Topic: When Jack got mad...

[babytammy7]

I read a post long time ago in some thread I can't remember about this. I think that was Thomas who wrote that, I don't know well.....

But brokies there were saying that 2 full years passed between Ennis finding the shirts and the scene with Alma Jr. The person who wrote it said that because in the OS we can see that, because Diana and Larry wrote a date for every scene, and the Junior scene had a date two years after the visit to LF. They, teh brokies, were saying too that in the SS the Alma scene happened only one year later after LF.

We have to remember that in the SS when Ennis and Jack are in their last meeting Ennis said to Jack that Alma Junior was 17, and in the trailer scene with Ennis, Alma was 19, like Ennis said.

The brokie who wrote the post also explained the original OS time line. The last meeting was in fall, so when Ennis canceled August Jack went ballistic because they had to wait a WHOLE year to meet again!!!! Because of that Jack was so mad and he said that see Ennis was as difficult as see the Pope. Jack died in spring, and Ennis went to LF in earlier fall too, almost one year after their last meeting. This is why some brokies said that between LF and the Alma scene there was only a year: Last meeting Alma 17, Ennis found the shirts Alma 18 and trailer scene Alma 19. But the brokie said that the OS was clear about dates, and Diana and Larry wrote that it was two years and that was so more heartbreaking because two years later Ennis kept crying for Jack and kept maintaining the shirts...  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

Well, I hope it makes sense. I need someone with the OS here. THOMAS WHERE ARE YOU?
Maybe some moderator could give you the link to the thread Athena. 

[tpe]

I read a post long time ago in some thread I can't remember about this. I think that was Thomas who wrote that, I don't know well.....

But brokies there were saying that 2 full years passed between Ennis finding the shirts and the scene with Alma Jr. The person who wrote it said that because in the OS we can see that, because Diana and Larry wrote a date for every scene, and the Junior scene had a date two years after the visit to LF. They, teh brokies, were saying too that in the SS the Alma scene happened only one year later after LF.

We have to remember that in the SS when Ennis and Jack are in their last meeting Ennis said to Jack that Alma Junior was 17, and in the trailer scene with Ennis, Alma was 19, like Ennis said.

The brokie who wrote the post also explained the original OS time line. The last meeting was in fall, so when Ennis canceled August Jack went ballistic because they had to wait a WHOLE year to meet again!!!! Because of that Jack was so mad and he said that see Ennis was as difficult as see the Pope. Jack died in spring, and Ennis went to LF in earlier fall too, almost one year after their last meeting. This is why some brokies said that between LF and the Alma scene there was only a year: Last meeting Alma 17, Ennis found the shirts Alma 18 and trailer scene Alma 19. But the brokie said that the OS was clear about dates, and Diana and Larry wrote that it was two years and that was so more heartbreaking because two years later Ennis kept crying for Jack and kept maintaining the shirts...  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

Well, I hope it makes sense. I need someone with the OS here. THOMAS WHERE ARE YOU?
Maybe some moderator could give you the link to the thread Athena. 

Hello Tammy.  Soorry, but I seemed to have missed this, for some odd reason!

Yes, there is a thread about the timeline as given in the screenplay.  And yes, the screenplay implies that Ennis was asking Jack to agree to not seeing each other for about a full year!  I said that this would indicate why Jack was so angry in that final confrontation.

I will post a reference to that old thread here, in relation to Jack getting angry...

[tpe]

Here is the thread that Tammy was referring to:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=968.msg9060#msg9060

[atalley]

    I'm more of a "reader" than a poster...I've got to tell you guys that this has got to be one of the best threads I've read!  Everyone has such great comments.  I am of the thought that Jack knew he couldn't "quit" Ennis even if he tried.  Also, once Ennis broke down at the mere mention of it, Jack had to be there to console him.  This makes me so sad. :\'( :\'(  BUT, I can't quit it (BBM)...no matter how I try.

