Topic: When stars collide.....

[Tony]

     Recently, Jackster found a definitive interview with Annie Proulx (see: "Was Ennis Gay?-pg. 15) in which she said Brokeback Mountain was,
for our two boys, like a wormhole, where they entered one way in space-time and left into another.  Am probably messing up the physics, but
a wormhole happens, supposedly, from a black hole, where there is so much matter, everything collapses into, like, a tiny dot, from gravity
breaking down the atoms.  And that could happen if two stars collided.
   But enough with the physics--it's just a metaphor, anyway, but maybe we could do something with what she said.  Ennis and Jack were two
souls that collided outside Aguirre's trailer, and am beginning to think we could go somewhere with what Annie said.  Where were they before?
What "gravity" caused them to collide? And what were they as they came down from the mountain?
   Think back to that first meeting.  What did Jack see?  Did he see Ennis unable to meet his eyes, Ennis shuffling from one foot to another, shyly?
Did Jack see the first male that was fully virile but also non-threatening?  Did he see vulnerability?  Ennis didn't sneer him off, Ennis didn't know
WHAT to do and showed it.  Was this what Jack needed, to finally see someone who wasn't a poser or a jerk?  And how about Ennis, what did
he see?  A friendly guy, but what to do, there, as Ennis had no friends.  Move to the bar scene, where Ennis is bug-eyed over Jack's casual
take on the vagaries of life, and yet was himself lively, real, no phony, and determined...to talk.  Were they---pre-disposed and so there were
gravitational forces (oops-no more physics)?
   How did this develop on the mountain?  The little ways of each?  And how did they leave the mountain, as Annie said, into a new existence,
altered in space-time?  Been done before, in this forum?  Maybe.  But in light of Annie's own explanation, could we do better with the before
(rarely fully developed), the during, and then the after?   If anybody's willing, that first meeting might be a good start, the social interaction,
the body language, and how it all was there, in those moments, from all the years of their lives before.  Might be interesting to do it all over,
from Annie's explanation, or, maybe not.  We'd have to go into really small details, and also larger themes.  Might work, might not.  Your call.

[jackster]

Gee Tony, why don’t you try and do sumthin’ BIG? 
A big bite here, hope you can chew all that eventually comes a it. 
You got more cajones than me. 

Where were they before? The collision seems laid out by Annie in her simple, incredibly spartan introduction:

They were raised on small, poor ranches in opposite corners of the
state, Jack Twist in Lightning Flat, up on the Montana border, Ennis del Mar
from around Sage, near the Utah line, both high school drop out country boys
with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough
mannered, rough spoken, inured to the stoic life.

Raised in different locations, but she makes a point of saying “both” a few times which binds them together as a pair (of losers?) before we even get to know them. IMO the collision was the result of being on the same track at the same time headed in the same direction. There weren’t many different tracks available as options for either one.

One thing we very specifically don’t learn much about, but which I find very intriguing is the enticing way she makes evident Jack’s previous year up on Brokeback. Whut happened in ’62? Was there an “Ennis” that year? What happened to Jack that summer? Curious minds want to know. Don't know if this what your lookin' for but it's a start.

[Tony]

    Mmmm, never know what you might mean by big ones, Jackster, so will let that one, uh, dangle.
 But as to whether there was a previous "Ennis", myself, would have to say not likely.  I believe Annie said they were both inexperienced, but I
can't back that up.  Also, there's Aguirre, who was always snooping. Then, too, Jack didn't do well with other guys and so he wrote off whoever
was up there the year before, and vice-versa.
   Even so, the background of being alone with another guy, for so long, may have brought the possibilities into Jack's mind and so he might have
been prepped for Ennis, in the sense that---it probably had crossed his mind, sub-consciously.  Am keeping in mind that Jack didn't make his
move FNIT right away. In fact he was grumpy, and then...fell asleep.  Woke up, still whiskey-drunk, Ennis near to him, and then he made his
move, sleepily.  But we all see Jack differently, and many see him as somewhat bi-  before he ever met Ennis.  Either way, the year before
was a dud, as Jack would never have let a long summer fling just evaporate.  There were no other momento's in his closet, of summer loves.
   And what was Ennis doing?  So little said there, too.  One thing seems to strongly stand out for both of them---neither had any close male
friends.  Nobody to answer to.  Nobody to compare the new guy to.  Ennis a loner by choice.  Jack a loner because he was too lively for the
code of the west.
   Alas, the "big ones" are still dangling.  Dammit, Jackster, now I'm getting a little, uh, mischievous.  Better stop before I cross the line.

[LuvJackNasty]

I don't think there was an "Ennis" the summer before. We don't know for sure if Jack was up there alone or not but I would assume that there were at least two people on the mountain in '62- doesn't seem like a one person job, but what do I know. Did Aguirre snoop in the summer of '62? Maybe, maybe not. If he did then it would seem likely that he would have seen something (had something actually been going on). Or did he choose to snoop in '63 because of the 42 dead sheep the prior summer? In '64 when Jack goes back to look for work again Aguirre lets him know what he saw. In another thread it was discussed as to why Aguirre refused Jack work- was it because he saw Jack and Ennis or was he just a business man that was mad that they were slacking off on the job? I personally think it was what he saw. If it was business only then why hire Jack again at all when he was mad because of the 42 dead sheep? I think the mention of the prior summer was to show that it wasn't a matter of "convenience" but rather who was with Jack- there was something about Ennis, some connection that they both felt.

