Topic: In Chains or Free---Ennis and Jack as symbols

[Tony]

     Long before I saw BBM, I had slowly come to realize my understanding of the male "condition" was sorely in need of review.  As a part-time
liberal, and with two older sisters that I dearly loved, I accepted the prevailing theories that women were oppressed and males were free to do
whatever they wanted to do, the whole system being geared up in favor of males.  Over years, I saw strong evidence the other way---men are
also oppressed.
    I have seen so many men who have felt and accepted they were drones, meant to work 40 years, and then die early of a heart attack or
whatever.  Men who felt they were imprisoned by their sexual needs for women that forced them to marry, if for no other reason than to at
least have some freedom from the rat-race of always being subject to---no sex.
  And then, of course, the societal pressures against displaying emotions, or behaving differently from the other guys.  I noticed the falseness
of prevailing theories.  Most of my male friends that went through a divorce suffered much more than the women, emotionally, and I have seen
studies supporting this.  It's also true, of course, women suffer financially, and can be discarded, but what I saw was the other side of the
story showing up.  So, men can't weep, can't experiment without being called gay (although, these days, women are allowed to say they tried
same gender), can't have any gap in their work record, and damn sure can't talk about their hurts on Oprah.  Isn't done.  Not allowed.
   Some part of this seems to be showing up in BBM. Ennis says: "Did you ever hear about child support?"  And. it would seem, most of his life,
he was a STANDARD, not unusual, model of the imprisoned male.  And Jack, the male who rejected the chains, a free spirit, hungering for being
a PERSON, more than being a male.
  If this theme is there, then there are slight changes to much that we see.  Even the killing of Earl, no more than a symbol of the gender
enforcement chains, that were there anyway.
   Anyone want to explore this?  Ennis as the standard imprisoned male, who found brief freedom that summer on the mountain?  Even the
freedom to weep?  And Jack, the man who rejected all that his father stood for, who sought male.....freedom?
  Both lost, of course.  Jack's freedom, according to one version, led to his death.  Ennis remained in chains, unable to move on, but alive.
Sort of.  He had the memories of that experience of being a human first, a male, second.  A male who could love and be loved, in defiance
of the scripts written by the world.  That is what I am asking--how much of this theme is there in BBM---chained, or free?

[jackster]

Chained or Free. I’ll try a couple of thoughts . . . see whut you think . . .

1. To me it seems that’s what the whole story is about, isn’t it? The boys discovered the joy of the freedom to be themselves up on the mountain, and then come down from the mountain to be re-enslaved, i.e. chained, again by their real worlds. And the story enfolds of how each fought it, coped with it, or tried to fight it.

2. Isn’t what we see in the transformation of Ennis, starting from the island, a lone man, “Ennis” his first word, to finally the loving man, “Jack, I swear” his final commitment to Jack, isn’t this the transition of a man from a chained man to a free man? A man of free will.

All I’m sayin’ here is that to me it seems that what you’ve laid out Tony is, IMHO, a pivitol message of the story, the evolution of a man symbolizing the evolution of all men.

[Tony]

  Hi, Jackster---I had been thinking of Annie Proulx's focus in her other works, on a background that included the shackles of low-income and also
the local mentality and ways of life, and then added in my own noticing how many men are prisoners to a written script of what a man must be.
Ennis, it seemed, was a prisoner not much different from most men, in the West or wherever, while Jack would not be bound by the rules (or chains).
   But I have to say, you took that football and ran with it all the way to a touchdown.  The concept of BBM as the evolution of one man to
freedom, and even symbolizing the evolution of all men to freedom (I don't have your words directly before me) was new to me. but I saw that
that is in fact what happened.  Ennis found freedom.  Somehow.
  That was the biggest leap I've seen, in a topic, and, in many ways, could actually just cover the subject, shutting down all the smaller stuff.
My question is....how come nobody ever said that before?  It was right there all the time, but I, for one, never got that final message.
  It's rare that someone can change how I see this movie.  For the better.  That was a touchdown, dude. Look out for the fanny pats--they
can be annoying.