[tpe]

Thanks atalley.  I do agree that when Ennis broke down, Jack was unable to maintain his angry stance. He was visibly moved.  It does tell us that his anger is not a manifestation of a cooling off of his love for Ennis.  On the contrary, the anger showed that Jack cared very much about it, and had though (up until Ennis's breakdown) that Ennis really didn't care.

[Matt Nasty]

Thanks atalley.  I do agree that when Ennis broke down, Jack was unable to maintain his angry stance. He was visibly moved.  It does tell us that his anger is not a manifestation of a cooling off of his love for Ennis.  On the contrary, the anger showed that Jack cared very much about it, and had though (up until Ennis's breakdown) that Ennis really didn't care.

i fully agree with this

[myprivatejack]

Thanks atalley.  I do agree that when Ennis broke down, Jack was unable to maintain his angry stance. He was visibly moved.  It does tell us that his anger is not a manifestation of a cooling off of his love for Ennis.  On the contrary, the anger showed that Jack cared very much about it, and had though (up until Ennis's breakdown) that Ennis really didn't care.

Yes,it was like an explosion of rage for all the things that they must have told each other long time ago; but at the same time,it was a desperate shout for not letting their love died down.Of course,put both in the love and lack of love balance,it's easy to know what weighted more...

[babytammy7]

Thanks atalley.  I do agree that when Ennis broke down, Jack was unable to maintain his angry stance. He was visibly moved.  It does tell us that his anger is not a manifestation of a cooling off of his love for Ennis.  On the contrary, the anger showed that Jack cared very much about it, and had though (up until Ennis's breakdown) that Ennis really didn't care.

Beautiful Thomas!!! I agree. 

[aintfoolin]

 I agree, beautifully put.

When Jack found how deeply his words affected Ennis , he knew Ennis cared and needed him. His tears spoke louder than words, but I also feel Jack was right to say those words. I think Ennis needed to hear them, and Jack needed to say them. They both had a dog in this fight.

[tpe]

When Jack found how deeply his words affected Ennis , he knew Ennis cared and needed him. His tears spoke louder than words, but I also feel Jack was right to say those words. I think Ennis needed to hear them, and Jack needed to say them. They both had a dog in this fight.

I think it was good that he was able to say those words, especially before his end.  Even though it was too late to save the dream, he went off knowing that the love was intact on both sides.

[myprivatejack]

I think it was good that he was able to say those words, especially before his end.  Even though it was too late to save the dream, he went off knowing that the love was intact on both sides.

It was good that he was able to say those words,the same than it was good to Ennis to hear them...In any case,they were like I said in my former post: a desperate shout for knowing that their love was there,in spite of all the things they had inside and that must explode sooner or later.And for trying to avoid it to die down,no matter the effect these words had in them-or precisely for this same reason...-.

[Scott6373]

It may have been good for Jack to say those words, but it was obvious that he knew the futility involved even as he spoke them.  He cared about Ennis' reaction because you don't stop caring or loving just because you don't get what you want.  Jack did not want to give up his dreams, he did not want to devalue the love he felt for Ennis by denying that is what it was.  That is a very hard road to travel on my friends:  To love someone despite the fact that you know in the deepest part of your heart that what you desire most will never be yours.  That's unconditional love!  Not without expectations...we are all prone to those, but Jack loved Ennis in a way that he could never nor would ever deny.  His anger was not at Ennis...it was at the imposibility of what love sometimes is.  Yet, Jack loved intil he drew his last breath.

[babytammy7]

It may have been good for Jack to say those words, but it was obvious that he knew the futility involved even as he spoke them.  He cared about Ennis' reaction because you don't stop caring or loving just because you don't get what you want.  Jack did not want to give up his dreams, he did not want to devalue the love he felt for Ennis by denying that is what it was.  That is a very hard road to travel on my friends:  To love someone despite the fact that you know in the deepest part of your heart that what you desire most will never be yours.  That's unconditional love!  Not without expectations...we are all prone to those, but Jack loved Ennis in a way that he could never nor would ever deny.  His anger was not at Ennis...it was at the impossibility of what love sometimes is.  Yet, Jack loved until he drew his last breath.

