Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[lancecowboy]

Here I always thought when they ask you to cough during a physical they was checkin' other stuff . . .  What the hey?

You naughty boy, you, Jackster,  You better stop before we clear the room of all decent folks.

[lancecowboy]

Hey Tony, Well, only you men would know the implications of the "cough", but just don't sneeze!   How Ennis got his knees dirty is open for discussion,  and wild imagination , ( I can think of two ways ) but, it didn't  come from doing what I insist  he did'nt do.

As for the other thread, don your earphones friend, believe me it's worth hearing. Jack is being careful what he's asking for, but getting it too. Takes this scene to a new level of eroticism.

Finally, " Other matters of imports" are just fine and dandy with me. I have no qualms here, but what really bothers me is somewhere lies 12 unseen takes of FNIT! 13 takes before they got it right and Ang  Lee chose the 7th one. Now THIS  is a matter of importance.  Whole or little pieces I want em! Still waiting for that Director's Cut Mr. Lee. The film is beautifully done as is , but do we have to get Paul Harvey to give us "the rest of the story"? Please, don't get me started.

OMG, ainfooling, I have been waitin' for the collectors edition DVD, and you mean they don't have those "unseen takes"!  I think we should start a petition to ask for ALL the takes. I would love to watch every take, bloopers and all. THAT would be an event for the Grand Convention! Watching the bloopers with the cast and crew. I can dream of heaven...

Thanks for the tips about the sound. I will report back on what I hear. 

As for the dirt on Ennis' knees...don't tops get their knees dirty? The bottom would have dirt on their knees AND hands, or back...without getting more graphic and offensive... Don't texans drink coffee?

[lancecowboy]

Would any of you have strong feelings if they INTRODUCED a sex scene between Ennis and Cassie?

Or how about one between Jack and Randall?

Personally, I can live without either one, although I wonder sometimes how the addition of such sex scenes could have changed the dynamic of the film...


I hope this is NOT exactly OT, because the addition of these scenes may change the way we view the existing ones...

Thanks, tpe, I totally agree with you, and my sincere apologies for taking the discussion down a different road, so to speak, but I've been in a funny mood lately, don't know why. My PBS is moving out of the sad and sappy stage and on to a glad and happy one...or may be it's just me.

Anyhow, I still stand by my original feeling that I wouldn't change the movie one bit. I think it is perfect the way it is with all the layers of detail, interpretation, and richness. Adding explicit scenes may be exciting for that moment, but that moment also takes away from the artistry of the movie. Passion sometimes has to take a back seat to a higher calling.

Your analogy of adding a sex scene between Ennis and Cassie, or Jack and Randall is a perfect example of how the story would be different and the dynamics would be changed.

Even the sex scenes between Ennis and Alma, the one and only between Jack and Laureen, were there to tell a particular part of the story...the love that is a force of nature, and its impact on the lives of the people it touched.

[tpe]

Thanks, tpe, I totally agree with you, and my sincere apologies for taking the discussion down a different road, so to speak, but I've been in a funny mood lately, don't know why. My PBS is moving out of the sad and sappy stage and on to a glad and happy one...or may be it's just me.

Anyhow, I still stand by my original feeling that I wouldn't change the movie one bit. I think it is perfect the way it is with all the layers of detail, interpretation, and richness. Adding explicit scenes may be exciting for that moment, but that moment also takes away from the artistry of the movie. Passion sometimes has to take a back seat to a higher calling.

Your analogy of adding a sex scene between Ennis and Cassie, or Jack and Randall is a perfect example of how the story would be different and the dynamics would be changed.

Even the sex scenes between Ennis and Alma, the one and only between Jack and Laureen, were there to tell a particular part of the story...the love that is a force of nature, and its impact on the lives of the people it touched.

I think you are right here about the sex scenes being used specifically as a vehicle to tell a part of the story.  Clearly, they dispensed with any scenes in the end of the movie, where the dynamic had shifted to other issues and were in no need of amplification by the introduction of extra sex scenes.

IN a way, it is a wonderful example of subtle economy -- nothing extraneous, only enough of what is required to tell the story.

[jackster]

IN a way, it is a wonderful example of subtle economy -- nothing extraneous, only enough of what is required to tell the story.

