Topic: Meaning of The Love Scene *Spoiler*

[Patriot1]

my question is in the first tent scene, the love scene..

I have searched and searched the web for the meaning of love.  I still don't think I have found it, but, I have learned that sex is one small part of love.  There are people who do not have the ability to have sex and yet they are just a filed with love as you or I.

I would be more inclined to call the first night in the tent a scene of uncontrolled sexual lust, and not a love scene.

But, as I am still learning, I sure would like to hear other's thoughts on this.

[shieldmaid]

I'd have to agree with you, Patriot1.  FNIT seems like uncontrollable lust, brought on by too much whiskey and a cold night--yet obviously feelings do exist at that point.  We can see their growing affection for each other in the many looks they exchange and the things they do for/with one another, discussed in many other threads here.  FNIT allows them to take things to a physical level, and I don't think they're worrying about much other than physical sensation and release at that point.  I would argue that this physical desire then becomes subordinated to or more a way of expressing their deep emotional feelings for each other in later times, starting with SNIT.

[donnaread]

y i dont understand why he acted that way..??

He wants to run (he's seen what happens to "queers')?  But he wants to stay (Whether he can name it or not, by this time he is in love with Jack.  This is the reason he got drunk... just so he could be intimate with Jack and then say "Gee, was I drunk last night!" the next morning.  Of course, the next morning finds him speechless)?  Two things about Ennis that 1st night are pretty sure (especially in the story):

1) He's not interested in foreplay.
2) He's already turned on before Jack grabs his hand (He's oozing "clear slick," which is not an instantaneous reaction.).

Allan

Ennis really ISN'T the king of foreplay is he?  The first love scene with Alma...she's trying to get him to kiss her and he flips her over "doing quickly what she hates"  as the short story says.  I bet Jack taught him better over the years.   

Donna

[NoReins]

Ennis really ISN'T the king of foreplay is he?  The first love scene with Alma...she's trying to get him to kiss her and he flips her over "doing quickly what she hates"  as the short story says.  I bet Jack taught him better over the years.   

Donna

Yeah, but I think that scene is making a point - Ennis can't bear to kiss Alma because he wants to be kissing Jack. He's thinking of Jack throughout that scene, leading to the ultimate "wishing Alma was Jack" incident....

Anyway, that's OT - back with the FNIT. I think what happens between them is uncontrollable physical lust on Ennis's part - but I also believe that Jack has thought about it regularly over their first two weeks together and that his reasons for bringing Ennis's hand to his c*ck are not just borne out of a need for physical contact with someone, but rather out of a real desire to become intimate with Ennis. I'm sure Ennis was feeling something but there's no way he would have recognised it as attraction prior to FNIT, whereas Jack clearly does. Someone above referred to Ennis being "turned on" before Jack grabs his hand - I don't think this is the right phrase as that suggests he's thinking clearly about Jack in a sexual way where I think it's more just a case of unexplained thoughts, unidentified feelings and the natural urges of a 19 year old that lead to him being, ahem, ready when Jack initiates things.

[FlwrChild]

Ennis really ISN'T the king of foreplay is he?  The first love scene with Alma...she's trying to get him to kiss her and he flips her over "doing quickly what she hates"  as the short story says.  I bet Jack taught him better over the years.   

Donna

Yeah, but I think that scene is making a point - Ennis can't bear to kiss Alma because he wants to be kissing Jack. He's thinking of Jack throughout that scene, leading to the ultimate "wishing Alma was Jack" incident....

Anyway, that's OT - back with the FNIT. I think what happens between them is uncontrollable physical lust on Ennis's part - but I also believe that Jack has thought about it regularly over their first two weeks together and that his reasons for bringing Ennis's hand to his c*ck are not just borne out of a need for physical contact with someone, but rather out of a real desire to become intimate with Ennis. I'm sure Ennis was feeling something but there's no way he would have recognised it as attraction prior to FNIT, whereas Jack clearly does. Someone above referred to Ennis being "turned on" before Jack grabs his hand - I don't think this is the right phrase as that suggests he's thinking clearly about Jack in a sexual way where I think it's more just a case of unexplained thoughts, unidentified feelings and the natural urges of a 19 year old that lead to him being, ahem, ready when Jack initiates things.

I think you have that exactly right. Well put. And I think Jack is definitely already emotionally involved and aware of it. I think Ennis is emotionally involved but doesn't realize the growing friendship means everything that it turns out to mean. The SNIT reflects the deeper feelings involved for both of them.

