Author Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?  (Read 435185 times)

Offline chameau

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #270 on: Nov 19, 2007, 06:22 PM »
I don't get it, it was maybe a rough scene but Jack made the first move. ???
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Offline lamusica

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #271 on: Nov 19, 2007, 07:50 PM »
I think the co-worker who saw the FNIT as a rape needs to use a dictionary, then open her eyes when re-viewing the scene.  There was no rape in this movie.  However, I have some friends who also were repulsed by the FNIT.  My personal take on that is that they think that is the "acceptable" reaction for a middle-aged, heterosexual woman to have. There's no sense in arguing with people like that.  They think the proper reaction to such a scene is horror and rejection of the act; how can anyone argue with such a mindset?  Suffice it to say years and years of indoctrination have had their toll on attitudes, and some people are just not willing, nor able, to open up to possibilities.  Their loss.  I pity them.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #272 on: Nov 20, 2007, 08:03 AM »
Both, The roughness of the scene, and the way Ennis took control made her think it was a rape. She was very turned off to it.  Don't think she "got" the movie, or  the events that  led up to the scene. I feel she is some one who has negative, pre-concieved ideas about gays.

It was certainly NOT bondage in any form, by any stretch of the imagination...

The issue is probably with her rather than with the scene itself.  A lot of heterosexual porn is even rougher than that, and I doubt that she would call it rape!   ;D

 

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #273 on: Nov 20, 2007, 08:04 AM »
I think the co-worker who saw the FNIT as a rape needs to use a dictionary, then open her eyes when re-viewing the scene.  There was no rape in this movie.  However, I have some friends who also were repulsed by the FNIT.  My personal take on that is that they think that is the "acceptable" reaction for a middle-aged, heterosexual woman to have. There's no sense in arguing with people like that.  They think the proper reaction to such a scene is horror and rejection of the act; how can anyone argue with such a mindset?  Suffice it to say years and years of indoctrination have had their toll on attitudes, and some people are just not willing, nor able, to open up to possibilities.  Their loss.  I pity them.

Very well said.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #274 on: Nov 21, 2007, 07:12 AM »
A couple of days ago, a conversation started up between myself and a co-worker in which she started out saying " you know that part where the one  guy got raped in the tent?.... Raped?. I informed her that no rape took place in the movie , but it just goes to show that society in general is misinformed as to the sex scenes in this film. She had no idea how much. Needless to say, I was shocked that she percieved FNIT this way . She went on to say she found it disgusting and disturbing, I went on to say, I found it stimulatingly erotic. There's some real half-bakes  out here folks. To each his/or her own I guess.  This is the first time this has happened, and I found  it amazing to find myself having to defend Jack and Ennis. Has any one else had this experience?    Just a mention...
Surely your work mate is" possessed "by some of the many clichés that are stil around gay relationships,mainly in a physical sense.The scene is rough and hard in this sense,because we can´t forget that sexual relationship-even if it´s made with love-is passion,and passion can be,if not aggressive and less still violent,kind of rude.We´ve seen a lot of these scenes between man and woman that is supposed to be allowed,and we can think:-"Hey,look at these two,wow¡";but never:-"Poor girl¡This guy is raping her¡"...Why can be different if they´re two men?.I really don´t know... :-\\
In this scene,take two young uneducated boys struggling with their sensations-very clear and fairly assumed in one case,hidden and always denied in the other...-and,in the first of them,struggling already with his feelings-it´s not so clear in the other´s case-,who are lonely and hungry with love and,why not? sex.Add quantities of alcohol,warm and proximity and you´ll get a boy half-drunken and half-slept,suddenly awaken with a clear intention:OMG¡ what will be his reaction?... :*(  I´ve always thought that  Jack wanted another kind of reaction,with more "prolegomena"-this word I already used once but I don´t know if it´s well used in English-,more in the line of SNIT before arriving to the "same point" ^-^ ,more for showing Ennis his feelings and not only his whishes.
And also I´ve thought,even if Ennis reactions,whishes and feelings are much more messed,that he didn´t feel like doing as his mate wanted in this moment.IMO, his most impulsive side led him to take Jack,but his most reflexive(?) to say it in some way,side obliged him to mark who was in control then.I mean,he could wish Jack,but his mind told him he must be "the man" in the relationship,both phsycally and emotionally speaking,so his way of making love-having sex I´d say then...-to Jack was only a way to tell him:-"I may have my weaknesses,perhaps these are you,but I´m not queer;I´m a man and I´ going to behave like a man with you,no matter who you´re..."  :c)  I don´t know if all this makes sense or not,but I think that in this way it can be seen as a possession,a domination,a play of the "male role" without giving any opportunity to tenderness and sentimentalism-this is for women...-,as a way to protect himself and the role he had been thaught to have in life.But never can be seen as a rape,when we can speak about another very great and sad question,that´s not this.IMO.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Offline hpv

