Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[aintfoolin]

Thanks BT, sorry I must go to work now but wiil return soon. Bye.

[babytammy7]

Sorry if I keep writing and commenting this whole “Ennis bottom” thing. I didn’t want. I thought that we are not going to talk more about this OT, but I see that brokies keep talking about it, even the brokies who said that we had to put this one to rest. So well, here I am. I have some questions.

Well I believe the whole point of SNIT is to show that Ennis was indeed "bottom", otherwise they would have done the scene differently.

So did Ang Lee film such a intimate delicate scene to show that Ennis was bottom? I can’t believe that!!! In SS there is not SNIT, but we have Ennis in the motel scene admitting in some way his feelings for Jack, saying that “I shouldn’t a let you out a my sights.” In the film we have not that little moment of Ennis admitting what he felt for Jack. So Ang Lee and Diana Osama said in a interview that he filmed that SNIT and she wrote the scene to make up for the lack of that “I shouldn’t a let you out a my sights”, in some way, and show how Ennis felt. SNIT is about discovery of feelings, Ennis hungry for love and another human being. I think that when you love someone you just let go and give up, but I'm speaking about feelings and not about sex.

….he wanted Jack to show him to how to make love, sweetly, romantically, sensually. Ennis was enjoying being caressed, held, and kissed by another man, something you don't see in "raw" sex like FNIT.

Jack could show how to make love being bottom himself. Not only top men can. Ennis actually gives up,*lets go * just for loving Jack. He didn’t control his feelings, and he showed them Jack just by kissing him, being in a intimate way with him. He gave up and let go just by making love and not only for being bottom. If Ennis made love as a top he was making love too!!! So he gave up and let go too. Because he just let go just by the fact of being with another man “in bed” doing whatever. For someone like Ennis being top or bottom is just let go. Think about Jack. You said he was top on SNIT. So, he didn’t gave up to Ennis? He didn’t let go? You said that finally Ennis being bottom was making love. So Jack was not making love? To make love is what top men do too. As I said before, Ennis being top it’s making love too!! You say that Ennis was enjoying being caressed; of course like every person who makes love; and Jack was enjoying that too. You say that Ennis was bottom because Jack was holding him. Women hold men too in bed, hugging them tight. And say too that Ennis was the one being caressed and kissed, but NOT, because Ennis was kissing and caressed Jack’s chest!!! So being held and caressed doesn’t mean to be bottom. Gay men can be top and being caressed and held, not only the bottoms.
FNIT was raw, agree. Was sex, agree. But again that means that SNIT was about feelings and not about sex like FNIT so I don't think that Ang wanted to show another scene about sex because the whole point of that scene is show Ennis as a bottom like you said, then it would be about sex too. SNIT speaks about love and Ennis and Jack feelings, and Ennis could show his feelings being top too. Or what? Top men can’t show their feelings? They don’t make love? Jack was not showing his feelings if he was top?
What I understand reading your words is that the only way for Ennis to show and feel real love is being bottom. I think Ennis could do the same being top. If you are homophobic being top is as strong “let it go” “give up” as being bottom; it’s the same because in both ways Ennis was MAKING LOVE with a man.
BTW, you associate Ennis top with raw sex (FNIT) and Ennis bottom with make love (SNIT). But I have to tell that the making love can be so rough and wild some times and still it’s making love, because you are having sex with the one you love, so, rough and wild and whatever, still is making love. In fact in the Short Story Annie Proulx said to us that their sex up in BB was “QUICK, ROUGH, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises”; just in some way like FNIT.  And they loved each other, that’s for sure.

I just can't imagine Ennis getting up from underneath Jack in that scene...

I don’t saying the contrary. Top men can make love underneath bottom men, you know that. Straight men too. So why being underneath Jack means being bottom? That makes no sense to me. Sorry.

I think it's what he definitely wanted, it's the night that Jack showed him how to make love, and that's why the whole scene is there...to show how that night Ennis did what he really wanted to do deep down inside, he "let go".it makes perfect sense to me that he was "bottom" more times than Jack throughout the times they made love, because that's what he truly wanted.