[jackster]

Thanks Tony. In thinking about this a bit more, and Annie in particular, I’m reminded of her description of Ennis just after the reunion, when he’s introducin’ Jack to Alma. Her magnificent, yet sparse description of a man, once free, now chained again, who has just tasted his freedom again . . . .

His chest was heaving. He could smell Jack, the intensely familiar odor of cigarettes, musky sweat, and a faint sweetness like grass, and with it the rushing cold of the mountain.

the rushing cold of the mountain . . . freedom, yes Ennis, you remember now what it was like with this man? Freedom Ennis, freedom, you can smell it, taste it, feel it, it's standing right here next to you. Damn.

PS. fanny pats? hey, that's what it's all about, see ya' in the locker room 

[tpe]

Chained or Free. I’ll try a couple of thoughts . . . see whut you think . . .

1. To me it seems that’s what the whole story is about, isn’t it? The boys discovered the joy of the freedom to be themselves up on the mountain, and then come down from the mountain to be re-enslaved, i.e. chained, again by their real worlds. And the story enfolds of how each fought it, coped with it, or tried to fight it.

2. Isn’t what we see in the transformation of Ennis, starting from the island, a lone man, “Ennis” his first word, to finally the loving man, “Jack, I swear” his final commitment to Jack, isn’t this the transition of a man from a chained man to a free man? A man of free will.

All I’m sayin’ here is that to me it seems that what you’ve laid out Tony is, IMHO, a pivitol message of the story, the evolution of a man symbolizing the evolution of all men.

Interesting topic.

I do think that what Ennis and Jack discovered in BBM both liberated AND enslaved them.   This dichotomy is certainly clear in the case of Ennis, where the realization of his own powerful desires impelled him to try to control it, on account of his notion of perceived threats from a hostile world.  With Jack, the dichotomy is evident in his sense of finding completeness in his love for Ennis, but becoming a slave to Ennis's refusal to consumate this sense of completness by a life together.

[manhattangirl]

Interesting topic.

I do think that what Ennis and Jack discovered in BBM both liberated AND enslaved them.   This dichotomy is certainly clear in the case of Ennis, where the realization of his own powerful desires impelled him to try to control it, on account of his notion of perceived threats from a hostile world.  With Jack, the dichotomy is evident in his sense of finding completeness in his love for Ennis, but becoming a slave to Ennis's refusal to consumate this sense of completness by a life together.

It seemed Jack was chained in so many ways.  Jack's biggest dream he told Ennis was to own a ranch and not take the bullsh#@t from Aguirre.  Freedom was always a dream for him, but that freedom was so elusive.   The choices Jack made knowingly or unknowingly chained him to someone to something.  Jack always returned to Ennis, Jack always went back to L.F to his father, and he always returned home to Lureen.  For someone who dreamt of freedom, he never took the "other fork" in the road and just kept going. 

[welshwitch]

In some ways both of them symbolize to me the end of the American Dream. Jack can't take the fourth fork in the road, and Ennis can't escape his fears, because there's no longer the individualistic option of going West and escaping from settled places, living at the edge where cviilsation hasn't caught up with the frontier, where land is there to be taken and anyone can set up and make themselves a living. Even in the West domesticity is the norm - Jack's dreams are those of a past that's gone. A bit like Wilie Loman, he has all the wrong dreams. And ennis seems to have a dim sense that dreams are just that, and knows he has to settle for mundane reality.
The mountain was their Eden, their Newfoundland, in Donne's terms, the green breast of the new world in Gatsby's, but it's an image of a lost paradise and a long-gone empty continent.
Which is why the movie should have included the information about Jack's having shot an eagle, and may be why the sheep aren't cows and Jack and Ennis aren't cowboys.

[B_Mountain_Girl]

They were both chained by something.
I know Ennis was chained by his fears, but what was Jack chained of? He mad it clear, that his father in law was ready to pay him to get lost. Later on... there was no love left between him and his wife. "As far as our marriage goes, we can do it over the phone".

If you want to be together with your love, nothing ever can stand in your way.

Jack made a huge mistake earlier… if he really wanted to be with Ennis… he should have taken the money from his father in law and move to Wyoming, start the ranch business and sooner or later Ennis would have come along to be with him. Free both of them.

