and confessions of love, "can hardly stand it" "like this, always"...

Yes, I wish there were more tenderness in their old scenes, too. The arm Ennis always has over Jack in the tent, and the arm of Jack that he strokes constantly in their conversation, the embrace in their younger days when Jack felt asleep standing up by the fire,... I would love for Jack to do in their scene talking about Earl to:
[Jack finishing saying ...like this, always]
[Ennis slides closer to Jack, sitting almost next to him, instead across the fire facing Jack and relate the story about Earl...]
Jack: You'd SEEN this?
[Ennis relates about his father...]
[Jack reaches out to caress Ennis, stroking his ear, his hair...]
[Ennis breaks down sobbing...]
[Jack moves to behind Ennis, wraps his arms around him, pulls Ennis to his bosom and cradles Ennis in his arms]
[Ennis grabs Jacks arm and held it like his old teddy bear, his security blanket, a tower of strength, and cried into the sleeve]
[All the while, Jack strokes Ennis softly, with his other hand, from his hair, his ear, his face...whispering...it's okay....we are not them...they are not us...that won't happen to us...you will see...]
[with each caress from Jack, Ennis responds with more sobbing...physically trembling...has no words to say...has so much to say]
[Jack gently rocks, in time with Ennis' trembling, moving until the man becomes calm and quiet.]
[with tears still stream down his face, Ennis turned and kiss Jack with a force like their reunion, with a longing that shocked Jack. The lovemaking was as passionate as their first time in the tent, and as tender as their second night. It went on...and on...]

Sorry, I got carried away thinking how I would have them carry out that scene.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Tony

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #91 on: Oct 08, 2007, 10:07 AM »
     Lancecowboy, thanks for letting me off the hook for my eccentricities-that was very decent of you.  On another thread, I went into personal
troubles, which a few of you may have read and, here, I would like to explain myself, cover some of that again, and then return to the topic.
    Last year, I did experience severe harrassment from the feds after the Ariel Weinmann spy case, here in Norfolk.  I did meet the guy in a
bizarre encounter, lasting 1/2 hour, during one of my exercise walks near the Naval Base, only I met him 3 days before the alleged date of arrest.
  Worse, I have a Russian studies background and was very close to the Glen Souther spy case, also here in Norfolk.  In some ways, my life
as I had known it was destroyed, last year, and under the pounding by the feds, psychological waterboarding, the only way I could survive was
by developing my already absurd sense of humor.  That is why I sometimes post stuff that is a little whacky--it's inappropriate here, but it is
how I kept my sanity (assuming I did keep my sanity).  I hope that explains the extremes in my sense of humor.
     As to the Weinmann case, itself, it will never be broken because he downloaded something big and something small, and ran.  The big was
that we spy on our allies through advanced computer technology, and he was furious about that.  But the something small was that NCIS
and the local police had been, essentially, committing hate crimes against gays during the time period of 1970-1990.  And they also had dirty
files on U.S. citizens (Weinmann was charged with stealing--"confidential biographies").
    I was in those files and spoke to the FBI last year, who conceded an interest, admitted a file on me, but said I had been cleared and to
resume my walks.  But the harrassment continued and I have had to review my entire life and that led me to the evidence of hate crimes.
    But back to BBM, in reviewing my life, to see why I had been considered a security risk, also reviewed everything, just everything, and no
person should have to do that because you find out too much about yourself.  And I remembered that I had been loved deeply by several
women and....several straight guys.  Yup--straight guys.  Whatever it was I had back then, I sure don't have it now-but those guys did love
me, were straight, and two of them told their wives to accept it.  When I say straight-I mean straight- they had, like Ennis, zero interest
in other men. Zero.  So that would explain why i do keep seeing Ennis, not as repressed gay, but as a very lonely straight guy, who found one
person who could understand him, and so that was who he loved.
    Brokies, please forgive this post---please.  But we bring to this forum who we are.  And if by exposing myself as being too different and
maybe really not playing with a full deck-that's fine.  But my sense of humor, maybe offensive to some, and BBM, itself, helped me survive
a year that should not have happened.  And remembering those straight guys who fell in love with me, and who I basically rejected,
lets me know---love can happen in the strangest ways and I was a fool, for there are no lovers for me now. Still, I understand Ennis from
the point of view of those men, and you will always see that in my posts.
    This is an awful morning for me, because am talking about myself, which we shouldn't do, exposing myself to ridicule, because of my tale
of troubles with the feds , and am hurting because every time I remember those that offered love-like Ennis-I put them off.
   OK, it's also bad because I have to go to the dentist.  At any rate, have tried to cover a bunch of stuff, my off-beat posts, what I bring
with me to the forum, having been mentally battered, and also the different perspective of unusual love that can show up in real life,
just as it did in BBM.  I have hoped you guys would accept me and so far, you have.  If this rambling post undermines that, oh well.....
We are who we are.  I will try to stay directly on topic, from here on-just, sometimes, the hurts bust loose.   Tony.

 


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #92 on: Oct 08, 2007, 10:23 AM »
Let me know if I'm off track here, but there was one thing that always bothered me.

In the motel scene when Jack confided to Ennis that he didn't think they would get back in this again, then said he " Oh yes I did, I redlined couldn't get there fast enough", he asked Ennis, "what about you",  did Ennis lie or actually believe, when he said, "I don't know".  That one line made me take pity on Ennis. 

Every action he took when he saw Jack again ran contray to his words.  Jack was barely out of the truck, words were hardly exchanged when Ennis slams against the wall and kisses so passionately. The look of possessiveness he had when looking at Jack, as they left Alma in the doorway.   Laying in Jack's arms after making love, this was so right for him, this who he was and Jack was the only one that made him feel this way, he made love for real for the first time in four years.

The one thing I believe Ennis knew when he wrote "you bet" on that postcard was that they were going back to that again, and that he wanted to.
   