How do you know what Ennis wanted? How can you be so sure? Just for a position on the floor? We are more complicated that that, especially Ennis….
And what about Jack?

Sure, he was still conflicted about being "queer", but simply to let a man touch him like that in the first place speaks volumes about the freedom Ennis felt that night,

Being able to let one man to touch you doesn’t mean you’re bottom. In that way, you’re bottom if someone touch you and you’re top if you touch someone? Jack is supposed to be top because he was touching Ennis, and Ennis bottom because he was touched? But like I said before, Ennis was kissing and caressing Jack chest, not only his lips but his chest. I think Jack switched the position to be able to kiss properly Ennis and not in that awkward position with his neck in a painful position. Jack could be kissed underneath Ennis too, but Ennis was so shy and scared so Jack had to switch the position to make the first move once again. But you can remember that Jack made the first move too in FNIT and he was bottom then.
Like you said SNIT speaks volumes about the freedom Ennis felt that night, but freedom of feelings not capacity to try new postures in sex when he had made love once in his life.

That night, he wasn't compartmentalizing about what was "acceptable" and what wasn't for him out in the larger society..

So in FNIT was he? Because having sex with a man is not “acceptable” for society neither…..

Sorry again for the long rambling. I don’t express myself well in English. I’d like to say again that I have not problem with Ennis being bottom, but with the arguments you give to me speaking about Ennis being bottom is to make love and to give up, because I understand then that one Ennis being top would not be able to make love and give up? It's unfair. I like to think, see and read that these are just our opinions, things will never know for sure….and I like when I can feel that people say those things thinking that it is “only their opinion” and not "an universal true" (I'm not saying you said the last one!!! Jesus, no). And I say here, that really this is my humble opinion and only my thoughts, not the true either.
I’lll just quit rambling about this thing if we all do it, I promise!!!    Love.

[athena0204]

Well I completely stand by everything I said. You keep completely misunderstanding my points. Yes, I know they were both making love in SNIT, and I believe Jack was "top" and Ennis was "bottom" that night.  I believe the scene was done that way to show us that. I don't feel SNIT was "too soon" at all. FNIT, the night before proved to be too soon, for Ennis did indeed have sex with Jack that night, but he was still too fearful, he still thought of himself as "in control", that's why we see Jack initiating it, but Ennis then taking him on all fours because in that way Ennis thought he was regaining control. The next night it was completely different. You can clearly see that he didn't have the desire to be "in control" the way he did in FNIT, he wanted Jack to show him, and he didn't see himself as giving in to Jack in being bottom, but giving in to what his real feelings were, what he desired. That night he completely gave in to his feelings, and it was the first of many times he would let his true self out with Jack, a true self that needed to be caressed and nurtured, and that needed to "let go". This is the way I see it, and I guess it's no use to just keep writing pages and pages about this. So I will put it to rest. Let's just agree that we disagree. I see it the way I see it, and you view it the way you do, so let's just end this argument. I know I said I'd put it to rest before, but then I come back the next day only to see huge paragraphs written in response. So I cannot resist to keep commenting, but if you put it to rest, then I will. We could write about this forever, like I said, and in the end, we'd still see it differently. So we agree to disagree on this one. Agreed that we are indeed officially putting it to rest. 

 One more thing I would like to add, that moves on off this topic and on to something else. I think Ennis was very brave for walking into the tent the second night. It was completely monumental for him to do that after all he'd been through. If I was him and had gone through the same, I think I would have been too afraid to even talk to Jack, no matter what deep feelings I had for him. I think people often overlook Ennis's courage.

[Matt Nasty]

Well I completely stand by everything I said. Yes, they were both making love in SNIT, and I believe Jack was "top" and Ennis was "bottom" that night.  I believe the scene was done that way to show us that. I don't feel SNIT was "too soon" at all. FNIT, the night before proved to be too soon, for Ennis did indeed have sex with Jack that night, but he was still too fearful, he still thought of himself as "in control". The next night it was completely different. That night he completely gave in to his feelings, and it was the first of many times he would let his true self out with Jack. This is the way I see it, and I guess it's no use to just keep writing pages and pages about this. So I will put it to rest. Let's just agree that we disagree. I see it the way I see it, and you view it the way you do, so let's just end this argument. We could write about this forever, like I said, and in the end, we'd still see it differently. So we agree to disagree on this one. 

