Topic: Ironic BBM

[babytammy7]

Hi there brokies!!!

I have to tell you that I like so so so so much one friend of mine……But I’ve always been a very shy and insecure girl,  so I didn´t want him to know about it; besides I never talk about my feelings……like Ennis didn´t, I’m a Jack girl though. But he is so tender and sweet and my heart was melted ; so a few weeks ago I was brave and I told him everything about my feelings…..But he thought I was joking, he thought I was a bold and almost a silly girl, and I felt so sad.  :\'(  :\'(  Later we clarified the situation, and now we are very good friends, but my heart is still confused: never in my entire life I’ve expressed my feelings of love to somebody and when finally I decided to do it, the other person thinks I’m joking……Isn’t it ironic?

Thinking about this irony I realized how ironic is BBM too. First time I saw the film I thought about it, and talked to my sister about every point I found really ironic in that beautiful movie.

About Jack: His death on a road hit me in a very bad way, ‘cause he spent 20 years of his life in those roads, looking for love, dreaming, hoping, and it was on those very roads where his dreams and his hope dead. He revived every time he drove direction north on those roads, and on those roads he found the death. Isn’t it ironic? OMG  :\'(  :\'(

Nothing when he was alive was in the way he wanted: Never saw his dreams come true, and however he had things he never wanted. He didn’t have Ennis and his sweet life, but he had to stand LD, and he had to live a life he didn’t like it. But he thought that at least his last desire would be done, and he could rest forever in his personal paradise: BBM. But, ah, how cruel is life sometimes, and he in death neither got what he wanted……and his ashes never went to BBM. Isn’t it ironic?  :\'(  :\'(

About Ennis: He decided to do fishing trips and not living with Jack ‘cause he didn’t wanted to lose his family, and just for doing those fishing trips he lost his family (marriage with Alma)’cause he quit jobs, he only took holidays to be with Jack and not with his wife and children, and ‘cause Alma knew what happened in those trips. Ironic….
He was afraid to be killed for being gay, for being with another man, and because of that he never thought about living with Jack. He thought he and Jack would be safe if they lived separated, but as Jack didn’t get what he needed and wanted, he took more risks being with other men, and finally he was killed. So Ennis, trying not to be Earl, became Rich. Oh, isn’t it so ironic?
Ennis wanted everything “straight” in his life. He was not a queer, he was a straight man, and also he tried to make “straight” or right everything he could: fixing the tend (tend don’t looks right), buttoning Jack’s shirt up, putting straight the postcard in the door…. I think he wanted everything “straight” ‘cause his parents died in a curve, so he was afraid of curved or twisted things...;but he didn’t realize that his parents died for going straight when they had to take the curve, so Ennis lost his Jack for living all his life “straight” instead of taking the curve. There was only one curve on the road and his parents didn’t take it well, so they died; there was one only curve in Ennis’ life, Jack, and he didn’t want to take it thinking that he would die like his parents (being killed) so finally he died too, ruining his life. So ironic….. :\'(

I use to think life is bittersweet and sometimes quite ironic, and BBM confirmed my point of view. Sometimes I laugh at all those life’s ironies and sometimes, like with BBM, I cry so much and so hard.  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[lamusica]

This is a very insightful post, babytammy.  I had never thought about the irony in the movie, but it sure is there, as you pointed out.  I guess one of the biggest ironies is that the more they stayed away from one another, the more they came to mean to one another.  Towards the end, they both HAD to make the trips to see one another, enough so that they fought over missing one visit.

[tpe]

I do agree that BBM is full of ironies.  For me, the greatest irony was that the person whom Jack loved the most was perhaps one of the last ones to hear about his death.

[myprivatejack]

Hi everybody¡Well, life is full with what we call here in Spain "destiny´s ironies",we all have been victims of them in any moment.For me in this case, I guess the greatest irony,tragic irony,in our boys relationship was that Ennis spent half his life protecting himself,but above all,protecting Jack against all the dangers they could run for being catched for "this thing";this was really the reason,and perhaps sometimes the excuse,for having put a wall of negation between Jack´s dreams and hopes and the reality.And,in the end,it happenned what he was afraid for,but after having denied a lot of happy moments that never were going to return...for the same result¡. :\'(
However,the question of curves on the "straight" Ennis´life is for me more a question of double meanings,to be written about in the respective thread.(dear Tammy,I hate to disagree with you... ) ;as a matter of fact,it´s the confirmation of his fears,that his attitude before life was the correct one.If you take a curve when  everything must be straight,you´ll have some problems;there was a curve in his parents way and a curve in Ennis´sexual and love life.The result is the same,IMO.