[manhattangirl]

IMO:

It's not the first time I've read in this forum, questioning Jack's motives FNIT, his summer before he met Ennis, did he have thing with some other guy?  The burden , (if you could call it that),  was always on Jack. He indeed make the move, but it was Ennis who followed through.   It's not that he didn't know what was it he was about do to Jack, he knew all too well. "Yes, I want you too."

It wasn't so much these men grew up in a vacuum, Jack young was on his own, travelling, working here and there hereding sheep or rodeo working really hard to be a "cowboy" and proud of his minor accomplishments, remember his silver buckle he showed off to Ennis.  Ennis I bet had to go to the church social with Alma while courting her. He held her hand, got down on one knee to ask her to marry him.  They function before they met, and had lives before they met.  What happened when they met.   Maybe it was the need for an emotional connection that had to be extended to the physical, there was no limits, it wasn't possible, but so very natural.
 
Jack may have been "riding more than bulls, and not rolling his own', and Ennis this was something he hadn't done before but no instruction manual needed, both went head first in that wormhole, was more of a merging than a collision neither could separate themselves from each other after that, what collided was what each saw after that night.  The dream of "a sweet life", and the nightmare of "tire irons" colliding into each other, that's the tragedy for me 

 

[Tony]

     Hi---LJN,....it's really some people's take on Jack that he was always looking for a guy, but I agree with you, about the summer before.
"..There was something about Ennis.." is where am certain you are right and, for me, and going by the film, it goes to the first meeting in those
very small things, back & forth, in body language.  Ennis, shy, puzzled at this apparition in a clunky old pick-up.  Jack, spotting, maybe, an ideal-
that true western male but without the bravado or self-certainty.  Ennis radiated self-reliance, non-aggression, leave-me alone.  The brush-off,
those first few minutes would speak opposites to Jack- brushed off again, but this time by somebody not against him for who he was. And yet also,
just the faintest, slightest, trace from Ennis, of recognition and interest.
  Maybe tying in with this, Jackster's clear point, these were two losers, headed in the same direction, and they recognized this in each other.
I don't believe we are re-working stale material, by the way, although no one has suggested that.  Am really impressed with Annie's comments,
and think we could polish up a lot and even dig some more.

OT-BabyTammy has posted one helluva video in Treasure Box, and anyone who misses it, well....misses a great one.

[Tony]

    MG, was posting while you were, and so didn't read it until now.  I may have it wrong but you seem to see the collision ON the mountain,
while I kinda see it at the first few minutes after meeting.  Will re-read your post and try to do better later.

[manhattangirl]

Yes for me the mountain was where  the "collision" occurred.   There was no better place for it, both went up there with an idea of who they were, what they wanted, but came down from that mountain different, totally different from the first day in Aguirre's office.  All Ennis wanted was to marry Alma, all Jack wanted was his own spread and men like Aguirre could kiss his butt. 

But what they found on that Mountain, was something that they spent twenty years desperately trying hold on to.   The mountain for me is a definite player it tested their resolve after FNIT, through the storms and the snow and the mixing of the sheep, they worked together, and the mountains awarded them with its isolation, and its vastness that brought an intimacy to them they never expereinced with any one else.  Brokeback made it possible for them to discover themselves and each other.  In the ss they never returned to Brokeback, I've always wondered why. 

[Tony]

    Manhattangirl, was re-reading the first of the SS and just getting ready to post, when you did, so I guess we're in sync this time.  The film
shows some level of low-grade electrical sparks flying, outside of Aguirre's trailor, so much so, that it supports a really romantic version that they
were meant for each other, predestined, almost.  Going to the SS, though, we find Annie saying they were glad to find a companion "where none
had been expected", up on the mountain, later.  Yet Annie was to use flashback, as she went on, to later sucker-punch the reader, and so she
underplayed the early, then developed it later, as something important that she WANTED us to miss (otherwise no understanding, until the very
end, it was love, not an affair).  So the SS is not incompatible with sparks flying, from the first. Still, there are going to be various takes on this,
and your seeing the development as later is easily supportable.
   Myself, am not saying love at first sight......but  I admit, I want to.  Intuition, male intuition, tells me something was up, when they first met,
and that each knew something unusual was there in the other.  Tailor-made, but not yet worn to see if the fit was right.  And here, I don't mean
sex, I mean, tailor-made for the companionship needs in each other.  Then, step by step, the clothes fit, one by one, until fully on.
  By the way, the acting by Heath and Jake, in those first scenes, has every nuance that am talking about---Ennis shifting his feet, uneasy,
Jack looking him over after being rebuffed, leaning up against his pick-up with that defiant "oh, yeah?" look, intimating- am on to you, dude,
we'll see about this one.  Sparks flying, MG---the acting was incredibly well-done and says---something's up from the start.
   We can agree to disagree.  As to why they never returned to Brokeback, am not sure, but as it was pasture land, it would not be so private.
But there could be much more to that and you never suggested what you thought it could be.

