Topic: You ever get the feelin' . . . .

[jackster]

I’ve gone back and watched the 1978 camping scene where Ennis asks Jack about Lureen  (normal an’ all?) and then talks about feeling that people know about his sexuality (You ever get the feelin’ . . . ).  Jack then suggests maybe he ought to get out, move to Texas. This is generally seen as an effort by Jack to help Ennis move on with his life that is then somewhat rudely rebuffed by Ennis.

In watching this scene again several times and studying Ennis’s face and tenor, it strikes me that this is maybe the only place (in the movie) where we begin to see Ennis try and “open-up” about his sexuality with Jack. It’s obviously difficult for him to do, but I’m now seeing it as his way of trying to open up a dialog with Jack about being gay.

Jack’s response, though trying to be helpful, was off the mark and reflected to a degree his misunderstanding of Ennis’s inner turmoil and Ennis’s economic realities.

Much like the scene 15 years earlier on Brokeback, when Jack is breaking up camp and Ennis rides in, Jack responds to Ennis’s frustration with Aguirre with a suggestion of a loan. Missing entirely Ennis’s real turmoil, his heartbreak at having to leave his partnership on the mountain with Jack.

Anybody else see Ennis trying to open up his feelings here?

[lancecowboy]

I’ve gone back and watched the 1978 camping scene where Ennis asks Jack about Lureen  (normal an’ all?) and then talks about feeling that people know about his sexuality (You ever get the feelin’ . . . ).  Jack then suggests maybe he ought to get out, move to Texas. This is generally seen as an effort by Jack to help Ennis move on with his life that is then somewhat rudely rebuffed by Ennis.

In watching this scene again several times and studying Ennis’s face and tenor, it strikes me that this is maybe the only place (in the movie) where we begin to see Ennis try and “open-up” about his sexuality with Jack. It’s obviously difficult for him to do, but I’m now seeing it as his way of trying to open up a dialog with Jack about being gay.

Jack’s response, though trying to be helpful, was off the mark and reflected to a degree his misunderstanding of Ennis’s inner turmoil and Ennis’s economic realities.

Much like the scene 15 years earlier on Brokeback, when Jack is breaking up camp and Ennis rides in, Jack responds to Ennis’s frustration with Aguirre with a suggestion of a loan. Missing entirely Ennis’s real turmoil, his heartbreak at having to leave his partnership on the mountain with Jack.

Anybody else see Ennis trying to open up his feelings here?

Thanks, Jackster, for opening up this discussion. I didn't want to get into it since I now realize a lot more people love Jack than they do Ennis. I love them both, but I connect with Ennis a lot more, so I was shocked at Jack's response. It was the most unbelievable part of Jack's character portrayal in the whole movie. I don't know how it went in the short story, but to me, at this point in the movie, the two of them seem to be growing apart. They can no longer communicate like the two nineteen year old that summer. (And I also found Jack's behavior that last day to be out of character, packing everything all by himself, leaving Ennis to think on his own on the grassy hill, only to rope him and rough house, instead of talking about getting together and what to do after they get down from the mountain, but that's another topic.)

I felt they did not connect when all Jack could talk about was big money and traveling, while Ennis talked about his problems. At the end, in their last meeting together, they were smoking weed, and talking about Ennis never finding anyone to get marry, or Jack's extramarital affairs. I found it interesting that Ennis jokingly responded to Jack's comment about scr#@ing the neighbor's wife...that he probably deserved to get shot by Laureen or the husband. It reflects his later extreme jealousy over Jack's doing them things in Mexico. It was also the beginning of the disconnect, when Jack tried to tell Ennis that sometimes, I miss you so much, I could hardly stand it, but Ennis didn't know how to respond. It seems to me that Jack needed Ennis to respond to his confession of love (like a lot of women expect from men (boy I just KNOW I am going get called a sexist pig at this point ) instead of what men expect from women), instead of doing what Ennis does best, simply respond to Ennis' feelings, and show Ennis his love from his action, by showing Ennis that he is understood.

I think Jack has a dream of living a sweet life with Ennis, but it was Ennis who deeply loved Jack to the exclusion of all else in life. When Ennis began to realized this, and opened up to Jack in a deeper conversation about his inner life, Jack looked blank and uncaring, suggesting maybe he should move. Ennis' reaction was resentment, no so much of Jack's suggestion, but the frustration that Jack did not understand, did not care. It seems to me that Jack's dream was based on his own desire for a sweet life with Ennis the man he admired and loved, to live together the life as cowboys that his father never showed him, but Ennis' love was deeper, surrendering and sharing with Jack what he could never share with anyone else. When Jack could not understand Ennis by the river, his frustration, and early childhood sense of loneliness came flooding back, making him fear that all those years of being understood, of passionate love with Jack, may have been a mistake,  may have been wishful thinking and an illusion.

What scared Ennis the most, I think, was to give up who he was as a man, to be with Jack, only to find out that Jack did not love him, as he loved Jack. The two shirts changed that fear to comforting/agonizing knowledge, only too late. But those two shirts may have been in the closet all those years, and Jack may not feel the same anymore. After all, he mentioned about bringing Randall up to the farm that spring. So perhaps Ennis was justified to think that Jack had changed. Although Jack's father mentioned that Jack kept saying Ennis was going to move in and built a cabin, but how often did Jack go to visit? Perhaps Jack hadn't mentioned Ennis for quite a while before that spring.

Perhaps, if Ennis and Jack had moved in together, and started a cow and calf operation, their lives together may eventually come to an end, like many couples who grew apart, or succumb to financial or other pressures. Maybe Jack will continue his extramarital affairs, as someone else suggests. Who knows...

Sorry, guys, but I guess I am allowing a cynical side to come out, from the disappointing people in my real life, especially some of the gay people who should know better. Come to think of it, these are the same people who don't respond to Brokeback Mountain the movie. Perhaps that's a good gauge of people's character. I'd hesitate to go as far as saying cry during Brokeback Mountain equal good, and not cry nor moved by it equal bad. However, I must say it is tempting.

Cynical people can never appreciate the beauty of the love that is a force of nature. Is this PBS again? Damn, I thought I was over it already.

Am I disappointed at Jack? Yes, a little bit.
Do I blame him? No, not at all, he was only being human, growing old, living a different life than Ennis, forgetting what it was like to be broke all the time.
Do I feel even more for Ennis, and feel his pain when he was disappointed, and share his peace and comfort when he found those shirts? Yes, absolutely. That will never change.

It will be like this, always, PBS and all.

