Author Topic: "Did You Ever Get The Feeling He knew That She Knew?" (Read 29149 times)

aintfoolin · « **Reply #30 on:** Jan 20, 2008, 05:22 PM »

Exactly! And that's more than he gave Alma.

tpe · « **Reply #31 on:** Jan 22, 2008, 09:04 AM »

What I found most interesting was that not only did Ennis know that she knew, but that Alma knew that Ennis knew that she knew. Am I getting convoluted here? Well think about it. The double realization on Alma's part would seem to explain his pointed indifference to Alma -- sometimes bordering on malice. Perhaps she deliberately wanted to rub salt on the wound at certain moments in their failed marriage.

Halenfarewell · « **Reply #32 on:** Feb 07, 2008, 11:28 PM »

Hi, I don't think that Ennis had any idea that Alma knew until that Thanksgiving.
Ann

tpe · « **Reply #33 on:** Feb 08, 2008, 08:25 AM »

Quote from: Halenfarewell on Feb 07, 2008, 11:28 PM

Hi, I don't think that Ennis had any idea that Alma knew until that Thanksgiving.
Ann

Interesting, Halenfarewell! So you think that Ennis's careless behavior was just that -- mindless carelessness. Well, it certainly could have been. Somehow though, I feel that a person as paranoid as Ennis would have been more careful/guarded, unless he knew that the other already knew. Do you get what I mean?

aintfoolin · « **Reply #34 on:** Feb 12, 2008, 11:34 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jan 22, 2008, 09:04 AM

What I found most interesting was that not only did Ennis know that she knew, but that Alma knew that Ennis knew that she knew. Am I getting convoluted here? Well think about it. The double realization on Alma's part would seem to explain his pointed indifference to Alma -- sometimes bordering on malice. Perhaps she deliberately wanted to rub salt on the wound at certain moments in their failed marriage.

In the Thanksgiving scene, Alma lets Ennis know that she was no longer required to keep the secret hidden anymore. That she was not going to let Ennis string her along any longer in an unspoken silent acknowledgement . She was not going to played a fool by him anymore. She just finally said it out loud. It just hit too close to home for Ennis and gets violent, then bolts to engage in what Ennis does very well. Punishing himself for his "crimes". He must pay a price for his "guilt" for not being honest with her.. Lays down in the fight, and lets the trucker have the upper hand. His sacrifice.
He knew she knew ,though it's still not enough to keep him from meeting Jack, the culprit in Alma's eyes, but a savior in his. My take.

tpe · « **Reply #35 on:** Feb 19, 2008, 09:25 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Feb 12, 2008, 11:34 PM

In the Thanksgiving scene, Alma lets Ennis know that she was no longer required to keep the secret hidden anymore. That she was not going to let Ennis string her along any longer in an unspoken silent acknowledgement . She was not going to played a fool by him anymore. She just finally said it out loud. It just hit too close to home for Ennis and gets violent, then bolts to engage in what Ennis does very well. Punishing himself for his "crimes". He must pay a price for his "guilt" for not being honest with her.. Lays down in the fight, and lets the trucker have the upper hand. His sacrifice.
He knew she knew ,though it's still not enough to keep him from meeting Jack, the culprit in Alma's eyes, but a savior in his. My take.

I find it very telling that Ennis didn't react to her knowing it all during the Thanksgiving scene. Rather, she reacted to her talking about it. I somehow go the impression that he was not surprised or taken aback by the fact that she knew. But he certainly reacted to the "insolence" of bringing it out in the open. Ennis's rage was caused by a feeling that she had crossed the line. I think at that point, Ennis didn't care if she told anybody, provided that she was able to keep things quiet and under the surdace, so to speak.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #36 on:** Feb 19, 2008, 04:38 PM »

I agree, from the moment Alma spoke of tying the note to the fishing line, Ennis knew the * cat was out of the bag" . He now knew she knew without a doubt. I did'nt sense surprise from Ennis either, but he was'nt gonna stand by and listen to Alma degrade Jack or the relationship either. At that point I think he saw her as being in the *tire iron camp*. Had she been a man, she would have found herself flat on her back, lookin up at the lights. MO.

jackster · « **Reply #37 on:** Feb 19, 2008, 04:46 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Feb 19, 2008, 04:38 PM

. . . . Had she been a man, she would have found herself flat on her back, lookin up at the lights.