[lancecowboy]

[...]
About Jack: His death on a road hit me in a very bad way, ‘cause he spent 20 years of his life in those roads, looking for love, dreaming, hoping, and it was on those very roads where his dreams and his hope dead. He revived every time he drove direction north on those roads, and on those roads he found the death. Isn’t it ironic? OMG  :\'(  :\'(

Nothing when he was alive was in the way he wanted: Never saw his dreams come true, and however he had things he never wanted. He didn’t have Ennis and his sweet life, but he had to stand LD, and he had to live a life he didn’t like it. But he thought that at least his last desire would be done, and he could rest forever in his personal paradise: BBM. But, ah, how cruel is life sometimes, and he in death neither got what he wanted……and his ashes never went to BBM. Isn’t it ironic?  :\'(  :\'(
[...]
He was afraid to be killed for being gay, for being with another man, and because of that he never thought about living with Jack. He thought he and Jack would be safe if they lived separated, but as Jack didn’t get what he needed and wanted, he took more risks being with other men, and finally he was killed. So Ennis, trying not to be Earl, became Rich. Oh, isn’t it so ironic?
Ennis wanted everything “straight” in his life. He was not a queer, he was a straight man, and also he tried to make “straight” or right everything he could: fixing the tend (tend don’t looks right), buttoning Jack’s shirt up, putting straight the postcard in the door…. I think he wanted everything “straight” ‘cause his parents died in a curve, so he was afraid of curved or twisted things...;but he didn’t realize that his parents died for going straight when they had to take the curve, so Ennis lost his Jack for living all his life “straight” instead of taking the curve. There was only one curve on the road and his parents didn’t take it well, so they died; there was one only curve in Ennis’ life, Jack, and he didn’t want to take it thinking that he would die like his parents (being killed) so finally he died too, ruining his life. So ironic….. :\'(
[...]

Hi, babytammy7, thank you for bring this topic to our attention. I also think life is full of irony, and Brokeback Mountain, too, since the movie is such an amazing reproduction or real life.

You bring forward a couple observations that totally escaped, but is so valuable to understand Ennis' character. I agree that the curve in the road analogy works here. Ennis indeed is very anal-retentive, everything has to be just right. It is indeed ironic that his happiness is found in things not so straight. Jack's life is also filled with irony, as you said. I think His death on the highway was certainly symbolic of his life, always search for happiness, but never finding it, not even in death. And I think it is what Ennis wants, to fulfill his wish, when he said in the last scene, Jack I swear, because that was the one loving act that may redeem his own irony, of wanting Jack, and not wanting him at the same time.

[...]
If you take a curve when  everything must be straight,you´ll have some problems;there was a curve in his parents way and a curve in Ennis´sexual and love life.The result is the same,IMO.

Yes, go with the flow...not necessarily the flow of other's opinions, but the flow of what is right.

[tpe]

Hi everybody¡Well, life is full with what we call here in Spain "destiny´s ironies",we all have been victims of them in any moment.For me in this case, I guess the greatest irony,tragic irony,in our boys relationship was that Ennis spent half his life protecting himself,but above all,protecting Jack against all the dangers they could run for being catched for "this thing";this was really the reason,and perhaps sometimes the excuse,for having put a wall of negation between Jack´s dreams and hopes and the reality.And,in the end,it happenned what he was afraid for,but after having denied a lot of happy moments that never were going to return...for the same result¡. :\'(
However,the question of curves on the "straight" Ennis´life is for me more a question of double meanings,to be written about in the respective thread.(dear Tammy,I hate to disagree with you... ) ;as a matter of fact,it´s the confirmation of his fears,that his attitude before life was the correct one.If you take a curve when  everything must be straight,you´ll have some problems;there was a curve in his parents way and a curve in Ennis´sexual and love life.The result is the same,IMO.

