Topic: Scene cut short in movie.

[rod1960]

I think the best scene in the book was short changed in the movie.  The motel scene where they just had sex and were lying tangled up in each others arms sharing a cigarette. This scene is Ennis at his most exposed. He is sort of thinking out loud to Jack. He tells Jack that he vomited on the roadside after leaving him and he didn't realize it till later but he now knows he should have never left Jack. He also tells him he has been thinking the past  four years he might be ...... (queer) doesn't say it  but just lets it hang in the air .Sex isn't as good with anyone else  He also tells Jack he has masterbated a "hunderd" times thinking of him.  There are many more points in this scene that were moved to other points in the movie. This scene could have been so much more.

[Cowboy Cody]

I agree that should have been included because it was the pretext for Jack's continued returns to Riverton, esp. upon hearing of the divorce. And therefore makes the final scene between the two so much more.  :'( :'( :'(

[Toadily]

I think the best scene in the book was short changed in the movie.  The motel scene where they just had sex and were lying tangled up in each others arms sharing a cigarette. This scene is Ennis at his most exposed. He is sort of thinking out loud to Jack. He tells Jack that he vomited on the roadside after leaving him and he didn't realize it till later but he now knows he should have never left Jack. He also tells him he has been thinking the past  four years he might be ...... (queer) doesn't say it  but just lets it hang in the air .Sex isn't as good with anyone else  He also tells Jack he has masterbated a "hunderd" times thinking of him.  There are many more points in this scene that were moved to other points in the movie. This scene could have been so much more.

I read they chose to move part of that to the outdoors (when they do their first 'fishing trip") and Annie Proulx wasn't sure that was wise either but then saw it and realized it worked, maybe Ang didn't want a tight shot so long....I defer to his genius myself!

[Cowboy Cody]

I wouldn't question his genius, but I think Jack and Ennis in bed having a heartfelt...well..here I go again. :'(

[rane99]

Well, I really would have like to have heard Ennnis say, 'Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights."

 

[Toadily]

Well, I really would have like to have heard Ennnis say, 'Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights."

 

I know what you are saying, but we kind of know that when we see Ennis's face when Jack arrives.  In performance you need to show things more than say them sometimes, so a book is different than a movie that way.

[rikcub]

I think the best scene in the book was short changed in the movie.  The motel scene where they just had sex and were lying tangled up in each others arms sharing a cigarette. This scene is Ennis at his most exposed. He is sort of thinking out loud to Jack. He tells Jack that he vomited on the roadside after leaving him and he didn't realize it till later but he now knows he should have never left Jack. He also tells him he has been thinking the past  four years he might be ...... (queer) doesn't say it  but just lets it hang in the air .Sex isn't as good with anyone else  He also tells Jack he has masterbated a "hunderd" times thinking of him.  There are many more points in this scene that were moved to other points in the movie. This scene could have been so much more.

I am reading the short story to screenplay book...apparently Annie Proulx felt very strongly about keeping this scene intact from her short story but lost (in the movie version) to the vision of Ang Lee.  Also, she seems to see the wisdom and is happy with the result.

[rod1960]

Truthfully, I am baffled by Annie's comments about the movie. they don't make sense to me.  She now visualizes Heath Ledger as Ennis in her own mind.

Ennis, high-arched nose and narrow face, was scruffy and a little cave-chested, balanced a small torso on long, caliper legs, and possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting. His reflexes were uncommonly quick, and he was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley’s saddle catalogue.  Heath Ledger ?


Then  she jumps to criticize Jake as Jack.  She sees him as more "Jumpier, homely".  We are supposed to believe Hollywood hunk Heath Ledger could pull off a love story playing against some person who is "homely".  Jack was buck-toothed.

In the story, neither are good looking men.

[rane99]

Truthfully, I am baffled by Annie's comments about the movie. they don't make sense to me.  She now visualizes Heath Ledger as Ennis in her own mind.

