Author Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?  (Read 435215 times)

Offline Tony

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 797
  • Gender: Male
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #210 on: Oct 26, 2007, 08:40 PM »
     Found them.  Monstrous!  Blasphemous!!!  May read one, though, if can figure out how to access them.  These would, of course, make
this thread obsolete.  Am surprised at you, BabyTammy---romance?  Passion?  Sex?  They'll never let you back in the convent now.  Tony.

Offline chameau

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 28148
  • Gender: Male
  • Miss ya little darlin'
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #211 on: Oct 26, 2007, 08:45 PM »
Is this thread still on topic, huh? ???
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline LuvJackNasty

  • Mod-ChickY Brigade
  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 26177
  • Gender: Female
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #212 on: Oct 26, 2007, 09:23 PM »
So I’m asking to myself, though we all prefer the film as it is, unconsciously do we crave for more sex scenes between Ennis and Jack, or at least, that some of the scenes in the film were longer or more explicit? So I also think that maybe we need, in our subconscious, more sex in BBM as an only and powerful expression of love, which means that we all see sex, in one or another way, like a pure and enormous manifestation of love.  <^(



First hugs on the PBS  :ghug: I'm heavy in it myself right now.

To answer your question at least from my perspective and my perspective only- I think the film/story was fine as it was. Sex, while a part of their relationship, did not make the relationship. There was a deep love there and that is what sustained them for twenty years. In regards to the fics-I'd be a liar if I said I didn't enjoy that aspect of their relationship depicted in various stories, but I am drawn to ones that also have  a solid loving foundation at the core- ie: ones that aren't all about the sex- without that foundation there it doesn't "do it" for me- I started reading them to feel better- to live in some fantasy world where Jack was alive- it helped some and made watching the movie worse on a lot of levels when I had to face the truth all over again that Jack was dead. The part of the OS/movie that drew me in was the love that was so evident between them, not how many times they kissed or made love. Early on that reunion kiss made me weak kneed and I practically drooled everytime I saw it- now I cry and cry hard through it because it has come to mean so much more to me. This movie doesn't grip me because of the sex or kissing- these characters are very real to me and as much as it still reduces me to a sobbing mess, I love watching them fall in love and I cry for all that was denied them and lost to them.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #213 on: Oct 27, 2007, 01:16 AM »
      What fanfics?  What sex?  Why am I always the last one to know what's going on around here?   Tony.
:8  ;D I love your sense of humor, Tony.
Serves you right for going to Finland when you can find the best sex right here at home.   ^-^
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #214 on: Oct 27, 2007, 01:25 AM »
[...]
So I’m asking to myself, though we all prefer the film as it is, unconsciously do we crave for more sex scenes between Ennis and Jack, or at least, that some of the scenes in the film were longer or more explicit? So I also think that maybe we need, in our subconscious, more sex in BBM as an only and powerful expression of love, which means that we all see sex, in one or another way, like a pure and enormous manifestation of love.  <^(

Oooohhh, sorry I don’t know if this makes sense, I’m so confused today…..( I have an terrible PBS, and also I’m very tired ’cause still I’m sick). Just thinking….. :s)

Kisses from Spain.  ^f^

:ghug: :^^) babytammy7, although there is no cure for PBS, the love and friendship in this forum is a cool ointment that soothes the fever and make PBS bearable.

For that same reason, I don't go chasing after the fanfic sex stories (not that there is anything wrong with doing so, just not my priority at the moment). With PBS, the sex scenes are but a temporary escape, a distraction from the real pain of lost love, love misunderstood, unrequited love, all so poignantly demonstrated in Brokeback Mountain. The sex in FNIT and SNIT are so perfect, that we long for more. It is natural but at the same time, I think the search for more of perfection may lead to disappointment. I don't know, it's still so new to me that I am only starting to sort these feelings out. Once I have read the short story, and watch the movie again for the first time in a week, with the script in hand, I will let you know if I also crave for more sex scene. ;)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #215 on: Oct 27, 2007, 06:48 AM »
  Am surprised at you, BabyTammy---romance?  Passion?  Sex?  They'll never let you back in the convent now.  Tony.

Dear Tony......, I was reading NOTHING on that board, NOT fanfics...... I just was going for a walk.....  #)  #)  #)

 :^^)

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #216 on: Oct 27, 2007, 07:18 AM »
First hugs on the PBS  :ghug: I'm heavy in it myself right now.

 The part of the OS/movie that drew me in was the love that was so evident between them, not how many times they kissed or made love. Early on that reunion kiss made me weak kneed and I practically drooled everytime I saw it- now I cry and cry hard through it because it has come to mean so much more to me. This movie doesn't grip me because of the sex or kissing- these characters are very real to me and as much as it still reduces me to a sobbing mess, I love watching them fall in love and I cry for all that was denied them and lost to them.