I do agree that that is a great irony.  I believe Ennis sincerely believed that he did his best to protect Jack and himself from a hostile world, but perhaps ended up with the opposite effect.  Sad to think that people with the best intentions can't always see what actions might lead to, no matter how well planned or well-meaning.

[tpe]

Hi, babytammy7, thank you for bring this topic to our attention. I also think life is full of irony, and Brokeback Mountain, too, since the movie is such an amazing reproduction or real life.

You bring forward a couple observations that totally escaped, but is so valuable to understand Ennis' character. I agree that the curve in the road analogy works here. Ennis indeed is very anal-retentive, everything has to be just right. It is indeed ironic that his happiness is found in things not so straight. Jack's life is also filled with irony, as you said. I think His death on the highway was certainly symbolic of his life, always search for happiness, but never finding it, not even in death. And I think it is what Ennis wants, to fulfill his wish, when he said in the last scene, Jack I swear, because that was the one loving act that may redeem his own irony, of wanting Jack, and not wanting him at the same time.

Wonderful observations here, lance. And yes, it did not escape me that Ennis had that great inner "irony" in the person of Jack himself.

[lancecowboy]

I do agree that that is a great irony.  I believe Ennis sincerely believed that he did his best to protect Jack and himself from a hostile world, but perhaps ended up with the opposite effect.  Sad to think that people with the best intentions can't always see what actions might lead to, no matter how well planned or well-meaning.

I think perhaps it was Ennis' lack of ability to change that make the story tragic when he finally manage to change, with the help of Cassie, that Jack died. If he managed to change faster, or sooner, or if Jack didn't die so young, the story would have a happy ending.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis who believed he was stuck with what he had,  was the one that was divorced, and Jack who believed they could of had a real "sweet life", died married.  Ironic isn't it. 

 

[lancecowboy]

Ennis who believed he was stuck with what he had,  was the one that was divorced, and Jack who believed they could of had a real "sweet life", died married.  Ironic isn't it. 
 

YES!

The one who thought he was stuck, ended up changing the most!

The one who wanted to change the world, to blaze a new path, to start a sweet life, ended up dead.

Brokeback Mountain is such a profound movie. I love every layer of it, no matter how sad and bittersweet, because real life is also full of irony and the bittersweet taste that goes on forever...PBS hit me hard today. I almost started crying right there out on the pavement.  :\'(

Fortunately, the weather was sunny and breezy, perfect for me, though may be a bit chilly for others. I walked for almost an hour and felt better afterwards, as usually the case. Oops, OT.   

Thanks, manhattangirl. Your usual perceptive observation always get me going with my own reflections.

[tpe]

Thanks manhattangirl and lance.  So many ironies in this movie.

One other irony occurred to me just now, being reminded of Cassie.  Isn't it funny that in the night scene that comes before the last confrontation scene, we hear Ennis saying that he was "putting the blocks" on Cassie, while Jack follows this up with an oblique confession that he was starting an affair?

Of course, I interpret jack's confession to really refer to Randall, and not Randall's wife.  Assuming that this is true, I felt that Ennis's statement that he was putting the blocks on someone made Jack a bit guilty.  It probably made him think that he should be putting the blocks on Randall too.  While we shall never know the full extent of Jack's relationship with Randall (and maybe there was none at all), Jack must have had this in mind when Ennis was telling him about Cassie...

Just a thought.
 

[lancecowboy]

Thanks manhattangirl and lance.  So many ironies in this movie.

One other irony occurred to me just now, being reminded of Cassie.  Isn't it funny that in the night scene that comes before the last confrontation scene, we hear Ennis saying that he was "putting the blocks" on Cassie, while Jack follows this up with an oblique confession that he was starting an affair?

Of course, I interpret jack's confession to really refer to Randall, and not Randall's wife.  Assuming that this is true, I felt that Ennis's statement that he was putting the blocks on someone made Jack a bit guilty.  It probably made him think that he should be putting the blocks on Randall too.  While we shall never know the full extent of Jack's relationship with Randall (and maybe there was none at all), Jack must have had this in mind when Ennis was telling him about Cassie...

Just a thought.

The conversation started with Jack asking Ennis, same as Alma did, that Ennis never found anyone else to marry. This took place while they were sitting on lawn chairs, looking at the scenery, finishing a bottle of whiskey, and smoking dope. Ennis was visibly shivering. Jack was warm in his big parka. Also, the statement before Jack's question was about the weather.