[lightnin flat]

In that scene when they are riding the horses through the river i thought they both looked entirely miserable
and i do think it was ennis,s way of trying to open up because if it wasnt he would,nt even be saying you get the feelin that people looking at you suspicious then you go out on to the pavement and they all looking at you to.                                                                                                                                     I dont believe jack when ennis asked him if it was normal and all with lureen and jack said sure that look on his face tells me different.
  To me in this scene when jack said maybe you should try somewere different maybe texas i know he was trying to help ennis but i have always thought jack had a bit of a flippant attitude perhaps thats just me i dont know. 
   But yes i do think it was ennis,s way of opening up finally.

[welshwitch]

I think it's probably Ennis's way of trying to find out whether Jack feels guilty as he does; Jack doesn't seem to realise this or see that ennis upping stakes and moving hundreds of miles away if the morst unlikely thing in the world.

But when he asks about whether Jack feels as he does that people suspect him ( with the unspoken addition " of being gay") he is at least acknowledging that he is like Jack and that all the "I'm not queer"/"Me neither" stuff was just a smokescreen.

[LuvJackNasty]

I never really thought of it that way, I'll have to view it again keeping that in mind. I always saw it more as Jack really realizing what a hold Ennis's fears truly had on him. I hate to use the word "paranoid" but there is something about the look on Jack's face when Ennis is saying "You ever get the feeling...." Much like in the divorce scene when the white truck passes by and Jack sees it there too. I guess I just saw it as Jack putting another piece in the puzzle that is Ennis- and that the horrific scene he witnessed as a young boy really does have a strangle hold on him and I think Jack is as helpless to combat that as Ennis is. Now as for when they parted the first summer- I never saw Jack as blase about them having to leave- I think he was just trying to act casual for Ennis's benefit. I don't think an outpouring of emotion on his part would have done him any good. I don't think he missed the cues about what Ennis was really upset about because he felt just as sad too. That lasso scene, to me, wasn't him just playing around; it was him trying to lighten the mood in the only way he knew- I think he understood Ennis enough by that point in the summer and knew that there were certain things that could and couldn't be said and maybe if he had said something about how he felt there was that risk of rejection that he couldn't face either.

[FlwrChild]

I have commented before that I found it so interesting the difference in Jack's perception of Ennis's inner turmoil between the post divorce scene and this one.

In the first, when he sees Ennis distractedly watching the truck drive by in the distance, Jack seems to understand what this means. Coupled with what Ennis has just told him, he gets (painfully) that Ennis was not, in fact, waiting for an opportunity to start a life together, or even capable of contemplating it at that point. Heart broken, he leaves.

In the scene by the river, I was surprised that he didn't recognize the hidden implications to the questions that Ennis was asking, but my sense of his response was completely different from what I've seen here. First, I don't know if Ennis was actually trying to open a dialogue that would go anywhere on the topic, or if he just needed a sense of how unique or inapproriate his feelings were (in his mind) - did Jack experience the same sense of exposure that he did when they were apart? Etc.

As to Jack's reaction, I don't think that it indicates in any way a flippancy on his part. He saw that Ennis was uncomfortable in his setting, and instead of recognizing that the source of his discomfort was his own internal struggle and not his actual surroundings, Jack suggested Ennis move from that setting. While it wasn't the response that Ennis needed, I think that it was meant to be helpful. And Ennis's reponse to that suggestion was typical of his knee jerk reaction to scoff at anything that he didn't want to face too closely. In my opinion, they were, as usual, both well intentioned but completely unable to relate to where the other was coming from. I don't think there is any blame to be assigned to either. I was miffed with Ennis's response, because every time Jack makes an effort to be close to Ennis or move their relationship to another level, he gets shut out. At the same time, you have to hurt for how deeply conflicted Ennis is, and how much that restricts anything he can allow himself to do or feel.


I just have to respond briefly to the issue of who loved whom more, or what they each wanted, though I may be slightly off topic. I don't think there is any question of one loving the other more. I think they both loved fully, to the best of their abilities. Each gave up everything they could for the relationship, though they may not have been the same things. Ennis battled with his own self hatred, quit job after job, and lived in near poverty for twenty years to be with Jack. Jack set aside his deepest desire to build a life with Ennis, settling for what Ennis was able to give, driving 14 hours north to be with him whenever Ennis would allow, never able to even verbalize his feelings because it was more than Ennis could face.

People seem to have this image of Jack pursuing a higher lifestyle because he married Lureen and stayed with her all those years. Yet in the reunion scene, he clearly said all he wanted was a little cow and calf operation somewhere. He wasn't gunning for the big life. He just wanted to be with Ennis. Why wouldn't he stay with Lureen and take what that life could buy? He was just living in a holding pattern all those years on the off chance that one day Ennis would change his mind, and imo would have chucked Lureen and the money in a heartbeat. I thought his response to Ennis's remark about high class entertainment was very telling in that respect - "For what it's worth."

I think that's just one more indication that neither of them understood where the other was coming from in this scene, which seems to follow the pattern of communication they'd established right from that first summer; neither one quite able to say just what was on his mind. Maybe they'd never got much farther than that.

Ooh, I think I got back on topic after all. Phew.

[lightnin flat]

I have commented before that I found it so interesting the difference in Jack's perception of Ennis's inner turmoil between the post divorce scene and this one.

In the first, when he sees Ennis distractedly watching the truck drive by in the distance, Jack seems to understand what this means. Coupled with what Ennis has just told him, he gets (painfully) that Ennis was not, in fact, waiting for an opportunity to start a life together, or even capable of contemplating it at that point. Heart broken, he leaves.

In the scene by the river, I was surprised that he didn't recognize the hidden implications to the questions that Ennis was asking, but my sense of his response was completely different from what I've seen here. First, I don't know if Ennis was actually trying to open a dialogue that would go anywhere on the topic, or if he just needed a sense of how unique or inapproriate his feelings were (in his mind) - did Jack experience the same sense of exposure that he did when they were apart? Etc.

As to Jack's reaction, I don't think that it indicates in any way a flippancy on his part. He saw that Ennis was uncomfortable in his setting, and instead of recognizing that the source of his discomfort was his own internal struggle and not his actual surroundings, Jack suggested Ennis move from that setting. While it wasn't the response that Ennis needed, I think that it was meant to be helpful. And Ennis's reponse to that suggestion was typical of his knee jerk reaction to scoff at anything that he didn't want to face too closely. In my opinion, they were, as usual, both well intentioned but completely unable to relate to where the other was coming from. I don't think there is any blame to be assigned to either. I was miffed with Ennis's response, because every time Jack makes an effort to be close to Ennis or move their relationship to another level, he gets shut out. At the same time, you have to hurt for how deeply conflicted Ennis is, and how much that restricts anything he can allow himself to do or feel.