 One more thing I would like to add, that moves on to something else. I think Ennis was very brave for walking into the tent the second night. It was completely monumental for him to do that after all he'd been through. If I was him and had gone through the same, I think I would have been too afraid to even talk to Jack, no matter what deep feelings I had for him. I think people often overlook Ennis's courage.

hmmm i agree, i also agree with you that ennis wasnt always on top during love making.

[manhattangirl]

Like in all great art, plays, and literature,  no one see, or reads something the very same way.  This is a great ride and I've learn so much from you guys, new ideas,  strong opinions, I love this.  And every day I come here and read more great stuff you guys lay down. Anyway this could be considered OT.

athena brings up something else, when Ennis walks into the tent.  I think he really couldn't help himself.   He had no choice, that feeling was too strong.   Jack I think kind of made it easier for him, "It's nobody business but ours".  IMO.

[babytammy7]

So I cannot resist to keep commenting, but if you put it to rest, then I will. We could write about this forever, like I said, and in the end, we'd still see it differently. So we agree to disagree on this one. Agreed that we are indeed officially putting it to rest. 

 One more thing I would like to add, that moves on off this topic and on to something else. I think Ennis was very brave for walking into the tent the second night. It was completely monumental for him to do that after all he'd been through. If I was him and had gone through the same, I think I would have been too afraid to even talk to Jack, no matter what deep feelings I had for him. I think people often overlook Ennis's courage.

My dearest Athena, thank you so much for this.  I just need it. We see it in different ways and we always will, so we are indeed officially putting it to rest!! AGREE!!!    

[orangetruck]

Like in all great art, plays, and literature,  no one see, or reads something the very same way.  This is a great ride and I've learn so much from you guys, new ideas,  strong opinions, I love this.  And every day I come here and read more great stuff you guys lay down. Anyway this could be considered OT.

athena brings up something else, when Ennis walks into the tent.  I think he really couldn't help himself.   He had no choice, that feeling was too strong.   Jack I think kind of made it easier for him, "It's nobody business but ours".  IMO.

  I haven't kept up here lately, but this one is short and sweet.

[tpe]

He dissed Jack at signal, but brokedown, He was angry at Alma yes, but enraged at the "Jack Nasty" remark, "Boys like you" well, Ennis threatens to kill him because he went to someone else.   He gives himself away.

Jack was love, but what was it with Ennis?  Love or an obession?  

I would want to think that it was a love that went against the grain -- a love in spite of himself.  The abruptness of the FNIT and the Reunion kiss seem to indicate great tension from within...

[tpe]

OT: should we make the passive Ennis question in SNIT a subject for a new thread?  Please feel free to create one, if you wish to discuss this further.  I think there is enough interest in the subject to warrant a new thread, no? 

[manhattangirl]

OT: should we make the passive Ennis question in SNIT a subject for a new thread?  Please feel free to create one, if you wish to discuss this further.  I think there is enough interest in the subject to warrant a new thread, no? 

Please tpe, start one, the views of SNIT, are varied, and deeply felt.

[tpe]

OK. 

[Matt Nasty]

Please tpe, start one, the views of SNIT, are varied, and deeply felt.

hmm that they are thats why i think we should maybe mellow it down part of the beauty of BBM was the fact you can interprate it how you want i really hope no one falls out over this.

[myprivatejack]

hmm that they are thats why i think we should maybe mellow it down part of the beauty of BBM was the fact you can interprate it how you want i really hope no one falls out over this.

You're right,Matt; maybe the greatest beauty of BBM is that there can be as many interpretations as readers or viewers can be also(Annie said something about this,what's really true...).And the way each one of us can interpretate Ennis opening to love and sex life,both physically and psychically,varies also according to our own experiences or way of seeing life.IMO.