[ragtimecowboy]

When Ennis looked up and slowly took in Jack after he got out of the pickup the attraction began. Ever so faint but the magnetism was there. Two opposites in personality born out of the commonality of hard but different lives brushed against each other in the bar. Ennis subltely let him know he found him interesting, Jack outright let him know through his interest in his Mom and Dad. They moved into the channel of the black hole growing ever closer as the seeds of their love sprouted and grew. as their Coronas touched the heat of their passions slowly grew until in the first night in the tent they under went fusion, forever changing the course of their lives. At the end of the summer they neared the end of the hole and the forces of society and coventionality pulled them apart. Yet the magnetism of their true love kept them in touch.

[manhattangirl]

Tony totally understand,  there is a thread concerning non verbal communication somewhere in here, can't remember so long ago, which is just what you're discussing when they first met,

But your take on the first meeting blew me away, "Male Intuition" aggressiveness, rough, "I'll show you", whereas my "Female Intuition" led me to believe that Jack saw the shyness in Ennis, his averting of his, eyes, the shuffling of his feet, changes Jack's demeanor he wasn't going to spook this guy.  (Tony, did I miss understand please let me know),  Jack eases in to it, he figured Ennis had his own " low startle point"  In the bar with gentle prodding Jack got Ennis to actually open up to a point that he felt safe enough to speak of his parents, how he was raised, if he had the entry fee in his pocket, he too rodeo.   Jack was able to get in Ennis head, to find out who this man he was going spend a heck a lot time with, maybe this is something no one ever done in Ennis's life asked  him who he was "explain yourself to me".

As to why they never returned to Brokeback in ss, may it what you said it's pasture land would not be private, maybe it was place too much for them to bare during their trouble lives I don't know.   

[Tony]

    Manhattangirl, I just ate up that post of yours like a piece of apple pie!  "low startle point"----best description I can think of for Jack's sizing
Ennis up, and then going slow.  I believe you also saw they were VERY interested in each other and beginning to adjust, that soon.  Ennis not
brushing him off but listening, in the bar, with rapt attention.  And Jack, as you said, drawing him out, verrry carefully.  Yes, there is male intuition
and female intuition and it's not sexist to say so, but between the two of us, we may have gotten it right.
   I think in every true love, there isn't a merged couple, but a me, a you, and an us.  Them was already working on that "us".  But I can still accept
it easily if you hold to the collision happening later, because, repeating myself, they saw quickly they were tailor-made for each other, but.....
you gotta put the suit on one piece at a time to see if it really does fit.  Which would allow for sudden recognition of the signals, and also completion
later.  Wonderful post MG.
   Ragtimecowboy, you pretty much were in that same territory.  Haven't read your posts before, but it looks like you have well-developed
views and, er....you're almost as schmoozy romantic as me.  Almost. I'd go so far, sometimes, to say they were in love before they ever met.
And now that I've heard Annie saying she felt like her pen was guided by something above, makes you want to say....that was Jack.  A real
Jack, from somewhere long ago.  At any rate, glad to meet you, cowboy and I hope ragtime is near to honky-tonk because that's what our boys
got into, some hot times in the country.

[aintfoolin]

Well, my opinion is that they saw  and heard enough  to complement in each other in the scene in the bar.

There was enough aknowledged there, that they  both knew they could at least be friends. I feel their similar backgrounds and culture revealed a little  common familiarity in each other. and this allowed both to decide that this is some one whom they could deal with in an isolated work environment over a period of time. I love Tony's analogy " putting the suit on" one piece at a time". The perfect time and place, a perfect "fit".

The first phase of love  came as friendship as Jack introduced himself, using his first and last name , where Ennis "stopped at Ennis" as if he really did'nt want to say " Del Mar", maybe Ennis felt uncomfortable about it, I don't know. But Jack's "pleased to meet you Ennis Del Mar" made it seem as if Ennis's name had a "ring" to it, I believe endearing himself to Ennis more for friendly possibilities. . (or was he teasing? imo, they both had weird names, but that's another thread))  making Ennis feel proud and good about himself, not awkward. A small gesture among many, giving Ennis a feel of acceptance and belonging.  Don't think Ennis overlooked that.

 Then, no  macho "manning it up" in any competitive  or intimidating manner in the bar,  Jack shares his experiences from the summer before. Then , after working together like a well-oiled machine, Jack picks up where they left off in the {'most words spoke in a year' scene),  imo,the second phase of love. By this time, Ennis  is opening up  in a romantic sense to Jack's reaching out to him. Again, Ennis feeling pleased and good about himself, thanx to Jack. Jack has gained a trust within Ennis. Also, by this time I feel they are getting closer .Both know something is happening. Ennis knows there's something about Jack that makes him  think pride and good of himself.

