Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[LuvJackNasty]

I think I've said it before on several occasions but I'll say it again - the only scene in the movie that I view as a "sex scene" is the FNIT. The SNIT and reunion/motel scene are love scenes as far as I see it. There is a big difference between having sex and making love, the FNIT and SNIT are all about that difference. The emphasise in the SNIT and the motel scene was on feelings - not baring their bodies, but baring their souls. I love Ennis's vulnerability there, the way he just gives himself to Jack, puts his soul in Jack's hands. It's amazing. I'd be happy to have more of SNIT as long as it remains clear that this is a love scene, not a sex scene.

As for the motel scene, yes, I'd like it if Ang had kept it closer to the SS, but by that I mean mainly the dialogue. I don't mind so much not seeing them "jouncing a bed", but I would like very much to hear Ennis tell Jack the things that he told him in the SS - like him wretching in the alley and "I shouldn't a let you out a my sights", for example. or them sharing the same cigarette. In the SS Ennis had talked quite a lot in this scene, in the movie he hardly said a thing. So I would've loved it Ang kept more of the dialogue in.

Well said, Keren. I feel much the same- I love to see the love scenes as they are an important part of fleshing out the true relationship between the boys.

[chameau]

I agree with you all and maybe I'll be a bit O.T. but watching the sex scenes in latest Ang Lee movie (Lust, Caution) I was feeling uneasy since they are very explicit (I don't think they were faking ), it was like being a voyeur.  I prefer what Ang Lee did in BBM when in the short story the sex scenes were more raw.

[tpe]

I agree with you all and maybe I'll be a bit O.T. but watching the sex scenes in latest Ang Lee movie (Lust, Caution) I was feeling uneasy since they are very explicit (I don't think they were faking ), it was like being a voyeur.  I prefer what Ang Lee did in BBM when in the short story the sex scenes were more raw.

I feel the same way, actually.  Explicit scenes are fine, but they tend to make them sex scenes instead of love scenes.   Not that sex scenes can't be lyrical; they can.  However, it is much more difficult, technically and emotionally.

LOve scenes are by nature more suggestve, no?  Some of the most erotic scenes in cinema are not explicit, IMO. 

[lancecowboy]

I feel the same way, actually.  Explicit scenes are fine, but they tend to make them sex scenes instead of love scenes.   Not that sex scenes can't be lyrical; they can.  However, it is much more difficult, technically and emotionally.

LOve scenes are by nature more suggestve, no?  Some of the most erotic scenes in cinema are not explicit, IMO. 

Hi, tpe, you bring up an interesting point. Is it possible to have explicit sex scenes while still conveying love between Ennis and Jack?

If I understand it, sex is by nature a selfish act, it is about satisfying my needs, my desires, my lust for the object of my affections. The rest of the world be d@#$. This was FNIT, as keren said. On the other hand, making love is about fulfilling the needs and desires of the one I love, who loves me. This is SNIT; the is the passionate reunion kiss; this is the little caresses between Ennis and Jack, whether in the motel scenes or by the river, by the fire...anywhere.

Is it possible, to interweave the selfish passion of FNIT with the selfless love of SNIT without destroying the lyricism of the movie?

Personally, I think it is possible, when the selfish nature of explicit sex is transformed into selfless fulfillment of the other person's sexual needs, as in SNIT. The movie stopped short of explicit sex there, but I can see it continue in ways that show Jack's love for Ennis, and allowing Ennis to accept himself in the process, while surrendering to the feelings, and learning to love Jack in new ways. The explicit sex scenes would then be very different from the animal-like passion of FNIT, but explicit nonetheless, and adds to the storytelling of Ennis' journey of transformation, which, to me, IMO, is what makes the movie resonate with so many, especially with me. Just my humble opinions...I'm no cinematographer, just a movie lover. 

[keren_b]

I feel the same way, actually.  Explicit scenes are fine, but they tend to make them sex scenes instead of love scenes.   Not that sex scenes can't be lyrical; they can.  However, it is much more difficult, technically and emotionally.

