Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[tpe]

Thanks Tpe, you are so correct in saying that  perhaps Ennis had thoughts of this long before. In the preceding scene , what I've always felt a continuance to leading up to FNIT. It is the scene, they're sharing a bottle around the campfire and Ennis's shy sideway glances at Jack were telling. To me it spelled a  possibe fantasy even then on Ennis's part as well as Jack's . What would it be like?  Why would Ennis confess his virginity to Jack at this point? Why the little "hmmmmm" from Jack as if some little lightbulb went off in his head? Why would he try to distance himself from Jack by insisting on sleeping outside the tent?

Perhaps on an un-concious level Ennis could *feel* something inevitable was gonna happen between him and Jack. Something he could'nt control? At this point, complicated Ennis was fairly easy to read. I felt he  wanted to express his desire in some way. Frankly, I don't feel Jack expected things to go as far as they did, or he would have supplied the tent with some kind of lube with Ennis taking them "all the way" like this. Maybe he was only thinking in terms of maybe...mutual masturbation<? (please excuse my crudeness here) ,but he was'nt going to be choosy at that point. Anyway everything worked out to each others's  liking obviously.  Thanx  My take.

Precisely.  In the FNIT, he was resisting his true desires to the utmost.  So there is indeed a clear logic to the seeming abruptness and inevitability of the FNIT.  A change to soften it would probably not have worked that well in terms of what we have discussed.

[aintfoolin]

 Indeed Ennis was trying to resist them but at the same time liking the direction Jack was going. Besides Jack was not taking no for an answer by any means.. Ennis probably thought he was dreaming at first being awoken this way and instinctively fought Jack off.... at first. It did'nt take him long to stop fighting once he fully  realized what was really going on. Jack was obviously giving Ennis permission for whatever Ennis felt he wanted to do.  I think he had his own fantasy lined up, but I wonder if Jack was surprised that Ennis knew  to do as much as he did?  I mean, this being his "first time" and all...  To me this whole thing smacks of pre-destined, well thought out fantasy come true for both of them...just sayin...

[orangetruck]

....

Perhaps I am such a wooz to love the way Ennis stroke Jake's arm in the motel bed, or simply give it a shake or two in response to Jake's expression of love. That is more sexual and expressive to me, than any overt sex act. Or the way Jake whispers into Ennis' ear, softly, Brokeback got us good, don't it?

Brokeback got me good, that's for sure.

It's late, and I am just now discovering this thread and wanted to start with this post with which I very much agree - Thanks, lance.

[tpe]

Indeed Ennis was trying to resist them but at the same time liking the direction Jack was going. Besides Jack was not taking no for an answer by any means.. Ennis probably thought he was dreaming at first being awoken this way and instinctively fought Jack off.... at first. It did'nt take him long to stop fighting once he fully  realized what was really going on. Jack was obviously giving Ennis permission for whatever Ennis felt he wanted to do.  I think he had his own fantasy lined up, but I wonder if Jack was surprised that Ennis knew  to do as much as he did?  I mean, this being his "first time" and all...  To me this whole thing smacks of pre-destined, well thought out fantasy come true for both of them...just sayin...

I think Jack was a bit surprised, but he was versetile enough to adapt.  The initial indication was that he would dominate?  I think the FNIT could not have been done more effectively, even though the initial reaction would have been to think it was too abrupt.

[manhattangirl]

tpe and aintfoolin,

You're talking about what I've thought about myself.  There's a set of arbitrary signs that would lead us to think that the events of FNIT was already put into motion.   As they emotionally and mentally played that dance of seduction, they physically made moves to each, albeit slight,  but can be seen. 

Remember, when they first arrive with the sheep how far apart they were sitting, then as time went on the more comfortable they were with each other, the more they knew about each other, the nearer they physically got to each other.

The Elk shooting scene  locked it in.  That was the moment of trust, admiration, and attraction that lead to the FNIT, (I know I might on own on this), because when they were eating the elk meat, they were sitting right next to each other, a bond was formed. 

From then on they couldn't stay away too long from each other, or should I say Ennis sought out Jack from that moment on.    On that night of consummation of their relationship,  too late to go out to them damn sheep, Ennis stay in camp, too damn cold when the fire died out he didn't relight the fire but made it known he was suffering, and Jack calls him in.  "Ennis!"  "HUH?"

Now whether Ennis was truly shocked by Jack's move on him, he recovered enough to know what Jack wanted and what he wanted.  It was the last step to that dance towards each other that had to be completed.   