Oh thank you sweetie for your nice post!!!  ^f^ I totally agree with you!!!! BBM is about love, endless love, and not about how many times they kissing and making love!!!! I was only asking to myself if those all fics mean that brokies think that Ennis and Jack thought in the same terms about their love and recieved and gave each other in the same level only through sex, 'cause out of sex they probably had the feeling that one of them always gave more than the other (in the confrontation scene we see that in Jack's words....).

Sorry, almost always I can not express well in your nice language what I want to say......  :-\\

manhattangirl

  • Guest
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #217 on: Oct 27, 2007, 07:24 AM »
MG,

 I totally agree with this. Beautifully said. I believe that during sex between these two, it is the culmination of all they feel for each other. It is also emotion expressed in a natural  comfortable way for both of them. I loved the way they just sort of just stumbled upon one another. It was fate that brought them together thru Aguirre, but what are the chances of lightening strikng twice like this for either of these guys in Wy 1963?  With the needs that they had, Ennis, in need of a friend, and there is Jack, willing to "stick with him"  Through the confusion, Sham marriages, on both parts, half-loving and half-living, Jack was there. It was he who saw  and pursued a future beyond Brokeback.

I still feel that Jack tapped into something deep inside Ennis, buried for years. I think when he met Jack, Ennis grew so close to Jack that he allowed himself to let them surface. Sex was important, as in any couple who is in love with someone else, but this was a new feeling for Ennis, a very different exploration into sex.  I do feel the distance kept it fresh and new in part Each time they met it was an opportunity to explore all over again. No doubt through the years, they came to know each other's needs very well and the only thing I'd really change would be some visiable expression of it.

It's been dicussed how Jack read Ennis up on Brokeback, ( How Jack knew when to approach Ennis in FNIT) but I'm curious if Ennis "read" anything into Jack prior to the tent scene? When Ennis looks at Jack just prior to the FNIT, whom does he see? A man, equal to him , rodeo bullrider, a masculine cowboy. He is also a friend , a companion, but I often love to explore the physical aspects. Jack was an attractive man, ( film Jack) not, the SS one, though in any case, Ennis fell hard.), but for the sake of this poster, it's the film Jack,  did Ennis ever acknowledge this to himself? Did he look at the physical?  I feel this is a very intriuging point. How much of THAT played into Ennis's new found experiences? They seemed like each others's dream in every way imo. Jack Twist? Jack Nasty, Alma says. As far as sex between them (and for Ennis's sake) it's a compliment as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes "Nasty"  is good. ;) ;)

IMO:

You know I maybe wrong in this,  but in film I think it wasn't Jack's appearance that drew Ennis to Jack but Jack's personality that drew him to Jack.  His bad harmonica playing, getting thrown from the mare, not shooting straight, those things Jack would laugh at himself about and that Ennis laugh with him, but not at him.  These things,  the things that others might call someone incompetent, or bragget with no back up, was endearing to Ennis.  

In the film these are two very attractive men, but something that's not hitting you over the head with. But funny, in the ss what was written about Ennis memory of Jack?  Was his appearance the one Ennis remembered, the slightly bucked teeth before he had them fixed, and his curly hair.  The Jack Ennis fell in love with from years past when they were young. 

Go figure.
« Last Edit: Oct 27, 2007, 07:52 AM by manhattangirl »

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #218 on: Oct 27, 2007, 07:25 AM »
:ghug: :^^) babytammy7, although there is no cure for PBS, the love and friendship in this forum is a cool ointment that soothes the fever and make PBS bearable.

 The sex in FNIT and SNIT are so perfect, that we long for more. It is natural but at the same time, I think the search for more of perfection may lead to disappointment. I don't know, it's still so new to me that I am only starting to sort these feelings out. Once I have read the short story, and watch the movie again for the first time in a week, with the script in hand, I will let you know if I also crave for more sex scene. ;)

Thank you for your words my dear poet!!!  :^^)

I'm so happy that you finally got the SS!!!!  :clap: Oh believe me, you will adore that book!!! It's amazing!! And you will have a deeper vision of their love, as I have without more sex scenes.

I have to say that first time I saw FNIT I blushed......., and second time too.......  (t) Yeah, it's true, those sex scenes are so perfect!!!


Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #219 on: Oct 27, 2007, 11:36 AM »
IMO:

You know I maybe wrong in this,  but in film I think it wasn't Jack's appearance that drew Ennis to Jack but Jack's personality that drew him to Jack.  His bad harmonica playing, getting thrown from the mare, not shooting straight, those things Jack would laugh at himself about and that Ennis laugh with him, but not at him.  These things,  the things that others might call someone incompetent, or bragget with no back up, was endearing to Ennis.  