LOve scenes are by nature more suggestve, no?  Some of the most erotic scenes in cinema are not explicit, IMO. 

I certainly agree Thomas - a scene does not have to be explicit in order to be erotic. If I may use another example here, there was a film with Daniel Day-Lewis and Michelle Pfeiffer and Winona Ryder - I think it was called "The Age Of Innocence". Michelle Pfeiffer was a countess, and Day-Lewis was in love with her, and in a certain scene she took off her glove and allowed him to touch her hand and maybe kiss it, I don't remember. And in an Interview with the cast one of them said that in that context of the Victorian times, the act of the countess removing her glove and baring her hand for a man to touch it was extremely erotic - that scene was more erotic than many explicit sex scenes in other movies could be.

In a similar way I find the SNIT one of the most erotic scenes I've seen, and there's no explicit sex there. The context, two men, cowboys no less, in rural conservative Wyoming back in the 60's, had a lot to do with that. Knowing the background and what it took for Ennis to kiss Jack and to stroke his body like that, how daring and "forbidden" it all was in Ennis's thinking, made the kiss alone a very erotic act. I think Ang Lee did a fantastic job with that scene.

[tpe]

Hi, tpe, you bring up an interesting point. Is it possible to have explicit sex scenes while still conveying love between Ennis and Jack?

If I understand it, sex is by nature a selfish act, it is about satisfying my needs, my desires, my lust for the object of my affections. The rest of the world be d@#$. This was FNIT, as keren said. On the other hand, making love is about fulfilling the needs and desires of the one I love, who loves me. This is SNIT; the is the passionate reunion kiss; this is the little caresses between Ennis and Jack, whether in the motel scenes or by the river, by the fire...anywhere.

Is it possible, to interweave the selfish passion of FNIT with the selfless love of SNIT without destroying the lyricism of the movie?

Personally, I think it is possible, when the selfish nature of explicit sex is transformed into selfless fulfillment of the other person's sexual needs, as in SNIT. The movie stopped short of explicit sex there, but I can see it continue in ways that show Jack's love for Ennis, and allowing Ennis to accept himself in the process, while surrendering to the feelings, and learning to love Jack in new ways. The explicit sex scenes would then be very different from the animal-like passion of FNIT, but explicit nonetheless, and adds to the storytelling of Ennis' journey of transformation, which, to me, IMO, is what makes the movie resonate with so many, especially with me. Just my humble opinions...I'm no cinematographer, just a movie lover. 

Like you, I do think it is possible.  And I don't think the sex act between 2 people is generally selfish.  I think when 2 partners in love do this, pleasing the other is just as important as pleasing oneself.

The bigger challenge is not to make the viewer focus on the explicit details.  And it's really not a question of desensitizing the audience to a particular act, is it?  I think it's a balance between the explicitness of the images and the underlying emotion that it seeks to project. 

This makes me think of what we mean by explicit.  I assume we mean exposure of the genitalia.  Or perhaps the strong suggestion of certain acts.  In any case, explicitness in and of itself has nothing to do with perception, no?  A lyrical love scene could inlove the same act as a rape scene.  But everything surrounding each scene should make the differences apparent.

[tpe]

I certainly agree Thomas - a scene does not have to be explicit in order to be erotic. If I may use another example here, there was a film with Daniel Day-Lewis and Michelle Pfeiffer and Winona Ryder - I think it was called "The Age Of Innocence". Michelle Pfeiffer was a countess, and Day-Lewis was in love with her, and in a certain scene she took off her glove and allowed him to touch her hand and maybe kiss it, I don't remember. And in an Interview with the cast one of them said that in that context of the Victorian times, the act of the countess removing her glove and baring her hand for a man to touch it was extremely erotic - that scene was more erotic than many explicit sex scenes in other movies could be.