Oh yeah, no doubt, I think the expression is "eat the floor"

manhattangirl · « **Reply #38 on:** Feb 19, 2008, 06:21 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jan 22, 2008, 09:04 AM

What I found most interesting was that not only did Ennis know that she knew, but that Alma knew that Ennis knew that she knew. Am I getting convoluted here? Well think about it. The double realization on Alma's part would seem to explain his pointed indifference to Alma -- sometimes bordering on malice. Perhaps she deliberately wanted to rub salt on the wound at certain moments in their failed marriage.

They were a very knowledgeable couple. But Ennis made a fatal mistake he placed blame by his careless remark, "once burn", that passive aggressive Ennis broke the rule, subtlety placing it at Alma's feet.

He laid a lot at Alma's feet, everything but himself. I always believed that if he made an effort at bringing Alma part way in his life, she would have stayed with him, and tolerated the "fishing trips", but he wasn't smart enough to see that or gave too much to Jack that there was nothing left for her.

For me it wasn't so much that Jack was a man, that eats away at Alma, (ok that could be part of it, but a small part), it was that fact that Ennis wanted someone else. If it was Cassie that she saw Ennis kissing that day, I think she would have reacted that same way. Alma had a rival, someone else is getting what was hers, and he was giving it away to someone else. That Thanksgiving night could have easily been about Cassie, and not Jack.

My take.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #39 on:** Feb 20, 2008, 06:56 AM »

Quote from: jackster on Feb 19, 2008, 04:46 PM

Oh yeah, no doubt, I think the expression is "eat the floor"

I stand corrected .

tpe · « **Reply #40 on:** Feb 20, 2008, 09:35 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Feb 19, 2008, 06:21 PM

They were a very knowledgeable couple. But Ennis made a fatal mistake he placed blame by his careless remark, "once burn", that passive aggressive Ennis broke the rule, subtlety placing it at Alma's feet.

He laid a lot at Alma's feet, everything but himself. I always believed that if he made an effort at bringing Alma part way in his life, she would have stayed with him, and tolerated the "fishing trips", but he wasn't smart enough to see that or gave too much to Jack that there was nothing left for her.

For me it wasn't so much that Jack was a man, that eats away at Alma, (ok that could be part of it, but a small part), it was that fact that Ennis wanted someone else. If it was Cassie that she saw Ennis kissing that day, I think she would have reacted that same way. Alma had a rival, someone else is getting what was hers, and he was giving it away to someone else. That Thanksgiving night could have easily been about Cassie, and not Jack.

My take.

I agree that he could have done more to maintain even a semblance (pretense?) of marriage with Alma. After all, Alma seemed willing to play the game, in spite of her initial tears. I think she loved Ennis enough to basically look the other way, so long as he acknowledged that she was owed certain things, given that she aas his wife and the mother of his children. Alas, Ennis was not even willing to play by those rules, and I feel that I can't blame her that much for acting the way she did.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #41 on:** Feb 20, 2008, 09:49 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Feb 20, 2008, 09:35 AM

I agree that he could have done more to maintain even a semblance (pretense?) of marriage with Alma. After all, Alma seemed willing to play the game, in spite of her initial tears. I think she loved Ennis enough to basically look the other way, so long as he acknowledged that she was owed certain things, given that she aas his wife and the mother of his children. Alas, Ennis was not even willing to play by those rules, and I feel that I can't blame her that much for acting the way she did.