I just have to respond briefly to the issue of who loved whom more, or what they each wanted, though I may be slightly off topic. I don't think there is any question of one loving the other more. I think they both loved fully, to the best of their abilities. Each gave up everything they could for the relationship, though they may not have been the same things. Ennis battled with his own self hatred, quit job after job, and lived in near poverty for twenty years to be with Jack. Jack set aside his deepest desire to build a life with Ennis, settling for what Ennis was able to give, driving 14 hours north to be with him whenever Ennis would allow, never able to even verbalize his feelings because it was more than Ennis could face.

People seem to have this image of Jack pursuing a higher lifestyle because he married Lureen and stayed with her all those years. Yet in the reunion scene, he clearly said all he wanted was a little cow and calf operation somewhere. He wasn't gunning for the big life. He just wanted to be with Ennis. Why wouldn't he stay with Lureen and take what that life could buy? He was just living in a holding pattern all those years on the off chance that one day Ennis would change his mind, and imo would have chucked Lureen and the money in a heartbeat. I thought his response to Ennis's remark about high class entertainment was very telling in that respect - "For what it's worth."

I think that's just one more indication that neither of them understood where the other was coming from in this scene, which seems to follow the pattern of communication they'd established right from that first summer; neither one quite able to say just what was on his mind. Maybe they'd never got much farther than that.

Ooh, I think I got back on topic after all. Phew.

   
  Yes i believe jack would of give everything up for ennis without a second thought even his son he would not of hesitated i have always thought that.

[LuvJackNasty]

I just have to respond briefly to the issue of who loved whom more, or what they each wanted, though I may be slightly off topic. I don't think there is any question of one loving the other more. I think they both loved fully, to the best of their abilities. Each gave up everything they could for the relationship, though they may not have been the same things. Ennis battled with his own self hatred, quit job after job, and lived in near poverty for twenty years to be with Jack. Jack set aside his deepest desire to build a life with Ennis, settling for what Ennis was able to give, driving 14 hours north to be with him whenever Ennis would allow, never able to even verbalize his feelings because it was more than Ennis could face.

People seem to have this image of Jack pursuing a higher lifestyle because he married Lureen and stayed with her all those years. Yet in the reunion scene, he clearly said all he wanted was a little cow and calf operation somewhere. He wasn't gunning for the big life. He just wanted to be with Ennis. Why wouldn't he stay with Lureen and take what that life could buy? He was just living in a holding pattern all those years on the off chance that one day Ennis would change his mind, and imo would have chucked Lureen and the money in a heartbeat. I thought his response to Ennis's remark about high class entertainment was very telling in that respect - "For what it's worth."

Great post. They both loved in their own way- both sacrificed to keep the relationship alive. I've said it in another thread- I believe that Jack was lonely at his core and his marriage to Lureen was tolerable in that he could stay, not for the money, but to have someone in his life. Much like Ennis would have stayed with Alma had she not shown him the door. Lureen approached Jack, not the other way around and he lived with a father in law that saw him as a piece of crap. And I'm going to go a bit further off topic with regards to the shirts. I know it hurt Ennis to hear about the "other fella" but going up into Jack's room and finding the shirts was more of a confirmation of how much Jack loved him. After the confrontation scene, Jack was going to LF. If he was intent on quitting Ennis etc then why didn't he get rid of the shirts? He had the opportunity to do so. So despite what Old Man Twist said it was Jack's unspoken words with those shirts that meant everything to Ennis, told him everything he needed to know about the last twenty years; said all the things he couldn't say but yet felt over the years. But that's just how I see it and the beauty of these discussions is that we all see things differently, there is no right or wrong.

I think that's just one more indication that neither of them understood where the other was coming from in this scene, which seems to follow the pattern of communication they'd established right from that first summer; neither one quite able to say just what was on his mind. Maybe they'd never got much farther than that.

Ooh, I think I got back on topic after all. Phew.

Right, right from that first summer it said that they never talked about it (well it said the sex but one would assume the didn't talk about their feelings about it all either or maybe that's just me) so it was then that the pattern was formed. But I do see where Ennis was basically saying "I'm gay and I'm wondering if people know, if they can tell by looking at me." That came right after the thanksgiving scene with Alma and she never really elaborated on how she figured it out other than the "fishing trips." I'm not sure if I see him as trying to dialogue about them/him being gay but more of trying to see if Jack was ever confronted with being found out.

[lancecowboy]

I never really thought of it that way, I'll have to view it again keeping that in mind. I always saw it more as Jack really realizing what a hold Ennis's fears truly had on him. I hate to use the word "paranoid" but there is something about the look on Jack's face when Ennis is saying "You ever get the feeling...." Much like in the divorce scene when the white truck passes by and Jack sees it there too. I guess I just saw it as Jack putting another piece in the puzzle that is Ennis- and that the horrific scene he witnessed as a young boy really does have a strangle hold on him and I think Jack is as helpless to combat that as Ennis is. Now as for when they parted the first summer- I never saw Jack as blase about them having to leave- I think he was just trying to act casual for Ennis's benefit. I don't think an outpouring of emotion on his part would have done him any good. I don't think he missed the cues about what Ennis was really upset about because he felt just as sad too. That lasso scene, to me, wasn't him just playing around; it was him trying to lighten the mood in the only way he knew- I think he understood Ennis enough by that point in the summer and knew that there were certain things that could and couldn't be said and maybe if he had said something about how he felt there was that risk of rejection that he couldn't face either.

I honestly don't understand Jack very well, so I am thankful that you see the scenes differently. I  think you are right about lasso scene, that Jack was trying to play it cool, like he did all through the summer. The bloody nose was just an unfortunate accident that put the damper in the whole end-of-summer saying good bye business. If not for that, I think those two would do it one last time for old time sake. It's what Jack was thinking after that dozy embrace, the night before Ennis went back up the mountain, (and woke up in the middle of that snow storm, saying he'd stay with Jack the next night and let the sheep take care of themselves, and f@#c Aguirre - but the next night never came). They both longed for each other that last day. Ennis showed it by brooding, while Jack initiated the rough-housing to get it going. The bloody nose and Ennis' punch ended it. It's also why Ennis was afraid that Jack was sore from the punch, not just the punch itself, but the ending of the opportunity for just once more.

I also caught the divorce scene with the white truck and knew exactly what Jack was feeling, exactly what you said, that Ennis was deep in the closet and the divorce didn't free him at all, only replaced Elma with the children and child support. That's went he left, though saying see you next month outwardly, he was dying a little inside. From that scene on, Jack was a changed man, drinking more and brooding more, affecting even his relationship with Laureen.