 

In the motel room Jack is *fishing* imo. He has just laid out his  own life to Ennis since "63" when he last saw him. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge. They are both in sham marriages with kids involved.  IMO, Jack wants to know in light of Ennis's reaction to his arrival what Ennis;s story is. I believe he is asking Ennis how his life has gone in 4 years... and mine's screwed up ,how's yours? Jack has learned his lesson. Ennis's reaction? " I don't know" . I don't think he really did  not know at this point. He loves Jack, but at the same time does'nt want to hurt Alma or his girls. Has a strong sense of respnsibility for them and certainly does'nt want to hurt Jack or loose him ever again.
 Remember HE created this mess, and knows it now especially since Jack has returned., he made his  bed and is now lying it it no doubt. Sees no way out without some one getting destroyed.  Obviously he felt trapped .  Alma made the decision for him by divorcing him. One obstacle is undone for them, but it is Ennis and his demons within that prove harder to convince.
Anyway, Jack laid one *slammin * kiss on Ennis in retrun. You just know he was feeling unspeakable joy over the unexpected  reception he got from Ennis.  The look in his eyes told the story. This is the reaction he came seeking...on a wing and and a prayer and alotta hope. Over the years he lost the hope * he did once* have.
 For once I would have liked to hear Jack say , in response to Ennis's question: You got a better idea? Yeah Ennis, stop playing hide and seek  with yourself and maybe we'll get somewhere. My take.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #93 on: Oct 08, 2007, 11:43 AM »
Let me know if I'm off track here, but there was one thing that always bothered me.

In the motel scene when Jack confided to Ennis that he didn't think they would get back in this again, then said he " Oh yes I did, I redlined couldn't get there fast enough", he asked Ennis, "what about you",  did Ennis lie or actually believe, when he said, "I don't know".  That one line made me take pity on Ennis. 

Every action he took when he saw Jack again ran contray to his words.  Jack was barely out of the truck, words were hardly exchanged when Ennis slams against the wall and kisses so passionately. The look of possessiveness he had when looking at Jack, as they left Alma in the doorway.   Laying in Jack's arms after making love, this was so right for him, this who he was and Jack was the only one that made him feel this way, he made love for real for the first time in four years.

The one thing I believe Ennis knew when he wrote "you bet" on that postcard was that they were going back to that again, and that he wanted to.
   
 

In the motel room Jack is *fishing* imo. He has just laid out his  own life to Ennis since "63" when he last saw him. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge. They are both in sham marriages with kids involved.  IMO, Jack wants to know in light of Ennis's reaction to his arrival what Ennis;s story is. I believe he is asking Ennis how his life has gone in 4 years... and mine's screwed up ,how's yours? Jack has learned his lesson. Ennis's reaction? " I don't know" . I don't think he really did  not know at this point. He loves Jack, but at the same time does'nt want to hurt Alma or his girls. Has a strong sense of respnsibility for them and certainly does'nt want to hurt Jack or loose him ever again.
 Remember HE created this mess, and knows it now especially since Jack has returned., he made his  bed and is now lying it it no doubt. Sees no way out without some one getting destroyed.  Obviously he felt trapped .  Alma made the decision for him by divorcing him. One obstacle is undone for them, but it is Ennis and his demons within that prove harder to convince.
Anyway, Jack laid one *slammin * kiss on Ennis in retrun. You just know he was feeling unspeakable joy over the unexpected  reception he got from Ennis.  The look in his eyes told the story. This is the reaction he came seeking...on a wing and and a prayer and alotta hope. Over the years he lost the hope * he did once* have.
 For once I would have liked to hear Jack say , in response to Ennis's question: You got a better idea? Yeah Ennis, stop playing hide and seek  with yourself and maybe we'll get somewhere. My take.

Thanks for quoting Manhattengirl, aintfooling. I can't believe I missed it!

I will always remember that scene, after Jack asked Ennis, "how about you?" That question was so gentle yet so passionate after his own revelation of the last four years. And then when Ennis' responded with a non-commital "I don't know" with little stroking of his arm, Jack said those immortal words, "Brokeback got use good" and Ennis agreed with some more grunts and stroking. When Jack whispered "what are we going to do now?"  And I can still hear Ennis' response, not just the "nothing we can do" but the intensity in the way he said, "I'm stuck here" ..."ain't got time for anything else except for making a living."

In a way, he was telling Jack that he feels the same as him, but he can not change no matter how much he wanted to. He was powerless, return to the same story about can't fix it so got to stand it.

And Jack, having experienced that amazing re-union kiss, and the sex ;) can't imagine doing anything but to stand it. He didn't expect to stand it for twenty years, but his love for Ennis was strong.

Yes, I notice how Jack became older and slouch more than Ennis, who stayed almost a young and vibrant cowboy, while Jack grew tired-looking, not just from his office job, but more likely from his losing hope with Ennis. When he finally stood up to Ennis and put his foot down, it came out all wrong because it was twenty years of resentment and frustration come exploding out. Ennis couldn't know all the hurt and disappointment, from the scene after the divorce, to the many times when Ennis couldn't get away. There was never enough time... If Jack had only waited a little longer, staying celibate for Ennis, no matter how bad it gets.  :\'( They'd have their cow and calf operation in Lightning Flat, and a CW resort for city slickers like us to visit and learn their cowboy ways.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline keren_b

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #94 on: Oct 08, 2007, 12:55 PM »
Tony, thank you for sharing your story with us and explaining where you come from  :ghug:.

You might want to share your personal experiences on a thread called "How has BBM changed your view on life?" where you can also find some fascinating life-stories. Here is the link to it:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=7306.0

Speaking as a mod I can say that your intentions to stay on topic are very much appreciated  ^f^. You started a wonderful thread here and a very interesting discussion, and personally I'd love to hear more opinions. So indeed, lets try and stay on topic. Thank you for all the thoughts you share with us.

The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.