You Bet.  Ang Lee = G E N I U S.

If any of that "other" stuff had been thrown in or shown, would we still be here talkin' about it? Thirteen takes!? Gee, sounds like someone just kept wanting to "try it one more time". 

You're right TPE, it musta' been very exhausting though. I've read where FNIT & SNIT were shot in "bright light" so the editors could adjust the light levels later in the studio as they saw fit. Heath (I think) was complaining that it made getting into the emotional aspect just that much harder.

I'm always torn as to whether I would really want to see any other "takes". Once you see them you can't get them back out of your head, and I can't help but think it would somehow diminish the "the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain" which is now forever locked inside.

[jerasjr]

Think that is the beauty of the film, the economy of the scenes that are part of it, enough to show the movement of the realtionship, yet not enough to distract or detract from the film.  So personally like the film as is it is, spare, economic and yet filled with a monumental beauty.  What is the old saying "less is more".
So no, wouldn't change anything - it is a thing of great significance, so why tamper with it?

[jerasjr]

YOu know, sorry if I sound so absolute and final about things, but just am not a "what if" person, do not spend a lot of time conjecturing. BBM has the most special place is my being - so don't mind my opinions if they sound harsh...

[keren_b]

Would any of you have strong feelings if they INTRODUCED a sex scene between Ennis and Cassie?

Or how about one between Jack and Randall?

Major "eeewwww" to both! Sorry... I just feel that any sex scene which is not Ennis and Jack is somehow artificial and simply wrong. It's hard enough to see Ennis having sex with Alma. 

[tpe]

Major "eeewwww" to both! Sorry... I just feel that any sex scene which is not Ennis and Jack is somehow artificial and simply wrong. It's hard enough to see Ennis having sex with Alma. 

 

Thanks jackster, jerasjr, and keren.    I admit that it feels alien thinking about adding sex scenes -- they would certainly change the balance so carefully nurtured by the existing ones!

 

[lancecowboy]

Major "eeewwww" to both! Sorry... I just feel that any sex scene which is not Ennis and Jack is somehow artificial and simply wrong. It's hard enough to see Ennis having sex with Alma. 

why major eeewwww? I mean, hmmm...., I agree that these unnecessary sex scenes are distractions from the love that is a force of nature, but...

This raises an interesting, perhaps moral or ethical question, probably covered already by others in earlier or other threads, so PLEASE tell me to shut up if this is OT or well, just out of it...

The questions is, ahem, should Ennis or Jack have sex with anyone else when they don't love these other people, when they KNOW that they have found their true love?

Before anyone throw me tomatoes, cat piss, or worse, please hear me out.

I am not talking about anyone else who haven't found love. I am not even talking about Jack going to Mexico or Randall when he can hardly stand not getting it from Ennis. I am talking about when the two of them have found each other, when they know, as Ennis did by the time after the diner scene, that what they had was more than fun, more than sex, more than companionship. When they know in their hearts of hearts, that it was love, true love. I think, it that case, Keren is right on. Major eeeeewwww, to watch them doing it with anyone else. It would be a major violation of their trust and love for one another. A kind of betrayal. As I mentioned earlier, it is one thing to have an open relationship when there is a LOT of HONESTY AND a LOT of LOVE. But if one or the other goes off on their own to do things behind the other's back, I think Ennis' reaction is natural.

Just my two cents' worth.

[lancecowboy]

YOu know, sorry if I sound so absolute and final about things, but just am not a "what if" person, do not spend a lot of time conjecturing. BBM has the most special place is my being - so don't mind my opinions if they sound harsh...

hey, jerasjr, you and I both! If I ever come across sounding absolute and harsh, just slap me silly because I am really a soft and fuzzy person underneath the hard analytical exterior. I guess the movie has such an impact on me that I just want to find answers, to understand the layers of meaning, to perceive the richness of detail that can be seen only from multiple perspectives. That's why I love this forum. Everyone brings a different interpretation, a different take on the same dang movie that we saw, multiple times. Yet, we are still coming up with interesting variations on the different scenes.

You Bet.  Ang Lee = G E N I U S.
[...]