 

[Matt Nasty]

i dont think i would really change the sex scenes at all i mean why change something so powerful all of those sex scenes IMO were carefuly thought out and executed the desired affect brilliantly the rush of FNIT showing the kind of desperation pent up longing and also ennis' fear and ennis sex with alma an awkward kind of love making and also the sex scene in the car with lureen.
they were all thought out carefuly and changing them could unbalance the film.
as for why the sex scenes were not more explicit i think that too would ruin the film the film was a powerful love sotry not a cheap porn film... all of this is just my opinion obviously

[jackster]

The Elk shooting scene  locked it in. That was the moment of trust, admiration, and attraction that lead to the FNIT . . .
 

You’ve got my vote here MHG on the elk shooting scene as a prelude to FNIT. I feel this is a really pivotal scene (as you might have guessed from my avatar) in the evolution of the relationship. Ennis won’t compromise his own beliefs (we’re supposed to guard ‘em not eat ‘em) but, he will do whatever else he is able to do to please Jack and earn his respect and trust. A theme that follows them though the film. This is especially touching after his fall from the horse in which he was wounded, but which he saw as “letting Jack down” by losing all the supplies except the beans. It’s also a wonderfully humorous interaction of the boys joking and laughing where it’s obvious they love being with each other, they’re in love; they just don’t know it yet.

[Matt Nasty]

You’ve got my vote here MHG on the elk shooting scene as a prelude to FNIT. I feel this is a really pivotal scene (as you might have guessed from my avatar) in the evolution of the relationship. Ennis won’t compromise his own beliefs (we’re supposed to guard ‘em not eat ‘em) but, he will do whatever else he is able to do to please Jack and earn his respect and trust. A theme that follows them though the film. This is especially touching after his fall from the horse in which he was wounded, but which he saw as “letting Jack down” by losing all the supplies except the beans. It’s also a wonderfully humorous interaction of the boys joking and laughing where it’s obvious they love being with each other, they’re in love; they just don’t know it yet.

hmmm i agree

[lancecowboy]

Thanks, manhattangirl, jackster. I am constantly amazed at your brilliant analysis. I missed this dance you speak of that gradually lead upto FNIT. I knew there was something building in their friendship, but you put everything into sharper focus, and the picture is sweet. And I read somewhere about Ennis' leg positions while having their first fire side chat, talking more than in a year. His legs were open as well as his heart. At that scene, perhaps with the help of the whiskey and a day of riding, Ennis became unclenched (to use the phrase that Heath used describing Ennis), and opened up, in more ways than one.

Thank you. I will enjoy watching the movie more than before.

tpe and aintfoolin,

You're talking about what I've thought about myself.  There's a set of arbitrary signs that would lead us to think that the events of FNIT was already put into motion.   As they emotionally and mentally played that dance of seduction, they physically made moves to each, albeit slight,  but can be seen. 

Remember, when they first arrive with the sheep how far apart they were sitting, then as time went on the more comfortable they were with each other, the more they knew about each other, the nearer they physically got to each other.

The Elk shooting scene  locked it in.  That was the moment of trust, admiration, and attraction that lead to the FNIT, (I know I might on own on this), because when they were eating the elk meat, they were sitting right next to each other, a bond was formed. 

From then on they couldn't stay away too long from each other, or should I say Ennis sought out Jack from that moment on.    On that night of consummation of their relationship,  too late to go out to them damn sheep, Ennis stay in camp, too damn cold when the fire died out he didn't relight the fire but made it known he was suffering, and Jack calls him in.  "Ennis!"  "HUH?"

Now whether Ennis was truly shocked by Jack's move on him, he recovered enough to know what Jack wanted and what he wanted.  It was the last step to that dance towards each other that had to be completed.   

You’ve got my vote here MHG on the elk shooting scene as a prelude to FNIT. I feel this is a really pivotal scene (as you might have guessed from my avatar) in the evolution of the relationship. Ennis won’t compromise his own beliefs (we’re supposed to guard ‘em not eat ‘em) but, he will do whatever else he is able to do to please Jack and earn his respect and trust. A theme that follows them though the film. This is especially touching after his fall from the horse in which he was wounded, but which he saw as “letting Jack down” by losing all the supplies except the beans. It’s also a wonderfully humorous interaction of the boys joking and laughing where it’s obvious they love being with each other, they’re in love; they just don’t know it yet.

[tpe]

I echo lance's praise here.  And like zankou, I am more convinced that the sex scenes -- especially the FNIT -- don't really need to change.  For all its abruptness, the FNIT is is every sense of the word a consummation -- an act of completeion of something that was already in development deep within them.  The abruptness is an illusion.