In a similar way I find the SNIT one of the most erotic scenes I've seen, and there's no explicit sex there. The context, two men, cowboys no less, in rural conservative Wyoming back in the 60's, had a lot to do with that. Knowing the background and what it took for Ennis to kiss Jack and to stroke his body like that, how daring and "forbidden" it all was in Ennis's thinking, made the kiss alone a very erotic act. I think Ang Lee did a fantastic job with that scene.

Good example.  I remember that scene very well from Age of Innocence (you do know that I am a Daniel Day Lewis nut, too, no?)

As for SNIT, I agree that although it is a love scene, it is certainly much more erotic than a host of more explicit sex scenes from other movies.  It works on both an emotional and visual level.    And of course, a simple gesture as a kiss can be very erotic, especially in the case of the first one with the thread of saliva.  That detail in the scene may not be erotic for some, but I know you will agree with me that details such as these can be much more effective than more explicit acts.

[manhattangirl]

Was Ennis sexual drive lower?  Or when it came to Jack, Ennis was equal to if not higher, because it was Jack.   The reunion always fascinated me because it was showed Ennis uncontrolled need for Jack.  It gave us the idea that Ennis, no matter how controlled he seemed to be, loses it  when it came to Jack.

In the scene making love to Alma, there was no passion, but with Jack when he had him again,  you see that passion and that want.  The one thing I always wondered about Alma,  was it the  shock of seeing him kissing Jack or the the passion that was displayed, she closed the door as if she was witnessing a intimate moment between two lovers  and she was the intruder.  Did she see a passion in Ennis she never knew was there? 

Did she stay with him for so long waiting for something to happen?  I wished Alma challenged Ennis more sexually, she just laid there, complaining about how short on pills she was.

Just a thought.    

[Tony]

     Have been reading all the recent posts and very much appreciate the making of a distinction between sex scenes and love-making scenes.
Re-read the SS and was very disappointed in seeing, there, an instance of casual, animal, routine screwing outside, on the dirt.  It is something
nobody wants to admit, but the film, although rooted in the SS, broke free and became an independent work of art.  The film, IMO, developed
the love better, and downplayed the sex.
   Manhattengirl, you said you wished Alma could have brought out more passion in Ennis.  In the SS, there is a reference to her hating the sex
because of his preference for a type she resented.  But in the film, as Ennis begins to make love to her, she begins breathing deeply and
showing passion, so he must  have been doing something right to cause her to be aroused just by his touch, and she clearly, in the film,
expected what must have been routine-very satisfying sex.  That is implied both by her expectations and then, (perhaps a concession to the
SS), her grimace as he flipped her over.  She did arouse his passion, but, of course, could not fulfill his needs completely.
   There have been a lot of good, and some even great, posts, in this and similar threads.  And it seems to me, the best insights are provoked
when there is disagreement.  That gets us to thinking more, and learning more and finding ever-new beauty in BBM.
   Well, back to trolling around in old threads for me.  I like the current posts very much, but there is a treasure trove of older threads and
am always finding new stuff (new, at least, to me).   Tony.

[manhattangirl]

Tony,

The question isn't whether she was aroused by Ennis she was, but how could she keep him aroused enough keep him in her bed and not Jack's. Even married to the grocer, was having his kid, she still longed for Ennis. 

Your point is well taken, in fact she didn't like that particular sexual act, but not to try something else, something different, I don't know, would have been natural for her to try anything to keep the one she loved, even if it's a losing battle.  She didn't understand what was going on, but  to do nothing to  keep what was the love of her life, and that was Ennis, she conceded defeat when she saw Jack and Ennis kissing.  Her bitterness set in early, hung throughout the marriage.  My only thought is that if she did try to keep him, and that she would anything to keep him, would we draw different conclusions about Ennis and about Alma?   I'm just going on the topic of this thread.

Just a thought.