[Matt Nasty]

You're right,Matt; maybe the greatest beauty of BBM is that there can be as many interpretations as readers or viewers can be also(Annie said something about this,what's really true...).And the way each one of us can interpretate Ennis opening to love and sex life,both physically and psychically,varies also according to our own experiences or way of seeing life.IMO.

i agree

[manhattangirl]

You're right,Matt; maybe the greatest beauty of BBM is that there can be as many interpretations as readers or viewers can be also(Annie said something about this,what's really true...).And the way each one of us can interpretate Ennis opening to love and sex life,both physically and psychically,varies also according to our own experiences or way of seeing life.IMO.

All the more reason to share, I feel, and I maybe alone in this,  we all come from different places with different life experience.   My experiences are not yours, my views are not yours, but we are here because of one thing our love for this story.  With deep respect for each other, courtesy and a good sense of humor,  we can share with each other,  this is our place.

Just my take.

[Matt Nasty]

All the more reason to share, I feel, and I maybe alone in this,  we all come from different places with different life experience.   My experiences are not yours, my views are not yours, but we are here because of one thing our love for this story.  With deep respect for each other, courtesy and a good sense of humor,  we can share with each other,  this is our place.

Just my take.

oh yer deffinatly true i think this topic was just getting tired the same points being thrust into the open i think it was just running out of discussion topics if you understand.

[orangetruck]

Oh get the hell off your soapboxes and go meet in the new SNIT thread and beat each other's brains out, you've off-topiced this enough! 


 

[manhattangirl]

Oh get the hell off your soapboxes and go meet in the new SNIT thread and beat each other's brains out, you've off-topiced this enough! 


 

ok.

[aintfoolin]

Oh get the hell off your soapboxes and go meet in the new SNIT thread and beat each other's brains out, you've off-topiced this enough! 


 

 None of the moderators have stated we are OT here. What's say Tony, you started this

[Tony]

   Gee, thanks, Aintfoolin, tempt me into this mess.  Well, it worked.  Far as I can tell, there were great interchanges from everybody and anytime people enjoy a subject, it shows up in their posts, which, it did.
  As far as being OT (meaning off-topic, not Orangetruck  ), we had all gone into the very same subjects before and none of the moderators waved the OT flag, so they've been consistent and let it roll.  They did not like my warnings on the Gay Bomb, or my sexual affair with the Swedish trawler captain.... so those issues were kinda sorta frowned on.  OT, then, must mean VERY OT, to get them riled.   Much love --- Tony.

[orangetruck]

   Gee, thanks, Aintfoolin, tempt me into this mess.  Well, it worked.  Far as I can tell, there were great interchanges from everybody and anytime people enjoy a subject, it shows up in their posts, which, it did.
  As far as being OT (meaning off-topic, not Orangetruck  ), we had all gone into the very same subjects before and none of the moderators waved the OT flag, so they've been consistent and let it roll.  They did not like my warnings on the Gay Bomb, or my sexual affair with the Swedish trawler captain.... so those issues were kinda sorta frowned on.  OT, then, must mean VERY OT, to get them riled.   Much love --- Tony.

My occassional sarcasm usually means I adore what's being posted, even if only for generel stimulation. I gotta say a couple things noted here sound strangely exciting. 

One thing I might change about SNIT: I'd have loved an extension as far as Ennis turning over to lay back on top of Jack.. But I think that would induce a pitstop over in that separate thread. SNIT is so damn passionate, hard to get out of the head. 

[aintfoolin]

Thanks for the input Tony,  ~)Just making sure you did'nt feel your thread got *hijacked* into something other than what you intended. I was starting to think you'd been tempted to go off on another excursion with your Swedish  trawler captain on a slow boat to China! .lol  but I guess that ship has sailed.  I understand the passion ....in both cases The Gay bomb?...well ... ahem...that's another story...

Like alot of this film, there is much open to suggestion. Various perceptions are and should be acceptable. Heath Ledger, God rest his soul, said the film should warrant more questions than answers, he was right.