I guess it was just shocking to see these two soul-mates drifting apart at the end, not loving each other as soul-mates should. I guess even the best of times come to an end, and they had to deal with reality when they come down from the mountain. The reality was, they leaved in two different worlds - Jack with his nice comfortable rich life, and Ennis with his nice struggling poor life. Once Ennis finished with paying for child support, when Elma jr turned 20 and Jenny passed 18, he was much better off, with a new truck, and putting up numbers on his trailer. I am thinking that's his first step towards settling down with Mr. and Mrs. Twist at Lightning Flat eventually. They don't have telephone, just like him, so they rely on the mail. He wants to make sure they can write him, and he them, taking up Mrs. Twist's offer to visit. The non-verbal communication between them was amazing to watch. The more I watch that scene, the more touching it gets. Heath, you are one hell of an actor.

Sorry...rambling on again.

Anyway,

When soul-mates drift apart,
even the gods shed tears of sorrow,
mourning the death of sweet happiness, always,
mourning the death of perfection made of imperfection,
mourning the return to two broken halves instead of one complete whole.

Yeah, that last scene... :\'( :\'( :\'(

All just because the broke down in communication, when Jack no longer understood Ennis, and Ennis being him, could not articulate his feelings better for Jack to understand...

I guess I learned from this that living Brokeback Mountain means to be a better communicator, to be more open with vulnerable feelings, to be stronger against the cruel arrows of the world, standing firm on ones own convictions, not allowing other's opinions to sway one from doing what is right. If Ennis only did that, and Jack, too.

[FlwrChild]

I guess it was just shocking to see these two soul-mates drifting apart at the end, not loving each other as soul-mates should. I guess even the best of times come to an end, and they had to deal with reality when they come down from the mountain. The reality was, they lived in two different worlds - Jack with his nice comfortable rich life, and Ennis with his nice struggling poor life.
 

I think they were definitely drifting apart in some ways over the years, because they were both hurting over what they couldn't have and couldn't articulate, each for different reasons. I do believe they were still showing love though, first just by showing up each time, and of course by AP's paragraph in the SS which says:

"One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough."

And the movie, which so smoothly shows them together in various intimate ways, besides just the sex: spooning in the tent, riding side by side, sitting together by the fire. They were working inevitably toward the final confrontation scene, and who knows what might have happened in November? But I'm drifting.

I just had to address again the idea of Jack in some kind of comfortable rich life, while Ennis wallows in poverty. True, their economic circumstances are quite different, but I don't think it had any bearing on their level of happiness. They were equally unhappy, because they couldn't have what they both wanted - to live together in peace. The SS clearly says that Lureen controlled the money in their marriage, and again I was struck by what Jack said in the scene by the river in the movie. Believe me, I've been there. Jack would have dumped the money and left with only the shirt on his back if Ennis had said the word. I think sometimes we spend too much time looking at how their lives were different instead of remembering how much they were the same -two men, both thinking they had no control over their own destinies, wanting something they couldn't have, and hurting even more because what they wanted was almost within reach, but never quite close enough to touch.

I think that had a lot to do with how they were both acting in this particualr scene - just a lot of frustration brewing to the surface in each of them.

[lancecowboy]

I think they were definitely drifting apart in some ways over the years, because they were both hurting over what they couldn't have and couldn't articulate, each for different reasons. I do believe they were still showing love though, first just by showing up each time, and of course by AP's paragraph in the SS which says:

"One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough."

And the movie, which so smoothly shows them together in various intimate ways, besides just the sex: spooning in the tent, riding side by side, sitting together by the fire. They were working inevitably toward the final confrontation scene, and who knows what might have happened in November? But I'm drifting.

I just had to address again the idea of Jack in some kind of comfortable rich life, while Ennis wallows in poverty. True, their economic circumstances are quite different, but I don't think it had any bearing on their level of happiness. They were equally unhappy, because they couldn't have what they both wanted - to live together in peace. The SS clearly says that Lureen controlled the money in their marriage, and again I was struck by what Jack said in the scene by the river in the movie. Believe me, I've been there. Jack would have dumped the money and left with only the shirt on his back if Ennis had said the word. I think sometimes we spend too much time looking at how their lives were different instead of remembering how much they were the same -two men, both thinking they had no control over their own destinies, wanting something they couldn't have, and hurting even more because what they wanted was almost within reach, but never quite close enough to touch.

I think that had a lot to do with how they were both acting in this particualr scene - just a lot of frustration brewing to the surface in each of them.

Thanks, FlwrChild. You expressed their anguish so beautifully:
"both thinking they had no control over their own destinies, wanting something they couldn't have, and hurting even more because what they wanted was almost within reach, but never quite close enough to touch."
I see what you mean about they were both unhappy, and I see how the movie also showed Jack's unhappiness in his marriage, talking about Laureen's love of money, making a deal, their lack of physical passion, never dancing, his always drinking. I guess I just didn't look past the surface with Jack.

I think you are right, that Jack would drop everything to be with Ennis. He showed this just by being there each time, driving 14 hours each way, and wanting more time together. I can see how Jack's frustration at Ennis' rebuff each and every time he broaches the subject of together, always, can become a sore spot for them, and drives them apart. Not just the different lives they were living. I apologize to Jack and all the Jack lovers out there. Jack was NOT ambivalent about leaving Laureen to be with Ennis. I think it is also why Laureen caught her breath on the phone with Ennis, when she found out Brokeback Mountain was real, and not a pretend place. Jack told her she went to the Big Horn mountain a few times a year, not Brokeback. She finally realized what those trips were all about, and those tears! She was remarkably composed and generous with Ennis, considering. Telling him to go to Lightning Flat was very generous of her.

I think I will just have to go out and hunt down that short story. I looked for it in a local bookstore in the mall the other day, and they didn't carry it! Not in the whole damn chain of them across the whole of Vancouver. I think I will just have to head to our gay-friendly stores to find it.  No more patronage to ...well never mind. I don't want to get political here.

Thanks again to you all, straightening out this naive newbie.

[FlwrChild]

Nonsense. Nothing naive about you at all.

We all have our own interpretations and see different things with each viewing. That's why I'm still enjoying talking about specific moments and passages from both the original story and the movie. Almost 20 months after first seeing the film, I'm still finding new things to contemplate and seeing old scenes through other people's eyes. Whatever our take on any one scene or character, we are bound by our love for them and their love for each other.

I hope you're able to find a copy of the SS. It's a wonderful read.