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #275 on: Dec 20, 2007, 02:36 PM »
No thank you very much tpe....  ^*()
"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close,the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."
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Offline keren_b

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #276 on: Dec 24, 2007, 04:17 AM »
I think the co-worker who saw the FNIT as a rape needs to use a dictionary, then open her eyes when re-viewing the scene.  There was no rape in this movie.  However, I have some friends who also were repulsed by the FNIT.  My personal take on that is that they think that is the "acceptable" reaction for a middle-aged, heterosexual woman to have. There's no sense in arguing with people like that.  They think the proper reaction to such a scene is horror and rejection of the act; how can anyone argue with such a mindset?  Suffice it to say years and years of indoctrination have had their toll on attitudes, and some people are just not willing, nor able, to open up to possibilities.  Their loss.  I pity them.

I think you've got a point there, well said. It's a shame she can't tell the difference between rape and passion, sex can be rough and agressive when both sides are passionate. And like Cham had pointed out, how can it be rape when Jack was the one who made the first move? He placed Ennis's hand on his c*ck, he grabbed Ennis when Ennis backed away and he was the first one to open his belt buckle. He made what he wanted very clear.
The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.

babytammy7

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #277 on: Dec 24, 2007, 08:09 AM »
Well said Keren!!! Very clear for me!!! And for Ennis too!!! No doubt about it!!!

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #278 on: Dec 24, 2007, 10:40 AM »
Is the word MPJ ias looking for " foreplay"? If so, it's something that may be wanted at some times and dispensed with entirely at others - depends on the feelings of the two particiapants but no foreplay though it may = suddenness doesn't = rape.

manhattangirl

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #279 on: Dec 26, 2007, 07:33 AM »
I think you've got a point there, well said. It's a shame she can't tell the difference between rape and passion, sex can be rough and agressive when both sides are passionate. And like Cham had pointed out, how can it be rape when Jack was the one who made the first move? He placed Ennis's hand on his c*ck, he grabbed Ennis when Ennis backed away and he was the first one to open his belt buckle. He made what he wanted very clear.

Not only that, Jack wasn't going to do anything to change the dynamics of that moment.   If this what Ennis wanted, this what he'd give him. 

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #280 on: Dec 26, 2007, 08:16 AM »
***
And also I´ve thought,even if Ennis reactions,whishes and feelings are much more messed,that he didn´t feel like doing as his mate wanted in this moment.IMO, his most impulsive side led him to take Jack,but his most reflexive(?) to say it in some way,side obliged him to mark who was in control then.I mean,he could wish Jack,but his mind told him he must be "the man" in the relationship,both phsycally and emotionally speaking,so his way of making love-having sex I´d say then...-to Jack was only a way to tell him:-"I may have my weaknesses,perhaps these are you,but I´m not queer;I´m a man and I´ going to behave like a man with you,no matter who you´re..."  :c)  I don´t know if all this makes sense or not,but I think that in this way it can be seen as a possession,a domination,a play of the "male role" without giving any opportunity to tenderness and sentimentalism-this is for women...-,as a way to protect himself and the role he had been thaught to have in life.But never can be seen as a rape,when we can speak about another very great and sad question,that´s not this.IMO.