Offline Tony

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #95 on: Oct 08, 2007, 02:36 PM »
    Ummmmm, keren-b, thanks for the cool assessment---I think I've shared enough.  With love, Tony.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #96 on: Oct 08, 2007, 06:56 PM »
     Lancecowboy, thanks for letting me off the hook for my eccentricities-that was very decent of you.  On another thread, I went into personal
troubles, which a few of you may have read and, here, I would like to explain myself, cover some of that again, and then return to the topic.
[...]
    Brokies, please forgive this post---please.  But we bring to this forum who we are.
[...]
  I have hoped you guys would accept me and so far, you have.  If this rambling post undermines that, oh well.....
We are who we are.  I will try to stay directly on topic, from here on-just, sometimes, the hurts bust loose.   Tony.
Hi, Tony, everything you said about being decent, being accepted, exposing a little of ourselves in this forum through our rambling, I have been there, done that, guilty as charged. And I am always amazed and grateful each and every time I find someone from this forum who is as you said, decent, accepting, and warm in their embrace of my eccentricities and rambling. I can only do what I treasure so much, in the little bit that I can. I don't know how to related to the stories that you tell, because I have had no experience in those situations. I hope you will continue to feel that you are welcome to post your thoughts and feelings. And no worries, mate, when the hurts bust loose, just let the words flow with the tears. Someone will catch them and make sense of them. Just don't expect them to be the way you want them. Sometimes, life's journey bring us unexpected gifts. We might miss these if we keep looking for only the gifts that we want.
With warm hugs,  :ghug: :^^) <^(
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Tony

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #97 on: Oct 08, 2007, 09:19 PM »
     Lancecowboy, thanks for the warm hugs--they were needed.  I might add, with reference to your speaking of your own hurts, from time-to-
time, have noticed a lot of personal growth in you since your first posts and also accelerating ability to communicate-keep going strong, friend.
But you're still not getting the Justin Timberlake morph pill from me (wink,wink)!
     Well, anyway, keren-b says we are doing well here and that's always good news from a moderator. I wonder if I would be going astray by
bringing up the question of Ennis' sex drive.  Oh, yeah, he gets it on (tousled hair as evidence) but remember Jack's complaint?  "I'm not like
you, Ennis, I can't survive off of a few high-altitude @%!!!!*'s a year!"
    Does this mean Ennis has a low sex drive, or that he has a limited need for male-to-male sex, or could it mean he likes sex with Jack but
the relationship of love, even at long distance, is what keeps him going? Is the answer in the can't-accept-he's-gay majority opinion, or is
there something more this is telling us?  Any chance that love comes first, he likes the sex, but b asically uses it to keep Jack happy?
Or as Jack puts it, to keep him on a leash?  In other words, I'll keep having sex with you, but what I really want is love, even if from a
distance?
    Anybody?

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #98 on: Oct 09, 2007, 12:09 AM »
     Lancecowboy, thanks for the warm hugs--they were needed.  I might add, with reference to your speaking of your own hurts, from time-to-
time, have noticed a lot of personal growth in you since your first posts and also accelerating ability to communicate-keep going strong, friend.
But you're still not getting the Justin Timberlake morph pill from me (wink,wink)!
     Well, anyway, keren-b says we are doing well here and that's always good news from a moderator. I wonder if I would be going astray by
bringing up the question of Ennis' sex drive.  Oh, yeah, he gets it on (tousled hair as evidence) but remember Jack's complaint?  "I'm not like
you, Ennis, I can't survive off of a few high-altitude @%!!!!*'s a year!"
    Does this mean Ennis has a low sex drive, or that he has a limited need for male-to-male sex, or could it mean he likes sex with Jack but
the relationship of love, even at long distance, is what keeps him going? Is the answer in the can't-accept-he's-gay majority opinion, or is
there something more this is telling us?  Any chance that love comes first, he likes the sex, but b asically uses it to keep Jack happy?
Or as Jack puts it, to keep him on a leash?  In other words, I'll keep having sex with you, but what I really want is love, even if from a
distance?
    Anybody?
Hi, Tony, thanks for the kind words. I never thought in terms of personal growth and accelerating ability to communicate. However, I appreciate your observation because friends are like mirrors, and you are showing me something that I needed to see. I feel that the last two weeks in this forum has definitely helped me see the movie, and myself in a much clearer light. Perhaps that is the reason for the change in me. I knew the movie was life-changing. I am glad that what I feel within is beginning to take shape.  :ghug: :^^) Everyone here in EnnisJack is responsible for all the transformation that has happened to me in the past couple weeks.

Your question about Ennis' sex drive is an interesting one, because I was also puzzled by Jack's comment, regarding high attitude f@#$. It seems to me that this is more evidence that Ennis is the top naturally, and prefers the male role, even though he is willing to switch to please Jack. His liaisons with Elma, then Cassie satisfied his libido and the quarterly meeting with Jack satisfied his need for man-to-man love. I doubt if he is any less desperate for Jack than Jack was for him. It is just that Ennis is used to holding it all in, just got to stand it. Ennis loved only one man, Jack. There was no substitute. His sex drive can be satisfied with Elma and Cassie. Jack, on the other hand, was gay and needed man-to-man sex (not just the love that Ennis craved). He was attracted to anyone who reminded him of Ennis, Jimbo the rodeo clown, the tall Mexican, the reticent Randall. His libido is certainly greater than Ennis' need for love. He is also more impulsive and following his gut. When he feels something, he follows it up with action.

I don't know if your scenario of Ennis using sex to control Jack is something that is consistent with Ennis' character. We are talking about a man who is without guile. If there is any kind of leash, it is Jack's own - his love or lust for Ennis. With Ennis, it was love, and emotions, and the sex was part of lovemaking, the caressing, the gentle embrace. With Jack, I don't know, the movie didn't show enough to be definitive about it. I will just have to get the short story to learn more. It would seem to me that Jack lusted after Ennis physically, and can hardly stand it. Ennis on the other hand loved Jack, but can stand holding back, living a drab weary life, getting angry when he missed Jack too much. So I think their need for each other is probably equal in intensity, but perhaps slightly different in quality.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

manhattangirl

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #99 on: Oct 09, 2007, 05:53 AM »
What is Ennis views on sex?   IMO:  We kind got clues on that.   He said to Alma ,  "if you don't want to have any more of my kids I'd be happy to leave you alone." He said to  Cassie, "I guess I wasn't much fun anyways".   He said to Jack "All those things I don't know, could get you killed if I ever come to know them". 


Ennis is complicated, yes, but can we draw anything from what he says and how he acts towards the three people that are close in his life, and from that know who he really is?

Just a thought.   



Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #100 on: Oct 09, 2007, 08:35 AM »
What is Ennis views on sex?   IMO:  We kind got clues on that.   He said to Alma ,  "if you don't want to have any more of my kids I'd be happy to leave you alone." He said to  Cassie, "I guess I wasn't much fun anyways".   He said to Jack "All those things I don't know, could get you killed if I ever come to know them". 