I think that if Alma was really willing to play the game of a"happy marriage" is because she was a conventional woman who was born to be a wife and a mother and who didn't expect nor pretend anything else in her life.-even if the price to pay was too expensive...-.Neither did Ennis,who had moreover,the social pressure against him,to disguise his marriage as the happiest one could find.What surprises me is that Ennis wasn't a little more careful about his secret,bearing in mind that the most attached he was to Jack,the littlest he gave her; while he was doing more "fishing trips",his marriage and daily life with Alma was broking down more and more.It would be easy to any wife suspect something,and it would be easy too for any husband supposing his wife could suspect-even if he didn't ever know,nor suspect,she knew it...-.It seems one of the many Ennis contradictions in a man with so many paranoias and fears.

tpe · « **Reply #42 on:** Feb 21, 2008, 08:24 AM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Feb 20, 2008, 09:49 AM

I think that if Alma was really willing to play the game of a"happy marriage" is because she was a conventional woman who was born to be a wife and a mother and who didn't expect nor pretend anything else in her life.-even if the price to pay was too expensive...-.Neither did Ennis,who had moreover,the social pressure against him,to disguise his marriage as the happiest one could find.What surprises me is that Ennis wasn't a little more careful about his secret,bearing in mind that the most attached he was to Jack,the littlest he gave her; while he was doing more "fishing trips",his marriage and daily life with Alma was broking down more and more.It would be easy to any wife suspect something,and it would be easy too for any husband supposing his wife could suspect-even if he didn't ever know,nor suspect,she knew it...-.It seems one of the many Ennis contradictions in a man with so many paranoias and fears.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The word "conventionality" or the ideal of it is at the root of why she bore all this for so long, even though the knowledge of the truth must have undermined her sense of pride and dignity as wife and mother.

Ennis confuses me in this regard also. Perhaps initially he was willing to play the game? But something may have turned him off over the years. It seems like his sense of fatherhood withstood the test of time, even as the marriage itself deteriorated.

One can ask the corollary question as to whether he suspected that his children knew, but that is another subject (I think this was discussed in the past in the case of Jr.)

myprivatejack · « **Reply #43 on:** Feb 21, 2008, 11:41 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Feb 21, 2008, 08:24 AM

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The word "conventionality" or the ideal of it is at the root of why she bore all this for so long, even though the knowledge of the truth must have undermined her sense of pride and dignity as wife and mother.

Ennis confuses me in this regard also. Perhaps initially he was willing to play the game? But something may have turned him off over the years. It seems like his sense of fatherhood withstood the test of time, even as the marriage itself deteriorated.

One can ask the corollary question as to whether he suspected that his children knew, but that is another subject (I think this was discussed in the past in the case of Jr.)

Well,I've always thought that Ennis loved and,even,could be in love with Alma in the beginning of their relationship-really,in love in "Ennis style"...-; he has found a woman who could give him love and cares,two things that he had always been looking for.And at the same time,he would had a social respectability,making what a man is supposed to do;good enough for his tendencies -very hidden until Jack's appearance-that for me have been provoked by his father's teaching about how bad they were-I´ve spoken about this in another thread...-.
Of course,mainly after his discovery in the mountain,playing the game for him was ,how do you say that?,"killing two birds with one stone",isn't it'.So,I think,yes ,he was willing to play in despite of his real feelings and HIMSELF.Moreover,as you say very well,his duties as a father were at the end fairly much before his husband's duties; and also were an easy excuse for not comitting him with Jack's wishes and,so,not being obliged to play "another game" he wished,but he was not prepared to.

tpe · « **Reply #44 on:** Feb 22, 2008, 08:26 AM »

I do agree that Ennis probably loved Alma in his own way, even after the reunion -- although it may have eroded as Alma became more combative and more independent. I think this love was part of the confusion. He didn't love her the way he loved Jack, but it was love nonetheless -- even perhaps after they realized the relaities of their situations.