 Ennis's brother and sister had did "right by him" the best they knew how, but I feel Jack knew Ennis was lacking at least basic social skills includng, but not limited to TALKING! Jack had Ennis talking  and he knew it.  This followed by certain implied actions by Ennis , I believe;  an awkard "courting" of Jack, clueing Jack in  with his own quiet way to where his head was at , concerning feelings beyond just friendship. Jack read Ennis correctly.  In a seemingly unconsious way, both were getting through to each other.

 Phase three falls somewhere within the " Water walkin Jesus scene, and Ennis's "virginal"? confession.  By this time I feel they are both wanting. Within their confusion and non-verbal communication, I  feel Ennis finds Jack attractive  physically and sexually, and v/v to the point where both have a need to express their feelings in some way. FNIT, Jack makes the first move, spontaneus for the most part,, but not carelessly undertaken by either, those  feelings are explored, SNIT  Ennis answers,,feelings are validated on both their parts.

Both felt.... whatever this is we're feeling, I like it. How can something so wrong, feel so right? .. }. as opposed to "I anit queer?....Me niether? ...Hmmm.... What a leap!  Imo, wether they collided sooner or later, when it all boiled down ,it was love right ,or wrong.  Jack "n" Ennis forever!. MO.

[Tony]

     Aintfoolin, you got me to thinking more, this time about Jack's male intuition.  You're right, they started reading each others signals, but IMO
Ennis was so off to himself, before Jack, he didn't broadcast or receive signals.  Just hung his head and did his job and accepted there wasn't much
for him, from other people.  Jack, on the other hand, had developed some kind of intuition, probably from being so outgoing and yet often brushed
off by others.  His intuition, I think, told him much about Ennis at first glance, and  was bolstered by each succeeding hour, to where he could
make Ennis feel at ease.  And there went the beginnings of Ennis' ability to broadcast and receive, and intuit.  First contact with another real
human being, maybe, given the poses and restrictions enforced by the Code of the West.
   When we get to sexual signals, I really gotta say this emphatically---I don't care HOW straight a guy thinks he is, or actually is, there is no
possible way you can reach your late teens without the issue of same-gender doings having crossed your mind, even if only from curiosity.
I think it's been over-done that they were sending sexual signals to each other very early-bull crap--guys briefly notice things about other guys.
However.  Aintfoolin.  When it got to Ennis, drunk, saying he'd never had the opportunity to do no sinnin', could not agree with you more-that
was some kind of trigger signal, maybe for both.  I remember that very well, and believe you are right--it came just before FNIT, and may have
been Ennis saying---maybe.  He might try something out.  Which would mean signals had developed, but I still say, very, very late.

[manhattangirl]

     Aintfoolin, you got me to thinking more, this time about Jack's male intuition.  You're right, they started reading each others signals, but IMO
Ennis was so off to himself, before Jack, he didn't broadcast or receive signals.  Just hung his head and did his job and accepted there wasn't much
for him, from other people.  Jack, on the other hand, had developed some kind of intuition, probably from being so outgoing and yet often brushed
off by others.  His intuition, I think, told him much about Ennis at first glance, and  was bolstered by each succeeding hour, to where he could
make Ennis feel at ease.  And there went the beginnings of Ennis' ability to broadcast and receive, and intuit.  First contact with another real
human being, maybe, given the poses and restrictions enforced by the Code of the West.
   When we get to sexual signals, I really gotta say this emphatically---I don't care HOW straight a guy thinks he is, or actually is, there is no
possible way you can reach your late teens without the issue of same-gender doings having crossed your mind, even if only from curiosity.
I think it's been over-done that they were sending sexual signals to each other very early-bull crap--guys briefly notice things about other guys.
However.  Aintfoolin.  When it got to Ennis, drunk, saying he'd never had the opportunity to do no sinnin', could not agree with you more-that
was some kind of trigger signal, maybe for both.  I remember that very well, and believe you are right--it came just before FNIT, and may have
been Ennis saying---maybe.  He might try something out.  Which would mean signals had developed, but I still say, very, very late.

I couldn't agree more, regarding signals and triggers, do you remember Jack's "hmmm" after Ennis let that piece of information out?   Message given and received. 

Tony your comment about Jack made me think about him being a rodeo rider, sensing the feel of the horse, I guess you have to learn how to read signals, to know how move, and react, predict the animals movements.  (I live in the middle of manhattan what the heck do know about rodeos), I was just thinking maybe thats what he used to sense Ennis.  I couldn't help but remember the rodeo clown, and his sensing the signals Jack was sending, and rejected it.

I don't know if this your premise, but Jack and Ennis lived lives before they met wanting, wanting connection to something, someone.   Maybe instead of their stars colliding, they were in perfect alignment.