Ennis is complicated, yes, but can we draw anything from what he says and how he acts towards the three people that are close in his life, and from that know who he really is?

Just a thought.   
Right, his libido is under control, like his other emotions, all wound up tight inside. He let it out in one passionate moment, or in a angry fight. He loved Jack, that is for certain. From the short story passage, he also fantasized about their sex. But he is more in control, looking to rein it in.

Jack, on the other hand, is the impulsive one who always act on his feelings. I don't think it is a matter of their libido, but how they express it. When Jack told Ennis, in their last scene, that sometimes he missed him so much, that I can hardly stand it. You have NO idea! That's when Ennis visibly broke down, unfortunately just as Jack turned his back. Ennis felt just as much, but kept it in. The bubbling excitement during their reunion is a reflection of what he felt, needed from Jack. Even Jack was surprised at the intensity.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

manhattangirl

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #101 on: Oct 09, 2007, 09:27 AM »
Right, his libido is under control, like his other emotions, all wound up tight inside. He let it out in one passionate moment, or in a angry fight. He loved Jack, that is for certain. From the short story passage, he also fantasized about their sex. But he is more in control, looking to rein it in.

Jack, on the other hand, is the impulsive one who always act on his feelings. I don't think it is a matter of their libido, but how they express it. When Jack told Ennis, in their last scene, that sometimes he missed him so much, that I can hardly stand it. You have NO idea! That's when Ennis visibly broke down, unfortunately just as Jack turned his back. Ennis felt just as much, but kept it in. The bubbling excitement during their reunion is a reflection of what he felt, needed from Jack. Even Jack was surprised at the intensity.


Isn't that just Ennis,  Look at his reaction to situations, violence, passion, and all controlled.    Could this be what draws Jack to him?   The reunion, the motel, four years of pent-up need, and to have Jack again the one person who understood him.  63' wasn't  just a "summer thing". 


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #102 on: Oct 09, 2007, 09:33 AM »
Isn't that just Ennis,  Look at his reaction to situations, violence, passion, and all controlled.    Could this be what draws Jack to him?   The reunion, the motel, four years of pent-up need, and to have Jack again the one person who understood him.  63' wasn't  just a "summer thing". 

yup. it was a love thing. I can feel the stomach heaving when he missed Jack so much. He got so angry that he would pick a fight just to get the feelings out. To be understood.

Three more little words..."I get you." That's what Jack tells Ennis and Ennis tells Jack, every time they get together, and share...
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Tony

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #103 on: Oct 09, 2007, 09:36 AM »
     THEY'VE LANDED!!!! THE GAY BOMB HAS BEEN USED!!!!  Saw it on t.v.---they have war helmets, skin-tight uniforms!!!  They are doing
ritual groin-to-groin bumping, bending over in lewd poses, fanny-patting, talking about dominating, tight ends, and are even going to show
diagrams of penetration!!!!

     never mind.  sunday night football.

         Manhattengirl, thank you for answering by extending the issue of Ennis' sexuality, his sex drive, to the two women in his life.  To get
to some understanding of him and Jack, we really do have to look at Alma and Cassie.  IMO, despite the scene where Alma is flipped over
and grimaces, she seemed to be expecting some really good lovin' of the usual kind, which suggests Ennis was a good lover.  He certainly
was sensual with her in the earlier part of those scenes and she was definitely aroused.  I"ve always thought he flipped her over because
she touched his raw nerve-talking about his loneliness.  She traded him for a wimp and, looks to me, like she always regretted that part
of the trade-off.
     As far as Cassie, everybody repeats her saying "girls don't fall in love with fun".  But that was in response to Ennis saying he wasn't much
fun, along the lines of conversation abilities.  Remember how provocative and sensual she was, getting Ennis to rub her feet (and looks to me
like he did a good job of it).  Cassie does not seem to be someone who would accept a wimpy lover, and, once again, it looks like Ennis could
satisfy a woman very, very well, to the point they never forgot him.
    So then, to Jack.  Clearly, Jack is extremely sensual in nature, and Ennis---satisfied HIM, (sorry, aintfoolin-still think that was in a variety
of ways), so ---he had a sex drive and ability.
    Manhattengirl, could we make that the starting point, or not?  And if so, how could he be satisfied with twice a year with Jack? His
greatest love?  Again, am I out of line by suggesting the sex was good between them, but the defining problem was that Ennis wanted
love much more than he wanted sex?  Because he was a lusty dude, loved Jack above all others, and yet internalized this affair, keeping
Jack with him even when separated (which was most of the time).  Was the tragedy the imbalance?     Tony.

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #104 on: Oct 09, 2007, 10:10 AM »
Thanks all for your thoughts and propositions.

Perhaps to change some of the sex scenes would be tantamount to changing the way the author and the director sought to portray the psychology of the protagonists.

In the case of Ennis, the sexual ambivalence is marked out quite clearly in many of the scenes, particularly in the FNIT and SNIT.  And as for the scenes with Alma and his remarks regarding having his kids, perhaps we should note that there is a lot of (misplaced?) "pride" -- i.e., his role vis-a-vis his insecure position as bread winner and head of the household.

I think the key to many of the sex scenes involving Ennis can be understood in terms of his innate insecurity, and his way of masking all this with a veneer of seemingly being the one who calls the shots.

In the scene about having his kids, Alma clearly understood the physchology behind his challenge, and turned the tables squarely against him.