OMG what a way to say it!!! Beautiful indeed!! I have to agree. I've never thought that Jack gave up his dreams. On the contrary, I've always said that Jack was a fighter. And yes, he loved till the end.

But I'm confusing with his words in the confrontation scene. He said "we could a had a good life together", you know, in past tense. He was not saying "we can, we still can", so maybe he really understood that there was not going to be any opportunity to live together? Not there, not ever?  I'm not saying he was going to quit Ennis, I don't believe in that. But maybe he really knew that his dream with Ennis was not possible at that point, 39 years old, so f***ing tired of fighting. I think he never gave up his dreams about a better life, but maybe he lost all his hopes with Ennis. I don't know. I'm confused here. I said one that Jack's dream was not a sweet life with Ennis, but his dream was Ennis. I mean, he wanted to live in a ranch with Ennis; without Ennis living in a ranch and the rest of his dream made no sense to him. If Ennis was not in it, he didn't want that sweet life, because of that he never quit Lureen to start a new life by his own. He only wanted to live with Ennis, the idea of the ranch was only possible if Ennis was there. So if I say that Jack never quit dreaming about that sweet life but he understood that it couldn't be with Ennis.......that made NO sense because I just said that Ennis was Jack's dream!!   

Uh, OT, rambling a lot. Do you understand something of what I'm trying to say? I don't know how to say well in English what I have in my mind about this. Sorry. 

[tpe]

Beautiful posts, MPJ and Scott.

To answer Tammy's question, I think (first of all) that Jack refrs to all the intervening years when they could have been living together.  He does not explicitly say that they can't do it for the future, but the years past are lost years.

But secondly, as Scott has pointed out, the past tense speaks of Jack understanding the futility of it all.  He still and always will love Ennis, but he sees that part of that love to live it in spite of dashed hopes.  I do believe that when he says these words, he has given up on a life together.  Not because he will it, but because he understands that for Ennis, it was not to be.

[Scott6373]

He still and always will love Ennis, but he sees that part of that love to live it in spite of dashed hopes.  I do believe that when he says these words, he has given up on a life together.  Not because he will it, but because he understands that for Ennis, it was not to be.

We've all been in love (I think  ), and many of us with people who did not or could not love us back the way we envisioned.  Having just gone through this, and been driving down the road crying much like Jack did, there will always be a certain amount of anger...at the person, at the situation, at nearly everything in your life, especially if your entire life was based on lies and deception...and let's face it, both of these men lived lives of lies and deception; to others but more importantly to themselves.  Let's not also forget that while that is true for them, we have to take into account the era and area they lived these lives.  They had neither the education nor emotional enlightenment that we enjoy today.  That fact, for me, makes this an even more tragic story.  In the end, both Jack and Ennis, like you and I, have to own the consequence for our actions without regard to circumstances that may have prompted us to make choices that we later regret.

[myprivatejack]

Beautiful posts, MPJ and Scott.

To answer Tammy's question, I think (first of all) that Jack refrs to all the intervening years when they could have been living together.  He does not explicitly say that they can't do it for the future, but the years past are lost years.

But secondly, as Scott has pointed out, the past tense speaks of Jack understanding the futility of it all.  He still and always will love Ennis, but he sees that part of that love to live it in spite of dashed hopes.  I do believe that when he says these words, he has given up on a life together.  Not because he will it, but because he understands that for Ennis, it was not to be.

Jack knew perfectly well at that point-and he knew it from,IMO,the scene near the river,that was the beginning of the end...-that his dreams about that "sweet life together" have vanished in the air of denials and dissapointments.He could only live of what could have been and never was,and this wasn't in damage of what he felt for Ennis.But he knew that the reality against he crashed again and again was stronger than his hopes,and that what he only could do is speaking in past about the years that they had denied to themselves.And trying to maintain their love's flame as living as the circumstances allowed them.