In any relationship there is always one initiator, whether is straight relationship or otherwise. Jack as the stronger person in this relation should have taken the matter in his own hands and make the decision for both of them.
Ennis was in love with Jack whether he admitted or not.
Jack… “The truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it”

Ennis never remarried, yet Jack goes back to his wife every time and this makes me wonder why the hell he did it?
 

[manhattangirl]

My impression of this is that when Jack went to Ennis after the divorce and Ennis rejection of Jack at that moment sealed it for him.  Even Ennis's "freedom?"  kept Jack chained to him.  What could he do, except to do what Ennis said, "come back next month",  and Jack did.   

It's the perception of Jack's "freedom" that is so deceptive,  Jack was enslaved by his love, and was dictated to by what Ennis wanted.  Even taking the money LD offered to get lost was shot down by Ennis. 

I think about what jackster and tony was talking about the Ennis's freedom/enslavement in Jack,

Her magnificent, yet sparse description of a man, once free, now chained again, who has just tasted his freedom again . . . .

and Jack's freedom/enslavement in the dream.  I think about what tpe wrote concerning Jack:

With Jack, the dichotomy is evident in his sense of finding completeness in his love for Ennis, but becoming a slave to Ennis's refusal to consumate this sense of completness by a life together.

I may be wrong, but Ennis found freedom in Jack and was content, and Jack found freedom in the dream, and left wanting,  both lost in the end.

[tpe]

It seemed Jack was chained in so many ways.  Jack's biggest dream he told Ennis was to own a ranch and not take the bullsh#@t from Aguirre.  Freedom was always a dream for him, but that freedom was so elusive.   The choices Jack made knowingly or unknowingly chained him to someone to something.  Jack always returned to Ennis, Jack always went back to L.F to his father, and he always returned home to Lureen.  For someone who dreamt of freedom, he never took the "other fork" in the road and just kept going. 

An analogy would be this: Ennis was chained to a rock and Jack was chained to Ennis -- there was no way of Jack escaping without Ennis.  I guess I can say that Jack's freedom was predicated on Ennis's own, that that made it especially difficult, no?

[tpe]

In some ways both of them symbolize to me the end of the American Dream. Jack can't take the fourth fork in the road, and Ennis can't escape his fears, because there's no longer the individualistic option of going West and escaping from settled places, living at the edge where cviilsation hasn't caught up with the frontier, where land is there to be taken and anyone can set up and make themselves a living. Even in the West domesticity is the norm - Jack's dreams are those of a past that's gone. A bit like Wilie Loman, he has all the wrong dreams. And ennis seems to have a dim sense that dreams are just that, and knows he has to settle for mundane reality.

The mountain was their Eden, their Newfoundland, in Donne's terms, the green breast of the new world in Gatsby's, but it's an image of a lost paradise and a long-gone empty continent.
Which is why the movie should have included the information about Jack's having shot an eagle, and may be why the sheep aren't cows and Jack and Ennis aren't cowboys.

Would it be fair to say then that dream's constituted both Jack's freedom and bondage?   He gave himself the ability to dream, but made it subject to the will of another?  There is something conditional about what you call the dream of domesticity, IMO.  As in most relationships and marriages, such a satate is simultaneously a freeing and limiting factor.  Again, this goes back to my reference to implicit dichotomies in the relationship.

[tpe]

They were both chained by something.
I know Ennis was chained by his fears, but what was Jack chained of? He mad it clear, that his father in law was ready to pay him to get lost. Later on... there was no love left between him and his wife. "As far as our marriage goes, we can do it over the phone".

If you want to be together with your love, nothing ever can stand in your way.

Jack made a huge mistake earlier… if he really wanted to be with Ennis… he should have taken the money from his father in law and move to Wyoming, start the ranch business and sooner or later Ennis would have come along to be with him. Free both of them.

In any relationship there is always one initiator, whether is straight relationship or otherwise. Jack as the stronger person in this relation should have taken the matter in his own hands and make the decision for both of them.
Ennis was in love with Jack whether he admitted or not.
Jack… “The truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it”

Ennis never remarried, yet Jack goes back to his wife every time and this makes me wonder why the hell he did it?
 