Interesting take on the scene, MPJ.  I do feel that Ennis had teo conflicting emotions during the FNIT -- part of him not wanting to give in, and another part not wanting to let go.   Your comment about domination makes sense in this context, if we think of this as a way of reconciling the two conflicting tendencies, if you know what I mean...


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #281 on: Dec 26, 2007, 09:35 AM »
Is the word MPJ ias looking for " foreplay"? If so, it's something that may be wanted at some times and dispensed with entirely at others - depends on the feelings of the two particiapants but no foreplay though it may = suddenness doesn't = rape.

I think the key here is that Jack never said no. In fact, the debate has always been whether or not he mumbled "f@#$ me" or not. In any case, he was the initiator, he wanted it, and did not complain afterwards. Anyone who can view FNIT as rape has a problem with the definition of this terrible crime. It doesn't have to do with violence, or in this case passion. It can be as simple as a dose of drug that put the victim to sleep, and the perpetrator carried his wish in silence. It can be as complex as psychological control carried on over months or years, grooming the victim to accept the violation. Whatever the methods, the key is one person imposing his will on the other, without regard for the victim's wishes or well-being, both physical and psychological.

It is a sad commentary of our society when a passionate moment in a movie of great beauty can be mistaken for a terrible crime.

No debate or discussion can change a person's prejudices, at least not over coffee at work, only in public debate, early in one's education.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #282 on: Dec 26, 2007, 11:56 AM »
Is the word MPJ ias looking for " foreplay"? If so, it's something that may be wanted at some times and dispensed with entirely at others - depends on the feelings of the two particiapants but no foreplay though it may = suddenness doesn't = rape.
I don't understand this word,welshwitch,sorry...What I meant is that Jack in any case wanted sex,but surely more in SNIT line,it's to say; with more kisses and caresses,not only sudden sex and nothing more.As I said in my former post,showing Ennis which were his feelings and not only his wishes,with another way to arrive to sex...No matter if he said this or another word,what is clear is that he wanted and,so,he took the initiative to put "action" to something that was in the air (perhaps in his case,since the very moment he saw Ennis).And in this sense,I think FNIT is almost the most logical love or sex scene in BBM,bearing in mind the circumstances that surround them the previous hours and also several weeks before;IMO together with the ones between Ennis and Alma,almost like a duty...As a matter of fact,Alma was a conventional country girl whose horizon in life was get married and have children with the man she loved whom she'd live happy the rest of her life.If this situation carries in itself "the marriage duty" she accepted because it's one of the premises she knew she'd have to keep...-letting aside the fact that she was in love with her husband and also she was several years after the divorce-.For me,both scenes are succeeded;one is routine,the other an explosion of desire.And each one of them,bearing in mind the environment.
« Last Edit: Dec 26, 2007, 12:11 PM by myprivatejack »
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #283 on: Dec 26, 2007, 02:48 PM »
Not only that, Jack wasn't going to do anything to change the dynamics of that moment.   If this what Ennis wanted, this what he'd give him. 

Absolutely. Jack was enjoying every moment of the dynamics. He loved it whenever Ennis was passionate...like in SNIT, in the reunion, ... or when Ennis opened up, like when he talked more than in a year... There is no doubt that Jack wanted Ennis, and wanted Ennis to act, to be the aggressor, to give. Jack wants to be needed, not to dominate. Ennis may dominate in FNIT, but he also wanted to be protected and loved, as in SNIT. The feelings were mutual and passionate. I can't imagine anyone mistaking them. [shrugs] life is full of mysteries.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #284 on: Dec 27, 2007, 08:17 AM »
It is a sad commentary of our society when a passionate moment in a movie of great beauty can be mistaken for a terrible crime.

No debate or discussion can change a person's prejudices, at least not over coffee at work, only in public debate, early in one's education.

I agree.  But this is not surprising, given that there are places where choosing the person you love from the same gender constitutes a crime...  The love scene is pretty much bestial in the eyes of those who think this way -- so the reaction is not exactly unexpected in some quarters.