[lancecowboy]

I have commented before that I found it so interesting the difference in Jack's perception of Ennis's inner turmoil between the post divorce scene and this one.
[...]
As to Jack's reaction, I don't think that it indicates in any way a flippancy on his part. He saw that Ennis was uncomfortable in his setting, and instead of recognizing that the source of his discomfort was his own internal struggle and not his actual surroundings, Jack suggested Ennis move from that setting. While it wasn't the response that Ennis needed, I think that it was meant to be helpful. And Ennis's reponse to that suggestion was typical of his knee jerk reaction to scoff at anything that he didn't want to face too closely. In my opinion, they were, as usual, both well intentioned but completely unable to relate to where the other was coming from. I don't think there is any blame to be assigned to either. I was miffed with Ennis's response, because every time Jack makes an effort to be close to Ennis or move their relationship to another level, he gets shut out. At the same time, you have to hurt for how deeply conflicted Ennis is, and how much that restricts anything he can allow himself to do or feel.
[...]
[...]
People seem to have this image of Jack pursuing a higher lifestyle because he married Lureen and stayed with her all those years. Yet in the reunion scene, he clearly said all he wanted was a little cow and calf operation somewhere. He wasn't gunning for the big life. He just wanted to be with Ennis. Why wouldn't he stay with Lureen and take what that life could buy? He was just living in a holding pattern all those years on the off chance that one day Ennis would change his mind, and imo would have chucked Lureen and the money in a heartbeat. I thought his response to Ennis's remark about high class entertainment was very telling in that respect - "For what it's worth."

I think that's just one more indication that neither of them understood where the other was coming from in this scene, which seems to follow the pattern of communication they'd established right from that first summer; neither one quite able to say just what was on his mind. Maybe they'd never got much farther than that.

Ooh, I think I got back on topic after all. Phew.

Thanks, FlwrChild. I am just catching up to your posts. I understand better that scene by the river now that you mentioned it, thank you. Jack was certainly not impressed with Laureen's money, either. His aging slouch probably was caused in no small part from all the ridiculing and browbeating from his father-in-law. I was ready to cheer when he told the ignorant fool to sit down.

I was also disappointed at Ennis' reaction to Jack's suggestion to move to Texas, but the conversation was stopped short when Jack walked away, and Ennis swore at the pot floating away, and Jack might have taken that as Ennis swearing at his suggestion. By the way, as I typed the words 'pot floating away' the phrase 'seeing their happiness floating away' came to mind. That scene must have been one of many perfect opportunities for them to sit and talk things over. Instead, each time Jack turns his back, as in their last scene, communication broke down and their chance disappeared. I agree with you that it is no one's fault that they suffered, agonized over their love uncompleted. Both were victims of their time, their own characters.

As for whether Ennis was trying to open a dialogue with Jack, about his feelings, I guess the short story has a better answer, and I will just have to wait till I learn more.

Thanks, 

from a humble newbie 

[lancecowboy]

Nonsense. Nothing naive about you at all.

We all have our own interpretations and see different things with each viewing. That's why I'm still enjoying talking about specific moments and passages from both the original story and the movie. Almost 20 months after first seeing the film, I'm still finding new things to contemplate and seeing old scenes through other people's eyes. Whatever our take on any one scene or character, we are bound by our love for them and their love for each other.

I hope you're able to find a copy of the SS. It's a wonderful read.

Thanks, you'd surprised how naive I can be sometimes. 

I have to run (literally) to get some exercise before my lunch appointment, and hopefully find a copy of the book soon. I am looking forward to it. It will be another treasured addition to my new collection of anything Brokeback. Yeah, I think I am hooked, too. How can I be otherwise?

Oops, off topic...

[jackster]

Whew!
I sure missed the curve in this road! Very interesting exchanges here, it seems there continues to be A LOT of really intense interest in all the various aspects of the Ennis / Jack relationship, but this is not really what I was looking at here with my question. Sorry.

Maybe citing the earlier scene on Brokeback confused my intent.

What I was looking at here was something much smaller, and really just related to Ennis. I can recall only a few instances where SEX or being queer is specifically talked about in the film, and homo sex only three:

1. I ain’t queer (just before SNIT).
2. You didn’t go up there to fish (the kitchen at Thanksgiving).
3. You ever get the feeling’. . . ? (here)

So it seems kinda’ important inasmuch as this is the mortar that cements the relationship together. This instance, #3, seems special in that it’s Ennis who initiates the sexual discussion, and a homo sex discussion at that! Why? Why now? After the boys / men have been “doing it” for 15 years? Where’s he going here? What’s he want? It seemed to me he was trying to open up to Jack about being homosexual, and we all know how hard is for Ennis to talk about anything let alone man sex or being seen as gay. So it seemed significant to me as a point in “Ennis-time”, i.e. his personal growth glide path.

His next big step (IMHO) is when he comes downstairs at the Twist house with “the shirts” and in effect “outs” himself as homosexual to Mr. & Mrs. Twist by  confirming his relationship with Jack.

So, am I seein’ things here? Was this an important turn in Ennis's life or just another E&J miscommunication?

[LuvJackNasty]

I think Ennis only asked because of what had transpired with Alma at Thanksgiving- she only mentioned that she knew he didn't go up there to fish but never said she saw them kissing back in '67. So I can only infer that Ennis started to think that people could figure it out because he went away with Jack. I bet he did some thinking on how in the world she figured it out- what made her put a note in his creel case? How did she put two and two together? I think he was asking Jack to see if maybe Lureen or anyone down in Texas had ever questioned Jack about it. I think Ennis that probably felt that he was giving off signals or hell wearing a great big sign or something. IMO I think he was just asking out of curiousity to see if Lureen ever questioned Jack about his "friend."

[lancecowboy]

I think Ennis only asked because of what had transpired with Alma at Thanksgiving- she only mentioned that she knew he didn't go up there to fish but never said she saw them kissing back in '67. So I can only infer that Ennis started to think that people could figure it out because he went away with Jack. I bet he did some thinking on how in the world she figured it out- what made her put a note in his creel case? How did she put two and two together? I think he was asking Jack to see if maybe Lureen or anyone down in Texas had ever questioned Jack about it. I think Ennis that probably felt that he was giving off signals or hell wearing a great big sign or something. IMO I think he was just asking out of curiousity to see if Lureen ever questioned Jack about his "friend."

I agree with you about Ennis' motivation, LJN, but I also think Jack's reaction will be based on his perception that Ennis is always so careful to be unobserved, i.e. the white truck when he visited after the divorce, etc. I don't know where that motel happens to be, but surely someone would have noticed them spending time there. Is it on the way to Brokeback? Is it a natural stop on the way? I don't know. People are more intuitive than we give them credits. Most people I come out to almost invariably say, oh, that makes sense, or, yeah, I kind of guessed, but I appreciate you telling me. So I think Jack's suggestion to move to Texas is a genuine solution for Ennis, especially considering the episode with Earl.