Interesting point of view, B_Mountain_Girl.  Perhaps it would have made a huge difference had Jack done this.  It may have forced Ennis's hand, and perhaps broken the stalemate. 

 

[tpe]

I may be wrong, but Ennis found freedom in Jack and was content, and Jack found freedom in the dream, and left wanting,  both lost in the end.

Excellent way of putting it, MG.  This is certainly much better than my chain analogy, because it highlights the fact that Jack was perhaps on the short end of things.  Not to say that Ennis was totally content, but he would not have dremaed that there was something out there that was much better than the status quo.

[athena0204]

An analogy would be this: Ennis was chained to a rock and Jack was chained to Ennis -- there was no way of Jack escaping without Ennis.  I guess I can say that Jack's freedom was predicated on Ennis's own, that that made it especially difficult, no?

I agree. Ennis' fear kept both himself and Jack prisoners.

[tpe]

I agree. Ennis' fear kept both himself and Jack prisoners.

Yes, and I think he probably didn't realize that he was also holding back Jack.  Or did he?

[athena0204]

Yes, and I think he probably didn't realize that he was also holding back Jack.  Or did he?

I think he did realize that he was holding back Jack, because he knew how much Jack loved him. He knew that all Jack wanted in his life was to be with him, and Ennis wanted the same thing in his life, but he felt like society gave them no choice. When he tells Jack, "If you can't fix it," he's telling Jack that he knows that they're both miserable pretending to be something they aren't, but they can't really do anything about it. Which brings us back again to the fundamental difference between Ennis and Jack. Jack believes he can do something about it, and won't surrender to society, while Ennis wants to do something about it, but his fear keeps him in chains. Of course, we all know that it keeps Jack in chains as well, because not being with Ennis hurts Jack and it's killing him inside, but Ennis just figures that they both have to put up with their misery. Ennis reminds me of a poem by Edgar Lee Masters:

"I have studied many times
The marble which was chiseled for me --
A boat with a furled sail at rest in a harbor.
In truth it pictures not my destination
But my life.
For love was offered me and I shrank from its disillusionment;
Sorrow knocked at my door, but I was afraid;
Ambition called to me, but I dreaded the chances.
Yet all the while I hungered for meaning in my life.
And now I know that we must lift the sail
And catch the winds of destiny
Wherever they drive the boat.
To put meaning in one's life may end in madness,
But life without meaning is the torture
Of restlessness and vague desire --
It is a boat longing for the sea and yet afraid."

Ennis is "a boat longing for the sea and yet afraid". He knows being with Jack will give him meaning and happiness in his life, but of course, he's afraid of society, and because of this, he knowingly makes both his life and Jack's life like this poem...they couldn't find the freedom, happiness, and meaning they sought in life because they couldn't be together. In the end, Ennis realizes all of this...he realizes what he's done, how he should have just "lifted the sail and caught the winds of destiny" with Jack.

[myprivatejack]

"I have studied many times
The marble which was chiseled for me --
A boat with a furled sail at rest in a harbor.
In truth it pictures not my destination
But my life.
For love was offered me and I shrank from its disillusionment;
Sorrow knocked at my door, but I was afraid;
Ambition called to me, but I dreaded the chances.
Yet all the while I hungered for meaning in my life.
And now I know that we must lift the sail
And catch the winds of destiny
Wherever they drive the boat.
To put meaning in one's life may end in madness,
But life without meaning is the torture
Of restlessness and vague desire --
It is a boat longing for the sea and yet afraid."

Splendid poem,Athena¡ It's the most proper to Ennis vision of life.I like your way of seeing it too... IMO,for Jack,his love for Ennis was at the same his freedom and his chains; for Ennis,this love is a way of feeling himself more chained to society,to rules,to fear,to himself...Old good times in Brokeback remained far away.