In the film these are two very attractive men, but something that's not hitting you over the head with. But funny, in the ss what was written about Ennis memory of Jack?  Was his appearance the one Ennis remembered, the slightly bucked teeth before he had them fixed, and his curly hair.  The Jack Ennis fell in love with from years past when they were young. 

Go figure.

I love this movie because it makes alive the very thing we talk about in this forum, that with true love, even our loved one's faults are delicious. Too much perfection makes someone less lovable, in my opinion, less approachable. It is in our faults, that our loved one has the opportunity to have a handle on us. How they manipulate (oh that nasty word again) us depends on their love and character. With our faults, without our handles, we would be unlovable. We'd be all the same monotonous clones.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline myprivatejack

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 15750
  • Gender: Female
  • It could be like this,just like this...always
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #220 on: Oct 27, 2007, 11:44 AM »
Hello brokies!!

Well, back to the original question. We all have said that we are really happy with the sex scenes as they are ( Not Tony….he want us to show him something…. ^^)  ^^) And it’s not an Italian, Tony….  >:D  :8 ), so powerful and beautiful!!! And we all (well almost all) are truly happy with the number of sex scenes and the “things” Ennis and Jack did in those scenes!!!

But today I was going for a walk on the fanfic board, and I noticed that every fic have a lot of sex scenes, very explicit, very long, very intense, full of different postures and different sexual games!!!  :d)  (t)  In almost every chapter of several fics there is sex!!  (t) Always, in those fics the writers use sex like an amazing way that Ennis and Jack need to express themselves and their feelings and emotions, and even in all those fanfics sex is the only way for them to show each other their eternal love.
I also noticed that every brokie reading those fics, adore sex scenes, looking for more, asking for more and clapping the sex scenes they just have read!!! They are (and I am) sooooo happy and excited reading Ennis and Jack making love!! And sex scenes seem to be an indispensable element in those fics, in Ennis and Jack’s life and love!!!

So I’m asking to myself, though we all prefer the film as it is, unconsciously do we crave for more sex scenes between Ennis and Jack, or at least, that some of the scenes in the film were longer or more explicit? So I also think that maybe we need, in our subconscious, more sex in BBM as an only and powerful expression of love, which means that we all see sex, in one or another way, like a pure and enormous manifestation of love.  <^(

Oooohhh, sorry I don’t know if this makes sense, I’m so confused today…..( I have an terrible PBS, and also I’m very tired ’cause still I’m sick). Just thinking….. :s)

Kisses from Spain.  ^f^

Hi,Tammy¡
Well, we aren´t going to lie,effectively,by saying we don´t like these kind of scenes;as we say here"nobody feels bitter a candy"... ;D But we must think that is logical that-letting aside some kind of morbid attraction-sex played a good role in Ennis and Jack´s relationship.They didn´t see each other more than two or three times a year ,for what all a longing and great wish for having each other in every sense had time enough to develop in their minds..and another parts of their bodies.A new Brokie in Spanish channel,JusepeTwist,told me that he believed how sex was maybe the only way they had to communicate themselves.And I think he´s right,because sex gave them a level of communication that they didn´t have very often in another sides of their relationship.Lack of a REAL communication that was the beguinning of the end for them and their love during years,a lack that they had,as I said to Jusepe,in vertical position more often than they must and that they found better in a horizontal position... :8
It´s curious for me , *o) only a little, how they didn´t have as lovers the same trust as friends,that trust that made Ennis coming out from his shell only before Jack,and made him speak more about his life´s circumstances than with nobody else before he had...Perhaps for fear or for shame,we tend to hide our lovers some things we´d tell so naturally to our friends;these aren´t going to leave us for knowing these things,but maybe lovers are... ???.
The case is that in a movie time we can´t see a life time running before our eyes,with struggles,fears,afection,recovers and sexual relationships; so we like to let our imagination fly in this concrete aspect of their relationship that is more or less hidden in the movie ^-^,and add a little of this morbid attraction is logical to feel for the question in itself...However,aren´t we giving too much importance to the sexual aspects of their relationship,for good or for bad?Sex is in every human being-in ones more than in others... #)-and it´s logical also that is present in the life of two persons who wished each other,but also loved and longed each other...If sex is a part of love and live,what does it matter,as LJN says,how many times they f*** or only kiss and how many times we see it?-sorry for the word but,why you ´re so afraid of it?Hee in Spain it´s very common to say and m ore in Catalan,where is used to reinforce some actions,not  necessarily sexuals... *o) again;  ~) Pierre...-.My humble opinion.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline myprivatejack