The problem, here, IMO, is the inability for the two lovers to communicate how they feel in a way that can come up with a viable solution. This was after all, before the Metro sensitive male. What they have achieved is already remarkable for two cowboys. I always feel sad for them, and especially Ennis, who, at that moment, as the pot floats away, and Jack walks off, must feel like sh@# and alone, once again. And Jack wonders why he never said one word about November, later in their last meeting. Jack is not a very approachable guy in his old age, once he put his father-in-law in his place. Just my two gnats' worth.

[lancecowboy]

Whew!
I sure missed the curve in this road! Very interesting exchanges here, it seems there continues to be A LOT of really intense interest in all the various aspects of the Ennis / Jack relationship, but this is not really what I was looking at here with my question. Sorry.

Maybe citing the earlier scene on Brokeback confused my intent.

What I was looking at here was something much smaller, and really just related to Ennis. I can recall only a few instances where SEX or being queer is specifically talked about in the film, and homo sex only three:

1. I ain’t queer (just before SNIT).
2. You didn’t go up there to fish (the kitchen at Thanksgiving).
3. You ever get the feeling’. . . ? (here)

So it seems kinda’ important inasmuch as this is the mortar that cements the relationship together. This instance, #3, seems special in that it’s Ennis who initiates the sexual discussion, and a homo sex discussion at that! Why? Why now? After the boys / men have been “doing it” for 15 years? Where’s he going here? What’s he want? It seemed to me he was trying to open up to Jack about being homosexual, and we all know how hard is for Ennis to talk about anything let alone man sex or being seen as gay. So it seemed significant to me as a point in “Ennis-time”, i.e. his personal growth glide path.

His next big step (IMHO) is when he comes downstairs at the Twist house with “the shirts” and in effect “outs” himself as homosexual to Mr. & Mrs. Twist by  confirming his relationship with Jack.

So, am I seein’ things here? Was this an important turn in Ennis's life or just another E&J miscommunication?

  One curve in forty miles... Ennis had a wicked sense of humor from the beginning, or perhaps Jack's way with words brought out the best in Ennis. I love that about them...

But back to topic, about the mention of gay sex, specifically initiated by Ennis...oops, got to run, but will be back...later.

I'm back...wanted to say that I thought there were a couple other places where the movie had mention of gay sex between Ennis and Jack:

1. Jack went back to Aguirre the next summer, and he told him in no uncertain terms that the pair of them weren't paid to have the dogs baby sit the sheep while the two of them stem the rose...
2. In their last meeting, when Ennis said "what they got in Mexico for boys like you."

And as someone else pointed out the short story had Ennis bringing up in the motel scene explaining about his "wrung it out?" (cannot recall the exact phrase or spelling) thinking about Jack.

I think all in all, Ennis has by SNIT accepted his feelings for Jack. However, he couldn't name it, or place it in a nice orderly way into his nice orderly world. I think Ennis's personality is what is considered, in my crude way, anal-retentive, everything has to be proper and in it's place. Even his tiny trailer home was well organized. Having these feelings for Jack was just such a shock to his orderly world that he's "got no reins on this one" so he kept brooding over what to do about it. The same is probably true of Jack, who is used to being carefree looking out for number one, but now can hardly stand being away from Ennis. The two of them has no way of coming to terms of their love for each other. Jack came closest to it, but he also never said "love".

I agree with you that it was a significant moment in Ennis-time when he realized how much impact this relationship with Jack has had on his life, his marriage. Despite all the care he put into keep it a secret, Elma knew! And by extension, probably Monroe, too! And so, in one Thanksgiving evening, his whole world blew apart. He couldn't figure out how they knew, was lost and confused, and was trying to reach out to Jack to find answers. It is probably the first time in their relationship when they asked one another for advice about their own personal life. It's a cowboy thing, I guess. (or a movie thing, I will just to read the short story to find out) Anyway, Jack's unsympathetic answer made Ennis felt alone and desperate. Where is that man who understands me? He was probably thinking.

And so the seed of the end of the tragic relationship germinates at this moment when Jack thinks Ennis is paranoid or worse, and Ennis thinks Jack is uncaring or worse.

From there, it was only a small step to Jack's attitude in their last meeting that Ennis, what happened to August, don't you care about us spending time together? Don't you care about me? I told you how much I care about you? What's the matter? Is the straight boy's ego getting bruised? Are you more interested in your straight life than me?...

And equally, for Ennis it was a minute step from his own self-doubt to his thinking Jack no long loves him, abandoning him, and moving on. In their last meeting, with Ennis already nervous about not being able to make August, he was chewing his fingers off, Jack had to go on a self-righteous tirade about never enough time, and blaming their few times in twenty years on Ennis. Ennis even practically begged Jack for an idea, a better idea, a cow and calf operation idea. When Jack finally said, I did once. It was like a declaration of breaking up to Ennis, whose hope however slim of sharing a sweet life together with Jack, is now dashed to pieces. It is no longer, it can be like this, always. But only, once.  And when Jack accuses Ennis that he doesn't know what's it like to miss him so much, he could hardly stand it, Ennis broke and did not know how to tell Jack his own feelings, to keep him from moving on to Mexico, to other places, away from him, the boring same as usual Ennis. When Jack said those hurtful words, "I wish I knew how to quit you." Ennis' life collapsed, imploded, and he was left with nothing. That's when he said to Jack, it's because you that I am like this, I am no where, I have nothing, NOW THAT YOU ARE LEAVING! When Ennis said I can't take this any more, he is confessing his confusion, his inability to cope with the pain of lost love. Jack thought he meant the infrequent get together and shifting between Jack and his straight life. In a way, what was misunderstood from that evening by the river, continued until the day Jack died. It was only with the two shirts, that Ennis found closure, and certainty that Jack loved him, and he loved Jack.

The chasm that tore them apart in the final scene was begun back there next to the river, when the pot drifting, floating, carrying away their one chance for happiness, their one opportunity for true and open communication, when Ennis said, "You ever get the feelin'..."

   back on topic we are.

[LuvJackNasty]

Well as I said earlier, I think without any real explanation from Ennis as to why he was suddenly asking this question (ie: Alma confronting him) that Jack saw Ennis's "paranoia" working overtime. I think Jack's response was more along the lines of trying to get Ennis to see that there was more out there in the world as opposed to small town Wyoming. Not that Jack was overly worldly or anything but he saw more than Ennis did being on the rodeo circuit and interacted with more people from his job. As you said a genuine solution and at the same time another miscommunication between them. I think Jack understood Ennis's fears and limitations well but didn't know how to "help" Ennis (for lack of a better word). I do think it is a big moment in that Ennis acknowledges his sexuality and it also shows how comfortable he is with Jack to ask it.

As for the last part of your post I have a lot of thoughts on that but that is a topic for another thread. 