[Tony]

  It's been a surprise to see where people have gone with this topic.  Jackster went to an over-arching and new (as far as I know) aspect of BBM
as the evolution of one man (Ennis), symbolic of all men, to freedom.  Tpe then went to the real problems of the relationship between the 2 men
as both liberating and chaining, and that set me back, because that goes....everywhere, and requires a lot of thought.
  B_Mountain_Girl, Athena (and her very beautiful poem), MPJ, and Manhattangirl, each went to those issues of Jack and Ennis and where they
were free and where they weren't, which is open to a very great deal of probing, and is very much at the basic level of the story.
  Welshwitch had some very valid thoughts on the subject of the story being entwined with the end of the frontier and of the real West, as it
had been known, and there are those underlying themes in Annie Proulx's western stories.  And that's where I'd like to go a little further, myself.
  One thing that always struck me was that Ennis and Jack were loners---we don't see any close friends.  And, as loners, maybe they were
the last remnants of the original west, of rugged individualism.
  Also, they were free of groups.  Ennis wants no part of the "fire and brimstone" church Alma favors, and Jack went to the Moose (?) lodge
dance but did not seem to be a part of the social groups there.  Neither were "networkers".  They seemed to be free of any strong political
views (although a scene may have been deleted that would contradict that, which may be why it was deleted---about hippies or something).
And free of racism or sexism.  There were no smug jokes about the Chilean sheep-herders, and Jack sure didn't seem to be...anti-Mexican.
  And yet, as rugged individualists, they were not unaware of the threat from the larger world (Ennis, especially so), and any chance they may
have had of repairing the damage from their last meeting, by one version, was destroyed by group mentality.  A gang of thugs.  Even if that
was not how Jack died, both knew the danger of...group thinking, hostile to them.  Which would be part of the end of the real West---the
loss of freedom to roam free, lost to civilization and groups, bringing good and evil into the equation.  Reckoning with...the rest of the world.
  Anyway, the posts about where Jack and Ennis were free in some ways, but bound in others, to a great hurting of both, were, in every case,
just what was there.  I had thought Jack was ever free, for example, but Manhattangirl showed where he was chained.  I've learned something
from every post, and, again, Athena's poem was one I'd never seen before and it is a challenge, the question of risk in life, to be free, or even
to be alive.

[jackster]

Tony, glad to see your thoughts here. Loners. Not sure I’d fully agree with this characterization of these two, but that may depend on your terminology here. Loners (in my book anyway) don’t usually end up married, or go to bars to drink and socialize as these guys do both before and then after they’re married or divorced. Jack meets Lureen (and a clown) in a bar; Ennis meets Cassie (and a fight) in a bar. Yeah, we don’t see any best friends, but maybe they both knew they already had that.

I like your idea of “rugged individualists” especially in the case of Ennis. He doesn’t want to need anyone, he’s not antisocial, just not very experienced or trained in social behavior, and maybe he doesn’t seem any need in it. No advantage in it, too many chains.

Annie’s books are populated with this type of character, not antisocial, but self-sufficient. Not dependent on something got from others, either physical or emotional. This is sort of the epitome of the frontier character. You had to be self-sufficient, or you died. Cut your leg with an axe while chopping wood, you need to know how to fix it, no one, no hospital, no doctor, nearby. Get thrown from your horse while carrying supplies, you need to git up and make it back to camp, or you’re dead. I believe there was (and still is) a great deal of pride taken by these men, (I’ve know a few), men who know a little about a lot, who know how to cook, plant, hunt, ride, and build. All skills required to survive as an individual in the wilderness. These men don’t necessarily dislike people, but they know how to survive without them because their lives can depend on it.

Annie spoke about the myth of the cowboy in Casper in Oct ’06. I was fortunate to hear her speak. Much of the discussion was about how much of this “individualist” cowboy persona is really just myth via movies, and pulp fiction, and how much was actual reality. I feel that what many of Annie’s stories illustrate are two important ideas – one that these independent, individualist characters from the “original west” weren’t really that different from today’s folk; and two, this type of character is actually still around today. They’re not really dead and gone, but perhaps like the so-called “old west” maybe just the myth of them is gone. JMHO

[tpe]

