Author Topic: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?  (Read 71806 times)

athena0204

  • Guest
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #90 on: Mar 19, 2008, 11:43 AM »
I think Ennis was bothered not to see Jack anymore here on Earth.But I don't know if we know it for sure or it's what we'd wish to happen; maybe there's another place in another plane where the old lovers could find themselves again to be happy forever.

Yes, that's what I believe too. There is another life, a better place where they will be reunited and together forever. Young, free, and happy. I think that's what Ennis held onto all those years he lived after Jack's death.

Offline anne

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #91 on: Apr 20, 2008, 01:21 PM »
I can't understand...

"Ennis Del Mar"... he used to say...
"I’m gonna bring him up
here one of these days... "
"... and we’ll lick this
damn ranch into shape"
He had some half-baked notion the
two of you was gonna move up here
...build a cabin...
...help run the place
Then this spring...
he got another fella gonna
come up here with him...
...build the place...
help run the ranch
Some ranch neighbour of
his from down in Texas...
Gonna split up with his
wife and come back here...
so he says...
But, like most of Jack’s ideas...
never come to pass...



That's what John Twist said to Ennis.

 &*&

I don't want to think, that Jack was going break up with Ennis and live with another guy.  :\'( :\'(

Poor Ennis. :(

Offline aintfoolin

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • Gender: Female
  • " You and him did'nt go up there to fish"...
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #92 on: Apr 21, 2008, 03:48 AM »
It's Randall, Jack and Lureen's ranch neighbor.  Apparently Jack was at least thinking about bringing Randall to Lighting Flat, his parent's ranch. He must have been seriously thinking about quitting Ennis, or he was at a very low point in his life, it's one in the same.  Randall was the alternative to Ennis's non-committal. He was everything Ennis was'nt, sucessesful , and educated with a degree in animals and ranching. . , and  the nerve to come on to Jack at the charity dance. . Jack apparently mentioned Ennis and Randall to his parents as friends who were gonna help Jack fix up the ranch and help run it.  niether one ever made it.

Mr. Twist was expressing his  jeaulous disappointment in Jack and his disapproval of his lifesyle. His mentioned of Randall was designed to hurt and humiliate Ennis  at a time when the  real nature of their relationship is understood. and Ennis realizes it.  The old man has Some nerve for someone who shut his own son out of his life.

In my opinion, we can speculate about this relationship between Randall and Jack. Personally, I think they were occaissional lovers, but beyond that, we the veiwers are not privy to the depth of feelings here. There's a whole thread on him with various opinions and perspectives about him and how he fits in Jack's life.

 
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline anne

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #93 on: Apr 21, 2008, 04:21 AM »
Oh. I hope Jack hasn't feelings to Randall.  :\'(

And I hope, if  Jack was alive, he would live with Ennis, not with Randall.


I hate Randall.  >:(

Offline anne

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #94 on: Apr 21, 2008, 04:23 AM »
Maybe he killed Jack.   :-\\

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #95 on: Apr 21, 2008, 07:22 AM »
That is too harsh and speculative to say, IMO.  I can understand lack of sympathy for Randall, but there is really no specific cause to hate him, no?  If there was something between Jack and Randall, it must have been carried out with tacit understanding on both sides.

Jack didn't love Randall as much as he loved Ennis, but perhaps he was willing to move on with life and live with Jack (although this is not strictly stated in the final cut of the movie).  If he was indeed willing, then perhaps he deserves our sympathy rather than our hate.


Offline Matt Nasty

  • formerly zankou1991
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 13666
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • I LOVE JAKE
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #96 on: Apr 21, 2008, 10:02 AM »
That is too harsh and speculative to say, IMO.  I can understand lack of sympathy for Randall, but there is really no specific cause to hate him, no?  If there was something between Jack and Randall, it must have been carried out with tacit understanding on both sides.

Jack didn't love Randall as much as he loved Ennis, but perhaps he was willing to move on with life and live with Jack (although this is not strictly stated in the final cut of the movie).  If he was indeed willing, then perhaps he deserves our sympathy rather than our hate.


i agree, although i think even if jack got it into a relationship with randall he would soon return to jack but... we have no real reason to hate randall i jsut hate the fact of the scenario  :-\\

Offline anne

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #97 on: Apr 21, 2008, 01:22 PM »
Maybe you ar write guys.
I just wanted to see them together...   :(

Anyway, I don't like Randall. He is not wanted in relationship of Jack and Ennis. :( 




:ANGRY:

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #98 on: Apr 21, 2008, 03:01 PM »
i agree, although i think even if jack got it into a relationship with randall he would soon return to jack but... we have no real reason to hate randall i jsut hate the fact of the scenario  :-\\

I also think along these lines sometimes.  One could ask how their relationship would last.  Jack's relationship with Ennis lasted almost 20 years , in spite of everything, no?