[Sunflower79]

I agree with the others that first night together just happend, all thier lust and pent up passion just came out..sort of like spontaneous combustion... I think they were both taken by surprise by that one night of passion..We can assume that Ennis was a virgin and this was his first time. The scenes with Alma seemed to be missing real true love..it seemed more natural for Ennis to be with Jack than with Alma..The second tent scene was more tender and loving and Ennis wasn't drunk with the second time. At first Ennis seemed a bit unsure and awkward which would ne normal for someone's first time. He was hestinate at first and then he knew he couldn't hold his passion inside anymore..

[stacp]

Ennis really ISN'T the king of foreplay is he?  The first love scene with Alma...she's trying to get him to kiss her and he flips her over "doing quickly what she hates"  as the short story says.  I bet Jack taught him better over the years.   

Donna

Yeah, but I think that scene is making a point - Ennis can't bear to kiss Alma because he wants to be kissing Jack. He's thinking of Jack throughout that scene, leading to the ultimate "wishing Alma was Jack" incident....

Anyway, that's OT - back with the FNIT. I think what happens between them is uncontrollable physical lust on Ennis's part - but I also believe that Jack has thought about it regularly over their first two weeks together and that his reasons for bringing Ennis's hand to his c*ck are not just borne out of a need for physical contact with someone, but rather out of a real desire to become intimate with Ennis. I'm sure Ennis was feeling something but there's no way he would have recognised it as attraction prior to FNIT, whereas Jack clearly does. Someone above referred to Ennis being "turned on" before Jack grabs his hand - I don't think this is the right phrase as that suggests he's thinking clearly about Jack in a sexual way where I think it's more just a case of unexplained thoughts, unidentified feelings and the natural urges of a 19 year old that lead to him being, ahem, ready when Jack initiates things.

Great post, No Reins.  I do think Jack pulling Ennis' hand to Jack's groin was a deliberate action to elicit a response from Ennis.  I think Jack definitely had feelings for Ennis, whether it was full on love or lust at this point, I'm not sure.  I mean, just look at the way Jack is peeling those potatoes, trying so hard not to look at Ennis.  I think Jack figured this might be his one chance to try something.  But I don't think Jack would have tried it if Ennis hadn't given him some sign, however small, that he was interested.  I think some definite flirting went on with the "ain't  yet had the opportunity."  Plus, all those small things Ennis did for Jack:  switching jobs, cooking his meat, killing the elk.  I think both of them, deep down, knew what was coming.  It was just a matter of time.

[FlwrChild]

Great post, No Reins.  I do think Jack pulling Ennis' hand to Jack's groin was a deliberate action to elicit a response from Ennis.  I think Jack definitely had feelings for Ennis, whether it was full on love or lust at this point, I'm not sure.  I mean, just look at the way Jack is peeling those potatoes, trying so hard not to look at Ennis.  I think Jack figured this might be his one chance to try something.  But I don't think Jack would have tried it if Ennis hadn't given him some sign, however small, that he was interested.  I think some definite flirting went on with the "ain't  yet had the opportunity."  Plus, all those small things Ennis did for Jack:  switching jobs, cooking his meat, killing the elk.  I think both of them, deep down, knew what was coming.  It was just a matter of time.

Yep, it was just a matter of time. Every time I watch the movie now, I can't help thinking at the beginning when Jack's truck pulls into the lot, that Ennis has no idea his destiny has just arrived in front of him.
And it makes me wonder: how often do we know when our destiny arrives in front of us?

Sorry, I know, OT

[welshwitch]

I don't know how you lnow - the only time I saw my destiny appear before me, and it happened in a nanosecond, I just knew - it was so intense I almost collapsed. It didn't become physical for a long time, though the sexual attraction was implicit from the beginning. He knew too, just as immediately. And it led after a long time to total disaster.

The relationship that grew slowly and included physical and emotional and intellectual elements is the one that lasted. Don't know what that proves, except that deep in my mind i have a tiny niggle, less from the movie than the story, where AP says every time they met there was " the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings", that the physical thing was a strong part of it, and that's what proximity, familiarity and routine often erodes. I wonder if, whether they'd been together permanently, the physical thing would have burnt out and if so, what they would have ben left with.

Put this down to me being old, wqrinkled, cynical and needing a chocolate fix.