Offline Tony

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #105 on: Oct 09, 2007, 11:12 AM »
      tpe, the idea that discussing changing the sex scenes would challenge what the writers and directors sought to portray, is baffling, to me.
Mainly because they left for us sufficient vagueness  to challenge us to be more than an audience, but to enter into the experience
ourselves-in other words THEY were not definitive and maybe that was a deliberate gift from them.  Heath Ledger said he hoped the film
raised more questions than it answered.  Meaning, we should ask questions.
    In most cases, there's the screenplay, the director's concept, and the actor's interpretations and that's all you get- take it or leave it.
But part of BBM being a great work of art is that- they let us come INTO the film, ourselves, thereby greatly expanding the usual formula.
Ang Lee and the screenplay writers chose to have actions that often defied immediate explanations.  The actors followed through, with
their own playing to contradictions.  I really believe they gave us a GIFT---saying, don't just watch this, but come into this.
    And we did.  And we have post-BBM syndrome from that, maybe, because we took them up on it.   At any rate, this thread isn't challenging
the film so much as taking them up on their offer- to enter the film itself and to ask questions.  They gave us a gift, tpe, and we are still
unwrapping it.
   By the way, welcome back from the gathering in Maryland---your posts were missed.  But I hope all of you moderators will continue to let
us explore.  In another forum, they actually shut down and locked a thread because it was active and provoking many opinions (the subject
was-can you be masculine and gay).  Talk about an irony-BBM was meant to let us be free, and that forum shut down--freedom of thought.
   Here, the moderators have been tolerant and I hope that will ever be the case.  We missed you tpe--again-welcome back!!!!

Offline jerasjr

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #106 on: Oct 09, 2007, 12:56 PM »
I might suggest that the sex scenes were vague and unformed because our boys were vague and unformed in regards to each other at that moment in time.  Initial sexual encounters are not transcendental (unless you are terrifiacally lucky), and I might say that as time passed they did become more intimate, caring and satisfactory as the boys came to know each other in an intimaate and caring way.  And those scenes can be the product of our imagination.
"A mountain with a wolf on it stands a little taller."

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #107 on: Oct 09, 2007, 03:38 PM »
      tpe, the idea that discussing changing the sex scenes would challenge what the writers and directors sought to portray, is baffling, to me.
Mainly because they left for us sufficient vagueness  to challenge us to be more than an audience, but to enter into the experience
ourselves-in other words THEY were not definitive and maybe that was a deliberate gift from them.  Heath Ledger said he hoped the film
raised more questions than it answered.  Meaning, we should ask questions.
    In most cases, there's the screenplay, the director's concept, and the actor's interpretations and that's all you get- take it or leave it.
But part of BBM being a great work of art is that- they let us come INTO the film, ourselves, thereby greatly expanding the usual formula.
Ang Lee and the screenplay writers chose to have actions that often defied immediate explanations.  The actors followed through, with
their own playing to contradictions.  I really believe they gave us a GIFT---saying, don't just watch this, but come into this.
    And we did.  And we have post-BBM syndrome from that, maybe, because we took them up on it.   At any rate, this thread isn't challenging
the film so much as taking them up on their offer- to enter the film itself and to ask questions.  They gave us a gift, tpe, and we are still
unwrapping it.
   By the way, welcome back from the gathering in Maryland---your posts were missed.  But I hope all of you moderators will continue to let
us explore.  In another forum, they actually shut down and locked a thread because it was active and provoking many opinions (the subject
was-can you be masculine and gay).  Talk about an irony-BBM was meant to let us be free, and that forum shut down--freedom of thought.
   Here, the moderators have been tolerant and I hope that will ever be the case.  We missed you tpe--again-welcome back!!!!


I sort of think of it this way, Tony: perhaps the restraint (overly restarined, perhaps?) in some of the sex scenes was a way of highlighting a part of Ennis's character that was emotionally "confined".  Ennis appeared clumsy at best in the two tent scenes -- a clumsiness that bespeaks reticence and perhaps even guilt. 

So, even though some of the scenes could have been more explicit, the suggestiveness in the scenes were probably more effective (and less problematic) in bringing out what they wanted to come out in Ennis's charatcer.  I hope this makes sense...

OT:  thanks Tony!  It's good to be back!


Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #108 on: Oct 09, 2007, 03:40 PM »
I might suggest that the sex scenes were vague and unformed because our boys were vague and unformed in regards to each other at that moment in time.  Initial sexual encounters are not transcendental (unless you are terrifiacally lucky), and I might say that as time passed they did become more intimate, caring and satisfactory as the boys came to know each other in an intimaate and caring way.  And those scenes can be the product of our imagination.

I think this is another way of putting what I was trying to say in my previous post.  Thanks, jerasjr!


manhattangirl

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #109 on: Oct 10, 2007, 12:56 AM »
    THEY'VE LANDED!!!! THE GAY BOMB HAS BEEN USED!!!!  Saw it on t.v.---they have war helmets, skin-tight uniforms!!!  They are doing
ritual groin-to-groin bumping, bending over in lewd poses, fanny-patting, talking about dominating, tight ends, and are even going to show
diagrams of penetration!!!!

     never mind.  sunday night football.

         Manhattengirl, thank you for answering by extending the issue of Ennis' sexuality, his sex drive, to the two women in his life.  To get
to some understanding of him and Jack, we really do have to look at Alma and Cassie.  IMO, despite the scene where Alma is flipped over
and grimaces, she seemed to be expecting some really good lovin' of the usual kind, which suggests Ennis was a good lover.  He certainly
was sensual with her in the earlier part of those scenes and she was definitely aroused.  I"ve always thought he flipped her over because
she touched his raw nerve-talking about his loneliness.  She traded him for a wimp and, looks to me, like she always regretted that part
of the trade-off.
     As far as Cassie, everybody repeats her saying "girls don't fall in love with fun".  But that was in response to Ennis saying he wasn't much
fun, along the lines of conversation abilities.  Remember how provocative and sensual she was, getting Ennis to rub her feet (and looks to me
like he did a good job of it).  Cassie does not seem to be someone who would accept a wimpy lover, and, once again, it looks like Ennis could
satisfy a woman very, very well, to the point they never forgot him.
    So then, to Jack.  Clearly, Jack is extremely sensual in nature, and Ennis---satisfied HIM, (sorry, aintfoolin-still think that was in a variety
of ways), so ---he had a sex drive and ability.
    Manhattengirl, could we make that the starting point, or not?  And if so, how could he be satisfied with twice a year with Jack? His
greatest love?  Again, am I out of line by suggesting the sex was good between them, but the defining problem was that Ennis wanted
love much more than he wanted sex?  Because he was a lusty dude, loved Jack above all others, and yet internalized this affair, keeping
Jack with him even when separated (which was most of the time).  Was the tragedy the imbalance?     Tony.