The marriage did provide both of them with some measure of social acceptability. This and the children go a long way in explaining their trying to make do in the face of a deteriorating marriage. The knowledge that each of them knew what the other knew didn't seem to make that much of a difference, provided that it was tacitly/implicitly glossed over.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #45 on:** Feb 23, 2008, 12:38 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Feb 22, 2008, 08:26 AM

I do agree that Ennis probably loved Alma in his own way, even after the reunion -- although it may have eroded as Alma became more combative and more independent. I think this love was part of the confusion. He didn't love her the way he loved Jack, but it was love nonetheless -- even perhaps after they realized the relaities of their situations.

The marriage did provide both of them with some measure of social acceptability. This and the children go a long way in explaining their trying to make do in the face of a deteriorating marriage. The knowledge that each of them knew what the other knew didn't seem to make that much of a difference, provided that it was tacitly/implicitly glossed over.

week ends here are lonlier when tpe is not around plus no one posts the amazing jake pictures :\'(

heathlover1 · « **Reply #46 on:** Mar 02, 2008, 10:22 PM »

Heath actually kind of explains, and maybe spoils for some who haven't seen it, a lot of these things in an interview that I have on my Heath myspace site. I have over 20 video interviews of Heath on there.

Also, on the Oprah show, Ann Hathaway gives away whether or not she was telling Ennis the truth at the end. Total spoiler there!

I have that entire Oprah show, but I have to keep it hidden because of copywrite issues. If anybody wants to see it, unless there are 100 of you :-), I will get it to you.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #47 on:** Mar 03, 2008, 01:42 PM »

Quote from: heathlover1 on Mar 02, 2008, 10:22 PM

Heath actually kind of explains, and maybe spoils for some who haven't seen it, a lot of these things in an interview that I have on my Heath myspace site. I have over 20 video interviews of Heath on there.

Also, on the Oprah show, Ann Hathaway gives away whether or not she was telling Ennis the truth at the end. Total spoiler there!

I have that entire Oprah show, but I have to keep it hidden because of copywrite issues. If anybody wants to see it, unless there are 100 of you :-), I will get it to you.

i would love to see it i have been trying to find it for so long it is always just removed from websites same as the ones of jake singing

heathlover1 · « **Reply #48 on:** Mar 03, 2008, 01:57 PM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Mar 03, 2008, 01:42 PM

i would love to see it i have been trying to find it for so long it is always just removed from websites same as the ones of jake singing

What's your deal? You're a straight guy with a crush on Jake? I kind of always thought that Ennis was straight but happened to have fallen in love with a man.

I didn't know there was a video of Jake singing. I wonder why they would take that down.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #49 on:** Mar 03, 2008, 02:02 PM »

Quote from: heathlover1 on Mar 03, 2008, 01:57 PM

What's your deal? You're a straight guy with a crush on Jake? I kind of always thought that Ennis was straight but happened to have fallen in love with a man.

well im straight except for jake i looooooove him he is to hoooooooooooooot, he is the only guy i have ever liked but i like him more than any woman he is beyond perfect and i would lie to do very rude things with

so thats basically my story im straight except for jake lol but i mean how couldnt i be in love with jake

just thinking off him makes me so so hot

heathlover1 · « **Reply #50 on:** Mar 03, 2008, 02:06 PM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Mar 03, 2008, 02:02 PM

well im straight except for jake i looooooove him he is to hoooooooooooooot, he is the only guy i have ever liked but i like him more than any woman he is beyond perfect and i would lie to do very rude things with so thats basically my story im straight except for jake lol but i mean how couldnt i be in love with jake just thinking off him makes me so so hot

I think Ennis could relate to you, but he'd be a bit more understated about it.

welshwitch · « **Reply #51 on:** Mar 03, 2008, 02:06 PM »

Could we please get back to the subject of the thread?

heathlover1 · « **Reply #52 on:** Mar 03, 2008, 02:09 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Mar 03, 2008, 02:06 PM

Could we please get back to the subject of the thread?

What was the thread? The current conversation has been going on so long, I forgot.