[jackster]

I think Ennis only asked because of what had transpired with Alma at Thanksgiving- she only mentioned that she knew he didn't go up there to fish but never said she saw them kissing back in '67. So I can only infer that Ennis started to think that people could figure it out because he went away with Jack. I bet he did some thinking on how in the world she figured it out- what made her put a note in his creel case? How did she put two and two together? I think he was asking Jack to see if maybe Lureen or anyone down in Texas had ever questioned Jack about it. I think Ennis that probably felt that he was giving off signals or hell wearing a great big sign or something. IMO I think he was just asking out of curiousity to see if Lureen ever questioned Jack about his "friend."

Good point here LJN. You think Alma confronting Ennis at Thanksgiving suddenly made Ennis realize that if she suspected, then maybe other folks were wonderin' too? And then he started "gettin' the feelin" that other folks were lookin' at him and they knew too. I like that reasoning, makes sense to me, and your later observation that he's comfortable enough with Jack to talk about it is good too. This is one of those aspects of the film that's so frustrating yet seminal to the whole story . . . If they had only talked ABOUT each other TO each other it could have been so different.

The idea of Ennis wearing a big Purple Q is very amusing too. (with apologies to Hawthorne).

Re: The Twist house scene, as you well know, that's been discussed a lot. I just threw that in to illustrate the point I was trying to make about scenes that mark Ennis's passages. But be my guest . . . .

[LuvJackNasty]

Good point here LJN. You think Alma confronting Ennis at Thanksgiving suddenly made Ennis realize that if she suspected, then maybe other folks were wonderin' too? And then he started "gettin' the feelin" that other folks were lookin' at him and they knew too. I like that reasoning, makes sense to me, and your later observation that he's comfortable enough with Jack to talk about it is good too. This is one of those aspects of the film that's so frustrating yet seminal to the whole story . . . If they had only talked ABOUT each other TO each other it could have been so different.

The idea of Ennis wearing a big Purple Q is very amusing too. (with apologies to Hawthorne).

Re: The Twist house scene, as you well know, that's been discussed a lot. I just threw that in to illustrate the point I was trying to make about scenes that mark Ennis's passages. But be my guest . . . .

Actually I was directing that other thread comment to the last part of Lancecowboy's post but I kind of forgot to adress that 

There are so many if only's in this film story and the miscommunications lead to a lot of them. And yeah that's my take on it but it's only my opinion, of course. Plus right after that he hooks up with Cassie- I know that was mentioned a long time ago about her being a beard. But again, going back to the original question it never occurred to me that right there Ennis was admitting he was gay- I always took it sort of at face value (thus my interpretation) and never picked up on that. That's why I love these discussions-so much still to learn and discover about our boys. 

[FlwrChild]

I'm not sure I think Ennis was admitting that he was gay in this scene. I think he was wondering if 'this thing' they had was something that other people could pick up on, even when they weren't together. And was wondering if Jack ever experienced the same feelings. I took his "boys like you" line in the final confrontation as another indication that he wasn't willing to acknowledge that their relationship meant anything one way or another to his own sexuality, whatever Jack's proclivities might have been. The timing of Ennis's asking Jack about it most likely was because of his conversation with Alma, but I doubt he would have been willing to pursue the issue much further.

I'm going to have to disagree with your take on their positions in this exchange about Texas too, lc. Ennis was the one who went on the offensive with his scornful taunts about Lureen adopting the girls, etc. I think he was certainly frustrated and unhappy when Jack stomped off, but as he was probably trying to distance himself from the topic anyway, I doubt he felt particularly abandoned or rejected because of it. I don't see Jack as unapproachable in general during any time period, but of course there was so much of their time together that we never see, we are by neccessity filling in some of the blanks for ourselves.

[lancecowboy]

I'm not sure I think Ennis was admitting that he was gay in this scene. I think he was wondering if 'this thing' they had was something that other people could pick up on, even when they weren't together. And was wondering if Jack ever experienced the same feelings. I took his "boys like you" line in the final confrontation as another indication that he wasn't willing to acknowledge that their relationship meant anything one way or another to his own sexuality, whatever Jack's proclivities might have been. The timing of Ennis's asking Jack about it most likely was because of his conversation with Alma, but I doubt he would have been willing to pursue the issue much further.

I'm going to have to disagree with your take on their positions in this exchange about Texas too, lc. Ennis was the one who went on the offensive with his scornful taunts about Lureen adopting the girls, etc. I think he was certainly frustrated and unhappy when Jack stomped off, but as he was probably trying to distance himself from the topic anyway, I doubt he felt particularly abandoned or rejected because of it. I don't see Jack as unapproachable in general during any time period, but of course there was so much of their time together that we never see, we are by neccessity filling in some of the blanks for ourselves.

I am not sure about Ennis admitting to be gay or not. I think he simply did not understand his feelings, even though I think he accepted them, as mentioned in the short story, about his never thinking about another man, but with Jack, he thinks about him hundreds of times.

I agree with your take that Ennis was trying to understand, make sense of what happened with Alma, and if people knew about him. I think it's highly likely that they all knew but were too polite to tell him or tell on him. And his coming to Jack for advice was a courageous and important step. You are right, thank you for pointing it out, that it was Ennis who started the scornful taunt. Jack was only trying to help, but failed. It's a common theme among couples who eventually split - due to irreconcilable differences. Jack is still adorable and Ennis is still lovable, but their lives had grown apart to the point where they can no longer communicate effectively unless the topic is about the weather, women, and Brokeback Mountain.

[tpe]

I too noticed something special about this scene.  We see Ennis talking frankly with Jack, in a manner that was pretty matter of fact (compare it with the veiled approach when they talked up in the mountains after FNIT). 

I think it does hint at Ennis opening up to his homosexuality.  But I also think it was driven primarily by fear -- or the mounting (?) paranoia about being found out.  I suspect that Ennis brought this up most reluctantly -- it was so very not like him to talk about such a thing in the open.  But I think he just had to let a little bit out, and Jack was certainly one he trusted.

What I find most interesting is that IMO, Ennis bringing up Jack's relationship with Lureen was really an oblique way of referncing HIS relationship with Jack, and whether it was known by more people than they think.  Ennis was unable to reference it directly; instead, he brought it up indirectly as a corollary to Jack's married situation. 

I hope this is making sense.  I would be interested to know your thoughts.