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 15750
  • Gender: Female
  • It could be like this,just like this...always
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #221 on: Oct 27, 2007, 11:52 AM »
 *o) for the 10.750th time.All right,you´ve  done it¡ Do you see how I´m right? I´ve written f*** with all the letters and,by posting my message,it´s written only f***¡ OMG, censorship? ^^)
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline chameau

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 28148
  • Gender: Male
  • Miss ya little darlin'
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #222 on: Oct 27, 2007, 12:17 PM »
Modedator's hat is on:  Once again, this thread has a tendency to go off topic, if you want to chit chat, there are plenty of places on this forum.  And yes there is an automatic filter to "edit some words", please refer to our guidelines about the usage of proper wording. ;)
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #223 on: Oct 27, 2007, 11:44 PM »
Modedator's hat is on:  Once again, this thread has a tendency to go off topic, if you want to chit chat, there are plenty of places on this forum.  And yes there is an automatic filter to "edit some words", please refer to our guidelines about the usage of proper wording. ;)
You are so cute with your moderator's hat on, Chameau,  <^( :^^)

myprivatejack, babytammy7, I am glad to learn about an European perspective of the sex scenes, and you brought up an interesting point that I am not sure anyone else has covered. Please let me know if I am wrong. Namely, why is it, that the two cowboys are so reluctant to talk about their feelings? I think it is the central theme that Anne Proulx makes in the short story. These stoic reticent cowboys are confronted with a love that they did not understand, and has no vocabulary to handle it, as Ennis said, there ain't no reins on this one. They simply lived it, first in the tent at night, then out in the open under the warm sun, by the fire in the evening and so on. They didn't talk about it. The closest they did was when Jack related to Ennis how much he missed him, and when Ennis talked about Earl and Rich. The rest of the time, they simply didn't talk about the love of their life that is nobody else's business.

Is it a North American male thing? At least, the non-metromale? Cowboys don't cry, they put up. No need to talk about things, when getting the job done is what's important.

Perhaps all the new direction our Canadian and American society has been heading is correct. Men need to learn to communicate their feelings, their emotion, more openly and with more awareness, so that they can deal with what are truly important in life.

When we can talk about sex openly, without shame and innuendo, without snickers or misconception, without assumptions or prejudgement, that's when boys and men will be able to take reins of their own feelings, and make them good feelings. We don't need to be explicit, or do we? What's the difference between using the f word, and saying having sex (other than the extra letters), what about making love? Do all the euphemism distract from the power of the most primitive instinct we have? Isn't that the sole reason for the fascination with it in all media, including the fanfic? Sex is the oldest and most powerful addiction known to men. Women know this and often use it to their advantage, and also often fall victim to it. What is the answer? Does the Scandinavian experiment work? When sex becomes as common as love, no big deal, except as a celebration of two people's feelings and life? We know for certain that the Victorian or British experiment failed. No offense intended, but making sex a sinful shameful act only makes it more powerful, but uncontrolled, uncontrollable... We need a middle ground that makes sex a celebration, but with full awareness of its power and consequences. It is not just another word, but a sacred commitment between two people, not to be taken lightly, but also not to be hidden under layers of clothing, physical nor metaphorical.

Would I change the sex scenes in the movie? Not a bit, because they are perfect in the way they told the story. Would I have sex scenes in sequel to the movie? Absolutely, especially if the sequel is to explore fully Ennis' life after Jack's death.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #224 on: Oct 28, 2007, 06:06 AM »
You are so cute with your moderator's hat on, Chameau,  <^( :^^)

myprivatejack, babytammy7, I am glad to learn about an European perspective of the sex scenes, and you brought up an interesting point that I am not sure anyone else has covered. Please let me know if I am wrong. Namely, why is it, that the two cowboys are so reluctant to talk about their feelings? I think it is the central theme that Anne Proulx makes in the short story. These stoic reticent cowboys are confronted with a love that they did not understand, and has no vocabulary to handle it, as Ennis said, there ain't no reins on this one. They simply lived it, first in the tent at night, then out in the open under the warm sun, by the fire in the evening and so on. They didn't talk about it. The closest they did was when Jack related to Ennis how much he missed him, and when Ennis talked about Earl and Rich. The rest of the time, they simply didn't talk about the love of their life that is nobody else's business.

Is it a North American male thing? At least, the non-metromale? Cowboys don't cry, they put up. No need to talk about things, when getting the job done is what's important.

Perhaps all the new direction our Canadian and American society has been heading is correct. Men need to learn to communicate their feelings, their emotion, more openly and with more awareness, so that they can deal with what are truly important in life.