[Tony]

      Manhattengirl, you are, as far as I know, well within the topic of this thread.  And I don't know that there's much, if any, disagreement
between us--we just notice different stuff.  Cyberspace, as I have learned, prevents some of the necessary format of a good discussion,
as we lose some of the human empathy and interaction integral to communication.
     Alma does get lost from our memory, all too often.  In the SS, she dumped Ennis because he wasn't going anywhere. Materialistic, or
practical-take your choice.  In the film, though, we do see love, especially as you have pointed out, where she felt she lost him, when she
saw him kissing Jack, and with passion.
    What more could she have done?  Gosh--sexually? Romantically?   The two scenes with sexual content don't give many clues, or I'm too
dense to pick up on them.  Maybe it is the ABSENCE of good sexual scenes between them that blocks, and maybe was meant to block, any
travelling down that road.
    The only thing that comes to mind is that Ennis didn't seem unhappy with their sex life----he stayed with her until she challenged him
on the fundamentals, and he could not handle any kind of rejection, even if it was just her telling him to use a condom.
    What else could she have done?  It's too deep, but have referred before to her love being one-dimensional, whereas the love between
Ennis and Jack was friendship love, male tribal bonding love, family love, romantic love, and sexual love.  She couldn't compete on those
levels and yet....he still stayed with her.  Don't know what else she could have done, but then it was you, manhattengirl, who said it was
about knowing the partners needs and fulfilling them.  Somehow, Alma still left Ennis.....lonely.
   The absence of sex scenes and also romantic scenes (after the first year), is the best understanding we are given.   Tony.

[manhattangirl]

      Manhattengirl, you are, as far as I know, well within the topic of this thread.  And I don't know that there's much, if any, disagreement
between us--we just notice different stuff.  Cyberspace, as I have learned, prevents some of the necessary format of a good discussion,
as we lose some of the human empathy and interaction integral to communication.
     Alma does get lost from our memory, all too often.  In the SS, she dumped Ennis because he wasn't going anywhere. Materialistic, or
practical-take your choice.  In the film, though, we do see love, especially as you have pointed out, where she felt she lost him, when she
saw him kissing Jack, and with passion.
    What more could she have done?  Gosh--sexually? Romantically?   The two scenes with sexual content don't give many clues, or I'm too
dense to pick up on them.  Maybe it is the ABSENCE of good sexual scenes between them that blocks, and maybe was meant to block, any
travelling down that road.
    The only thing that comes to mind is that Ennis didn't seem unhappy with their sex life----he stayed with her until she challenged him
on the fundamentals, and he could not handle any kind of rejection, even if it was just her telling him to use a condom.
    What else could she have done?  It's too deep, but have referred before to her love being one-dimensional, whereas the love between
Ennis and Jack was friendship love, male tribal bonding love, family love, romantic love, and sexual love.  She couldn't compete on those
levels and yet....he still stayed with her.  Don't know what else she could have done, but then it was you, manhattengirl, who said it was
about knowing the partners needs and fulfilling them.  Somehow, Alma still left Ennis.....lonely.
   The absence of sex scenes and also romantic scenes (after the first year), is the best understanding we are given.   Tony.

Thanks Tony,  we're not far apart on this one.  I also love your interpretation of the levels of love between Jack and Ennis.  How can anyone compete against that, it goes far deeper than just the sexual act.

[trekfan]

Tony,

The question isn't whether she was aroused by Ennis she was, but how could she keep him aroused enough keep him in her bed and not Jack's. Even married to the grocer, was having his kid, she still longed for Ennis. 

Your point is well taken, in fact she didn't like that particular sexual act, but not to try something else, something different, I don't know, would have been natural for her to try anything to keep the one she loved, even if it's a losing battle.  She didn't understand what was going on, but  to do nothing to  keep what was the love of her life, and that was Ennis, she conceded defeat when she saw Jack and Ennis kissing.  Her bitterness set in early, hung throughout the marriage.  My only thought is that if she did try to keep him, and that she would anything to keep him, would we draw different conclusions about Ennis and about Alma?   I'm just going on the topic of this thread.

Just a thought.