Offline keren_b

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #285 on: Dec 27, 2007, 02:18 PM »
When I first watched the movie it was before reading the story, so I realy wasn't prepared for that. I remember being a little stunned from the suddeness of it, from how quick it happened, with no words spoken... but I had no doubt that both sides wanted it.
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manhattangirl

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #286 on: Dec 28, 2007, 07:33 AM »
How much of the message of the story would have changed if Jack taken Ennis and not the other way around FNIT?  What is it they would be saying, thinking, how would their universe be altered? 


Offline keren_b

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #287 on: Dec 28, 2007, 11:10 AM »
Hmm, never thought about that... :s)
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #288 on: Dec 28, 2007, 01:35 PM »
How much of the message of the story would have changed if Jack taken Ennis and not the other way around FNIT?  What is it they would be saying, thinking, how would their universe be altered? 

Perhaps Ennis had closed himself more still in his shell and the aceptation of the situation would have been harder still for him,according to his idea of what being a man was-it´s not the same to take than being taken in this sense-.IMO this could have been more likely than a real acceptation of his gay side.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #289 on: Jan 02, 2008, 10:00 AM »
How much of the message of the story would have changed if Jack taken Ennis and not the other way around FNIT?  What is it they would be saying, thinking, how would their universe be altered? 

Would it have been a problem for Ennis later on?  You raise a very interesting question here.  I feel that it did matter.  Jack was certainly more versatile than Ennis -- in more ways than one...

I would like to know what the others think...




Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #290 on: Jan 06, 2008, 10:43 AM »
By letting Ennis take the lead at the point he did, says to me that Jack was still the initiator, the teacher, who was handing the reins over to Ennis, the student, the one who was seeking something unknown to him.

Jack did'nt have time to allow this to be turned into a "jockeying for literal positions" type situation. These were personal, delicate moments. If this is the way Ennis needed to have things , he was'nt gonna complain. Ennis could have stopped at any time being in the dominant position he was in. He did'nt.

 I think by  handling the situation as he did, Jack was allowing Ennis to freely cross the line on his own, without  force , coersion, or misinterpretation. I don't feel Ennis would have accepted the situation the other way around so freely the first time.. Also feel Ennis eqauated his masculinity with "dominance " and control. Jack, being more  open  and accepting of his tendencies was gonna get it anyway he could. I don't feel him being as threatened by being the "bottom" guy, but who knows exactly what Jack had in mind when he unbuckled that belt?  Don't ask me why , It's just a gut feeling.

 I did'nt see anybody trying to crawl away once the main event got underway or worrying about wether they'd be "respected in the morning"  ;) :)at the time either. It's a hard question. :-\\
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manhattangirl

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #291 on: Jan 06, 2008, 11:53 AM »
By letting Ennis take the lead at the point he did, says to me that Jack was still the initiator, the teacher, who was handing the reins over to Ennis, the student, the one who was seeking something unknown to him.

Jack did'nt have time to allow this to be turned into a "jockeying for literal positions" type situation. These were personal, delicate moments. If this is the way Ennis needed to have things , he was'nt gonna complain. Ennis could have stopped at any time being in the dominant position he was in. He did'nt.

 I think by  handling the situation as he did, Jack was allowing Ennis to freely cross the line on his own, without  force , coersion, or misinterpretation. I don't feel Ennis would have accepted the situation the other way around so freely the first time.. Also feel Ennis eqauated his masculinity with "dominance " and control. Jack, being more  open  and accepting of his tendencies was gonna get it anyway he could. I don't feel him being as threatened by being the "bottom" guy, but who knows exactly what Jack had in mind when he unbuckled that belt?  Don't ask me why , It's just a gut feeling.

 I did'nt see anybody trying to crawl away once the main event got underway or worrying about wether they'd be "respected in the morning"  ;) :)at the time either. It's a hard question. :-\\

Aintfoolin you're absolutely right.  He knew Ennis, he knew Ennis had to be guided into this.  Ennis didn't push he away, but the minute Jack unbuckle, signalling the next step to something couldn't be stop, Ennis dominance did kick in, and Jack wasn't going to do anything to stop it.   

