I agree, especially your last sentence.
It is a matter of of human nature, how much of our true selves are we willing to comfortably give up ,sexually or otherwise,to another person? and still retain our basic identity? When it come to love most have done things that they said they'd never do in the name of love, but it's a step by step process according to the situation. imo.
I suppose it's almost like couples stepping out of the *boundaries* of *traditional* sex and sampling the many other branches of sexuality. in order to *spice up* their sex lives. If one half the couple feels uncomfortable with their role or position, and reluctant, this can be a turn off. I feel that sex is really all in the mind, where thought processes begin. Keeping this in mind, a *bottom* Ennis in SNIT, even though he came willingly into the tent ready to accept his feelins for Jack and seeking confirmation of them in Jack's eyes, does not mean he was willing to change what/who he basically thought himself to be. the masculine, self-identifying, fearful, reluctant, controlling , and conflicted person he showed himself to be throughout the whole relationship. Even at the expense of Jack's emotional wee-being.
Even in the end, the phrase *bottom" can have various conotations. Either way Jack or Ennis could have *topped* or bottomed* depending on the position. I would'nt change a thing except a longer scene of this, but on the other hand,the element of it being *left to the imagination* of the viewer is inticing, and opens up wonderful, intriquing discussions such as this. Imo, Ennis was Ennis, in and out of the sack. We can respectfully agree to disagree about this and I respect everyone's opinion here. There is a good and fair case to be made from each one's perspective, and I also respect that. It's a tribute to this great film that we can see things differently and contributes to the beauty of this forum. I luv it. Thanx.
I totally agree with you AF and MPJ!!! So sorry to disagree Athena.
I don’t think Ennis was bottom in SNIT. You say that Ennis gave in to Jack because he loved Jack so much and he become a different person when he was with him. Well, I’ll try to explain myself:
1. That was Ennis second time in all his life. I know no person who has done “all” in his/her second time. You can love someone but that doesn’t mean you can go all the way in your second time. I don’t doubt that Ennis trusted Jack, but he was so young and scared and unsure, and he was all troubled in his mind about his sexuality, all his life he was, so I don’t think that he just could do things that need one or two thoughts about it. I mean, I’m not a gay man, but it’s difficult for me to believe that a top man in his second time having sex could be bottom. Maybe with time, but not in his second time, when he not even had time to full feel what being top is like, or learn about sex. It’s almost incredible to think that you can “experiment with” new things in sex when you has had sex once in your life.
I think SNIT was more about caresses and kisses and the desire to discover each other body, it's more about feelings and discovery of feelings than role-playing.
2. Like I say to Justin in SNIT Jack was only on top of Ennis but that doesn't mean that Jack was the top. I mean, how many women make love on top of their partners? And how many bottom men too? So the posture Ennis and Jack had in SNIT doesn't matter. And like AF said, we don't see the rest so later they could change positions again.
3. MPJ said that she doesn’t believe that Ennis, stoic, closed, and deeply broken because his childhood trauma, could change his way of thinking and his beliefs and lost his fears when he was in horizontal position. I totally agree!!! That was not Ennis. Ennis was scared and ashamed of being gay for 20 years, and not because of the society only, but because, like Annie Proulx said, he was homophobic too. So I can’t believe he was able to do “some” things when he could think about them like the kind of things that only queers do ((no-offense; it’s not my way of thinking). I can’t see him forgetting all his taboos and fears about being queer, not the second night.
Also AF said it well too. Jack was very masculine but he had no problem with his sexuality. Ennis did. Ennis had the constant need to prove his masculinity to himself and even to Jack (Ain’t queer) and definitively he could see being bottom like a more feminine role. And I don’t think he could accept to see himself like that. He had enough things to deal with in his head, making love with a man and so on, to deal, on top of that, with being bottom, something real queer in his mind. So I don’t see Ennis capable of such thing, at least not in his second time.