[gimmejack]

I don't know how you lnow - the only time I saw my destiny appear before me, and it happened in a nanosecond, I just knew - it was so intense I almost collapsed. It didn't become physical for a long time, though the sexual attraction was implicit from the beginning. He knew too, just as immediately. And it led after a long time to total disaster.

The relationship that grew slowly and included physical and emotional and intellectual elements is the one that lasted. Don't know what that proves, except that deep in my mind i have a tiny niggle, less from the movie than the story, where AP says every time they met there was " the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings", that the physical thing was a strong part of it, and that's what proximity, familiarity and routine often erodes. I wonder if, whether they'd been together permanently, the physical thing would have burnt out and if so, what they would have ben left with.

Put this down to me being old, wqrinkled, cynical and needing a chocolate fix.

Would not be the tragically beautiful love story that it is had they been able to lead their routine and familiar lives...
Routine is comfortable for some but apparently not for most (divorce and break up rates)
I think deep down we all need that"brilliant charge" as often as possible...like first kisses everyday
and chocolate fixes!!!

[tpe]

I don't know how you lnow - the only time I saw my destiny appear before me, and it happened in a nanosecond, I just knew - it was so intense I almost collapsed. It didn't become physical for a long time, though the sexual attraction was implicit from the beginning. He knew too, just as immediately. And it led after a long time to total disaster.

The relationship that grew slowly and included physical and emotional and intellectual elements is the one that lasted. Don't know what that proves, except that deep in my mind i have a tiny niggle, less from the movie than the story, where AP says every time they met there was " the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings", that the physical thing was a strong part of it, and that's what proximity, familiarity and routine often erodes. I wonder if, whether they'd been together permanently, the physical thing would have burnt out and if so, what they would have ben left with.

Put this down to me being old, wqrinkled, cynical and needing a chocolate fix.

Would not be the tragically beautiful love story that it is had they been able to lead their routine and familiar lives...
Routine is comfortable for some but apparently not for most (divorce and break up rates)
I think deep down we all need that"brilliant charge" as often as possible...like first kisses everyday
and chocolate fixes!!!

Thanks gimmejack and welshwitch.  I do feel that there is an elemental "fix" at play here.  It is not just the sexual need, IMO.  It even goes beyond the need to be loved.  I think it centers around the nedd to belong: whether with society or with one heart.

[gimmejack]

I don't know how you lnow - the only time I saw my destiny appear before me, and it happened in a nanosecond, I just knew - it was so intense I almost collapsed. It didn't become physical for a long time, though the sexual attraction was implicit from the beginning. He knew too, just as immediately. And it led after a long time to total disaster.

The relationship that grew slowly and included physical and emotional and intellectual elements is the one that lasted. Don't know what that proves, except that deep in my mind i have a tiny niggle, less from the movie than the story, where AP says every time they met there was " the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings", that the physical thing was a strong part of it, and that's what proximity, familiarity and routine often erodes. I wonder if, whether they'd been together permanently, the physical thing would have burnt out and if so, what they would have ben left with.

Put this down to me being old, wqrinkled, cynical and needing a chocolate fix.

Would not be the tragically beautiful love story that it is had they been able to lead their routine and familiar lives...
Routine is comfortable for some but apparently not for most (divorce and break up rates)
I think deep down we all need that"brilliant charge" as often as possible...like first kisses everyday
and chocolate fixes!!!

Thanks gimmejack and welshwitch.  I do feel that there is an elemental "fix" at play here.  It is not just the sexual need, IMO.  It even goes beyond the need to be loved.  I think it centers around the nedd to belong: whether with society or with one heart.

Well put...and they definetely belonged together

[welshwitch]

I was thinking about aroms the other day ( as you do); when tpe talked about needing to belong I thought about making connections and that led on to the ide that Ennis is like hydrogen - once he's got his one electron he's stable and doesn't go looking for more, whereas Jack is like carbon, able to make strong connections with one other in double or triple bonds but also capable of holding out connections to others.

No, well, don't worry about me - I just have a weird way of looking at things.

[tpe]

I was thinking about aroms the other day ( as you do); when tpe talked about needing to belong I thought about making connections and that led on to the ide that Ennis is like hydrogen - once he's got his one electron he's stable and doesn't go looking for more, whereas Jack is like carbon, able to make strong connections with one other in double or triple bonds but also capable of holding out connections to others.

No, well, don't worry about me - I just have a weird way of looking at things.

welshwitch, I love the analogy! 

[FlwrChild]

Me too!

[shieldmaid]

Wow, welshwitch, that is excellent!  Thanks.