Ennis, high-arched nose and narrow face, was scruffy and a little cave-chested, balanced a small torso on long, caliper legs, and possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting. His reflexes were uncommonly quick, and he was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley’s saddle catalogue.  Heath Ledger ?


Then  she jumps to criticize Jake as Jack.  She sees him as more "Jumpier, homely".  We are supposed to believe Hollywood hunk Heath Ledger could pull off a love story playing against some person who is "homely".  Jack was buck-toothed.

In the story, neither are good looking men.

In the book they didn't seem hideous either.  Personally I don't think Heath is very attractive--I know I am probably in the minority on this one--- and they didn't really 'pretty' him up. But I think Heath totally embodies the character though.  I would have like to seen a more homely Jack as well.  But with each viewing I am appreciating the great job Jake did.  Isn't he only like 24 when he did the movie?  !  I can see where Annie is coming from.

[cybernaut]

rane99: Sometimes I wonder what Jake is up to with that "I am so not into guys" whenever he goes.    He did the movie in such a profound way (even though he didn't like Ang Lee letting the boys go without much directions nor feedback), that somehow I felt he is such a closeted homo.

Heath is pretty cool about it, I guess he always wanted to tell his side of the story about his tough uncle who happened to be gay.

That's why I find there is some motivations by the major players of "working" on that project especially when nobody wants to touch it for 8 years! Its pretty risky for Jake to rake up brownie points for that movie... Aren't he afraid that he is going to be stereotyped later on? Career-defining maybe career-suicide for him.

[CherryCake]

rane99: Sometimes I wonder what Jake is up to with that "I am so not into guys" whenever he goes.    He did the movie in such a profound way (even though he didn't like Ang Lee letting the boys go without much directions nor feedback), that somehow I felt he is such a closeted homo.
That's why I find there is some motivations by the major players of "working" on that project especially when nobody wants to touch it for 8 years! Its pretty risky for Jake to rake up brownie points for that movie... Aren't he afraid that he is going to be stereotyped later on? Career-defining maybe career-suicide for him.

ooh, I know, Cynernaut... I'm getting vibes from Jake.. but I could be wrong. I like the fact that in an interview he said he was flattered for people to think he is bi-- he has more options for roles... and later he says he wouldn't be afraid if he found he was attracted to guy..  or words to that effect.. have you seen that article? Not that it matters if he is or not.  I respect him for being open about the whole deal.

[cybernaut]

ooh, I know, Cynernaut... I'm getting vibes from Jake.. but I could be wrong. I like the fact that in an interview he said he was flattered for people to think he is bi-- he has more options for roles... and later he says he wouldn't be afraid if he found he was attracted to guy..  or words to that effect.. have you seen that article? Not that it matters if he is or not.  I respect him for being open about the whole deal.

Well, for me, I thought he should be cool about this but the one on Oprah and other late night shows, he was like "I am not gay" gig.. Get off!  ::)Shows his inmaturity in that matter so that's why I wondered if he is a closet homo to even consider the movie. Heath is more like the posterboy for gay rights but he is so definitely not gay.

I remember the interview when Howard Stern confronted Toby Maguire a few years ago on Letterman whether he is gay. Toby refused to answer the question. Howard hounded on him - "Its a simple question. YES OR NO?" It really freaked Toby out and still didn't answer the question. I guess the writings on the wall.

I know its none of my business if they are gay or not. But I hope both Jake and Toby can at least be honest with themselves.

[matsuki33]

as a straight men point of view i need to say that maybe they are just not gay maybe look gay but are not gay i'm not expert on this but well... that is my opinion

[BBBOY]

Bottom line is does it really matter. I choose to be openly gay and have done so since I was 23. But that's my choice. I don't care if Jake or Toby are gay str8 or bi. It's their life and unless I should happen to cross paths with them (highly unlikely) it won't mean a rat's a** in my life. And at my age even if I did cross paths with them I'm sure they would look through me like I was Mr Celophane so it still won't matter. Isn't one of the reasons some of us are here is all about just being who we are? No labels, no judgements, no fear. Don't label an actor or actress gay or str8. What difference does it make? As long as gay people accept the idea that there is a difference then there will be. Seems to me that at times we are part of the problem rather than part of the solution. End of sermon.............the collection plate will now be passed. Amen.