I think Jack was getting bored with the relationship, yearning for the warmth of Mexico, and feeling guilty about his affair with Randall. He tried to confess but with a noticeable pause, ended up saying it was the wife. I think he knew, correctly, that Ennis would not react kindly to him seeing another man.

The whole lack of deeper communication in this relationship troubled me from the beginning, and is, IMO, what made the movie so tragic...if they only could... :\'(

[tpe]

The conversation started with Jack asking Ennis, same as Alma did, that Ennis never found anyone else to marry. This took place while they were sitting on lawn chairs, looking at the scenery, finishing a bottle of whiskey, and smoking dope. Ennis was visibly shivering. Jack was warm in his big parka. Also, the statement before Jack's question was about the weather.

I think Jack was getting bored with the relationship, yearning for the warmth of Mexico, and feeling guilty about his affair with Randall. He tried to confess but with a noticeable pause, ended up saying it was the wife. I think he knew, correctly, that Ennis would not react kindly to him seeing another man.

The whole lack of deeper communication in this relationship troubled me from the beginning, and is, IMO, what made the movie so tragic...if they only could... :\'(

I don't know if Jack was feeling bored.  I think he was suspicious.  Or perhaps he was truly concerned for Ennis. 
Marriage was their standard cover, no?  It kept prying eyes at bay.  Jack might have felt that him staying single in that place would only rouse suspicions.  That in and of itself would be ironic, if it turned out that Jack himself was suspicious. 

[lancecowboy]

I don't know if Jack was feeling bored.  I think he was suspicious.  Or perhaps he was truly concerned for Ennis. 
Marriage was their standard cover, no?  It kept prying eyes at bay.  Jack might have felt that him staying single in that place would only rouse suspicions.  That in and of itself would be ironic, if it turned out that Jack himself was suspicious. 

You may be right that it was out of concern for Ennis. I don't think Jack worried much about suspicions. It's just not in his nature. Maybe it's also a way for him to get up the courage to ask Ennis about starting a sweet life together. I know how I'd feel if I got rejected next to the river after their reunion. It would be hard to bring it up again, no matter how much I want it. After all, Jack said after that, hesitantly, sometime he missed Ennis so much that he could hardly stand it.

Da@#$!! It too fricking early to get PBS. I don't know what I am thinking. :\'(

[tpe]

You may be right that it was out of concern for Ennis. I don't think Jack worried much about suspicions. It's just not in his nature. Maybe it's also a way for him to get up the courage to ask Ennis about starting a sweet life together. I know how I'd feel if I got rejected next to the river after their reunion. It would be hard to bring it up again, no matter how much I want it. After all, Jack said after that, hesitantly, sometime he missed Ennis so much that he could hardly stand it.

Da@#$!! It too fricking early to get PBS. I don't know what I am thinking. :\'(

Oh lance, don't get me started on PBS! 

I also find it ironic that although they really understood each other, they pretty much hid a lot of things from each other also.  I suspect nonetheless that what one tried to hide became pretty transparent to the other anyway...

[welshwitch]

Isn't it also one of the great ironies of love that we often hide things that we should share and vice versa? Ennis hid his need for Jack under a casual reference to a woman he clearly thought of in somewhat derogatory terms - " putting the blocks to" hardly sounds romantic! - and by doing so gave Jack the impression hthat he was at least coping with life in Riverton; ironically Jack does the same, with the reference to the ranch foreman's wife. And ironically they both said "I ain't queer" at the beginning, are denying or trying to deny it now, and yet have been living a life where being queer has been the only meaningful aspect for both of them.

[Lady Ashkenazi]

Isn't it also one of the great ironies of love that we often hide things that we should share and vice versa? Ennis hid his need for Jack under a casual reference to a woman he clearly thought of in somewhat derogatory terms - " putting the blocks to" hardly sounds romantic! - and by doing so gave Jack the impression hthat he was at least coping with life in Riverton; ironically Jack does the same, with the reference to the ranch foreman's wife. And ironically they both said "I ain't queer" at the beginning, are denying or trying to deny it now, and yet have been living a life where being queer has been the only meaningful aspect for both of them.