When we can talk about sex openly, without shame and innuendo, without snickers or misconception, without assumptions or prejudgement, that's when boys and men will be able to take reins of their own feelings, and make them good feelings. We don't need to be explicit, or do we? What's the difference between using the f word, and saying having sex (other than the extra letters), what about making love? Do all the euphemism distract from the power of the most primitive instinct we have? Isn't that the sole reason for the fascination with it in all media, including the fanfic? Sex is the oldest and most powerful addiction known to men. Women know this and often use it to their advantage, and also often fall victim to it. What is the answer? Does the Scandinavian experiment work? When sex becomes as common as love, no big deal, except as a celebration of two people's feelings and life? We know for certain that the Victorian or British experiment failed. No offense intended, but making sex a sinful shameful act only makes it more powerful, but uncontrolled, uncontrollable... We need a middle ground that makes sex a celebration, but with full awareness of its power and consequences. It is not just another word, but a sacred commitment between two people, not to be taken lightly, but also not to be hidden under layers of clothing, physical nor metaphorical.

Would I change the sex scenes in the movie? Not a bit, because they are perfect in the way they told the story. Would I have sex scenes in sequel to the movie? Absolutely, especially if the sequel is to explore fully Ennis' life after Jack's death.

OMG Lance, what a beautiful post!!!!  (t) Amazing......  (t) Words so nice and so real: Cowboys don't cry (boys don't cry......)

I totally agree with you!!! You know sometimes sex is the most powerfull way to express ourselves, 'cause body's language (corporal expression) have always been more necessary and meaningfull than words, as we say in Spain: one picture is more valuable than 1ooo words. And you know that some people never say I love or something like that (my brother in law.....), but they always show their love in another way, and I think sex is often the way more used, at least for two cowboys I know, those who spent 20 years loving each other without say I love you with words, but saying it with caresses and kisses!!!

I love the BBM sex scenes as they are, I mean, I love and I will always love everything in BBM as it is.........EVERYTHING, though I'm dying of sadness...... :\'(

Big kisses Lance...... (You look like a cowboy, but I think you know how good is to cry...)
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2007, 06:26 AM by babytammy7 »

Offline jerasjr

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 15195
  • Gender: Male
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #225 on: Oct 28, 2007, 10:20 AM »
cowboy, great post - having grown up at the same time as our boys, the stoicism and non communication seemed oh so natural to me - we have to realize what another era that was, there was little evidence of the touchy-feely component to society there is now.  Not that it is a bad thing, it is just a different thing than the boys experienced.  Wiping away the many years that society has progressed is not easy, but that is what one must do to interpret or speculate on the hows and whys. 
To give an example, people imposed their own censorhship - men used profanity among men, but not when women were present, and women and young people did not use profanity period.  It would shock me to no end if my sister ever swore, while it does not when my daughter does at times...it was just the standard of the time.  It was not thought of as an imposition, but rather a consideration.
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2007, 10:29 AM by jerasjr »
"A mountain with a wolf on it stands a little taller."

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #226 on: Oct 29, 2007, 08:37 AM »
Assuming some of you would consider changing the sex scenes, you you prefer the changes to be more intense/explicit, or more subtle/understated?

An example for this would be the motel scene, where the SS is far more explicit and visceral than the more veiled scene in the movie.


Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #227 on: Oct 29, 2007, 09:00 AM »
cowboy, great post - having grown up at the same time as our boys, the stoicism and non communication seemed oh so natural to me - we have to realize what another era that was, there was little evidence of the touchy-feely component to society there is now.  Not that it is a bad thing, it is just a different thing than the boys experienced.  Wiping away the many years that society has progressed is not easy, but that is what one must do to interpret or speculate on the hows and whys. 
To give an example, people imposed their own censorhship - men used profanity among men, but not when women were present, and women and young people did not use profanity period.  It would shock me to no end if my sister ever swore, while it does not when my daughter does at times...it was just the standard of the time.  It was not thought of as an imposition, but rather a consideration.

Thanks, jerasjr, you all bring out the best in me, and Brokeback Mountain makes it easy for me to pour my heart out.

I grew in similar circumstances as well, and it's why the movie has such an impact on me. The younger generation sometimes doesn't realize how much has changed in twenty, thirty years since Stonewall. It is a big change.

To get back on topic, as you mentioned about self-censorship, and as tpe is asking about the change in sex scenes, I think it is the genius of Ang Lee that the scenes are as subtle as they are, because the imagination is more powerful, precisely because we often see what we want to see.

Making the sex scenes explicit would detract from that, fulfilling the wishes only of those who happen to have the same desires, and disappointing those who wish it differently, however minor the difference.