[aintfoolin]

Great posts here from all, but I'm struck by the contrast in reactions *the morning after*  for them. After FNIT there is tension and a sense of shame? on Ennis's part as opposed to the playful wrestling scene following SNIT.

 Though I believe it was something Ennis wanted in both cases, what transpired in Ennis's mind to elicit such different reactions to sex with Jack.? Was it Ennis finally accepting that part of himself that made him give in to seduction? or was it something Jack said or did between  those scenes FNIT and SNIT to elicit this change of reaction in Ennis?
Jack was'nt the only one giving off *signals* leading up to these scenes, Ennis was too, but after the consummation, it was Ennis who felt he had let someone down. Himself? Jack? or both?It says alot about Jack, going up to meet Ennis in the pasture, following FNIT with the reaction he got from Ennis that morning, perhaps to get answers as well as to give them. I suppose Ennis respected and/or appreciated this gesture on Jack's part.

He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship  and love he had for Ennis.

[babytammy7]

Great posts here from all, but I'm struck by the contrast in reactions *the morning after*  for them. After FNIT there is tension and a sense of shame? on Ennis's part as opposed to the playful wrestling scene following SNIT.

 Though I believe it was something Ennis wanted in both cases, what transpired in Ennis's mind to elicit such different reactions to sex with Jack.? Was it Ennis finally accepting that part of himself that made him give in to seduction? or was it something Jack said or did between  those scenes FNIT and SNIT to elicit this change of reaction in Ennis?
Jack was'nt the only one giving off *signals* leading up to these scenes, Ennis was too, but after the consummation, it was Ennis who felt he had let someone down. Himself? Jack? or both?It says alot about Jack, going up to meet Ennis in the pasture, following FNIT with the reaction he got from Ennis that morning, perhaps to get answers as well as to give them. I suppose Ennis respected and/or appreciated this gesture on Jack's part.

He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship  and love he had for Ennis.

AMEN!! 

[myprivatejack]

Great posts here from all, but I'm struck by the contrast in reactions *the morning after*  for them. After FNIT there is tension and a sense of shame? on Ennis's part as opposed to the playful wrestling scene following SNIT.

 Though I believe it was something Ennis wanted in both cases, what transpired in Ennis's mind to elicit such different reactions to sex with Jack.? Was it Ennis finally accepting that part of himself that made him give in to seduction? or was it something Jack said or did between  those scenes FNIT and SNIT to elicit this change of reaction in Ennis?
Jack was'nt the only one giving off *signals* leading up to these scenes, Ennis was too, but after the consummation, it was Ennis who felt he had let someone down. Himself? Jack? or both?It says alot about Jack, going up to meet Ennis in the pasture, following FNIT with the reaction he got from Ennis that morning, perhaps to get answers as well as to give them. I suppose Ennis respected and/or appreciated this gesture on Jack's part.

He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship  and love he had for Ennis.

I don't think that Ennis felt exactly to have let someone down after FNIT; or maybe yes,his self image of manhood,the image he believed he had to show the others that had been broken into thousand pieces...Moreover,that night act had been a too abrupt,too quick answer to something that was floating in the air,yes; but surely Ennis-and to a lesser extent Jack-didn´t imagine before it arrived in this way,even if he was struggling with himself to make it arrive...Of course,I agree with you in that Jack's gesture played a great role in the necessary acceptation not only of what had happenned,but also of the reasons why it had happenned.And the morning after the SNIT he let his feelings win the confusion he'd had.

[manhattangirl]

Great posts here from all, but I'm struck by the contrast in reactions *the morning after*  for them. After FNIT there is tension and a sense of shame? on Ennis's part as opposed to the playful wrestling scene following SNIT.

 Though I believe it was something Ennis wanted in both cases, what transpired in Ennis's mind to elicit such different reactions to sex with Jack.? Was it Ennis finally accepting that part of himself that made him give in to seduction? or was it something Jack said or did between  those scenes FNIT and SNIT to elicit this change of reaction in Ennis?
Jack was'nt the only one giving off *signals* leading up to these scenes, Ennis was too, but after the consummation, it was Ennis who felt he had let someone down. Himself? Jack? or both?It says alot about Jack, going up to meet Ennis in the pasture, following FNIT with the reaction he got from Ennis that morning, perhaps to get answers as well as to give them. I suppose Ennis respected and/or appreciated this gesture on Jack's part.

He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship  and love he had for Ennis.

I think Jack understood that Ennis was treading in waters he never been before.   If we take the premise that Ennis first sexual encounter was not with Alma, but with Jack, how would some one feel?   Is it so surprising that Ennis would be in turmoil about what happened, knowing it was something he wanted, and the very "thing" he was warned about, and the very "thing" he knew he couldn't deny himself. 