We've all been in love (I think  ), and many of us with people who did not or could not love us back the way we envisioned.  Having just gone through this, and been driving down the road crying much like Jack did, there will always be a certain amount of anger...at the person, at the situation, at nearly everything in your life, especially if your entire life was based on lies and deception...and let's face it, both of these men lived lives of lies and deception; to others but more importantly to themselves. Let's not also forget that while that is true for them, we have to take into account the era and area they lived these lives.  They had neither the education nor emotional enlightenment that we enjoy today.  That fact, for me, makes this an even more tragic story.  In the end, both Jack and Ennis, like you and I, have to own the consequence for our actions without regard to circumstances that may have prompted us to make choices that we later regret.

Beautiful post,Scott,beautiful and painfully real...Yes,many of us know what is,and what means,to be in love with someone,as in this case,like Ennis; always denying what they also feel but don't want recognise they do,always loving us not in the way we'd like and need...Of course,this situation always led us to a state of anger,sometimes hidden during long time,sometimes avoided,but that almost always explodes.As in their case,because as you say very well,both of these men lived lives of lies and deception; to others but more importantly to themselves. What's is the worst path we can take in our lives route.

[aintfoolin]

OMG what a way to say it!!! Beautiful indeed!! I have to agree. I've never thought that Jack gave up his dreams. On the contrary, I've always said that Jack was a fighter. And yes, he loved till the end.

But I'm confusing with his words in the confrontation scene. He said "we could a had a good life together", you know, in past tense. He was not saying "we can, we still can", so maybe he really understood that there was not going to be any opportunity to live together? Not there, not ever?  I'm not saying he was going to quit Ennis, I don't believe in that. But maybe he really knew that his dream with Ennis was not possible at that point, 39 years old, so f***ing tired of fighting. I think he never gave up his dreams about a better life, but maybe he lost all his hopes with Ennis. I don't know. I'm confused here. I said one that Jack's dream was not a sweet life with Ennis, but his dream was Ennis. I mean, he wanted to live in a ranch with Ennis; without Ennis living in a ranch and the rest of his dream made no sense to him. If Ennis was not in it, he didn't want that sweet life, because of that he never quit Lureen to start a new life by his own. He only wanted to live with Ennis, the idea of the ranch was only possible if Ennis was there. So if I say that Jack never quit dreaming about that sweet life but he understood that it couldn't be with Ennis.......that made NO sense because I just said that Ennis was Jack's dream!!   

Uh, OT, rambling a lot. Do you understand something of what I'm trying to say? I don't know how to say well in English what I have in my mind about this. Sorry. 

Yes  BT, he was speaking in a past tense. I think he had resigned  himself to the fact that he and Ennis were'nt going to ranch up together after all those yrs. When Ennis asks him if he had a better idea. "I did once" he says. Long ago when  so much future was ahead of them and they were younger,. I feel he had thought about it.  His dream was to  live with Ennis working a ranch together. He hoped for so long that Ennis would change his mind , but he  never stopped loving him. I think Ennis asking him that question reminded him just how long he'd been waiting. How vulnerable he'd became at times when Ennis was not there. All he was willing to sacrifice for him.  On top of all his hurt, Ennis was making Mexico sound like something only , "boys like you"  did this sort of thing.  Imo, a hit below the belt, otherwise known in my neck of the woods as,...a cheap shot. and Jack got  pissed off , that still  after all this time, and all he  had gone through, Ennis was making him feel cheap and weak, but in the process, seperating himself from what they had shared for 20 yrs.  Still in denial and using Jack's vulnerabilities against him?  He admits it, essentially "outing" himself in the process admitting he's gay. ( not because he went to Mexico, but that he was  attracted to other  men.)That's why he had to say those angry words to Ennis, His accusatory words, a stinging indictment of Ennis's failure to him  in the relationship,  Long ago, he had a  life long dream wrapped up in this man, but had to let go..  Felt Ennis was questioning his sincerity. This was deep, no kid's game.