I honest think the movie was made with loving care, by the whole cast and crew, and I think it is fitting that we receive it, treasure it, with the same love and care.

   B R O K E B A C K   M O U N T A I N   

[lancecowboy]

Hey Tony, Well, only you men would know the implications of the "cough", but just don't sneeze!   How Ennis got his knees dirty is open for discussion,  and wild imagination , ( I can think of two ways ) but, it didn't  come from doing what I insist  he did'nt do.

As for the other thread, don your earphones friend, believe me it's worth hearing. Jack is being careful what he's asking for, but getting it too. Takes this scene to a new level of eroticism.

Finally, " Other matters of imports" are just fine and dandy with me. I have no qualms here, but what really bothers me is somewhere lies 12 unseen takes of FNIT! 13 takes before they got it right and Ang  Lee chose the 7th one. Now THIS  is a matter of importance.  Whole or little pieces I want em! Still waiting for that Director's Cut Mr. Lee. The film is beautifully done as is , but do we have to get Paul Harvey to give us "the rest of the story"? Please, don't get me started.

Just want to report back on my findings from turning the sound to max during FNIT. Other than the incredible amount of moaning and groaning, there is a definite sequence of #$%@ ME and a possible sequence of what sounded like the sound track playing in slow reverse or something, of the same phrase. So, aintfoolin, I agree that Jack definite asked and received.

And now I am curious, 

Hey Tony, Well, only you men would know the implications of the "cough", but just don't sneeze!   How Ennis got his knees dirty is open for discussion,  and wild imagination , ( I can think of two ways ) but, it didn't  come from doing what I insist  he did'nt do.

What exactly do you mean? Texans don't drink coffee? Tops don't get their knees dirty? Ahem...

[jerasjr]

One more take on this:
There was a vision of this movie in Ang Lee's mind, and we are privileged to see what he considers the "best" intepretation of that vision.  In my mind, that vision encompassed the feeling that this story is not about sex and not about love, but an intertwining of the two that involves a realtionship that we can only hope for.  So, whether that involves 200 high altitude f..ks or only a few, his meaning was conveyed.  And whether there were 200 takes of a scene or 2, his vision was conveyed. 
It seems that his mastery is in leaving us to envision whatever else might have happened between our boys, and that could be his greatest gift to us.

[Tony]

  Jerasjr-Bravo!!!!  Great post!  You realize, of course, that in speaking of Ang Lee's vision, you are conceding that the film went past the
SS in so many ways, and everyone wants to sweep that under the rug.  I don't know if Annie Proulx would be offended, but in some cases,
an author does not write, but gives birth.  Meaning, in the best literature, they have lost control and the characters take on a life of their own.
This takes nothing away from her genius.
     As for Ang Lee's (and your) seeing the film as neither sex nor love but an intertwining of the two-makes sense to me.  But in your last
sentence, you did bring up something extremely important to me, which is that he invited us to go into the film ourselves and bring into
this experience, our own--being there.  Not your exact words, but the idea he gave us a gift--to join in, not as spectators munching
popcorn, but, as lovers, if we could-I hope very much that is what you meant.

    OT-Daniblondy showed up and startled me.  She was very, very hip to subjects we have not covered.  How many others are reading,
occasionally, and never posting?  Even if they jumped in and then jumped out--sure would be neat, as that gal had something to offer
and so there must be others.

  Also OT, had not heard anymore from BabyTammy7, and so went to the Spanish site, where they are all just fine, and full of life and
love. COME BACK, BABYTAMMY!!! Yo te quiero!!!

  Again, jerasjr-I am very happy if it turns out, you too, see the gift of this film-that it asks us to go up into the screen, walk through,
and be with those two forlorn lovers.          Tony.

[jerasjr]

TY Tony - yes Tony, do know that Ang Lee expanded on Annie Proulx's original - faithfully retaining her concept.  So then as Lee expanded on Proulx, we can expand on Lee - we can speculate, but not necessarily change what is there, and that is part of the magic.  Proulx's idea and inspiration, followed by Lee's concept and dramatization that allow us to become part of it, wholly.