Jack went to him on the hill as if to reassure him like shooting the elk it was nobody's business but theirs.  But Ennis had a preception of himself, "He wasn't queer", and his rules was "this is a one shot thing they had going on", from there he was able to handle it, like some kind of coping mechanism, that made being with Jack easier for him to handle,  Jack understood this and went along with it, and maybe to his own detriment sealed his own fate. 

My take.
 

[orangetruck]

Great posts here from all, but I'm struck by the contrast in reactions *the morning after*  for them. After FNIT there is tension and a sense of shame? on Ennis's part as opposed to the playful wrestling scene following SNIT.

 Though I believe it was something Ennis wanted in both cases, what transpired in Ennis's mind to elicit such different reactions to sex with Jack.? Was it Ennis finally accepting that part of himself that made him give in to seduction? or was it something Jack said or did between  those scenes FNIT and SNIT to elicit this change of reaction in Ennis?
Jack was'nt the only one giving off *signals* leading up to these scenes, Ennis was too, but after the consummation, it was Ennis who felt he had let someone down. Himself? Jack? or both?It says alot about Jack, going up to meet Ennis in the pasture, following FNIT with the reaction he got from Ennis that morning, perhaps to get answers as well as to give them. I suppose Ennis respected and/or appreciated this gesture on Jack's part.

He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship  and love he had for Ennis.

No real response from me right now, but I gotta say I really like this post. Gives a lot to chew on, and somehow it's not discussed as much as a lot of other aspects of the movie, at least not in these particular scenes this way. Thanks.

[athena0204]

The only things I'd change are these:

I wish we could have seen more of the second tent scene. It was so sweet and romantic.

I wish we could have seen more of the motel scene.

And also, I would add another scene on one of their later trips to BBM.

Other than that, I love the way this film was done, it truly shows that for Jack and Ennis, it was all about true love. It was that deep, pure, unbreakable bonding of souls. Sex, (or more appropriately, for Jack and Ennis making love, because that's what they did) was just one of the ways they expressed their true love for each other. It's all about them having the truest, deepest, most beautiful love, feelings that ran so deep, that they resonated in every part of their minds and souls.

[tpe]

***

He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship  and love he had for Ennis.

Priceless.

[tpe]

I don't think that Ennis felt exactly to have let someone down after FNIT; or maybe yes,his self image of manhood,the image he believed he had to show the others that had been broken into thousand pieces...Moreover,that night act had been a too abrupt,too quick answer to something that was floating in the air,yes; but surely Ennis-and to a lesser extent Jack-didn´t imagine before it arrived in this way,even if he was struggling with himself to make it arrive...Of course,I agree with you in that Jack's gesture played a great role in the necessary acceptation not only of what had happenned,but also of the reasons why it had happenned.And the morning after the SNIT he let his feelings win the confusion he'd had.

I think Ennis felt something akin to some form of remorse: remorse for having revealed himself to Jack this much; remorse for what his actions told him about himself. 

[tpe]

The only things I'd change are these:

I wish we could have seen more of the second tent scene. It was so sweet and romantic.

I wish we could have seen more of the motel scene.

And also, I would add another scene on one of their later trips to BBM.

Other than that, I love the way this film was done, it truly shows that for Jack and Ennis, it was all about true love. It was that deep, pure, unbreakable bonding of souls. Sex, (or more appropriately, for Jack and Ennis making love, because that's what they did) was just one of the ways they expressed their true love for each other. It's all about them having the truest, deepest, most beautiful love, feelings that ran so deep, that they resonated in every part of their minds and souls.

Somehow, I do feel that it was for the best that we were left hanging in SNIT and the Motel scene.    I think they became scenes of great intimacy, rather than sex scenes per se.

[Matt Nasty]

Somehow, I do feel that it was for the best that we were left hanging in SNIT and the Motel scene.    I think they became scenes of great intimacy, rather than sex scenes per se.

i dont like to call them sec scenes either really they are love scenes showing the closeness of ennis and jack showing their love was beyond just sex.

[manhattangirl]

The only things I'd change are these:

I wish we could have seen more of the second tent scene. It was so sweet and romantic.

I wish we could have seen more of the motel scene.

And also, I would add another scene on one of their later trips to BBM.

Other than that, I love the way this film was done, it truly shows that for Jack and Ennis, it was all about true love. It was that deep, pure, unbreakable bonding of souls. Sex, (or more appropriately, for Jack and Ennis making love, because that's what they did) was just one of the ways they expressed their true love for each other. It's all about them having the truest, deepest, most beautiful love, feelings that ran so deep, that they resonated in every part of their minds and souls.