The softer gentler motel scenes are more emotional, less sexual, even there, the sparse dialogue, combined with great acting, conveys so much in our own mind, that the power of the scenes are felt only afterwards.

Yes, I'd love to see more explicit sex scenes, but not as part of the story or movie.

Yes, I'd love to see more of the subtle softer dialog in the motel room, because that would mean the cowboys are learning and struggling to communicate. That would be better than the tragedy at the end.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #228 on: Oct 29, 2007, 09:04 AM »
OMG Lance, what a beautiful post!!!!  (t) Amazing......  (t) Words so nice and so real: Cowboys don't cry (boys don't cry......)

I totally agree with you!!! You know sometimes sex is the most powerfull way to express ourselves, 'cause body's language (corporal expression) have always been more necessary and meaningfull than words, as we say in Spain: one picture is more valuable than 1ooo words. And you know that some people never say I love or something like that (my brother in law.....), but they always show their love in another way, and I think sex is often the way more used, at least for two cowboys I know, those who spent 20 years loving each other without say I love you with words, but saying it with caresses and kisses!!!

I love the BBM sex scenes as they are, I mean, I love and I will always love everything in BBM as it is.........EVERYTHING, though I'm dying of sadness...... :\'(

Big kisses Lance...... (You look like a cowboy, but I think you know how good is to cry...)

Thanks, babytammy7  :ghug: :^^), I hope you get out from PBS today, but if not, you know you can rely on us here.  :c) ^f^
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Edmund

  • Cassie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #229 on: Oct 29, 2007, 01:44 PM »
I am going to say that I found the first sex scene, in the tent, actually very shocking.

I saw the movie with a guy and a girl of my aquaintance who are in a relationship.  Being sat between them, looking at the sheep, waiting for something to happen between the two guys on screen, was pretty uncomfortable.  Because of course we knew going in that it was a love story about Jack and Ennis.  When it actually happened, it was so sudden.  The roughness of it was kind of worrying, and it certainly knocked me out of my complacency!

As to the other sex scenes, I think the actual depiction of sex was mostly irrelevant (other than the point the film made about Ennis flipping Alma over... poor Alma! ???), it was what it said about the story and the relationships that was important, just like any other scene.

In fact I think that this point bears repeating:

[...] It's interesting that the movie always has Ennis' arm warped around Jack when they are sleeping, spooning, but always with Jack holding Ennis when they talk. Just an observation. ;)

Just very touching.  :^^)

Edmund


manhattangirl

  • Guest
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #230 on: Oct 29, 2007, 07:49 PM »
Assuming some of you would consider changing the sex scenes, you you prefer the changes to be more intense/explicit, or more subtle/understated?

An example for this would be the motel scene, where the SS is far more explicit and visceral than the more veiled scene in the movie.



What bothered me about the scene in the motel, there was no eye contact.   They just finish making love, after 4 years of being apart.   "Look at me, after you had me", especially when you say to me, there nothing we can do in this relationship, and you're stuck with what you got here, making a living is all that you have time for now. LOOK AT ME.  

Before the FNIT, it seemed to me they had more eye to eye contact, more intimate with each other.  After that,  it seemed they couldn't look each other directly.  After shooting the elk, and eating their meal, at least they were sitting next to each other,  I don't know, may be it just me.

Sorry just blowing off steam     
« Last Edit: Oct 29, 2007, 09:57 PM by manhattangirl »

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #231 on: Oct 30, 2007, 12:44 AM »
What bothered me about the scene in the motel, there was no eye contact.   They just finish making love, after 4 years of being apart.   "Look at me, after you had me", especially when you say to me, there nothing we can do in this relationship, and you're stuck with what you got here, making a living is all that you have time for now. LOOK AT ME.   

Before the FNIT, it seemed to me they had more eye to eye contact, more intimate with each other.  After that,  it seemed they couldn't look each other directly.  After shooting the elk, and eating their meal, at least they were sitting next to each other,  I don't know, may be it just me.

Sorry just blowing off steam     

Hey, don't apologize, manhattangirl, your observation and analysis are always brilliant. I always learn something from them. And this case is no different. You are right on! The short story already pointed out that the dozy embrace was Ennis' way of avoiding hugging Jack face-to-face. You are right on when you pointed out that they should be looking into each others' eyes when talking in the hotel scene. It would have solved so many of their communication problems. At least it would help them. The little touchy-feely stuff from Ennis is romantic, but not very effective.