[Tony]

    Hi-Manhattangirl.  And Happy New Year!!!  Am not so sure Ennis was looking for anyone.  Jack was looking.  But I feel like Ennis was too
beaten down by life, including poverty, which was a big issue, for Annie.  Ennis wasn't looking, but he sure was....needing.
   Am really past romantic and into the metaphysical on this love affair.  I think they were in love before they ever met and that is so very hard
to explain.  That Moody Blues song, I often come back to- "I know you're out there....somewhere.." speaks to this knowing the beloved exists...
somewhere.
   As for your living in Manhattan and what do you know about rodeos? Do what....?  Walking down the street up there is like riding a bull,
adjusting, every second, to the push and pull of the many others.  You underestimate yourself.  If you get past a few city blocks there, some
days, you've adjusted well to the movements of others, to avoid collisions, etc.  That's a rodeo of its own kind, don't you think?

[welshwitch]

From what I've read about the sheep-herding that went on in the West it seesm that it was accepted that two men were used to guard the sheep and that if they were stuck up in some remote place alone together for months the inevitable might happen. This was accepted, even condoned, but left behind when the sheep-herders came back into "normal" society. So there's a sense in which Aguirre ( had he been a real person) would not have been very surprised at the physical relationship between Ennis and Jack. I think it very likely, however, that he remembered that Jack had presided over a considerable number of losses to the flock the year before and maybe wanted to check up that he and Ennis were doing the job they were paid for.

What was not expected in real life that a physical relationship should involve emotion, or that it should be on-going.

[Tony]

    Welshwitch, your saying that the sexuality might have been no big deal, sort of late adolescent, but that the emotional entanglement was
unusual parallels what Annie did with her SS.  When I read it closely, critically, I saw that was her technique, to surprise the readers with a
sexual entanglement, then move to an affair, and then, having carefully dropped hints, and using flashback, punching the reader in the gut
at the very, very end: it was and had been, a great love.  She hid that, if you look closely.  And that had to be replicated in the film, that final
punch.  The screenwriters developed it without flashback, threw in SNIT, and let the shirts and the grieving scenes do the job.
   Anyway, have been thinking about how the collision on the mountain altered those two.  In another thread, we went into the idea of a helix,
but, clearly, there had to be adaptations, and change.  How did they change?
   IMO, Ennis was not looking for anyone, but needed deeply a person, any person, who could bring him life.  The way he described his upcoming
marriage to Alma, with so little enthusiasm, he probably already knew she saw him only in one dimension-a guy.  He never seemed to factor
love into anything, as if it were not for him, in his life.  So Jack's companionship, multi-dimensional, awakened the possibility of BEING someone
understood by another.  He clearly learned.....to talk.  He learned sexual passion (Annie has him as a virgin).  He also learned to make love.
Jackster noted his mother must have loved him, for her to have sung lullabies, but many are the boys who do not see a mother or father as
having loved them. Just treated them as a kid.  Both my parents sang lullabies to me, as a child, and it never meant anything to me until much
later.  Ennis---needed to be brought into life, all over again, as a full person.  And this change occurred, from Jack.
  How did Jack change?  Ouch.  I believe Jack didn't need a person, he needed a male.  Male ratification.  I don't think he'd ever gotten that.
And it didn't have to be sexual, but that's the kind he got.  And I think THAT altered his sexuality. In other words, am saying I don't think Jack
went up there bisexual, but became so, immediately, after Ennis became the first male to accept him and it was ratified by the sex.
  Am being very careful, in these opinions, because I know they don't leave much wiggle-room for me, but they are the product of keeping a
relatively open mind for these two years, and thinking it over.  Those are some of the ways, IMO, the collision changed them.
  Oh, well.  I may give up pondering these little details and join everybody else in the ooh, baby, baby pics threads.  Baby Tammy, move over--
make some room---am headed your way. Oh, all right. Already been there.  Just had to mess with my Spanish princess.

[jackster]

Tony: Nothin' much much to add here but to say this is a remarkable post. Am mightily impressed with your analysis of several important aspects of this (BBM) coming into being. I need to reread several times and think through slowly.
You're a champ here in my book.

[jackster]

. . . it seems that it was accepted that (if) two men were . . . . stuck up in some remote place alone together for months the inevitable might happen. This was accepted, even condoned . . . .

Yes, for sure WW your absolutely right, not only sheepherding, but numerous other occupations where women were scarce, sailors (of course), miners (49ers were notorious), etc. etc. I think Annie tries to distinguish our boys behavior from this accepted "animalistic need" behavior by "doing it" in broad daylight in the SS which is when JA spies them, this possibly takes it a step beyond just physical need. In the movie their spied behavior is visually shown with a considerable amount of affection which IMO was also not considered an "accepted" part of this isolated male-male behavior.

[manhattangirl]

       IMO, Ennis was not looking for anyone, but needed deeply a person, any person, who could bring him life.  The way he described his upcoming
marriage to Alma, with so little enthusiasm, he probably already knew she saw him only in one dimension-a guy.  He never seemed to factor
love into anything, as if it were not for him, in his life.  So Jack's companionship, multi-dimensional, awakened the possibility of BEING someone
understood by another.  He clearly learned.....to talk.  He learned sexual passion (Annie has him as a virgin).  He also learned to make love.
Jackster noted his mother must have loved him, for her to have sung lullabies, but many are the boys who do not see a mother or father as
having loved them. Just treated them as a kid.  Both my parents sang lullabies to me, as a child, and it never meant anything to me until much
later.  Ennis---needed to be brought into life, all over again, as a full person.  And this change occurred, from Jack.  