All I can say is that SNIT, it was Jack night's as oppose to FNIT, he showed Ennis how to make love. 

The motel scene was mutual, both could hardly contain themselves, it was raw passion, love, and sex they've never known with anyone else.

My take.

[tpe]

i dont like to call them sec scenes either really they are love scenes showing the closeness of ennis and jack showing their love was beyond just sex.

All I can say is that SNIT, it was Jack night's as oppose to FNIT, he showed Ennis how to make love. 

The motel scene was mutual, both could hardly contain themselves, it was raw passion, love, and sex they've never known with anyone else.

My take.

I agree here. 

And I like what MG says: that it was in the SNIT where Jack teaches Ennis how to enjoy their love through intimacy.  The sex was a means to that end.

[orangetruck]

All I can say is that SNIT, it was Jack night's as oppose to FNIT, he showed Ennis how to make love. 

The motel scene was mutual, both could hardly contain themselves, it was raw passion, love, and sex they've never known with anyone else.

My take.

I personally (maybe it wouldn't be best in the film..) would like to see more of that, illustrations people!!  But mainly just oral and foreplay.   
Ok sorry that got 
Nice thread.

[Matt Nasty]

I personally (maybe it wouldn't be best in the film..) would like to see more of that, illustrations people!!  But mainly just oral and foreplay.   
Ok sorry that got 
Nice thread.

if they had showed more it would have left nothing to the imagination and desuaded some viewers part of the power of the film was some things were left to be interpreted the sex scenes could not escape this rule.

[orangetruck]

if they had showed more it would have left nothing to the imagination and desuaded some viewers part of the power of the film was some things were left to be interpreted the sex scenes could not escape this rule.

understood

The most important thing was that my mind was wandering 

Now, about that foreplay 

OH sorry! 

Does anyone find it more likely, there in the motel, that Jack had 'switched positions' with Ennis? This sort of thing has never been on the top of my to-know list. I'm more curious about the, well, foreplay of things. But the scenes were cut with artistry. I find it nearly impossible to figure they never went down on each other (hope that's not too blunt, or somehow crude). They are both full of love, and a sex drive..

[Matt Nasty]

understood

The most important thing was that my mind was wandering 

Now, about that foreplay 

OH sorry! 

Does anyone find it more likely, there in the motel, that Jack had 'switched positions' with Ennis? This sort of thing has never been on the top of my to-know list. I'm more curious about the, well, foreplay of things. But the scenes were cut with artistry. I find it nearly impossible to figure they never went down on each other (hope that's not too blunt, or somehow crude). They are both full of love, and a sex drive..

maybe they did engage in this at somepoint when we didnt see maybe thats not what they liked well never know in away its up to you to decide what they did...

[orangetruck]

maybe they did engage in this at somepoint when we didnt see maybe thats not what they liked well never know in away its up to you to decide what they did...

True. And in that respect, I know they did. 

[tpe]

understood

The most important thing was that my mind was wandering 

Now, about that foreplay 

OH sorry! 

Does anyone find it more likely, there in the motel, that Jack had 'switched positions' with Ennis? This sort of thing has never been on the top of my to-know list. I'm more curious about the, well, foreplay of things. But the scenes were cut with artistry. I find it nearly impossible to figure they never went down on each other (hope that's not too blunt, or somehow crude). They are both full of love, and a sex drive..

Our minds wander because what is shown is tantalizing enough for us to want to fill the voids in our heads.  Such the wonderful power of suggestion. 

As for the motel scene, I don't know.  I felt that they had switched positions in the SNIT, actually.  But again, this is only suggested, IMO.

[myprivatejack]

Our minds wander because what is shown is tantalizing enough for us to want to fill the voids in our heads.  Such the wonderful power of suggestion. 

As for the motel scene, I don't know.  I felt that they had switched positions in the SNIT, actually.  But again, this is only suggested, IMO.

Yes,I also feel they had switched positions in the SNIT,but only in a "geographic" sense.I mean,changing his lovemaking is something I think Ennis would have never allowed.I don't know if I'm rambling...

[orangetruck]

Yes,I also feel they had switched positions in the SNIT,but only in a "geographic" sense.I mean,changing his lovemaking is something I think Ennis would have never allowed.I don't know if I'm rambling...

I think changing his lovemaking is something that he wouldn't have allowed in a straight relationship; with Jack he had his moments of openness. I think the "bed" he shared with him was a very rare sanctuary but only in that very moment. Basically anywhere off of the mountain was a different story.
I believe almost everything including this opening of lovemaking, started in SNIT.