 (:) I would like them to be more communicative, as in the short story, AND more romantic, as in the movie. Well, AND more explicit as in the fanfic,  ;) but we can't always have everything we want.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline FlwrChild

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 18550
  • Gender: Female
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #232 on: Oct 30, 2007, 01:20 AM »

To get back on topic, as you mentioned about self-censorship, and as tpe is asking about the change in sex scenes, I think it is the genius of Ang Lee that the scenes are as subtle as they are, because the imagination is more powerful, precisely because we often see what we want to see.

Making the sex scenes explicit would detract from that, fulfilling the wishes only of those who happen to have the same desires, and disappointing those who wish it differently, however minor the difference.

The softer gentler motel scenes are more emotional, less sexual, even there, the sparse dialogue, combined with great acting, conveys so much in our own mind, that the power of the scenes are felt only afterwards.

Yes, I'd love to see more explicit sex scenes, but not as part of the story or movie.

Yes, I'd love to see more of the subtle softer dialog in the motel room, because that would mean the cowboys are learning and struggling to communicate. That would be better than the tragedy at the end.

I think you've really gotten to the crux of the matter, and this is very well said. It is a delicate balance to try to depict something very specific and yet have it resonate in a universal way. In this respect, I think Ang Lee (as well as Jake and Heath) is a genius. A little more or a little less might have caused it to lose some of its impact, leaving us feeling less of a connection to the characters we are so deeply drawn to as they've been presented.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #233 on: Oct 30, 2007, 07:24 AM »
I am going to say that I found the first sex scene, in the tent, actually very shocking.

I saw the movie with a guy and a girl of my aquaintance who are in a relationship.  Being sat between them, looking at the sheep, waiting for something to happen between the two guys on screen, was pretty uncomfortable.  Because of course we knew going in that it was a love story about Jack and Ennis.  When it actually happened, it was so sudden.  The roughness of it was kind of worrying, and it certainly knocked me out of my complacency!

As to the other sex scenes, I think the actual depiction of sex was mostly irrelevant (other than the point the film made about Ennis flipping Alma over... poor Alma! ???), it was what it said about the story and the relationships that was important, just like any other scene.
In fact I think that this point bears repeating:

Just very touching.  :^^)

Edmund




Welcome Edmund.

Very good point.  It seemed that the sex act itself became secondary to other overriding (emotional) concerns.  This is not to say that the sex was not beautiful in some of the other scenes: specifically the SNIT.  But I get your point: the sex was only a vehicle that translated into action something that resided deep within.


Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #234 on: Oct 30, 2007, 07:29 AM »
What bothered me about the scene in the motel, there was no eye contact.   They just finish making love, after 4 years of being apart.   "Look at me, after you had me", especially when you say to me, there nothing we can do in this relationship, and you're stuck with what you got here, making a living is all that you have time for now. LOOK AT ME.  

Before the FNIT, it seemed to me they had more eye to eye contact, more intimate with each other.  After that,  it seemed they couldn't look each other directly.  After shooting the elk, and eating their meal, at least they were sitting next to each other,  I don't know, may be it just me.

Sorry just blowing off steam     

I think that the fact that there was no eye contact was done intentionally -- this is so Ennis, no?  Even in the crucial scene up the mountain when they confront each other after the FNIT, you see Ennis NOT facing Jack (at least Jack gave a couple of glances in Ennis's direction).

And of course, there is no eye contact in the beautiful Dozy embrace...

The lack of eye contact hinted at Ennis's inability to totally accept his undeniable love for Jack.  Its basis in the ss can be found in Jack's valedictory:

Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.




Offline keren_b

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 23651
  • Country: il
  • Gender: Female
  • There will never be another Heath
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #235 on: Oct 30, 2007, 12:58 PM »
Assuming some of you would consider changing the sex scenes, you you prefer the changes to be more intense/explicit, or more subtle/understated?

An example for this would be the motel scene, where the SS is far more explicit and visceral than the more veiled scene in the movie.

I think I've said it before on several occasions but I'll say it again - the only scene in the movie that I view as a "sex scene" is the FNIT. The SNIT and reunion/motel scene are love scenes as far as I see it. There is a big difference between having sex and making love, the FNIT and SNIT are all about that difference. The emphasise in the SNIT and the motel scene was on feelings - not baring their bodies, but baring their souls. I love Ennis's vulnerability there, the way he just gives himself to Jack, puts his soul in Jack's hands. It's amazing. I'd be happy to have more of SNIT as long as it remains clear that this is a love scene, not a sex scene.

As for the motel scene, yes, I'd like it if Ang had kept it closer to the SS, but by that I mean mainly the dialogue. I don't mind so much not seeing them "jouncing a bed", but I would like very much to hear Ennis tell Jack the things that he told him in the SS - like him wretching in the alley and "I shouldn't a let you out a my sights", for example. or them sharing the same cigarette. In the SS Ennis had talked quite a lot in this scene, in the movie he hardly said a thing. So I would've loved it Ang kept more of the dialogue in.
The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.