[jackie62]

Bottom line is does it really matter. I choose to be openly gay and have done so since I was 23. But that's my choice. I don't care if Jake or Toby are gay str8 or bi. It's their life and unless I should happen to cross paths with them (highly unlikely) it won't mean a rat's a** in my life. And at my age even if I did cross paths with them I'm sure they would look through me like I was Mr Celophane so it still won't matter. Isn't one of the reasons some of us are here is all about just being who we are? No labels, no judgements, no fear. Don't label an actor or actress gay or str8. What difference does it make? As long as gay people accept the idea that there is a difference then there will be. Seems to me that at times we are part of the problem rather than part of the solution. End of sermon.............the collection plate will now be passed. Amen.

well put

still a problem in hollywood where i think an openly gay /bi actor of either gender would face big consequences.


One other poi is the fact that the playing of a gay character can still be seen as risky by some producers
 An uk film critic commented on the potential damage playing Jack could have on Jake Gyllenhaal's career. The perception of him as the" more openly gay" character in the movie, and apparently his role in the 1st tent scene, could leave him more exposed than Heath Ledger--- don't understand this myself.

[bram]

Well, not that this is any kind of proof or anything, but Jake pings me. My gaydar is very good and something about Jake pings me just a little bit. I've never been wrong before, as far as I know.

[Stephen]

Well said, BBBoy. As for the scene cut short, there is also a little scene or two in the screen play that didn't make it to film; but I know from an interview that Ang Lee has artistic reasons for every detail he put on the screen; wouldn't it be great if he would come to this forum and answer some of our questions! I think Annie Proulx agreed to Mr. Lee's changes because, as was previously mentioned, she was learning just as we are that what's on the page must often be changed, fractured, deleted, to better service the story on film. I think the motel scene works in print, but on the screen it would have been too much too soon and all at once.

[Patriot1]

Christ!  We sound like a bunch of heterosexuals standing around the water cooler gossiping about the guy in Accounting and whether he is a fag or not.  Who cares?  If he is, is it going to make us change our mind about his acting abilities?  It is speculation and gossip that ruins a person's career.

[Troy]

I'm replying to a few posts.

1. Annie Proulx said Heath Ledger got under her skin and was the real Ennis, not because of his looks, but his superb acting, so she wasnt imagining a good looking Ennis with an unattractive Jack.

2. Annie agreed Lee was correct in moving that scene from the motel room to outdoors, simply because it is far more powerful dramatically to place an important emotional scene like that towards the end of the movie. Normally, in a  movie, you reach emotional climaxes towards the end, everything builds to it. Not a good idea to put strong emotions too early on in it.

3. Jake Gyllenhaal is of Swedish (nobility) (fathers side) and Russian Jewish descent (mothers side). This is a pretty liberal background. His favourite story is To Kill A Mockingbird (about racism). Both his dogs are named after characters in it. Swedes and Jews often tend to feel very strongly about bigotry and have liberal sexual values.  He also just doesnt seem like a particularly macho guy, like Heath. He's openly emotionally expressive. I can easily see him as just being a very liberal straight guy.  I dont see anything wrong with his insisting that he is straight. It could even be better for us that way.  It gives other straight actors the courage to play gay roles without being branded gay, and it shows society that there is nothing wrong with a straight man pretending to be gay (on film).

[Stephen]

thankyou for your post, Troy; very insightful. I agree with your take on Jake. It must have been trying, to say the least, for the actors to promote the film so long after shooting it (a year and a half after!)....Ang Lee said during one of the post--Academy interviews that both actors, Gyllenhall and Ledger, are shy and were a bit reluctant to be interviewed frequently........