[lancecowboy]

One more take on this:
There was a vision of this movie in Ang Lee's mind, and we are privileged to see what he considers the "best" intepretation of that vision.  In my mind, that vision encompassed the feeling that this story is not about sex and not about love, but an intertwining of the two that involves a realtionship that we can only hope for.  So, whether that involves 200 high altitude f..ks or only a few, his meaning was conveyed.  And whether there were 200 takes of a scene or 2, his vision was conveyed. 
It seems that his mastery is in leaving us to envision whatever else might have happened between our boys, and that could be his greatest gift to us.

You said it, jerasjr. I can't think of a better way to describe the gift from Ang Lee, that it is a movie that is a container for us all to pour our hopes and dreams of what a relationship between two soul mates can be. We fill this container with our own envision, intertwined with the images that are crafted masterfully with loving care to every detail, so much so that it rivals reality. Indeed, to many of us, the characters are real because they echo what we feel in our souls.

Ooops, I guess I did have something to say...but you still say it better in your two succinct sentences.

[aintfoolin]

 I see the characters themselves as not hard to figure, as individuals, but when they are placed into this  story, things become a bit more complicated. I tend to look at them as individuals first, then go from there. Their personalies are very different, though the similar upbringing brought some balance to the two characters. The same , but different. No it is not about just sex, or love alone, but an intermingling of how one affected the other through Jack and Ennis's journey. . I totally agree with both jerasjr and Lance about Ang's vision of the story. Thank you for descibing to "Gift" so brilliantly. Ang Lee and Alfred Hitchcock are the two best directors that ever lived imo. Their attention to detail is priceless!

In the SS Jack's character is not JG in a physical sense and it is that fact along with HL , two gorgeous actors who helped bring these characters to  life and to an audience that would not have , otherwise had interest in the film. I say this , certainly with no offense intended whatsoever to Ms Proulx, the great author of this story or anyone else, but you must admit, these two actors had such chemistry between them during  the film , including the the sex scenes , that it did  almost blurred reality. At least for me it did. FNIT to me was shocking , but I got really good feelings about the acts, in more ways than one. Thanks. My opinion.

[myprivatejack]

    Also OT, had not heard anymore from BabyTammy7, and so went to the Spanish site, where they are all just fine, and full of life and
love. COME BACK, BABYTAMMY!!! Yo te quiero!!!

For me, the story doesn´t speak about sex,not even love,but it´s the portrait of an extreme communion-do you say it so?-of two souls,bodys and minds,in a sexually,mentally,emotionally and living bond beyond words and beyond death,unfortunatelly. . But it´s curious for me seeing as Ang Lee,a man, has turned these feelings into images with a greater tenderness than AP,a woman,has turned them into words...Clichés don´t always work...
P.S.:Tony,Babytammyhas had some personal problems and a change in her work that keeps her busier than few weeks ago.She´s allright now and even writes to us fom time to time,but we really hope she´ll come back soon in all her splendour.Jeffjoe and me specially are missing her a lot also. :\'( ¡Nosotros tambien te queremos¡A ver si escribes en el canal español...Un abrazo/hugs.
 

[Tony]

    Myprivatejack, thanks for inviting me to the Spanish site, but am just learning this beautiful, passionate language and it will be a while
before I would give it a go.  But you all seem to be very, very much full of life and love there, in the true Brokie spirit, and I wish we could
all have your easy-going---humanity.  It's so full of freedom.
    You are right about the contrast between Annie Proulx and Ang Lee.  The screenplay writers and Ang Lee pulled more tenderness out of
the SS.   It was there, beneath the rough life she portrayed, but the adaptation had to expand and show, what the SS tended only to
suggest, given Ms. Proulx's carefully rugged style.
    IMO, though, nobody can lay claim to Ennis and Jack, anymore.  They were given birth and have become independent, and we can meet
them and love them as we see fit.
     
    Well, am off to the Italian site, now.  Can't understand a word they are saying, but am determined to have sex with an Italian, as that is
on my list of things-to-do.  At the appropriate moment, will pounce, but probably hit a concrete wall like the  cartoon character
Wile E. Cayote.  It will be awkward, but  worth the risk.  And if they reject me, there's always the Finns.       Tony.