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #292 on: Jan 07, 2008, 09:33 AM »
By letting Ennis take the lead at the point he did, says to me that Jack was still the initiator, the teacher, who was handing the reins over to Ennis, the student, the one who was seeking something unknown to him.

Jack did'nt have time to allow this to be turned into a "jockeying for literal positions" type situation. These were personal, delicate moments. If this is the way Ennis needed to have things , he was'nt gonna complain. Ennis could have stopped at any time being in the dominant position he was in. He did'nt.

 I think by  handling the situation as he did, Jack was allowing Ennis to freely cross the line on his own, without  force , coersion, or misinterpretation. I don't feel Ennis would have accepted the situation the other way around so freely the first time.. Also feel Ennis eqauated his masculinity with "dominance " and control. Jack, being more  open  and accepting of his tendencies was gonna get it anyway he could. I don't feel him being as threatened by being the "bottom" guy, but who knows exactly what Jack had in mind when he unbuckled that belt?  Don't ask me why , It's just a gut feeling.

 I did'nt see anybody trying to crawl away once the main event got underway or worrying about wether they'd be "respected in the morning"  ;) :)at the time either. It's a hard question. :-\\

Although I don't know if I agree weather it was a part of taking the role of mentor (as you say at the start of the last post), I do think it was no coincidence that the tractor Jack rode with Bobby was named VERSATILE.  Jack had fewer hang-ups, especially when it had anything to do with pinning down Ennis!  :)


manhattangirl

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #293 on: Jan 09, 2008, 07:44 AM »
IMO:

Jack was lost in Ennis, he tried to be too much in touch with Ennis's moods, fears, and needs that he laid down his own self interest in favor of Ennis's.  It started the FNIT, and that pattern followed both of them till the final confrontation when Jack finally said "well, what about me?"

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #294 on: Jan 09, 2008, 08:35 AM »
I do certainly think that jack tried to accomodate Ennis too much for too long.  I still wonder whether he really had a choice.  What would have happened if he broke down much sooner?  I know this question has been asked, but I wonder what would have happened, for example, if he had not been so accomodating in the FNIT scene...


Offline lamusica

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #295 on: Jan 09, 2008, 07:30 PM »
I do think this goes back to the idea that, in every relationship, one loves more than the other.  I think Jack's willingness to bend to Ennis's desires shows Jack was willing to do more to deepen and to preserve the love realationship between the two.  Yes, he finally got tired of it, but, had Ennis met him just half-way, at the end, the fight would have turned into some sort of compromise that was satisfactory to the both.  I think Jack was interested in Ennis to the very last, but just wanted some sign that his love was reciprocated, and Ennis wasn't too good at showing those emotions.
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #296 on: Jan 10, 2008, 04:12 AM »
I do certainly think that jack tried to accomodate Ennis too much for too long.  I still wonder whether he really had a choice.  What would have happened if he broke down much sooner?  I know this question has been asked, but I wonder what would have happened, for example, if he had not been so accomodating in the FNIT scene...



Had Jack broke down sooner, certainly it would have givin Ennis more time to reconsider his role in this thing  before fate intervened, but I don't think anything different would have resulted.  Absent some major catylast, I feel Jack would have just tried to move on.

Since Jack was more accepting, I don't think FNIT  would have gotten anywhere had he waited for Ennis to do it. Too many hangups, though I still feel Ennis was glad that Jack did make that first move. Jack would have handled the rejection a lot smoother I suppose.
 Had it been Ennis trying the first move like this ? then not have Jack accomadate him?  I feel it  would have shamed Ennis  right off the mountain and never tried it again. Not one for taking chances,  he'd be afraid Jack would judge him and think less of him. Also felt  Ennis still felt  way out of his element at that point though Jack eventually made him feel open to it.  Don't  think FNIT  would have worked any other way than it did Imo , Jack had to make that first move.. Fortunately the feelings were mutual.   