Tony,

Your're right.   Ennis is lovable, the women in his life shows us that he was capable of being loved, and  Alma and Cassie endured great pain because of their love for him. These two woman openly and honestly loved Ennis, and Ennis tried to be what each woman needed, it wasn't' their fault Ennis was who he was.   There was no fault on Ennis's part, how could it be, he was who he was, he tried to play by rules taught to him.  Their need was far beyond what Ennis could fulfill, and both woman never got past their own expectation to even scracth the surface of who this man was. 

His attachment to Jack, the love and the need was natural, and part of him, how it must have felt to finally connect with someone in ways he never did with anyone else.  But too bad for Jack,  Ennis's  environment is what made him, the little "field trip" his father took him on was the nail in the coffin of Ennis's trust in his feeling, and the ability to develop who he was.  Sure he was able to go long period of time without seeing Jack, with the belief that this is the only way he could protect the most important thing in his life.  Ennis sacrifice his needs and who he was in order to keep what he loved most ,  Jack. 

So Tony, this is my take I hope you understood what I'm saying, and I hope  I'm not sounding feeble, I know it's kind of long,  what you said is on target, Ennis sacrifice his entire life to protect himself and Jack, and it was based entirely on love, and with some kind of bargin with the demons that haunted him, he could not live his life with his Jack, or risk losing what  he did have, but settled to be with him every once in a while out in the middle of no where.

Was that an imbalance or a trade off?   

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #110 on: Oct 10, 2007, 01:58 AM »
Tony,

Your're right.   Ennis is lovable, the women in his life shows us that he was capable of being loved, and  Alma and Cassie endured great pain because of their love for him. These two woman openly and honestly loved Ennis, and Ennis tried to be what each woman needed, it wasn't' their fault Ennis was who he was.   There was no fault on Ennis's part, how could it be, he was who he was, he tried to play by rules taught to him.  Their need was far beyond what Ennis could fulfill, and both woman never got past their own expectation to even scracth the surface of who this man was. 

His attachment to Jack, the love and the need was natural, and part of him, how it must have felt to finally connect with someone in ways he never did with anyone else.  But too bad for Jack,  Ennis's  environment is what made him, the little "field trip" his father took him on was the nail in the coffin of Ennis's trust in his feeling, and the ability to develop who he was.  Sure he was able to go long period of time without seeing Jack, with the belief that this is the only way he could protect the most important thing in his life.  Ennis sacrifice his needs and who he was in order to keep what he loved most ,  Jack. 

So Tony, this is my take I hope you understood what I'm saying, and I hope  I'm not sounding feeble, I know it's kind of long,  what you said is on target, Ennis sacrifice his entire life to protect himself and Jack, and it was based entirely on love, and with some kind of bargin with the demons that haunted him, he could not live his life with his Jack, or risk losing what  he did have, but settled to be with him every once in a while out in the middle of no where.

Was that an imbalance or a trade off?   

 (:) manhattangirl, I am in awe. You are so right that Ennis is capable of great love with whoever he was with, but the love of his life was Jack, and being who he was, character+environment, he was willing to sacrifice his life, his happiness, to ensure Jack's life, Jack's happiness. He was happy to snatch momentary bliss for himself. This is the same sacrificial love that mothers routinely give to their children, husbands and wives do for each other. He was protecting Jack. And yet, he failed. The movie is tragic on many levels. But this failure in sacrificial love must be the most painful of all.   :(
 (:)  manhattangirl, my hat's off to you.  <^(
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Tony

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #111 on: Oct 10, 2007, 03:18 AM »
      Jerasjr, your seeing the vagueness as due to first sexual experiences being clumsy from inexperience is, of course, right.  But had meant
vagueness as part of what I have begun to think was a deliberate effort to get us to walk up and into the film and be a part of it.  I think you
went there in your final sentence.  We were left to read things in, as we saw fit.
     Am trying to learn Spanish, lately.  Maybe I should drop that and study jerasjr-ese, meaning, the ability to say a lot in a few words.  Can't
seem to get the hang of it.  Will keep trying.

     Manhattengirl, if you got it down to imbalance or trade-off, looks like trade-off, considering what you wrote before.

     Lance, you have continued to develop that recurring theme, each of our heroes being parental, or protective to the other, which is one of
the strongest new insights have seen, since finding this forum.

     But nobody is really tackling, dead-on, how Ennis could be content with two boingings a year.  Which was Jack's biggest complaint.
Maybe am the only one really puzzled so it's unfair to stay there.  Young hearts, please run free and dump this  question and go where
your instincts say to go.  Isn't that big of a deal, anyway- just wondered what you thought, that's all.     Tony.



Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #112 on: Oct 10, 2007, 05:00 AM »
    THEY'VE LANDED!!!! THE GAY BOMB HAS BEEN USED!!!!  Saw it on t.v.---they have war helmets, skin-tight uniforms!!!  They are doing
ritual groin-to-groin bumping, bending over in lewd poses, fanny-patting, talking about dominating, tight ends, and are even going to show
diagrams of penetration!!!!

     never mind.  sunday night football.

         Manhattengirl, thank you for answering by extending the issue of Ennis' sexuality, his sex drive, to the two women in his life.  To get
to some understanding of him and Jack, we really do have to look at Alma and Cassie.  IMO, despite the scene where Alma is flipped over
and grimaces, she seemed to be expecting some really good lovin' of the usual kind, which suggests Ennis was a good lover.  He certainly
was sensual with her in the earlier part of those scenes and she was definitely aroused.  I"ve always thought he flipped her over because
she touched his raw nerve-talking about his loneliness.  She traded him for a wimp and, looks to me, like she always regretted that part
of the trade-off.
     As far as Cassie, everybody repeats her saying "girls don't fall in love with fun".  But that was in response to Ennis saying he wasn't much
fun, along the lines of conversation abilities.  Remember how provocative and sensual she was, getting Ennis to rub her feet (and looks to me
like he did a good job of it).  Cassie does not seem to be someone who would accept a wimpy lover, and, once again, it looks like Ennis could
satisfy a woman very, very well, to the point they never forgot him.
    So then, to Jack.  Clearly, Jack is extremely sensual in nature, and Ennis---satisfied HIM, (sorry, aintfoolin-still think that was in a variety
of ways), so ---he had a sex drive and ability.
    Manhattengirl, could we make that the starting point, or not?  And if so, how could he be satisfied with twice a year with Jack? His
greatest love?  Again, am I out of line by suggesting the sex was good between them, but the defining problem was that Ennis wanted
love much more than he wanted sex?  Because he was a lusty dude, loved Jack above all others, and yet internalized this affair, keeping
Jack with him even when separated (which was most of the time).  Was the tragedy the imbalance?     Tony.