[myprivatejack]

Well,if you want to have sex with an Italian,perhaps you won´t need to speak a word in this language...
There´re things that go beyond the spoken,I mean...
When you´re prepared-TO SPEAK IN SPANISH, don´t misunderstand me...-here we are¡ Soyez le bienvenu¡

[lancecowboy]

For me, the story doesn´t speak about sex,not even love,but it´s the portrait of an extreme communion-do you say it so?-of two souls,bodys and minds,in a sexually,mentally,emotionally and living bond beyond words and beyond death,unfortunatelly. . But it´s curious for me seeing as Ang Lee,a man, has turned these feelings into images with a greater tenderness than AP,a woman,has turned them into words...Clichés don´t always work...
P.S.:Tony,Babytammyhas had some personal problems and a change in her work that keeps her busier than few weeks ago.She´s allright now and even writes to us fom time to time,but we really hope she´ll come back soon in all her splendour.Jeffjoe and me specially are missing her a lot also. :\'( ¡Nosotros tambien te queremos¡A ver si escribes en el canal español...Un abrazo/hugs.
 

Hi, myprivatejack, please give Babytammy a hug and kiss from me. I hope she gets back on her normal routine and can contribute again to the forum. I miss her posts. 

And your observation, that Ang Lee the man's movie is more tender than AP's the woman's book, is interesting. I am getting the book this weekend so I will have a little  something to say next week.

[Tony]

  it's c-o-l-d here in Finland.  Wanna come home.  Will behave, i promise......tony.

[Tony]

  Hello, again, Brokies.  Am currently negotiating with the captain of a Swedish fishing trawler, headed for Newfoundland, for safe passage home.
Finland is OK, but....never mind-too long of a story.  At any rate, will probably be exhausted by the time I get back (Swedes are somewhat
over-sexed), and so, too, may be this thread.
   So.  Now is a good time to see if anyone has any views on some remaining questions I had hoped to ask.

    We have discussed the sex scenes over and over, but as we defined the sex scenes--FNIT,SNIT, etc.  But, expanding to what the
general public might consider sex scenes, or sexually oriented, in some way, for example--just plain old nude shots, what did you think
of them?
    We have non-sexual nudity, then, left to consider.  Ennis washing himself while Jack avoided looking, Jack squatting by the river,
washing his clothes, the long-shot of skinny-dipping.  In the broadest definition (whether you get an R rating), these are part of what
could be called sex scenes.
    I noticed something right away, first time I saw BBM---those nude scenes seemed to be deliberately not sexy.  Here you have Heath
and Jake, two actors considered hot stuff, NAKED, but not sexy.  Who would find that nudity erotic? Never heard anyone say it turned
them on, and yet, they were naked.
   Does anyone feel that was deliberate, so as not to offend the general public?  The positions they were in were non-suggestive and
even goofy and unkempt.  And would you have changed that- the nude scenes-to something erotic to women or gays?  Had meant to
pursue this much earlier, but must do it now as we may, as was mentioned, have exhausted the topic.  Anyone?

  Also, could someone cover for me, while am gone?  Any reference to a laptop over-excites the Swedish captain-the word must mean
something else to them.  Will be back soon but may need some time to rest up as aintfooling may be right that Ennis would never bottom,
but she knows nothing about Lars, (my best chance out of here) and this is looking more and more dubious to me.  May be stuck in
Finland as I may not have the energy required by this crazed Swedish love-machine.   

    Again, anyone's answers to the above questions would be helpful.  Also, will stay on topic, when back, and have agreed to enter
a 12 step program to de-Tonify Tony, which should relieve the moderators.     Finland is beautiful, but need to get outta here and
into several weeks of bed rest.            Tony.

[LuvJackNasty]

     Does anyone feel that was deliberate, so as not to offend the general public?  The positions they were in were non-suggestive and
even goofy and unkempt.  And would you have changed that- the nude scenes-to something erotic to women or gays?  Had meant to
pursue this much earlier, but must do it now as we may, as was mentioned, have exhausted the topic.  Anyone?

 

I don't know if I thnk it was deliberate to not offend the general public but I think it was "deliberate" in that it wasn't supposed to be erotic-for us anyway. We are watching their lives and their private moments. Just like with everything else in this movie we don't need to be beat over the head with "this is supposed to mean this or that"- it's the subtley of this movie that makes it more powerful- at least that's my opinion.