Maybe you ar write guys.
I just wanted to see them together...   :(

Anyway, I don't like Randall. He is not wanted in relationship of Jack and Ennis. :( 

:ANGRY:

Perfectly inderstandable anne!  And believe me, you are not the only ine who thinks this way.  :)

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #99 on: Apr 21, 2008, 04:34 PM »
That is too harsh and speculative to say, IMO.  I can understand lack of sympathy for Randall, but there is really no specific cause to hate him, no?  If there was something between Jack and Randall, it must have been carried out with tacit understanding on both sides.

Jack didn't love Randall as much as he loved Ennis, but perhaps he was willing to move on with life and live with Jack (although this is not strictly stated in the final cut of the movie).  If he was indeed willing, then perhaps he deserves our sympathy rather than our hate.

I don’ hate him. I know Jack didn’t love that man, and maybe Randall didn’t love Jack too, but I think they were together for 4 or 5 years? (Thomas is that right?), so I think they could feel real affection for each other. I respect Randall because he didn’t use Jack like night’s f***. He stood by his side for a long time!!

Offline anne

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #100 on: Apr 22, 2008, 06:12 AM »
I don’ hate him. I know Jack didn’t love that man, and maybe Randall didn’t love Jack too, but I think they were together for 4 or 5 years? (Thomas is that right?), so I think they could feel real affection for each other. I respect Randall because he didn’t use Jack like night’s f***. He stood by his side for a long time!!


But Jack uses Randall like night's f***.  I think so.

Jack: And I’m not you. I can’t...
...make it on a couple
of high-altitude f***s
once or twice a year... 

That's why he was with Randall.  ???

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #101 on: Apr 22, 2008, 06:55 AM »
I don’ hate him. I know Jack didn’t love that man, and maybe Randall didn’t love Jack too, but I think they were together for 4 or 5 years? (Thomas is that right?), so I think they could feel real affection for each other. I respect Randall because he didn’t use Jack like night’s f***. He stood by his side for a long time!!

Randall remains a mystery to me -- a dark and shadowy character who was perhaps played an important role in the background.  Yes, I think they were on and off for a number of years, and I too feel some respect for Randall, because he did seem to have lasted.


But Jack uses Randall like night's f***.  I think so.

Jack: And I’m not you. I can’t...
...make it on a couple
of high-altitude f***s
once or twice a year... 

That's why he was with Randall.  ???

I think what is more telling is that Jack was willing to consider Randall as the person to sahre a ranch and a life with -- this speaks more about true intimacy and hints of deeper affection, no?


Offline anne

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #102 on: Apr 22, 2008, 01:12 PM »
Randall remains a mystery to me -- a dark and shadowy character who was perhaps played an important role in the background.  Yes, I think they were on and off for a number of years, and I too feel some respect for Randall, because he did seem to have lasted.

I think what is more telling is that Jack was willing to consider Randall as the person to sahre a ranch and a life with -- this speaks more about true intimacy and hints of deeper affection, no?




I'm afraid yes. :( 


babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #103 on: Apr 22, 2008, 04:40 PM »
Randall remains a mystery to me -- a dark and shadowy character who was perhaps played an important role in the background.  Yes, I think they were on and off for a number of years, and I too feel some respect for Randall, because he did seem to have lasted.

I think what is more telling is that Jack was willing to consider Randall as the person to sahre a ranch and a life with -- this speaks more about true intimacy and hints of deeper affection, no?


Yeah, that's right.

Offline myprivatejack

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 15750
  • Gender: Female
  • It could be like this,just like this...always
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #104 on: Apr 30, 2008, 12:18 PM »
As a kind of summary of the question,IMO having a ranch together meant for Jack the confirmation of their feelings; for Ennis,the confirmation of his fears...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #105 on: May 01, 2008, 08:28 AM »
As a kind of summary of the question,IMO having a ranch together meant for Jack the confirmation of their feelings; for Ennis,the confirmation of his fears...