3. You said that he was different with Jack because of their love, and that they were
“truly equals in every way and true love allowed them to be”. Well, I think what you want or need in bed has nothing to do with being equals. In the way I see it, you say that both being top and bottom make them equals. But, then, how about us, women, who can only be one way? What about those gay men only top or only bottom? Are we not equals we our partners? Don’t we have then true love? I mean, I can be bottom, so to speak, but not top, so the way you has written it I have not true love then. Again, I don’t think that true love has nothing to do with which way you prefer. We are equals when we shared the same love, when we’re both giving and taking love, not only giving or taking. But, for sure, we are hardly ever equals in bed. I mean, I can do something to my lover but maybe my lover can’t or doesn't want to do that very thing to me!! You know, that’s true. But not being able to do some things doesn’t mean that me, or Ennis, or you don’t love and trust your lover. Like MPJ said, you can deeply someone with all your soul, but that doesn’t mean you want or, in Ennis case, you can do everything!! I can not do some things in sex and I tell you I really love. There are million of people out there so in love and not being able to do some things in bed.
So Ennis for sure was so in love, but it’s different to love and to be able to do all.
You said to that
they both "gave" and "took" equally throughout their relationship, but like I said before, “gave” and “took” equally is for me "gave" and "took" love. I think that’s possible without Ennis having to be bottom, because if not, what kind of love or relationship is that where you have to do all what you lover does in order to look equal? We have our own desires and needs and we can have a wonderful deep relationship without doing the same as our partners. Because like I said to Justin there are men who are only top or bottom during their whole life, and that has nothing to do with fears. They like it in some fixed way and they don't want and don't need to change roles to be happy and to have a satisfactory sexual life. Those people who are only bottom or top, and never switch places, love as intensely as Ennis and Jack, and for sure are equals in their relationship. So I don’t see why you say Ennis was bottom because he loved Jack. Ennis trusted Jack and was free with him even without being bottom. I don’t see the need to think that they were able to change roles the second time of Ennis. Their love is endless and amazing and beautiful and it doesn’t need to have a bottom Ennis to prove that.
4. You said too this:
“For Ennis to walk into that tent meant that when he was with Jack the "rules" no longer applied.” Are you saying that when you accept your feelings and your desires you have to break the rules? I don’t think so. You can decide to make love with someone or give in to your desires but that doesn’t mean that you have to break your own rules, your beliefs and to do everything!!! Ennis totally surrender was clear but speaking about love, not about ways to have sex. I don’t think that Ennis accepting his love for Jack means that he had to try all in sex. Ennis walked into that tent knowing he wanted more, walked into that tent to confirm his feelings and validate them, not to change roles in something he hardly knew like sex was.
BTW, what do you mean with their rules? Because we certainly DON’T know what rules Ennis and Jack had. Maybe Jack only wanted to be bottom!! We are not counting on Jack preferences!! Maybe Ennis only liked to be top. And again, if you are gonna tell me that Ennis liked or wanted to be bottom because he loved so much Jack, I’ll say the same again: to love deeply to someone has nothing to do with your sexual preferences in bed. Ennis could love with the force of a hurricane but his love didn’t oblige him to do something he wasn’t ready for. And Ennis for sure wasn’t ready to contradict who he felt he was outside of the sex.
5. I’ve quoted part of one of your posts in another thread. I hope you don't mind.
I do believe that Ennis was uncomfortable with sexuality in general, yes.
Ennis is still never, ever completely comfortable with sexuality, and perhaps he could never be; he still thinks there's something wrong about it.
I agree. But then if Ennis was uncomfortable with sexuality and he thought that there was something wrong about it, how could Ennis be bottom so easily his second time? Ennis had his own idea of sex and masculinity. I can see what he liked because the SS tells to us that he liked to do it in “that other way” with Alma. You said that he did that because like that he could imagine that she was Jack, but that really speaks about what Ennis liked to do with Jack and to Jack!!
Well, I suppose this post is a real mess. I’m so sorry about that and about my English, really.
We all have different opinions and points of view and it’s wonderful to share them all, because I respect everyone thoughts and I like them a lot, especially your passionate statements about love. But I think I’m in the Ennis as a top team with others brokies (Michelle, where are you when I need you?), the same I’m in Tony and Andrew's team speaking about Ennis being gay or not. I don’t write often in threads like this but if I do it now is because I really want to, not only respect, but understand the others points of view. And finally, I want to apologize if I am a completely ignorant about gay sex life!!