[orangetruck]

Thanks for the input Tony,  ~)Just making sure you did'nt feel your thread got *hijacked* into something other than what you intended. I was starting to think you'd been tempted to go off on another excursion with your Swedish  trawler captain on a slow boat to China! .lol  but I guess that ship has sailed.  I understand the passion ....in both cases The Gay bomb?...well ... ahem...that's another story...

Like alot of this film, there is much open to suggestion. Various perceptions are and should be acceptable. Heath Ledger, God rest his soul, said the film should warrant more questions than answers, he was right.

Lovely 

Would anyone have added another intimate scene similar to SNIT or Motel, between binoculars and departure? Kinda curious about that..

[Matt Nasty]

Lovely 

Would anyone have added another intimate scene similar to SNIT or Motel, between binoculars and departure? Kinda curious about that..

maybe but im not sure it would be altogether neccisary it would be sweet but i think SNIT lets you know whats going on and anymore would just be going back over old ground, im not sure though.

[orangetruck]

maybe but im not sure it would be altogether neccisary it would be sweet but i think SNIT lets you know whats going on and anymore would just be going back over old ground, im not sure though.

Yeah, same here. I wouldn't put it past Ang to find a way, but he got the job done as is. There are times when I could have eaten more intimate moments, however. 'Specially when following SNIT's steps.

[aintfoolin]

 I would leave the scene, SNIT just as it is, open to perception. The only thing I wish to change is more romantic scenes when they get *older* and "seasoned * to each other.I love them older. SNIT is hard to top, but alot can be read into their sexual relationship and their overall personal one to each other when they've had time to really *tune in *to each's likes, dislikes, or preferences.

[orangetruck]

I would leave the scene, SNIT just as it is, open to perception. The only thing I wish to change is more romantic scenes when they get *older* and "seasoned * to each other.I love them older. SNIT is hard to top, but alot can be read into their sexual relationship and their overall personal one to each other when they've had time to really *tune in *to each's likes, dislikes, or preferences.

Oh I have always been drawn to the word "seasoned". I love your way of thinking here. 
 I'm very much with you, it would have been nice to see more of that then. 

[babytammy7]

I would leave the scene, SNIT just as it is, open to perception. The only thing I wish to change is more romantic scenes when they get *older* and "seasoned * to each other.I love them older. SNIT is hard to top, but alot can be read into their sexual relationship and their overall personal one to each other when they've had time to really *tune in *to each's likes, dislikes, or preferences.

I'd have really loved that Ang had filmed the last sex night they had in their last fishing trip. Annie wrote that last night full of passion in a very beautiful way and for me it would have been wonderful to watch that scene in the movie. I think that would have been very sensual, tender and really unique and special. AF, you know I ADORE older Ennis and Jack!!! Jesus!!!       

[Matt Nasty]

I'd have really loved that Ang had filmed the last sex night they had in their last fishing trip. Annie wrote that last night full of passion in a very beautiful way and for me it would have been wonderful to watch that scene in the movie. I think that would have been very sensual, tender and really unique and special. AF, you know I ADORE older Ennis and Jack!!! Jesus!!!       

hmm i think another scene at this point would be very nice 

[aintfoolin]

I'd have really loved that Ang had filmed the last sex night they had in their last fishing trip. Annie wrote that last night full of passion in a very beautiful way and for me it would have been wonderful to watch that scene in the movie. I think that would have been very sensual, tender and really unique and special. AF, you know I ADORE older Ennis and Jack!!! Jesus!!!       

BabyTammy, I share your enthusiasm very much.

That would be sweet. Both you and I love  older Jack and Ennis.! It would've been interesting to me to compare these two scenes . FNIT, when it was all new to one where they're older.  By then,  they'd  be settled, and comfortable, and unhurried . More tuned into  each other's preferences and  no longer newly *discovering* but fully realizing it.  No doubt they would slow things down and be even more sensual  with each other. "brilliant couplings"  indeed .  to the point....This was great sex.