  Well, the backfield's is definitly in motion and it looks like somebody's gonna score!!! What channel are YOU watching football on? ;D :*( I'd kinda like to tune that In)...LOL

Ennis's sex life. My fav subject. Ennis has a quiet, unspoiled charm  which is a asset toward attracting women as well as like Jack, men too. He's so sexy cool with the cowboy hat pulled down low, a shy smile to melt anybody's heart, and in the case in FNIT speed it up. Either he's very good or too gulble the latter I think not. For a while Ennis was having his cake, and eating it too. He is the only one in the film who beds his wife ,lover, and girlfriend. The good thing is , he's very choosy. Those few sex partners that he *let in* all found him suitable to settle down with and have  a life with him.

Each sexual relationship he had ,satisfied a need or purpose for him outside of Jack though Jack was the purpose, imo.  Alma nor Cassie had any idea what kind of man they were falling in love with. Didin't talk much, so did'nt express himself well, but that, they could live with. responsible and orderly, he was,and good with children. Can be an ornery challenge to anybody, but inside was a very caring,thoughtful,loving  person.

But he had a secret. A secret longing for another man. A need for Jack. Not just the sex, but whatever makes up Jack. Physically, emotionally ,and mentally, Jack has become part of who he is. and he is a part of Jack. They are bonded together , almost as one, melded.  He was very possessive toward Jackand went into a jealous rage over Jack's business in Mexico. To feel this close to some one, the sex life with Jack for him must have been mindblowing! ( I am thinking of the passage in the SS, where he "wrung it out" , thinking  about it. ( "but it's nuthin  like this" )   ( sex with women) I imagine there ,alot of care to please each other+ Ennis is on a journey of discovery, and Jack probably made it fun and playful with him  once they found a comfortable place with each other. . never saw it with Alma. I think he felt most alive in Jack's arms.

Yeah I think his sex drive was lower than Jack's  when they were apart, , but when the time came to be with Jack, I imagine even  Jack had a hard time keeping up! Just my opinion.

« Last Edit: Oct 10, 2007, 07:14 AM by tpe »
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

manhattangirl

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #113 on: Oct 10, 2007, 05:47 AM »
     But nobody is really tackling, dead-on, how Ennis could be content with two boingings a year.  Which was Jack's biggest complaint.
Maybe am the only one really puzzled so it's unfair to stay there.  Young hearts, please run free and dump this  question and go where
your instincts say to go.  Isn't that big of a deal, anyway- just wondered what you thought, that's all.     Tony.

Was he content?   There was no contentment when he collapse in Jack's arms, only the pain of Jack's misunderstanding of the reasons for the couple of "high altitude f#@ks" once or twice a year.  He had nothing, and all he had was Jack, and Jack wished he could quit him.  Ennis was trying to hold to a perceive conventional life, and his need for Jack.  Now that's a balancing act.

my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: Oct 10, 2007, 06:12 AM by manhattangirl »

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #114 on: Oct 10, 2007, 07:18 AM »
Was he content?   There was no contentment when he collapse in Jack's arms, only the pain of Jack's misunderstanding of the reasons for the couple of "high altitude f#@ks" once or twice a year.  He had nothing, and all he had was Jack, and Jack wished he could quit him.  Ennis was trying to hold to a perceive conventional life, and his need for Jack.  Now that's a balancing act.

my 2 cents.

I don't think he was content.  He tried to show himself as a stoic, but he pretty much admitted at the close of that scene that he couldn't stand it.  Ennis certainly tried to keep the facade of a person who is master of himself and his desires.  I think it is clear that this was what it was: a facade.

In any case, the sex/kissing scenes seem to suggest this: where we see Ennis sometimes reticent, and sometimes active.   The Reunion kiss certainly showed him that he was unable to control himself all the time.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #115 on: Oct 10, 2007, 09:02 AM »
Was he content?   There was no contentment when he collapse in Jack's arms, only the pain of Jack's misunderstanding of the reasons for the couple of "high altitude f#@ks" once or twice a year.  He had nothing, and all he had was Jack, and Jack wished he could quit him.  Ennis was trying to hold to a perceive conventional life, and his need for Jack.  Now that's a balancing act.

my 2 cents.

Manhattangirl, I will have to make a point not to read your posts until evenings. You always get right to the heart of it, and in this thread, that hit right to the pain of that last scene. It's too damn early in the morning to breakdown crying with PBS. :(  :-\\  :) But it is always bittersweet. So thanks for putting me in tears, reading how Ennis felt, feeling Jack's misunderstanding his "being content" with the few meetings he had, when he was as obsessed with Jack as could be, and that line, to quit him, always has such power over me, especially when in proper content. :\'(
Your two golden pennies always shine. I will just have to treasure 'em at the end of the day. I can't afford to spent the rest of the day in a PBS daze. Serves me right to be online this early. ;)
 <^( :^^)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Tony

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #116 on: Oct 10, 2007, 11:01 AM »
       Aintfoolin, guess it's just you and me really, when it comes to Ennis' sexuality as a primary topic.  Your post was the best answer I could
want and was so alert and careful, would bet you'd just had your second coffee.

      Manhattengirl, if am correct, I now see the major theme in all your posts, which is that the tragedy all came from Ennis not accepting
who he was.  The phrase "balancing act", is a bulls-eye.  I do concede your approach----maybe it's just, you are New York, and I"m a
Southerner and so am not so angry that Ennis did a balancing act.  In the big cities, there's a rage against the ignorance that kills.
But I think in less tolerant areas, people adjust and accept, more than they would in a big city.  So I don't always have that anger, although
I know yours is rightful.