I totally love your take on Ennis, but I still have questions:

I've always believed that what Ennis saw as a child, stunted him ( if this is the right word), emotionally and sexually.  Never mind seeing a mutilated body at the age of nine, but also being told why that poor soul met such a fate, could this cause him to be conflicted or retard his own sexual development?     His virginity is also telling, he had a girlfriend, but yet he never tried to "go all the way?", and if not with her, weren't there any whorehouses, (sorry to be so crude), after all he was in his late teens, or what could it have been his Methodist upbringing? 

The FNIT shows Ennis the passion he was capable of.  That"I'm not queer" shows his primary fear of what this could mean,  but the SNIT surrendered emotionally and passionately, it all came together that night. Jack was the only one in his life gave to him all you stated, and but with a conflicted soul Ennis emerges. 

      How did Jack change?  Ouch.  I believe Jack didn't need a person, he needed a male.  Male ratification.  I don't think he'd ever gotten that.
And it didn't have to be sexual, but that's the kind he got.  And I think THAT altered his sexuality. In other words, am saying I don't think Jack
went up there bisexual, but became so, immediately, after Ennis became the first male to accept him and it was ratified by the sex.  Am being very careful, in these opinions, because I know they don't leave much wiggle-room for me, but they are the product of keeping a
relatively open mind for these two years, and thinking it over.  Those are some of the ways, IMO, the collision changed them.

Now this I'm confused.  Are you saying Jack was straight, and came down from the mountain bi,  and imbued with a new knowledge of himself.  What does this say about Jack?   Ennis's influence on him made him totally change who he really was?   Then what of his many trips to Mexico, his affair with Randall, (forget about the "Gay Bomb", a night with Ennis will do), did he loose his mind?   

Jack sought respect.  Something he never got from his father, Aguirre, LD, even Lureen.  But Ennis respected him and was equal to him.   I thought this was the basic thing that drew Jack to Ennis he validated him. 
   
Tony please help me out on this one. You totally flip this on me, and it's making me nuts. (I love it). 

Happy New Year 

[Tony]

    Jackster, thanks for the kind words.  Welshwitch triggered my memory of taking up the SS, once again, but only for studying technique.
And, just as WW said that the emotional develpment was what was unusual, so too, that was what Annie clobbered us with at the end.
It's very hard for us to go back to the first reading of the SS, or the first viewing of the film, but the raw power of both was to delay until the end
the full, final understanding it wasn't a sexual affair, but a love story for the ages.  Annie did it casually, and used early hints and later flashbacks.
The film used---the last meeting together, the shirts, and the closing scene.  It would be really neat to do a study of the film, and how Ang Lee
used slow-fast, slow-fast, color tones, gradual introduction of music, and serenity vs. violent scenes, to keep the viewer unstable and set up
for a similar knock-down.  He, and the screenwriters matched Annie, but towards the same goal---a knock-down punch at the end.
    Manhattangirl, as much as we've gone into the sexuality of our two heroes, there's always more to notice.  You're right-there is something
difficult about Ennis never using a whorehouse and, by his own words, never having had any opportunity.  Maybe he wasn't sexual until Jack.
In any way.  Insecure, unwanted.  MG, a male has to feel aggressive to, er, get it up, and feel alive and wanted.  And the Ennis we saw outside
Aguirre's trailer was a castaway.  Yet he had some seething passionate needs for FNIT to erupt.  Maybe it was Jack that made him feel like
he was worth something.  There's more there and need to think on it instead of just posting what comes to mind.
  As for Jack---most want him to be gay or bisexual, and I don't see that and base that on my male friends as we grew up.  He was very alive,
sensual, and ....willing, for just about anything (Lureen proved that, didn't she?).  But the important word, MG, is--de-sensitization.  There
are many troubles to that first time (and, yes, even male-female), but each succeeding event de-sensitizes a male to any shock or guilt
from male/male.  In the sexual theory I follow (see my first thread, if you have the time; it's real short, on pg. 2 of this area), a guy can have
male/male sex often (say, in prison) and remain straight, but de-sensitized to any taboo.  But, in Jack's case, I think he caught that football
and ran with it, become fully bi-sexual.  He would be the Category 4 male, described in that thread.  Sorry, MG, but there's more to guys
and we all---cover it up.  What became extremely unusual, as welshwitch noted......was the emotional rather than the sexual development.
They.....passed doggy-dog sex, and went into....the love story that has us here on this forum.  We wouldn't be here...if it was just sex.
Welshwitch has it right.  And that's where Annie got us good.

[tpe]

I somehow feel that Ennis intrigued Jack from the very beginning -- perhaps even considered Ennis as a sort of challenge.  It would seem that Jack was definitely attracted to Ennis, and there are a number of indications in the first scene that lead us to believe that Ennis was also curious about Jack, or perhaps even vaguely attracted to him.

Did Jack or Ennis knew that it was fate?  I don't know.  Somehow, I feel that the first meeting was more a time of exploration and mutual probing of possibilities, rather than any star-struck recognition that "He is the one..."