[aintfoolin]

I don't know if I thnk it was deliberate to not offend the general public but I think it was "deliberate" in that it wasn't supposed to be erotic-for us anyway. We are watching their lives and their private moments. Just like with everything else in this movie we don't need to be beat over the head with "this is supposed to mean this or that"- it's the subtley of this movie that makes it more powerful- at least that's my opinion.

 Well concerning the scene where Ennis is bathing nearby, it started when Ennis returns to camp, for supper,and decides simply to bathe and shave. A piece of their daily normal life on Brokeback.   I agree with LJN, that this to us was not suppose to be erotic, but the scene left no doubt  that Ennis doing this in such close proximity to Jack, definitly conjured up erotic thoughts in him. It's put in to illustrate the sexual tension in Jack's mind. Though HE feels it, I felt it was only put in to carry the story along , to show the build up of feeling he was experiencing , not us. Ennis is first seen shirtless, then removes his boots, then socks ( all this mind you, while Jack prepares this wonderful meal)....he tried...anyway  I personally did  not expect the nude scene. When I saw it , I was more focused on Jack, (who was not nude in the scene) and his reaction, which was what I think was the intended focus. 

 Jack nude washing clothes? What's erotic about laundry day? As camp tender, this was part of his job, besides , bathing and clean close are required after so much time, and as I recall, it WAS the "morning after. Makes sense, nothing erotic here.

The "skinny-dipping scene? Just two wild and crazy country boys, showing their true colors. Ennis says " last one in...." and off they went, just havin fun like kids. LJN's right , delibrate in NOT being delibrate. Subtley is the order of the day in the film, if not for that , we as viewers would have no blanks to fill in with our sometimes *not so subtle * opinions.

Tony, where are  you? sounds like your on a slow boat to China!... or is it Finland. Lars, shmars, get back home!!
 Sounds like it's colder than than the  Cleveland Indian's locker room there!!  :\'( :\'(    ...And Boston gets even colder!

[tpe]

I see the characters themselves as not hard to figure, as individuals, but when they are placed into this  story, things become a bit more complicated. I tend to look at them as individuals first, then go from there. Their personalies are very different, though the similar upbringing brought some balance to the two characters. The same , but different. No it is not about just sex, or love alone, but an intermingling of how one affected the other through Jack and Ennis's journey. . I totally agree with both jerasjr and Lance about Ang's vision of the story. Thank you for descibing to "Gift" so brilliantly. Ang Lee and Alfred Hitchcock are the two best directors that ever lived imo. Their attention to detail is priceless!

In the SS Jack's character is not JG in a physical sense and it is that fact along with HL , two gorgeous actors who helped bring these characters to  life and to an audience that would not have , otherwise had interest in the film. I say this , certainly with no offense intended whatsoever to Ms Proulx, the great author of this story or anyone else, but you must admit, these two actors had such chemistry between them during  the film , including the the sex scenes , that it did  almost blurred reality. At least for me it did. FNIT to me was shocking , but I got really good feelings about the acts, in more ways than one. Thanks. My opinion.

Hello aintfoolin. 

You bring up another interesting point here.  I think some of the sex scenes in the movie are quite faithful to the ss, but others are not (they are more attenuated, as in the Motel scene).

Of course, the biggest change wrought by the movie IMO is the use of beautiful actors to play the part, whereas the ss would make us believe that the contrary was true.

Hence, the use of Jake and Heath intrinsically changed the flavor of the sex scenes, no?  Would we change the sex scenes by considering actors who were "closer" to the characters envisioned in the ss?

[tpe]

I don't know if I thnk it was deliberate to not offend the general public but I think it was "deliberate" in that it wasn't supposed to be erotic-for us anyway. We are watching their lives and their private moments. Just like with everything else in this movie we don't need to be beat over the head with "this is supposed to mean this or that"- it's the subtley of this movie that makes it more powerful- at least that's my opinion.

I must admit that I had considered Tony's point before.