I would be stronger and call it an affirmation.  I think this is what you meant, MPJ.   :^^)

Offline aintfoolin

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • Gender: Female
  • " You and him did'nt go up there to fish"...
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #106 on: May 02, 2008, 10:12 PM »
I would be stronger and call it an affirmation.  I think this is what you meant, MPJ.   :^^)

 This is true, For Jack it means their on an equal plane in taking their love to a higher level. To him it also means security, no more need to take chances looking for love in all the wrong places. Ranching up with Ennis means that Ennis is finally finding him worthy of the  sacred trust to conquer his fear. He would be home with Ennis in every sense of the word. His love and sacrifices  confirmed and made worthy at last.

For Ennis it would mean expectations of him that maybe he's not quite ready for. Though he'd wake up next to Jack every morning, There would always be that lurking thought of Earl and Rich. Though Jack feels secure ,Ennis would  continue to feel the insecurities. He's convinced that sooner or later he'd be confronted by the tire irons. That he'd have to at some point protect Jack from harm, confirming his love for Jack to the outside world. The slightest mistake on either's part, a careless gesture and they could be dead. Sadly, being apart proved more fatal in the end, and that's something he has to live with, so what difference did it make? It was Jack he sought to protect, yet it was Jack who died (in his mind, just as he invisioned and feared the most). What had he gained? He found out that what he lost by not ranching up was'nt worth the fear of not doing so, Jack was right all along.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #107 on: May 03, 2008, 09:31 AM »
This is true, For Jack it means their on an equal plane in taking their love to a higher level. To him it also means security, no more need to take chances looking for love in all the wrong places. Ranching up with Ennis means that Ennis is finally finding him worthy of the  sacred trust to conquer his fear. He would be home with Ennis in every sense of the word. His love and sacrifices  confirmed and made worthy at last.
For Ennis it would mean expectations of him that maybe he's not quite ready for. Though he'd wake up next to Jack every morning, There would always be that lurking thought of Earl and Rich. Though Jack feels secure ,Ennis would  continue to feel the insecurities. He's convinced that sooner or later he'd be confronted by the tire irons. That he'd have to at some point protect Jack from harm, confirming his love for Jack to the outside world. The slightest mistake on either's part, a careless gesture and they could be dead. Sadly, being apart proved more fatal in the end, and that's something he has to live with, so what difference did it make? It was Jack he sought to protect, yet it was Jack who died (in his mind, just as he invisioned and feared the most). What had he gained? He found out that what he lost by not ranching up was'nt worth the fear of not doing so, Jack was right all along.


I totally agree with you.

Offline welshwitch

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 6480
  • Gender: Female
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #108 on: May 03, 2008, 10:53 AM »
The ranch is also a sort of regression, to something like what they had on Brokeback, or thought they had till Aguirre intruded; they could have fenced in their land and closed the gates on the outside world, knowing that no-one could spy on or attack them. It was an impractical dream in some ways, since it entailed leaving everything - Lureen, Bobby, Alma and the girls, assuming that none of them and no-one from the "real" world would object then taking a chance that they could make it on their own in what was a difficult time and place for ranching.I have a feeling that Ennis senses vaguely that it's not possible to "call back yesterday" but Jack, with his usual hopefulness, never thinks of that.

But then when were dreams ever practical?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 10:09 AM by welshwitch »

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #109 on: May 03, 2008, 01:30 PM »
The ranch is also a sort of regression, to something like what they had on Brokeback, or thought they had till Aguirre intruded. they could have fenced in their land and closed the gates on the outside world, knowing that no-one could spy on or attack them. It was an impractical dream in some ways, since it entailed leaving everything - Lureen, Bobby, Alma and the girls, assuming that none of them and no-one from the "real" world would object then taking a chance that they could make it on their own in what was a difficult time andplace for ranching.I have a feeling that Ennis senses vaguely that it's not possible to "call back yesterday" but Jack, with his usual hopefulness, never thinks of that.

But then when were dreams ever practical?

Yeah, I think was MPJ who said that living in a ranch was like going back to BBM, having a place where they were only them.

Offline welshwitch

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 6480
  • Gender: Female
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #110 on: May 04, 2008, 10:12 AM »
I think it's less going back to the place than trying to recreate somewhere like it but with the added advantage of belonging to them, so that they could keep others away and know they were safe. They were generaly happy enough to work on Brokeback and Jack at least appears happy to contemplate going on working with Ennis. The dream is not one of material wealth or comfort, so the ranch isn't an escapist notion.