I think Jack was by nature more sociable and gregarious with strangers, and a lot of the friendliness in the beginning could very well just be good-natured love of companionship on his part.  Still, I don't doubt that there was some form of attraction from the start.  The looks tell all...

[manhattangirl]

   
   Manhattangirl,  we are unable, as Americans, to get past the sex.  I think we are driving the Europeans batty.   We are not going to get
anywhere on this thread, or any other, unless we acknowledge the sexuality as important and worthy of exploring, but get past that to how
two guys fell in love.  Because there are tons of gay guys cheerfully having sex and without love.  And men and women at singles bars.  We
have to weave in and out between the two, and see how this collision was more than sex, and more than sexual predisposition.
  Dammit, my battiest posts are in the wee hours of the morning, when slightly ill, and then I gotta regret it later.  Will take 2 aspirins and
call myself later in the morning.  But we gotta get there---it wasn't sex---it was a collision of emotional needs, and we Americans are way
behind Europeans in registering that.

Tony,

First off, please feel better.  Second, when I hear the statement:" As Americans we have get past this or that" the eyes in my head start to roll back.  Yes,  it was an emotional collision that it was so deeply profound that it released and altered both men.   But is was the sliding scale of the sexual self, that smacked us upside our head. 

You pointed out the recreational aspect of sex, but in this story the sex was not only the communication of the emotions one had towards the other, but was also a prison, because each felt imprisoned by their need for each other,  Brokeback the two edged sword.  This love lasted for  twenty years,  but because of a world they feared that would destroy both of them, and in spite of this they still love, they still needed each, and they couldn't stay away.  I see both the emotional and the sexual as equal components, one fueled the other.    These men ran on emotions and expressed it physically.  If it was different there would be long letters of feelings hidden lovingly away for twenty years, like many great loves which are expressed in the written word and not be the physical, instead we have  are only postcards confirming the next meeting, this shows the overwhelming need to  actually be together.    

In the final confrontation this was the tug-o-war between Jack and Ennis, the confirmation of the emotions, and the need for the physical.  

Just my thought.  

[Tony]

    Hi, Manhattangirl---you caught me there with that quote.  Have had an up and down fever, and when I wrote that post, the fever was in play,
and I deleted it later because I felt it didn't meet the standards of the moderators.
    Am trying to remember the key words of your post-they ran on emotions and expressed them physically, but I may have only the sense of that
right.  If so, I do greatly agree.  But Ennis carried his love within him and, IMO, it had to be that his emotions were greater than the physical/sexual
need to a significant degree, no matter how often he "wrung it out" as Annie said.  Jack wasn't his only love.  I do believe he loved his family,
but felt unloved, back, and I think he really did love Alma, but she could never see him as a human being, only as a male, a husband, and when
that broke down even there, he felt unneeded, again, and ready for the divorce.  I think he had a passing love for Cassie, the way he smiled
gently when he spoke of her, and, there, again, he noted well, when he saw her with someone else.  Nobody wanted him for just being-himself,
except Jack.  Nobody perservered, except Jack.  Maybe, with Ennis, so often unneeded, it would take decades for him to believe completely.
   An imbalance, with Ennis, then.  He didn't HAVE to have the physical co-equally with the emotional.  Not so, Jack. Jack, as a sensual person,
needed regular sex and regular, uh, huggy-wugs, to convey the emotional.  He was easy prey for Lureen (and she was a predator) and he responded
with the hopes--it might just work.
   Know what?  They  DID fall in love on Brokeback, and would have carried that as a sacred memory all their lives.  But if Alma and Lureen had
gone past seeing them as guys, husbands, into seeing them as people--those marriages might have worked.  It took 4 years!!!!! 4 years, for
both of these men to figure out, their wives were not full companions, and the love from their wives was low-voltage, easily transferable to
someone else.  That left the sacred love of Brokeback, to return to, for their EMOTIONAL needs (they coulda gotten male sex somewhere else).
Yeah, they got right back into sex. Yeah, you're right, the emotions were conveyed physically.  But it was emotional hunger that got them back
in touch.  No one else really loved them.  If it was hunger for male sex, trust me, MG, they woulda found that somewhere in those 4 years, apart.
No one else really had reached into their very soul as the other had done on BBM.  A screw, you can get anywhere. Even in Wyoming or Texas.
When the marriages proved lesser loves, it was emotion that returned them to each others arms.

[manhattangirl]

Tony-

Thank you, I've read and re-read your post, Loved it.  I understand now what you're saying.  I have to now re-read the story and view the film through your eyes.  

Now I'm wiping tears from my eyes and not rolling them, how you do that?

[Tony]

    Manhattangirl, I think we, all of us, find more from this film together, than we ever did, separately.  Maybe Ayashae is right, in her views
about synchronicity.  We were all supposed to meet, for whatever purpose.  Maybe to learn that there are others like ourselves. Lovers.
   Anyway, have always thought I understood Ennis, through and through, and now I know I have not looked Jack over that closely. that is,
not enough to be so confident as I have been about Ennis.  When I can do that, will have better posts here.  We could all use some more
insights on Jack.  Annie starts and ends with Ennis.  Jack is co-equal and yet I feel I need to look deeper there and start by assuming nothing.
Will try to do that.  You were strong on Jack.  I need to catch up.