Thinking about the "acrobatic" sex scenes in Ang Lee's new movie, "Lust, Caution", I had wondered if he could have done the same thing with BBM.  Knowing how Jake reacted to the explicit scenes in Bertolucci's "The Dreamers" makes me think whether subtlety was introduced in the scenes to make the actors feel more comfortable.  But I do think that subtlety is what BBM called for, and hence, this is what we got.

[Tony]

   LuvJackNasty-thank-you.   Subtlety is at the very root of every part of this love story and ought not to be undone.  Even so, we still
can zoom in, blow up something small, the better to appreciate it, and then let it go back to that subtle ripple in the river.  For example,
the  toy cowboy in Jack's room.  It is frought with so much meaning that could be there.  The trick is to look, but not, as you might suggest,
destroy, by lingering too long.  Difficult to balance.

   Tpe, you have it on target-would it have been as powerful if the casting were different?  Could it ever have been anyone other than
Heath and Jake? IMO, some things are meant to be---converging lines that make for a change in the flow of life, and this was one of those
rare events.  Had to be them.  The pieces had to fit together for this metaphysical interruption of our lives and they were essential parts
of the whole.

   Aintfoolin-I made a big mistake in not taking up  myprivatejack's invitation to Spain.  Ended up in Finland.  Have learned some Swedish
from Lars, the trawler captain (see above): grink'l argcka, which is what Jack was saying, sotto voce, to encourage Ennis In FNIT.
Lars has decided he wants to be the grink'l-ee, rather than the grink'l-er and is now seeking a divorce from his wife.  Unfortunately,
I ran out of steam somewhere off the coast of the Outer Hebrides and if I don't find some more energy, may be dumped in Iceland.
    In truth, I will need much bed rest when I get home, so am down to my last few posts.  Am thinking this thread is also nearing
exhaustion, so have tried for opinions on the nudity and have appreciated those that were given.  If you don't hear from me, please be
sure am OK, but am grink'l-ed out.   Someone needs to set the direction here, if any, and I will read, rather than post.   Much love, Tony.

[babytammy7]

OT  SORRY, but I have to say it.

Tony, MPJ, Lancecowboy!!! OMG Thank you so much for your incredible support, love and understanding!! You all are so amazing, and I'm really touched. :\'(  :\'(  :\'( I've missed you so much!!! 
Tony, as I said before, you're so nice and special for me, and I like so much reading all your posts!! You know that 'cause I've told you before!! I adore your stories and your view of life!!! Please, please, come back to visit us at spanish channel: there we are a big family and it would be a very beautiful surprise for me, really, yo también te quiero!!! 

Lancecowboy, believe me, yesterday I told to MPJ (ask her please) that I'm really happy for you writting in the forum, 'cause I think you are a very sensitive person and I've cried reading some posts of you, 'cause you are a poet, a wonderful poet. 

MPJ, what can I say? My friend, my babe, "here" and "there". My heart is yours!!! 

Really (MPJ knows that it is true) though I have so many and heartbreaking problems and I can't to write as much as before, I daily read all your posts, all your nice and moving posts!! Thank you so much for that!! I love you all!!

Be well my friends!! 

[Tony]

    Am back.  Somewhat rested.  Anyone who wants Lars, can have him.  As for my indiscretions, am sure a few of you have done worse.

         It's been interesting that the nudity scenes were seen as just normal and not planned carefully, to avoid any accidental erotic value.
  Maybe they were just tossed off, casually.  Maybe it's just a roll of the dice that Heath and Jake, naked, did not cause any reaction from
  a fan base that swoons if they leave two buttons open on their shirts.
        And yet.....on my DVD, in the extra's section, there was Ang Lee, carefully explaining what kind of audience he wanted shown at
  the 4th of July scene.  What he wanted them to look like.  Attention to detail, down to the little boy with a firecracker.
        Sounds more like a master craftsman, to me, so that, in BBM, we can take nothing for granted, including the nude scenes.  Maybe
  there's nothing unusual there.  Maybe there is.

       BabyTammy, thanks for the invite to the Spanish site.  I do go there, sometimes, but am just learning Spanish and so cannot post.
  Even so, can see there is a wonderful, loving crowd there and I wish all of you happiness and love.             Tony.