Offline myprivatejack

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 15750
  • Gender: Female
  • It could be like this,just like this...always
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #111 on: May 04, 2008, 11:37 AM »
I think it's less going back to the place than trying to recreate somewhere like it but with the added advantage of belonging to them, so that they could keep others away and know they were safe. They were generaly happy enough to work on Brokeback and Jack at least appears happy to contemplate going on working with Ennis. The dream is not one of material wealth or comfort, so the ranch isn't an escapist notion.

Yes,of course,when I said that ranching together would have been like going back to BBM,I meant recreating the freedom environment they had there.And of course too,with the added advantage of being something of their own,that could be created,arranged and LIVED everyday for the two of them.This hypothetical ranch would be,then,a metaphor of Jack's dreams,the object that would symbolise an emotional and sentimental place where everything would be as the best time of their life.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline Matt Nasty

  • formerly zankou1991
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 13666
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • I LOVE JAKE
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #112 on: May 04, 2008, 12:21 PM »
Yes,of course,when I said that ranching together would have been like going back to BBM,I meant recreating the freedom environment they had there.And of course too,with the added advantage of being something of their own,that could be created,arranged and LIVED everyday for the two of them.This hypothetical ranch would be,then,a metaphor of Jack's dreams,the object that would symbolise an emotional and sentimental place where everything would be as the best time of their life.
beautiful post  Ali  :)

Offline myprivatejack

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 15750
  • Gender: Female
  • It could be like this,just like this...always
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #113 on: May 04, 2008, 12:54 PM »
beautiful post  Ali  :)

Thanks,Matt¡    ^f^  It's how I feel about the way Jack himself felt.Because I think I'm very close to him.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #114 on: May 09, 2008, 01:33 PM »
I think it's less going back to the place than trying to recreate somewhere like it but with the added advantage of belonging to them, so that they could keep others away and know they were safe. They were generaly happy enough to work on Brokeback and Jack at least appears happy to contemplate going on working with Ennis. The dream is not one of material wealth or comfort, so the ranch isn't an escapist notion.

Very good distinction.  And I guess you could say that them being together signified a recreation.  It wasn't entirely about the physical place, would you agree?


Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #115 on: May 09, 2008, 01:35 PM »
Yes,of course,when I said that ranching together would have been like going back to BBM,I meant recreating the freedom environment they had there.And of course too,with the added advantage of being something of their own,that could be created,arranged and LIVED everyday for the two of them.This hypothetical ranch would be,then,a metaphor of Jack's dreams,the object that would symbolise an emotional and sentimental place where everything would be as the best time of their life.

beautiful post  Ali  :)

I agree.  I highlight especially the last sentence of MPJ. 

Offline aintfoolin

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • Gender: Female
  • " You and him did'nt go up there to fish"...
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #116 on: May 09, 2008, 04:11 PM »
Very good distinction.  And I guess you could say that them being together signified a recreation.  It wasn't entirely about the physical place, would you agree?



I agree, the physical  place.imo is just an added bonus. What really matters is that they would be together. There would be that whole sense of committment for life with each other and their love could grow in a more natual way. A peaceful , settled home where ever that may be. It may be a dream, but not an impossible dream.Where there's a will , there's a way? Could this have worked? I don't know, but it was worth a shot.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #117 on: May 12, 2008, 08:08 AM »
I agree, the physical  place.imo is just an added bonus. What really matters is that they would be together. There would be that whole sense of committment for life with each other and their love could grow in a more natual way. A peaceful , settled home where ever that may be. It may be a dream, but not an impossible dream.Where there's a will , there's a way? Could this have worked? I don't know, but it was worth a shot.

"Home" is wherever they were togther.  The Ranch is indeed a metaphor for a life shared -- wthout reference to any specific place.


babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #118 on: May 12, 2008, 04:32 PM »
"Home" is wherever they were togther.  The Ranch is indeed a metaphor for a life shared -- wthout reference to any specific place.

Love what you said here, Thomas. I agree.  ^f^

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?
« Reply #119 on: May 13, 2008, 07:26 AM »
Thanks Tammy.  There is some sly truth in Lureen's comment.  I paraphrase:  "Knowing Jack, it might have been some pretend place, where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring."

Lurren got it, at least in the sense that BBM epitomized a piece of Heaven for Ennis and Jack.  A ranch and a shared life together would have also pretty much epitomized BBM itself.