I think he did realize that he was holding back Jack, because he knew how much Jack loved him. He knew that all Jack wanted in his life was to be with him, and Ennis wanted the same thing in his life, but he felt like society gave them no choice. When he tells Jack, "If you can't fix it," he's telling Jack that he knows that they're both miserable pretending to be something they aren't, but they can't really do anything about it. Which brings us back again to the fundamental difference between Ennis and Jack. Jack believes he can do something about it, and won't surrender to society, while Ennis wants to do something about it, but his fear keeps him in chains. Of course, we all know that it keeps Jack in chains as well, because not being with Ennis hurts Jack and it's killing him inside, but Ennis just figures that they both have to put up with their misery. Ennis reminds me of a poem by Edgar Lee Masters:

"I have studied many times
The marble which was chiseled for me --
A boat with a furled sail at rest in a harbor.
In truth it pictures not my destination
But my life.
For love was offered me and I shrank from its disillusionment;
Sorrow knocked at my door, but I was afraid;
Ambition called to me, but I dreaded the chances.
Yet all the while I hungered for meaning in my life.
And now I know that we must lift the sail
And catch the winds of destiny
Wherever they drive the boat.
To put meaning in one's life may end in madness,
But life without meaning is the torture
Of restlessness and vague desire --
It is a boat longing for the sea and yet afraid."

Ennis is "a boat longing for the sea and yet afraid". He knows being with Jack will give him meaning and happiness in his life, but of course, he's afraid of society, and because of this, he knowingly makes both his life and Jack's life like this poem...they couldn't find the freedom, happiness, and meaning they sought in life because they couldn't be together. In the end, Ennis realizes all of this...he realizes what he's done, how he should have just "lifted the sail and caught the winds of destiny" with Jack.

A very apt metaphor, indeed.

This certainly highlights the deep contradictions in Ennis -- the sense of frailty hidden underneath the stony exterior.  From what you say here, I can agree that he was indeed aware that he was holding back Jack.  But as you say, he couldn't really do that much about it.  The more he hid, the more he perhaps revealed, as with Whitman's:

Here the frailest leaves of me and yet my strongest lasting,
Here I shade and hide my thoughts, I myself do not expose them
And yet they expose me more...

[Tony]

  Hi, Jackster---am in complete agreement with your description of the rugged individualists out west who had (and still have) to be prepared
for handling things on their own.
  But my use of the word "loners" needs a better explanation. The rodeo clown scenes are discussed on another thread, but you can see some
element there of the loner vs. the crowd.  Jack attempts a one-to-one (of whatever kind) with the clown, who rebuffs him and returns,
sneeringly....to the group.  I can't picture Jack or Ennis amidst a group, tribally, playing pool and teaming up.  That's part of being a loner, not
giving one's self over to the larger social unit.
  A loner does get married, does work with others well, does have a family, but refuses to surrender himself to group mentality.  This is a
distinction I am personally sensitive to because all my life I have been in groups but caught holy hell when I wouldn't go along with "group-think".
And, as a hybrid, I noticed the purists, who never bothered to belong to a group in the first place, but would make one-to-one friendships only.
  As loners, then, Ennis and Jack had that additional freedom of being true to themselves, for better or worse (belonging to a group has
healing, which was denied to these two).  But then, in pairing off, 2 loners, new chains arrived, as they had to adapt to each other.
  I do continue to see them as loners, independent of the rest of the male world, and having to find a way to give up some freedom to
accomodate the love that was born.

[jackster]

In general agreement here Tony, now that I see your idea of a "loner". Been one myself most all my life. I was thinking more along the lines of "those guys you see around sometimes" always alone, and antisocial as well. I think part of what bonded these two is their common feeling (or lack of) towards social interaction, doesn't seem a high priority with either one. It's interesting to me thinking of Jack, who seem the more social of the two, yet he's the one going back to Brokeback for a second year. Pretty lonely outpost, even if you're camped together, most of your day is spent alone. But I suppose if you're looking for an excuse to spend all summer with a man (any man) this is a pretty sweet deal.

To be honest I prefer "individualist" or "independent" just 'cause it seems to have fewer negative connotations, but that's just me. Seems like those guys that shoot up schools or something are often described as "loners" (O.T. would Ennis do this?). In any case, I'm interested in your idea of how they both give up (or struggle and try to give up) their singularity in order to make this pairing. This is an interesting concept, one that I've struggled with myself and one reason BBM resonated with me personally. Giving up the chain of independence for the chain of love. Is this required, are independence and love exclusive? A very interesting question.