[myprivatejack]

I tend to agree mainly with FlowrChild in that Ennis was more worried about knowing if someone was suspicious about their relationship than about accepting his own sexuality in the river scene.It´s a confirmation the "boys like you" as if Jack had an affair with any other man,as if he WAS NOT the other part of the couple...;what´s more,I´ve always thought that his posterior rage was a blend of jealousy,fear about what could happen to Jack in these adventures and worry because admit Jack´s homosexuality was a kind of admitting also his.But I´ve said "more worried",not "absolutely worried",and this little difference tells that maybe he tried to beguin a conversation about both of them.As I say in another post,then Jack was wrong in not speak more easily and not "attack" directly with his proposition of living together,what made Ennis hide in his shell in a rather cinic reaction.

[jackster]

. . . . What I find most interesting is that IMO, Ennis bringing up Jack's relationship with Lureen was really an oblique way of referncing HIS relationship with Jack, and whether it was known by more people than they think.  Ennis was unable to reference it directly; instead, he brought it up indirectly as a corollary to Jack's married situation. 

I hope this is making sense. 

Much sense. Yes, I've always been a bit puzzled by that statement too "You an' Lureen . . . normal an' all?" (As if Ennis knew what "normal" hetero sex was!) Maybe he was trying to figure out if he was possibly more homo than Jack, or maybe since this was after Alma's "Jack nasty" comment, he's trying to figure out exactly how "nasty" Jack is, at least in regard to his sexual proclivities. Or like's been said, he's thinking that if Jack & Lureen are still having sex (as Ennis an' Alma are now split) then that would provide cover (in Texas anyway) for Jack. Or maybe he's trying to see if Jack's riding' more than bulls down in Texas, since at this point Ennis isn't ridin' anyone (except Jack) as Cassie's not in the picture yet. A number of maybe's here. . . .

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I've always felt the river scene depicted Ennis as concerned about who knew what about he and Jack.  After all he and Alma had recently confronted the subject.  If he didn't think she suspected something before he got confirmation that she knew something all along.  I'm sure that knowledge would make him wonder how many other people had their suspicions about him.

[lancecowboy]

I too noticed something special about this scene.  We see Ennis talking frankly with Jack, in a manner that was pretty matter of fact (compare it with the veiled approach when they talked up in the mountains after FNIT). 

I think it does hint at Ennis opening up to his homosexuality.  But I also think it was driven primarily by fear -- or the mounting (?) paranoia about being found out.  I suspect that Ennis brought this up most reluctantly -- it was so very not like him to talk about such a thing in the open.  But I think he just had to let a little bit out, and Jack was certainly one he trusted.

What I find most interesting is that IMO, Ennis bringing up Jack's relationship with Lureen was really an oblique way of referncing HIS relationship with Jack, and whether it was known by more people than they think.  Ennis was unable to reference it directly; instead, he brought it up indirectly as a corollary to Jack's married situation. 

I hope this is making sense.  I would be interested to know your thoughts.

I don't think Ennis was getting paranoid. He was merely acting out what the culture demanded of any gay men living in a small town. Even today, there are places in rural America where being gay can be an invitation to a beating. Gay teens do not have the highest suicide rates in America for nothing. Ennis was certainly justified to be confused by Alma's finding out, since he did not know she witnessed their reunion kiss. I was confused though, that Ennis did not pick up on how upset Alma was, when she took off for the fishing trip after their motel visit. He looked like he was apologetic, and even kissed Alma goodbye, which was the only time he did that. But he never pursued the reason for her upset. Perhaps if he did, thing would have worked out differently.

Then again, as you mentioned, Ennis never discussed his relationship with Jack, not even with Jack. I think someone said this is different in the short story. I don't know if it was intentional on the scriptwrters' part or the director's part. In any case, I think it makes Ennis even more real to life. To Ennis, Jack was his fishing/hunting/cowboy buddy. They fool around because that's what boys do when they are left to their own devices.  The only difference is the intensity between them, that overwhelmed Ennis, to the point of making his normal straight relationships pale by comparison. I think Ennis was asking Jack if Laureen found anything missing in their love life. This is confirmed later by Jack in their last meeting, but at this point, Jack's usual bravado got the best of him, and he refused to be vulnerable. This, in my opinion, caused the attempt at communication to break down, leading to Ennis' scorn at Jack's solution to move to Texas. If Jack had let down his guard, confess to an unsatisfactory lovelife with Laureen, and then offer to help Ennis settle in a ranch in Texas, so they can spend more time together, so that Ennis moving to Texas is for Jack's benefit, and not Ennis running away (which to any cowboy, is not a easy pill to swallow). Anyway, I think what you said makes perfect sense, tpe. These cowboys are the products of their time and culture. They are victims of their own limitations. Had they been watching Will and Grace, or the Queer Eyes for the Straight Guys, they'd be living happily in Lightning Flat with a fabulous cow and calf operation, and if I may add, a gorgeous resort for City Slickin' Cowboys  to learn the ropes. Just my thoughts.

[lancecowboy]

I've always felt the river scene depicted Ennis as concerned about who knew what about he and Jack.  After all he and Alma had recently confronted the subject.  If he didn't think she suspected something before he got confirmation that she knew something all along.  I'm sure that knowledge would make him wonder how many other people had their suspicions about him.

According to Wikipedia, Riverton had a population of 9311 in 2000. I can imagine the number in 1970 was much smaller. It's small enough that I an almost 100% certain that with Alma knowing about it, and Monroe being the manager of the supermarket, and Aguirre knowing about it, most of Riverton would know about it. Monroe seems to truly love Alma, so he may keep it a secret to protect her, if she asks him not to say anything. She may not have any reason to expose him, especially for the girls' sakes. Aguirre, however, has no reason to keep it to himself. With the ranching community knowing everyone else, I'd be surprised if Ennis' reputation does not precede him whenever he quits his jobs to be with Jack. Being the lovely person that he is, Ennis still managed to be accepted by everyone around him. He borrowed someone's cabin one summer. Surely the fella must know what was going on in his cabin. The irony here, I think, is that Ennis was so afraid of being found out, being ostracized, when, if my suspicion is correct, he was already found out, and was accepted in spite of his queerness. All the worrying was for nothing. Most people, I think, can be very tolerant as long as they are not confronted by it in terms that are beyond their comfort zone.

[welshwitch]

I wonder whether Alma would ever have told Monroe about Ennis; we don't know on what grounds she got her divorce; if they were something socially mentionabale, like say unreasonable behaviour, she mightn't have mentioned the relationship with Jack. But maybe Ennis thinks that now she's socially secure Alma may have not just decided to confront him but also have talked to Monroe, and gossip has arisen as a result.

I am intrigued by the idea that confronting the awful LD changed Jack in some way, made him harder, more aggressively male, more determined to get what he wanted perhaps, and that that changed the dynamics of his other relationships. It might have made him more ready to say, in effect, "To hell with Lureen" but I suppose he could also have thought that he was ready to demand more from Ennis. After all, he had alternatives by now.