 He did have expectations and and unconditional love, but he was human, with human emotion and frailty. I think he felt let down,,frustrated and angry at letting go. At that point no excuse was good enough, no words were too harsh, Yrs and yrs of pent up heartbreak finally spilled over. He was very passionate in his love so he fought passionatly to keep it. So natural for him to get mad when so much of himself was invested in Ennis. Ennis's fear to love outwardly gave him a sense of Ennis not caring enough and that love just was'nt enough.
 Quite the opposite as we see when Ennis breaks down as we saw him do before in Signal at the thought of loosing Jack, especially now in the confrontation where he now knows how Jack feels about the whole situation.

His tears mean so much, + his "why don't you just let me be" . I used to think Ennis was just blaming Jack for loving him and making him love him back, maybe he does to a degree, but now I feel he was saying that he does care, but he cannot give what he does'nt have in him to give. Sill does'nt know how to accept true, unconditional love. His fear is too great, yet, he was so fragile, scared of loosing Jack forever. It's "cause a you, I'm nuthin, nowhere" means to me  Ennis feels his sacrifices are also profound. He can give Jack everything he needs and wants except that one thing Jack wants the most and he feels to  himself that to Jack, it's not enough.  Jack was trying to quit and that meant loosing him. It's not that Ennis won't live with Jack, it's that he can't for reasons of a conflict within, even he cannnot understand, yet he  knows he loves him just as much.
We'll never know how this confrontation effected them at Pine Creek  or what direction it would have taken them, but the  possibilties or impossibilities are only left to the imagination.  I think I'm rambling, but oh well,,,2 cents more.

[babytammy7]

Rambling? OMG, AF, that's beautiful!! I totally agree. I think you read my mind sometimes!!! I don't quote your words because I'd quote the whole post!!

Thanks for your rambling!! 

[aintfoolin]

 BT, glad you enjoy my posts and I love yours too. So happy we can share this film and talk to each other about it. Your so sweet. Thank you.

[babytammy7]

Thank you, AF!!!  You have a way to say things really wise and precious. I admire you a lot!! 

[tpe]

In a way, I think of the Final Confrontation as a liberating experience for Jack, even though it is perhaps a liberation that he did not seek.  This is the meaning of the final phrase "Let be, let be", IMO.  The anger of so many years had now been released, and place of the anger is a sad form of understanding and acceptance.

Lovers naturally understand this.  This is the way of compromise, more often than not.  As in many lovers quarrels, anger does not (usually) reconcile the opposing forces.  But it is through weathering through the storms that makes or beaks a relationship, even if differences and dreams go unresolved forever.

[Matt Nasty]

In a way, I think of the Final Confrontation as a liberating experience for Jack, even though it is perhaps a liberation that he did not seek.  This is the meaning of the final phrase "Let be, let be", IMO.  The anger of so many years had now been released, and place of the anger is a sad form of understanding and acceptance.

Lovers naturally understand this.  This is the way of compromise, more often than not.  As in many lovers quarrels, anger does not (usually) reconcile the opposing forces.  But it is through weathering through the storms that makes or beaks a relationship, even if differences and dreams go unresolved forever.

hmm i agree for problems to be solved you first have to talk about them even if it makes people angry.

[Scott6373]

That's a bitter medicine however.  Jack knew, instinctively, that by speaking his heart to Ennis at Cross Creek, he was making a choice.  We all choose the roads we go down, they do not choose us.  As much as we would have liked to see these men share the life that Jack dreamed of (and it was Jack's dream, not Ennis'), the road they travelled together for twenty-odd years was one that was not paved, and would end abruptly and without warning.  Jack knew he was choosing a different road than Ennis.  After the choice, comes the anger, the grieving and eventually the peace.

[tpe]

...After the choice, comes the anger, the grieving and eventually the peace.

Beautifully put!