[Tony]

    Well, have done some thinking, on Jack, and for what it's worth....here goes.
         We are used to seeing Jack as co-equal with Ennis and Brokies even divide up on which one interests them more.  But, in some respects,
they are not co-equal.  It can easily be argued that BBM is primarily about Ennis and Jack is his....counterfoil.  Annie starts and ends with Ennis.
And, in the interview with her that Jackster came across and which is the start of this thread, she said Heath had Ennis down so well, he knew
Ennis better than she did.  She also said Jake pretty much took her outlines and created the Jack we see in the film.  Whether she's admitting
it or not, then, SHE knew Ennis through and through, but left Jack less developed.  And the Oscar nominations reflected this definition of Jack
as a counterfoil by putting Heath up for best actor, and, if I have this right, Jake up for best supporting actor.
    So we see them as co-equal, but it very much looks the case that the origins of BBM are----Ennis. Annie does almost admit-Jack was not
her focus.  It was left, then, to the screenplay writers to develop him more. And then, according to Annie, to Jake to really create him.
This is interesting, because critics of Jake say that he plays himself in every movie, no particular difference.  And now we know this is not true-
Jake brings himself to each movie-I think a much lighter criticism there might fly, but he then goes much further, depending on the role.  My
point in this is that Jake was underestimated in this film---it could be said, no, it WAS said, by Annie, Jake created at least half of the Jack Twist
we see.  Heath was brilliant, of course, and creative, but he went INTO the role.  Jake CREATED much of what we know as Jack.
   And that is important.  Jake fleshed out the sensuality, the alternating quiet sadness and friskiness---the one who COULD break down Ennis.
So this leads where?  Jake developed further the sensuality that leaves us knowing Jack needed sexual reassurance that his emotional commitment
was returned.  Doesn't sound like much, but Heath's tilting Ennis colder, and Jake tilting Jake warmer, makes the tragic ending more inevitable.
  By the way, am not one that believes Jack's marriage to Lureen broke down completely.  Much later, Jack says it could be done over the
telephone, suggesting not much sex.  But given her earlier ways, am betting she went through at least 10 years of keeping the sexuality going
and that may have helped to keep Jack from going batty over the lack of regular intercourse with Ennis.  But as she grew older and less interested,
Jack's need for more sexual reassurance from Ennis would have grown.  Might help us understand why Jack tolerated the early years and then
became more frustrated.  He loved only Ennis but, deprived of sex with his wife, more and more, he would then need more reassurance from
Ennis, and it wasn't happening.
  Anyway-will stand my ground on that one point. Jake Gyllenhaal created...Jack Twist.  Annie says he took the character and made it his own
version and that it was remarkably good.  But she was therefore admitting, she knew Ennis to a T,...she wasn't sure of Jack.  We might could
use this in developing the understanding of Jack better.

[tpe]

  Anyway-will stand my ground on that one point. Jake Gyllenhaal created...Jack Twist.  Annie says he took the character and made it his own
version and that it was remarkably good.  But she was therefore admitting, she knew Ennis to a T,...she wasn't sure of Jack.  We might could
use this in developing the understanding of Jack better.

I feel the same way.  I think she never really considered Jack in the same depth she gave Ennis, except for that remarkable passage of the Dozy Embrace.  Part of Gyllenhaal's achievement is to make Ennis and Jack viable star-crossed lovers, by putting flesh to Jack in a way that resonated so beautifully with Proulx's passage about the Dozy Embrace.

[manhattangirl]

What strikes me about AP description of Jack, was how almost homely she makes him.  sorta fair, slightly bucked tooth, and kind of makes fun of him, because of it.  Jack was talkative, and lively, he spoke of sheep being struck by lightening,  the feather in his hat, and how he got it, showed with pride his rodeo buckle,  this to Ennis must have been non threatening.  You could have imagine him being Ennis's "best buds ",   Ennis being the serious of the duo, and Jack almost the comic relief.   And you wonder how these two ordinary looking guys fall in love, and hold on to a relationship that lasted twenty years.  I guess that's the beauty of AP story,  it was  an extraordinary love.

What Tony said make perfect sense, It up to us to develop that understanding of Jack, and we are not going to agree.  But we can agree to disagree.  Tony,  like your take on Jack's marriage, I think the blonder Lureen hair got and the more jewelry she wore was almost a sign for me, a fight for her own sexuality,  confirming her feminine self, her womanhood, because how many nights was she alone, and wondering why?  Because there must have been something lacking in that marriage, the intimate connection, maybe the lack of intimacy itself, but there was something going on there.   Jack's only connection was to Ennis.   Sexually he did have Mexico and his  affair with Randall, really what was left for her.    This disconnect could have been detected by her but not understood, so she had her adding machine, she was not a contented woman. 

Just my take.