I love the delineation between Sex and making love.   Which is the difference between FNIT and SNIT

and no matter how hard Alma may have wished it there was no way that she'd ever have Ennis' heart.  That rodeo cowboy lassoed it on BBM and he wasn't giving it back to anyone!  Held it close, beating next to his

 

[tpe]

Was Ennis sexual drive lower?  Or when it came to Jack, Ennis was equal to if not higher, because it was Jack.   The reunion always fascinated me because it was showed Ennis uncontrolled need for Jack.  It gave us the idea that Ennis, no matter how controlled he seemed to be, loses it  when it came to Jack.

In the scene making love to Alma, there was no passion, but with Jack when he had him again,  you see that passion and that want.  The one thing I always wondered about Alma,  was it the  shock of seeing him kissing Jack or the the passion that was displayed, she closed the door as if she was witnessing a intimate moment between two lovers  and she was the intruder.  Did she see a passion in Ennis she never knew was there? 

Did she stay with him for so long waiting for something to happen?  I wished Alma challenged Ennis more sexually, she just laid there, complaining about how short on pills she was.

Just a thought.    

I think it wasn't a question of sexual drive.  I think Ennis was able to hold off on self-gratification, as part of his innate stoicism.  Not that waiting diminished his drive; on the contrary, I think waiting made it more fierce.

[tpe]

Tony,

The question isn't whether she was aroused by Ennis she was, but how could she keep him aroused enough keep him in her bed and not Jack's. Even married to the grocer, was having his kid, she still longed for Ennis. 

Your point is well taken, in fact she didn't like that particular sexual act, but not to try something else, something different, I don't know, would have been natural for her to try anything to keep the one she loved, even if it's a losing battle.  She didn't understand what was going on, but  to do nothing to  keep what was the love of her life, and that was Ennis, she conceded defeat when she saw Jack and Ennis kissing.  Her bitterness set in early, hung throughout the marriage.  My only thought is that if she did try to keep him, and that she would anything to keep him, would we draw different conclusions about Ennis and about Alma?   I'm just going on the topic of this thread.

Just a thought.

I suspect that Ennis simply had sex with Alma -- in a mechanical fashion, probably imagining he was doing it with Jack to help him in his sexual arousal (hence, the favorite form of penetration with Alma).  The act of making love was probably reserved for Jack.  As keren had pointed out, there is a big difference here...

[tpe]

I love the delineation between Sex and making love.   Which is the difference between FNIT and SNIT

and no matter how hard Alma may have wished it there was no way that she'd ever have Ennis' heart.  That rodeo cowboy lassoed it on BBM and he wasn't giving it back to anyone!  Held it close, beating next to his

 

It's an important distinction, no?  Each one describes a completelt different act from the other, although the mechanics may be similar.

[lamusica]

I really don't care if there were more sex scenes so long as they were more of the love variety.  When they got older, I would have appreciated more tenderness instead of so much conflict.  The one brief pic of them sleeping in a tent with Ennis's arm over Jack is what I am talking about.  Not sex, certainly, but affection, protection, representing love.  After the reunion, there are few scenes of love between them.  I would have appreciated seeing more.  It would help clear up the question about the future, had Jack lived -- would he have left Ennis, or would he have stayed with Ennis?  Was it truly over, or a love that would NEVER be over -- never die?  As it is, we are left with their last scene together which answers no questions at all -- just makes us wonder what would have been.

I do consider the scene in Jack's bedroom when Ennis finds the shirts to be very sensual.  Ennis FEELS Jack in those shirts, takes them home where he can remember Jack whenever he wishes just by touching the shirts and remembering their togetherness.  The final scene in the movie is a love scene to me, also -- the way Ennis's eyes fill with tears and he swears to Jack.  Swears what?  Eternal love, I believe.

I guess when it comes right down to it, the film is as close to perfection as it could possibly be.  I don't need anything changed to love it.