 What baffles me is how far they got  the  the first time. Modesty was NOT at play here for such inexperienced lovers.  MHO.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #297 on: Jan 10, 2008, 09:23 AM »
I do think this goes back to the idea that, in every relationship, one loves more than the other.  I think Jack's willingness to bend to Ennis's desires shows Jack was willing to do more to deepen and to preserve the love realationship between the two.  Yes, he finally got tired of it, but, had Ennis met him just half-way, at the end, the fight would have turned into some sort of compromise that was satisfactory to the both.  I think Jack was interested in Ennis to the very last, but just wanted some sign that his love was reciprocated, and Ennis wasn't too good at showing those emotions.

Thanks lamusica.  In spite of the rough edges in the FNIT, I do think that the act of submission was strangely empowering to BOTH of them, no?  IN the case of Jack, it certainly was a way for him to deepen the love, as you said.  It is usually forgotten that submission and surrender can indeed be a means of empowerment, as in some aspects within the tradition of Courtly Love, for example.

 

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #298 on: Jan 10, 2008, 09:30 AM »
Had Jack broke down sooner, certainly it would have givin Ennis more time to reconsider his role in this thing  before fate intervened, but I don't think anything different would have resulted.  Absent some major catylast, I feel Jack would have just tried to move on.

I sense that you are probably right here.

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Since Jack was more accepting, I don't think FNIT  would have gotten anywhere had he waited for Ennis to do it. Too many hangups, though I still feel Ennis was glad that Jack did make that first move. Jack would have handled the rejection a lot smoother I suppose.
 Had it been Ennis trying the first move like this ? then not have Jack accomadate him?  I feel it  would have shamed Ennis  right off the mountain and never tried it again. Not one for taking chances,  he'd be afraid Jack would judge him and think less of him. Also felt  Ennis still felt  way out of his element at that point though Jack eventually made him feel open to it.  Don't  think FNIT  would have worked any other way than it did Imo , Jack had to make that first move.. Fortunately the feelings were mutual.   

 What baffles me is how far they got  the  the first time. Modesty was NOT at play here for such inexperienced lovers.  MHO.

Wonderful, aintfoolin.  You bring out some interesting possible motivations here.  Again, I somehow sense that you are right about Ennis making the first move -- that Ennis would think he would be shamed and thought less of.  This seems to explain why Jack making the first move was enough for Ennis to take control so abruptly, once he was certain that Jack was more than willing to have sexual relations with him. 

Moreover, I think Ennis's abruotly taking control and lack of modesty once Jack had made the fierst move bespoke the idea that Ennis was perhaps thinking about this for a long time -- perhaps in terms of sexual fantasy.  Virgins during their firast time are known to react this way in may cases, especially among the young.  Another clue would be the total lack of foreplay, no?




Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #299 on: Jan 10, 2008, 05:51 PM »
 Thanks Tpe, you are so correct in saying that  perhaps Ennis had thoughts of this long before. In the preceding scene , what I've always felt a continuance to leading up to FNIT. It is the scene, they're sharing a bottle around the campfire and Ennis's shy sideway glances at Jack were telling. To me it spelled a  possibe fantasy even then on Ennis's part as well as Jack's . What would it be like?  Why would Ennis confess his virginity to Jack at this point? Why the little "hmmmmm" from Jack as if some little lightbulb went off in his head? Why would he try to distance himself from Jack by insisting on sleeping outside the tent?

Perhaps on an un-concious level Ennis could *feel* something inevitable was gonna happen between him and Jack. Something he could'nt control? At this point, complicated Ennis was fairly easy to read. I felt he  wanted to express his desire in some way. Frankly, I don't feel Jack expected things to go as far as they did, or he would have supplied the tent with some kind of lube with Ennis taking them "all the way" like this. Maybe he was only thinking in terms of maybe...mutual masturbation<? (please excuse my crudeness here) ,but he was'nt going to be choosy at that point. Anyway everything worked out to each others's  liking obviously.  Thanx  My take.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...