Offline keren_b

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 23651
  • Country: il
  • Gender: Female
  • There will never be another Heath
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #236 on: Oct 30, 2007, 01:12 PM »
What bothered me about the scene in the motel, there was no eye contact.   They just finish making love, after 4 years of being apart.   "Look at me, after you had me", especially when you say to me, there nothing we can do in this relationship, and you're stuck with what you got here, making a living is all that you have time for now. LOOK AT ME.  

Before the FNIT, it seemed to me they had more eye to eye contact, more intimate with each other.  After that,  it seemed they couldn't look each other directly.  After shooting the elk, and eating their meal, at least they were sitting next to each other,  I don't know, may be it just me.

Sorry just blowing off steam     

I think that Heath has said specifically somewhere that he thought Ennis was a man who avoided eye contact.  And like Thomas has pointed out, there is a similarity between the motel scene and the dozy embrace. This time (the motel) it is Jack who wraps Ennis in his arms, but I get the feeling that Ennis would've been less comfortable in this intimacy if he had to look in Jack's eyes.
The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.

Offline myprivatejack

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 15750
  • Gender: Female
  • It could be like this,just like this...always
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #237 on: Oct 30, 2007, 01:16 PM »
I think I've said it before on several occasions but I'll say it again - the only scene in the movie that I view as a "sex scene" is the FNIT. The SNIT and reunion/motel scene are love scenes as far as I see it. There is a big difference between having sex and making love, the FNIT and SNIT are all about that difference. The emphasise in the SNIT and the motel scene was on feelings - not baring their bodies, but baring their souls. I love Ennis's vulnerability there, the way he just gives himself to Jack, puts his soul in Jack's hands. It's amazing. I'd be happy to have more of SNIT as long as it remains clear that this is a love scene, not a sex scene.

As for the motel scene, yes, I'd like it if Ang had kept it closer to the SS, but by that I mean mainly the dialogue. I don't mind so much not seeing them "jouncing a bed", but I would like very much to hear Ennis tell Jack the things that he told him in the SS - like him wretching in the alley and "I shouldn't a let you out a my sights", for example. or them sharing the same cigarette. In the SS Ennis had talked quite a lot in this scene, in the movie he hardly said a thing. So I would've loved it Ang kept more of the dialogue in.

Well said,Keren.I totally agree with you,without changing an only comma of all you say.I only would like to
remark that it is curious for me, as I said in a former occasion,how scenes like the motel one,are told in a fairly sensitive way in movie than in the SS,rather rougher.And how cliches,one more time,are broken being the movie made by a man,while the raw sensulity of the SS is due to a woman... :)
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #238 on: Oct 31, 2007, 07:39 AM »
I think I've said it before on several occasions but I'll say it again - the only scene in the movie that I view as a "sex scene" is the FNIT. The SNIT and reunion/motel scene are love scenes as far as I see it. There is a big difference between having sex and making love, the FNIT and SNIT are all about that difference. The emphasise in the SNIT and the motel scene was on feelings - not baring their bodies, but baring their souls. I love Ennis's vulnerability there, the way he just gives himself to Jack, puts his soul in Jack's hands. It's amazing. I'd be happy to have more of SNIT as long as it remains clear that this is a love scene, not a sex scene.

As for the motel scene, yes, I'd like it if Ang had kept it closer to the SS, but by that I mean mainly the dialogue. I don't mind so much not seeing them "jouncing a bed", but I would like very much to hear Ennis tell Jack the things that he told him in the SS - like him wretching in the alley and "I shouldn't a let you out a my sights", for example. or them sharing the same cigarette. In the SS Ennis had talked quite a lot in this scene, in the movie he hardly said a thing. So I would've loved it Ang kept more of the dialogue in.


Thanks keren.  I actually tend to agree with you here.  All the rest are truly love scenes.  Would you have preferred some of them to be sex scenes (for example, the motel scene)?  My feeling is that you don't.  I personally prefer love scenes to sex scenes...


Offline FlwrChild

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 18550
  • Gender: Female
Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #239 on: Oct 31, 2007, 07:44 AM »
Me too. And while it would have been nice to see some of the original dialogue, I have no problem with the way the motel scene was set. I thought it still conveyed an intimacy between the two men, especially the way that Jack leaned into Ennis's hair and neck when he spoke, and the way that Ennis would tug on Jack's arm for emphasis, even when he couldn't articulate certain thoughts or feelings. Still one of my favorite scenes in the movie. :)


Of course, most of them are.... :c)
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)