[tpe]

I really don't care if there were more sex scenes so long as they were more of the love variety.  When they got older, I would have appreciated more tenderness instead of so much conflict.  The one brief pic of them sleeping in a tent with Ennis's arm over Jack is what I am talking about.  Not sex, certainly, but affection, protection, representing love.  After the reunion, there are few scenes of love between them.  I would have appreciated seeing more.  It would help clear up the question about the future, had Jack lived -- would he have left Ennis, or would he have stayed with Ennis?  Was it truly over, or a love that would NEVER be over -- never die?  As it is, we are left with their last scene together which answers no questions at all -- just makes us wonder what would have been.

I do consider the scene in Jack's bedroom when Ennis finds the shirts to be very sensual.  Ennis FEELS Jack in those shirts, takes them home where he can remember Jack whenever he wishes just by touching the shirts and remembering their togetherness.  The final scene in the movie is a love scene to me, also -- the way Ennis's eyes fill with tears and he swears to Jack.  Swears what?  Eternal love, I believe.

I guess when it comes right down to it, the film is as close to perfection as it could possibly be.  I don't need anything changed to love it.

Very interesting points here lamusica.  Yes, I did consider the scene in Jakc's bedroom as a sort of love scene, no?  Ennis embracing Jack through the shirts...

The love scene that I love very much in spite of its brevity is the one showing them inside the tent during their last meeting (Ennis's arm draped over a sleeping Jack) -- this one is completely devoid of sex.  And yet, in some ways, it is the one (other than the Dozy Embrace -- another sexless love scene) that shows them the most contented.

This scene in the tent and the Dozy Embrace make up a bookend in their last scenes together.  It is wonderful to note that in both scenes, you see Ennis embracing Jack from behind.

[lamusica]

The two scenes to which you refer above seem to be sexless, but they are sensual in the absense of the sex.  To me, both are excellent in that they show sex in its highest form--loving possession and caring protection.  Just as a parent loves to watch his/her child sleep, so I find it intriguing to watch Ennis and Jack sleep ( or doze).  It is when they are most unaware of the existence of the rest of the world.  As you said, they are most contented in these scenes.  To me, that means they are at home with one another, holding one another with no further expectations.

[tpe]

The two scenes to which you refer above seem to be sexless, but they are sensual in the absense of the sex.  To me, both are excellent in that they show sex in its highest form--loving possession and caring protection.  Just as a parent loves to watch his/her child sleep, so I find it intriguing to watch Ennis and Jack sleep ( or doze).  It is when they are most unaware of the existence of the rest of the world.  As you said, they are most contented in these scenes.  To me, that means they are at home with one another, holding one another with no further expectations.

Beautifully said!

In many ways, I prefer these "sexless" scenes to the more erotic ones.  The love expressed here goes well beyond the notion of sex as a physical act.  I would agree with you that even in the absence of the act itself, both scenes represent the apogee of what is normally expresweed beautifully as a phsical act: true and deep affection for one another.

 

[welshwitch]

Sex means so much to those involved but to watch it portrayed ( some might say faked) sometimes gives one the sense of being voyeuristic, whereas scenes of closeness, caring, sheer pleasure in the presence of another don't carry the same overtones and are much more meaningful to the onlooker/audience, IMO.

[jackster]

Beautifully said!
In many ways, I prefer these "sexless" scenes to the more erotic ones.  The love expressed here goes well beyond the notion of sex as a physical act. 

Yes, beautiful both of you lamusica and tpe. Sex and Love are not the same thing, right? There's really only three "sex" scenes in the movie that I can see: FNIT, Ennis & Alma (not so lonely now), Jack & Lureen (backseat). The others are really Love scenes that may, or may not, lead to sex. As you've both said the Love scenes are the really beautiful ones, and as WW has pointed out, I also feel like a voyeur when watching the others. Though FNIT is so animalistic it's almost unhuman and kind of like seeing a couple of dogs go at it. Sorry if that sounds crude (a bitch of an unsatisfactory situation!).

[lamusica]

Well put, jackster.  I sometimes think less is more.  The intimation of sex is more stimulating and thought-provoking, than actual hot and heavy sex scenes at times.  I think there is real skill and taste involved on the part of the director to know where to draw the line being enough and too much.  I don't mind sex scenes, but don't find them as memorable or meaningful than love scenes.  Just the barest hint of love is often extremely erotic to me, moreso than over-the-top, explicit sex which, as you have said above, tends to make the viewer feel a bit uncomfortable.