    Lance-no huggy-wugs.  A shot of whiskey and a snarl at an evil world  would do better for your mood.      Tony.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #117 on: Oct 10, 2007, 02:14 PM »
Was he content?   There was no contentment when he collapse in Jack's arms, only the pain of Jack's misunderstanding of the reasons for the couple of "high altitude f#@ks" once or twice a year.  He had nothing, and all he had was Jack, and Jack wished he could quit him.  Ennis was trying to hold to a perceive conventional life, and his need for Jack.  Now that's a balancing act.

my 2 cents.

 Ennis tried to compartmentalize everything. He was good at it up to the point of dealing with the love he had for Jack. Though he tried to keep everything in order, his life was turned upside down when it came to putting this love affair in the "right place".
He found the scales tipping more and more toward Jack and the "thing" he had for him. He could'nt tie this one up in a nice tidy little package to be brought out only when he wanted it to. I feel his love for Jack possesed him to the point where his devotion was out of control. It was the one thing he could not control, even on a daily basis.
 Jack was right up there with what Ennis treasured the most. The love of his little girls and his horses. He was his "little darlin" and in this context had a protective feel to it. You are absolutly right MG and Tpe, that Ennis was not content, not really. IMO, the more he tried to keep his feelings for Jack "in their place" ( it's little "compartment") the more he realized that this was something way beyond what he could master. He needed this like flowers need rain and sunshine.
This "balancing act" was doing damage to the relationship for there was the battle going on within it. Jack explined it to him and did'nt minced words in the confrontation scene, telling Ennis that he "was not him".  No doubt the sex was good,  but Jack wanted more, a commitment from Ennis and "proof" that this wasn't just a game being played , that he wasn't being played along with it. What is sex really without the expressed truth of the act. He needed to know from Ennis that his efforts and the giving of himself, MEANT something.

 His statement " I wish I knew how to quit you" is testament to how deeply Jack's feelings went, though at this point frustration had most definitly set in. His feelings were clearly define in how he felt about Ennis, but he was at the end of his rope as far as understanding why what was so obvious to him was still was still being weighed out and rationed through this couple of meetings a year. Getting Ennis to "give up the fight" was proving to be futile and  pushed him into the arms of Randall and other men, but it was Ennis who he wanted the most. Jack wished he knew how to solve this problem rather than "quit".  Finally he lays Ennis bear with words, and Ennis's real truths were exposed. He too, with all the denials finally confesses that he couldn't stand it any more either. I am reminded of the passage in the book The old man and the Sea. " To the end ,I grapple with thee". My thoughts.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

manhattangirl

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #118 on: Oct 10, 2007, 04:52 PM »
Ennis tried to compartmentalize everything. He was good at it up to the point of dealing with the love he had for Jack. Though he tried to keep everything in order, his life was turned upside down when it came to putting this love affair in the "right place".
He found the scales tipping more and more toward Jack and the "thing" he had for him. He could'nt tie this one up in a nice tidy little package to be brought out only when he wanted it to. I feel his love for Jack possesed him to the point where his devotion was out of control. It was the one thing he could not control, even on a daily basis.
 Jack was right up there with what Ennis treasured the most. The love of his little girls and his horses. He was his "little darlin" and in this context had a protective feel to it. You are absolutly right MG and Tpe, that Ennis was not content, not really. IMO, the more he tried to keep his feelings for Jack "in their place" ( it's little "compartment") the more he realized that this was something way beyond what he could master. He needed this like flowers need rain and sunshine.
This "balancing act" was doing damage to the relationship for there was the battle going on within it. Jack explined it to him and did'nt minced words in the confrontation scene, telling Ennis that he "was not him".  No doubt the sex was good,  but Jack wanted more, a commitment from Ennis and "proof" that this wasn't just a game being played , that he wasn't being played along with it. What is sex really without the expressed truth of the act. He needed to know from Ennis that his efforts and the giving of himself, MEANT something.

 His statement " I wish I knew how to quit you" is testament to how deeply Jack's feelings went, though at this point frustration had most definitly set in. His feelings were clearly define in how he felt about Ennis, but he was at the end of his rope as far as understanding why what was so obvious to him was still was still being weighed out and rationed through this couple of meetings a year. Getting Ennis to "give up the fight" was proving to be futile and  pushed him into the arms of Randall and other men, but it was Ennis who he wanted the most. Jack wished he knew how to solve this problem rather than "quit".  Finally he lays Ennis bear with words, and Ennis's real truths were exposed. He too, with all the denials finally confesses that he couldn't stand it any more either. I am reminded of the passage in the book The old man and the Sea. " To the end ,I grapple with thee". My thoughts.

Aintfoolin,  Love what you wrote, in any relationship there's a point where no matter how painful, you have look at it honestly.  Your take on Jack is beautiful, he did need that "proof of  love".

Tony- I just call it as I see it.  From New York with love <^(

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #119 on: Oct 10, 2007, 10:08 PM »
       Aintfoolin, guess it's just you and me really, when it comes to Ennis' sexuality as a primary topic.  Your post was the best answer I could
want and was so alert and careful, would bet you'd just had your second coffee.
[...]
    Lance-no huggy-wugs.  A shot of whiskey and a snarl at an evil world  would do better for your mood.      Tony.
Hey, Tony, I'd like a shot of whiskey in my coffee.  ;) Irish coffee is one of my favorite.

To the bullies, as Rudy says, stand up, and as you may add, and snarl.

We can only change how we react to the world, and most of the time, forgiveness and love is a better reaction, for our sakes, than anger and revenge. But there are always times, as you said, when a stronger reaction is appropriate, as Ennis did to the coyote the morning after FNIT.

Grant me the courage to change what I can,
the serenity to accept what I cannot change,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Ennis thought he could not change the world, so he hid behind a wall.
Jack thought he could change the world, so he went after it full throttle.
The tragedy is in the lack of wisdom in Ennis to know what he can change,
and the courage to change himself.

That, ultimately, is all we can change in this world.
As Ghandi said, be the change you want to see in the world.

So, to return to topic, I'd like spend a passionate night as Ennis in Jack's arms,
and a passionate night as Jack caressing every inch of Ennis.
Then, a passionate night as the meat in the cowboy sandwich.  ;D
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.