So True it means more to them the "queer reletionship" or "This Thing"  they had than anything else, that is really Ironic because Ennis was afraid to be outed and that this could affect in some certain type his masculinity and at the end that was the most important thing. Every time I see the movie think that it was kinda ironic that they were able to display so much love to themselves but so afraid to tell it to the world their fears were in fact the irony in this movie I fear people think I'm a queer, so I kiss you in the middle of the street.  I fear you would be scared If i tell you i have another affair with a man so i'll tell you it is a woman. I mean the inconsistence of their relationship was so real that made us realize their love. It is ironic one is afraid to get in a commitment yet we knew that this was his expression of love. We knew the other had more than one man yet we know he was the only one for him. Ironic isn't?
 

[tpe]

Isn't it also one of the great ironies of love that we often hide things that we should share and vice versa? Ennis hid his need for Jack under a casual reference to a woman he clearly thought of in somewhat derogatory terms - " putting the blocks to" hardly sounds romantic! - and by doing so gave Jack the impression hthat he was at least coping with life in Riverton; ironically Jack does the same, with the reference to the ranch foreman's wife. And ironically they both said "I ain't queer" at the beginning, are denying or trying to deny it now, and yet have been living a life where being queer has been the only meaningful aspect for both of them.

Love is part irony, no?  I am not being flippant wehen I say this. 

A study of love and homophobia in the land of the pure cowboy, and Ennis loving Jack in spite of himself -- there is irony in the very heart of BBM.

 

[ayasha]

We all play many roles in our lives: A man is a bad father for his kids, a good son for his folks, a hard boss to his workers, but a docile husband to his wife and a long etc..Under all these roles we have to play there's an only soul, our true essence.

Ennis was handicapped to be a good lover for Jake (in the most spiritual sense of the word), due to his child traumas. But, to me, as I've mentioned in other posts, their love was far beyond social roles, they were soulmates. Despite all their fears, problems, misunderstandings and conflicts, the true Ennis and the true Jack knew each other perfectly, understood each other, loved each other purely. Jack's death cleansed Ennis' heart of all the 'trivial' things that polluted their relationship, and left the truth undercovered for himself: Jack loved him and he loved Jack, and both of them always knew it.

Love and life are ironical, we waste too much time and energies in things which are not really important themselves or even important for us  :\'(

[tpe]

We all play many roles in our lives: A man is a bad father for his kids, a good son for his folks, a hard boss to his workers, but a docile husband to his wife and a long etc..Under all these roles we have to play there's an only soul, our true essence.

Ennis was handicapped to be a good lover for Jake (in the most spiritual sense of the word), due to his child traumas. But, to me, as I've mentioned in other posts, their love was far beyond social roles, they were soulmates. Despite all their fears, problems, misunderstandings and conflicts, the true Ennis and the true Jack knew each other perfectly, understood each other, loved each other purely. Jack's death cleansed Ennis' heart of all the 'trivial' things that polluted their relationship, and left the truth undercovered for himself: Jack loved him and he loved Jack, and both of them always knew it.

Love and life are ironical, we waste too much time and energies in things which are not really important themselves or even important for us  :\'(

Beautifully said!  So many beauties here...

As to Jack's death cleansing Ennis's heart, it is the famed liebestod, or love-death.

[ayasha]

Beautifully said!  So many beauties here...

As to Jack's death cleansing Ennis's heart, it is the famed liebestod, or love-death.

I'd never heard about 'liebestod' before, just made a quick search in google and there's a reference to Wagner's opera "Tristan und Isolde":

<<One of the most beautiful, passionate musical works ever written is Richard Wagner’s opera, Tristan und Isolde.  The 19th century conductor Hans von Bülow called it “the zenith of musical art up to now!” And some of the greatest music from it is the final scene, which has come to be known as the “Liebestod,” or “Love-Death.”  Wagner himself called it Isolde's Verklärung, which means "a coming to clarity">>

Beautiful  :\'( thanks for pointing

[lancecowboy]

Oh lance, don't get me started on PBS! 

I also find it ironic that although they really understood each other, they pretty much hid a lot of things from each other also.  I suspect nonetheless that what one tried to hide became pretty transparent to the other anyway...

Yeah, well, I was on the verge of tears most of today. 