[Tony]

  Jackster, thanks for accepting the closer definition of the word "loner", even though, lately, it has gotten a bad rap.  Used to be an OK word.
Loners would come in all kinds of categories, and at least some would be that way because they are either self-absorbed or because they are
self-centered.  If self-absorbed, they are just internalizing the world, and can deeply love.  If self-centered, the world rotates around them,
and anything that looks like love is probably some kind of sick, and very shallow, substitute for love.  And, of course, a loner doesn't have to
have either of those characteristics, but I mentioned them for a reason.
  I'll take a risk and say that Ennis was a self-absorbed loner, internalizing the world, and Jack was your standard, independent loner, not reliant
on a group for validation of his existence.
  Will take another risk and say that a loner would be the truest lover, not carrying all the social baggage of relying on groups, but very much
able to invest his or her all in the one that is loved.  If they can find them.
  But if they do find them, they are still left with the dilemma of independence vs. entanglement, and for loners, that is going to be a difficult,
and hurtful experience.  But it would still be, IMO, the truest love.
  If you describe yourself as somewhat of a loner, Jackster, I kind of think you fall into the better categories, as every one of your posts show
insight and an almost rugged sensitivity.  I think you would have done well on the mountain.  Wish I could say the same for myself.

[athena0204]

Ennis thought that he was protecting both himself and Jack from what he was certain would be a horrific and brutal murder if people found out about them. Ironically, Jack ended up dying in that way. Perhaps if they had lived together, they would have been safe, and of course free and happy. Though I do fear that Ennis' worst fears might have happened, they might have both been killed, which makes me very sad.  I always wish Ennis had listened to his heart, and never let Jack out of his sight. I wish they had never parted ways after the summer they met, and it would have been like that if society wasn't ignorant and hateful, but because society was like that, it kept them both prisoners in chains. Jack was willing to take a risk, but Ennis feared that they might both lose their lives...and in the end, who can blame him? After seeing what happened to Earl when he was just a child, that fear haunted Ennis for the rest of his life. In the end though, Ennis still does blame himself for not listening to Jack. If he had another chance, he would have never let Jack out of his sight, because he realized Jack's belief in life. That it's better to have true love, and be happy with your one true love, then live a hundred years betraying yourself and feeling miserable. Jack didn't think of a life without Ennis as a life at all. Ennis knew that a life without Jack wasn't really a life, but he was too afraid, in the end, he blames himself, (even though it is understandable why he had that fear because his horrific memories). He realizes that a life without love is nothing.

[jackster]

. . . . I'll take a risk and say that Ennis was a self-absorbed loner, internalizing the world, and Jack was your standard, independent loner, not reliant
on a group for validation of his existence.
  Will take another risk and say that a loner would be the truest lover, not carrying all the social baggage of relying on groups, but very much
able to invest his or her all in the one that is loved.  If they can find them.

Well put Tony. Had an exchange here once with someone about Introverts, and what it means to be an introvert. How they internalize the world, including their love for others. How Ennis was a classic introvert, how he completely internalized his love for Jack, almost to the point where he couldn't even "see Jack" anymore, Jack was completely inside him. I found this really interesting especially as it helped me understand myself and how I deal with my own "Jack". It sounds like this is similar to what you're saying about Ennis bein' a self-absorbed loner. His love was certainly true, 100% true, seems to me anyway. There's never anyone else but Jack, he realizes this after the first summer but too late, as he confesses in the motel room (SS), and it shows the way it explodes unexpectedly in him during the reunion kiss. I've always felt that only the basic emotion of self-preservation was stronger in Ennis than was his love of Jack (an' I don't wanna' be dead), and this emotion of self-preservation eventually changed places with his love for Jack, but again too late "I swear".

  I think you would have done well on the mountain. . .

You're way too kind here T. Like many of us here, I've been on my own BBM, been workin' my way across it for a long time. Lots of questions, just like the great ones you've opened Tony, not to many easy answers.