Should we start a new thread with the current topic, or is that inappropriate?

heathlover1 · « **Reply #53 on:** Mar 03, 2008, 02:11 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Mar 03, 2008, 02:06 PM

Could we please get back to the subject of the thread?

I should have read the rules. Is there not supposed to be any discussion with sexual content? If so, I apologize.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #54 on:** Mar 03, 2008, 02:14 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Mar 03, 2008, 02:06 PM

Could we please get back to the subject of the thread?

okay,

for the rule breaking

Quote from: heathlover1 on Mar 03, 2008, 02:09 PM

What was the thread? The current conversation has been going on so long, I forgot.

Should we start a new thread with the current topic, or is that inappropriate?

ermm its not inapropriate to start a topic about people sexual orientation and such but you should check first to make sure one doesnt alread exisist.

and too answer the question i think ennis maybe was aware alma new SOMETHING was going on i didnt think he knew the extent of what she knew but he was always kind of quiet when she mentioned jack as if he knew she had figured it out but he didnt want to give it away more although it is ennis we are talking about and he never said much about anything so i guess that maybe isnt a factor oh well, there is a little theorie of mine hop it made sense

heathlover1 · « **Reply #55 on:** Mar 03, 2008, 02:17 PM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Mar 03, 2008, 02:14 PM

okay, for the rule breaking

ermm its not inapropriate to start a topic about people sexual orientation and such but you should check first to make sure one doesnt alread exisist

OK. That's not something I ever would have done if his signature hadn't talked about having a man crush.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #56 on:** Mar 04, 2008, 06:37 AM »

Quote from: heathlover1 on Mar 03, 2008, 02:11 PM

I should have read the rules. Is there not supposed to be any discussion with sexual content? If so, I apologize.

There are many thread topics in the forum involving sexual content. I think the moderators want us to stay within the topic of each particular thread. This one happens to be about wether Ennis knew that Alma knew about he and Jack. Others (older) may be revived at any time, or a new one maybe started by members. This is what I understand.

I do get the feeling he knew that she knew. I think it's part of the reason he tried so hard to fufill his obligations to his girls. What Alma knew could have kept him away from them if she chose to talk. He did adore his daughters. As long as she kept quiet about it , Ennis could live with the fact that she knew.He knew Jack was'nt gonna tell, but his suspicions about her knowing left him a little paranoic, but not enough to keep him from meeting Jack. My opinion.

Matt Nasty · « **Reply #57 on:** Mar 04, 2008, 06:50 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 04, 2008, 06:37 AM

I do get the feeling he knew that she knew. I think it's part of the reason he tried so hard to fufill his obligations to his girls. What Alma knew could have kept him away from them if she chose to talk. He did adore his daughters. As long as she kept quiet about it , Ennis could live with the fact that she knew.He knew Jack was'nt gonna tell, but his suspicions about her knowing left him a little paranoic, but not enough to keep him from meeting Jack. My opinion.

hmmm good point.

heathlover1 · « **Reply #58 on:** Mar 04, 2008, 06:56 AM »

Quote from: zankou1991 on Mar 04, 2008, 06:50 AM

hmmm good point.

Alma HAD TO have told Monroe. And maybe because her dad never did remarry or really date, and that huge fight on Thanksgiving. Maybe she was told, or she just figured it out.

She was jealous of Cassie taking time away from her spending tiime with her dad. Cassie was inconsiderate to take him away from his daughter so she could dance with him. All she wanted to do was spend time with him.

Alma Jr. was always so afraid and hesitant to talk to Ennis, and I always wondered why. It was like she thought he was going to yell at her or something. I found that strange.

I would love to hear anybody's thoughts on that. Ennis was always really sweet to her and never told her what she could or couldn't do.

chameau · « **Reply #59 on:** Mar 04, 2008, 10:05 PM »

Quote from: heathlover1 on Mar 03, 2008, 02:09 PM

What was the thread? The current conversation has been going on so long, I forgot.

Should we start a new thread with the current topic, or is that inappropriate?

Erm... may I suggest you read the tittle of this thread?