It is ironic, but also natural. I think when two people understand each other so easily as these two, they sometimes mistake their understanding with the truth when the issue is more complex,  deeper than usual. As you said, they hid so much, and with anything hidden, there is usually misunderstanding. I don't think they see everything that's hidden, just enough to make the situation worse, such as when Jack sees Ennis' reluctance to move in together, or Ennis' seeing Jack's attraction to Mexico. They see only a part of the picture, and not the whole. Without the usual practice in communication (since they understood each other so easily normally) they are stuck with misconceptions, and an inability to change and evolve. They are literally stuck, as Ennis' thought.

Irony is the result, in this case, of the double edge sword of their great gift, of being able to understand each other so easily.

[tpe]

I'd never heard about 'liebestod' before, just made a quick search in google and there's a reference to Wagner's opera "Tristan und Isolde":

<<One of the most beautiful, passionate musical works ever written is Richard Wagner’s opera, Tristan und Isolde.  The 19th century conductor Hans von Bülow called it “the zenith of musical art up to now!” And some of the greatest music from it is the final scene, which has come to be known as the “Liebestod,” or “Love-Death.”  Wagner himself called it Isolde's Verklärung, which means "a coming to clarity">>

Beautiful  :\'( thanks for pointing

You're welcome, ayashae.  "a coming to clarity" is indeed a beatiful way of describing it.

From 2 opposing forces: love and death, one may yet come to a deeper understanding of the other.  Even here, there is irony.

[tpe]

I'd never heard about 'liebestod' before, just made a quick search in google and there's a reference to Wagner's opera "Tristan und Isolde":

<<One of the most beautiful, passionate musical works ever written is Richard Wagner’s opera, Tristan und Isolde.  The 19th century conductor Hans von Bülow called it “the zenith of musical art up to now!” And some of the greatest music from it is the final scene, which has come to be known as the “Liebestod,” or “Love-Death.”  Wagner himself called it Isolde's Verklärung, which means "a coming to clarity">>

Beautiful  :\'( thanks for pointing

I looked up the same reference you cited online.  It has many very beautiful points, especially this:


Something like struggle is needed by the human being.  Something even like discontent is needed by the human being. ….One cannot think of a world made up of smooth roads strewn with roses and bordered by exceedingly accessible marshmallows.  The world, like the human body, is a compound of resistance and ease, obstruction and going forward, obstacle and companion.

[tpe]

Yeah, well, I was on the verge of tears most of today. 

It is ironic, but also natural. I think when two people understand each other so easily as these two, they sometimes mistake their understanding with the truth when the issue is more complex,  deeper than usual. As you said, they hid so much, and with anything hidden, there is usually misunderstanding. I don't think they see everything that's hidden, just enough to make the situation worse, such as when Jack sees Ennis' reluctance to move in together, or Ennis' seeing Jack's attraction to Mexico. They see only a part of the picture, and not the whole. Without the usual practice in communication (since they understood each other so easily normally) they are stuck with misconceptions, and an inability to change and evolve. They are literally stuck, as Ennis' thought.

Irony is the result, in this case, of the double edge sword of their great gift, of being able to understand each other so easily.

AS you hinted here, lance, irony arises from the ste of human experience wherein we cannot know all and cannot peer deeper into waht is to come and what is to be.  Irony comes at a mon=ment of realization when one either falls or ascends.  In the case of Ennis and Jack, the irony is embodied in the fact that as much as they did hide a lot, their moments of greatest clarity come from their knowing how much depended on the other, even without the other realizing this.  The understanding that comes not from knowledge is therefore at the heart of ironic BBM. 

[ayasha]

I looked up the same reference you cited online.  It has many very beautiful points, especially this:


Something like struggle is needed by the human being.  Something even like discontent is needed by the human being. ….One cannot think of a world made up of smooth roads strewn with roses and bordered by exceedingly accessible marshmallows.  The world, like the human body, is a compound of resistance and ease, obstruction and going forward, obstacle and companion.

Yes, it's a beautiful article isn't it?, and the point you've just mentioned is the most ironic of all...actually there's no map for human spirit 

[tpe]

Yes, it's a beautiful article isn't it?, and the point you've just mentioned is the most ironic of all...  

No map, and yet we all try to find our way.