[tpe]

Sex means so much to those involved but to watch it portrayed ( some might say faked) sometimes gives one the sense of being voyeuristic, whereas scenes of closeness, caring, sheer pleasure in the presence of another don't carry the same overtones and are much more meaningful to the onlooker/audience, IMO.

Yes, sex is so intimate that it is hard to catch what lies underneath if you are a third party.   What we see in the SNIT, for example, is just a hint of the inner life and affection that drives the beautiful external actions.  And yet, the actions, no matter how beautiful, are mechanically reactionary to that inner life.  One has to be one of them to touch this inner fire.

[tpe]

Yes, beautiful both of you lamusica and tpe. Sex and Love are not the same thing, right? There's really only three "sex" scenes in the movie that I can see: FNIT, Ennis & Alma (not so lonely now), Jack & Lureen (backseat). The others are really Love scenes that may, or may not, lead to sex. As you've both said the Love scenes are the really beautiful ones, and as WW has pointed out, I also feel like a voyeur when watching the others. Though FNIT is so animalistic it's almost unhuman and kind of like seeing a couple of dogs go at it. Sorry if that sounds crude (a bitch of an unsatisfactory situation!).

Well, the FNIT does remind me of animals coupling. But at least Ennis had the courtesy to lubricate himself, something that animals usually dispense with, not accounting for natural lubrication, I guess.

[aintfoolin]

 A couple of days ago, a conversation started up between myself and a co-worker in which she started out saying " you know that part where the one  guy got raped in the tent?.... Raped?. I informed her that no rape took place in the movie , but it just goes to show that society in general is misinformed as to the sex scenes in this film. She had no idea how much. Needless to say, I was shocked that she percieved FNIT this way . She went on to say she found it disgusting and disturbing, I went on to say, I found it stimulatingly erotic. There's some real half-bakes  out here folks. To each his/or her own I guess.  This is the first time this has happened, and I found  it amazing to find myself having to defend Jack and Ennis. Has any one else had this experience?    Just a mention...

[manhattangirl]

A couple of days ago, a conversation started up between myself and a co-worker in which she started out saying " you know that part where the one  guy got raped in the tent?.... Raped?. I informed her that no rape took place in the movie , but it just goes to show that society in general is misinformed as to the sex scenes in this film. She had no idea how much. Needless to say, I was shocked that she percieved FNIT this way . She went on to say she found it disgusting and disturbing, I went on to say, I found it stimulatingly erotic. There's some real half-bakes  out here folks. To each his/or her own I guess.  This is the first time this has happened, and I found  it amazing to find myself having to defend Jack and Ennis. Has any one else had this experience?    Just a mention...

I've spoken to some, who debated whether Ennis wanted Jack, or punishing him.   There's no getting around it.  The sex act itself is veiwed as an act of dominance, of taking control, having power over another human being, not of love.  A punishment for some perceived wrong, a crime.  No getting past that, this kind of thinking is more common than you think.     

[aintfoolin]

Thanks MG,

I guess I was just caught off guard when she said that. I feel protective of the boys , after all  this time, I'm still in love with this movie!, but for once I'd like to have a logical intelligent conversation with these people. I suppose that's just the way of the world . Sucks though. Maybe next time I'll suggest reading this forum.....That would go over like a fart in church for sure.

[tpe]

Very interesting, aintfoolin and MG.

I have heard of people veiweing the FNIT as an act of domination, but I have not heard it referred to as a rape!  Did the co-worker think that it was not consentual?  Or was it the roughness of it all that made it seem like a rape?

[aintfoolin]

 Both, The roughness of the scene, and the way Ennis took control made her think it was a rape. She was very turned off to it.  Don't think she "got" the movie, or  the events that  led up to the scene. I feel she is some one who has negative, pre-concieved ideas about gays.