Topic: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"

[tpe]

Yes,but she also wanted a husband.When I said that I didn't imagine her as Lureen,I was referring to the point we were discussing then; her reaction if she had discovered Ennis and Jack's relationship.And I meant that I didn't believe that she hide behind her career to cover his marriage failure before everybody, because she had a social position to maintain,as Lureen did -if she really knew or imagine something about the two men-.It's only in this sense of social hypocrisy than I don't compare Cassie with Lureen,but I do in their independence,greater in both cases than Alma's.

Distinction understood. 

I guess it depends on whether the relationship would have cooled, as with Jack and Lureen later on -- and I suspect that her ambition and Ennis's lack of it may indeed present itself as a future wedge between tham -- one that would push them apart and cool their regard for each other.  We also see a hint of this with Alma, no? 

I think that if it did, Cassie struck me as strong enough the weather it all under a mask of indifference.

Still, we should note that Lureen didn't exactly know about Ennis and Jack until the very end -- so that we don't really know how she would have reacted had she known. I still think that there may be similarities between Cassie and Lureen that would have been more obvious had Cassie married Ennis and later on lost interest, as with Lureen.  Assuming that she (like Lureen) remained in ignorance of the relationship between Ennis and Jack, her ambitions may provide sufficient impetus to push them apart...

[tpe]

I found it interesting that she happened to be with that Karl guy when she ran into Ennis at the bus station cafe. Apparently this is not a woman who had problems finding male companionship.  Ennis did'nt really seem upset, jeaulous or disappointed. She'd tried to hunt him down leaving notes, inquiring at his job etc..., but Ennis was hiding and did'nt wanna be found.

 He had to know she was pursuing him and wanted something serious , meeting his daughter and so forth, but this was doomed before it got off the ground because unbeknownst to her, Ennis's heart was already spoken for.
 I don't feel he meant to hurt her, but he was not gonna trade Jack for her either, so he just made himself scare to her. Maybe he should'nt have strung her along like he did or let her down easy, but that would require explaining his need to remain single and "unattached".
 She was beautiful and single, and looking for a husband. Again, "puttin the blocks to" may not have meant sex, but perhaps meant pulling in the reins on this relationship with her. Shutting her out, blocking her advances further. He explains this to Jack in response to he question " all this time, your aint found nobody else to marry?". Maybe this was Ennis's way of telling Jack that though he had chances to marry someone, he was having to ward this person off, because Jack was the only one for him after all these yrs.  She could cause alot of problems being inquisitive about his need for so much privacy having such an outgoing personality.  In this way she and Jack were very much alike.
Like Jack, things had to make sense to her or she'd ask alotta questions including who Jack was. If she found out his secert, she'd talk  perhaps to other men in the bar, and Ennis knew it.  That would be a nightmare for him... and he could no longer protect Jack. Just a thought.

I agree that "puttin the blocks" meant more like reining in the relationship -- or not brining it to the next level, which she clearly wanted.

[myprivatejack]

Distinction understood. 

I guess it depends on whether the relationship would have cooled, as with Jack and Lureen later on -- and I suspect that her ambition and Ennis's lack of it may indeed present itself as a future wedge between tham -- one that would push them apart and cool their regard for each other.  We also see a hint of this with Alma, no? 

I think that if it did, Cassie struck me as strong enough the weather it all under a mask of indifference.

Still, we should note that Lureen didn't exactly know about Ennis and Jack until the very end -- so that we don't really know how she would have reacted had she known. I still think that there may be similarities between Cassie and Lureen that would have been more obvious had Cassie married Ennis and later on lost interest, as with Lureen.  Assuming that she (like Lureen) remained in ignorance of the relationship between Ennis and Jack, her ambitions may provide sufficient impetus to push them apart...

Yes,you're right: it depends on whether their relationship would have cooled or not.And it's obvious that this lack of ambition on Ennis side would have been a factor to get it sooner or later.But I see Cassie as a fighter,with a high image of what love and commitment is,just like Jack; so,I don't see her either as able to show herself indifferent if their love for Ennis had died down.But able to fight,to make an "open war" even and only in the end,being able to separate for living her own life by herself.

[tpe]

Yes,you're right: it depends on whether their relationship would have cooled or not.And it's obvious that this lack of ambition on Ennis side would have been a factor to get it sooner or later.But I see Cassie as a fighter,with a high image of what love and commitment is,just like Jack; so,I don't see her either as able to show herself indifferent if their love for Ennis had died down.But able to fight,to make an "open war" even and only in the end,being able to separate for living her own life by herself.

I do think that she is a stronger woman than Alma, and knows exactly what she wants (in this aspect, she is very much like Lureen.)  I see your point about her not accepting things indifferently if she were a fighter.  But it all depends on whether she would still think it would be worth fighting for in the end.  After all, she did give up on Ennis in the end -- and we really can't fault her entirely for this.

[myprivatejack]

I do think that she is a stronger woman than Alma, and knows exactly what she wants (in this aspect, she is very much like Lureen.)  I see your point about her not accepting things indifferently if she were a fighter.  But it all depends on whether she would still think it would be worth fighting for in the end.  After all, she did give up on Ennis in the end -- and we really can't fault her entirely for this.

Yes,but it's not the same being at the beginning of a relationship,whose expectations are a mystery,than, being married with the man you love,seeing that you have someone to struggle against...In this case I really see her as a fighter,because-as you remark-she knows very well what she wants and how to get it,more in Jack's style than Alma,of course.When she had realised that her fight didn't already worth,I see her living independently but openly;neither submissive to fight in her own way to recover him,as Alma,nor living together before society,but with separate lives in all the senses,as Lureen.

[aintfoolin]

Ennis could have married her but he was not going to fool himself again  into thinking he could live without Jack's presence in his life by marrying a woman even more apt to question his relationship than Alma.., but I think she eventually got the message he was trying to send. It was pointless to pursue Ennis further when he does'nt respond  in kind , opting to *hide out* from her, but I think she just wanted an explaination why, a fair question, but one Ennis really could  never  truthfully answer for her. .
 Fact is, Ennis knew she was wasting her time , she did'nt. She fell in love with him for real. It's ironic her story so closely matches Jack's , both have Ennis as their object of love and affection to settle down with but Ennis could not commit fully  to either. In a different time , in a different place, if Ennis had his choice he'd marry Jack if he could be left  alone in peace. That's another fanfic, but  It's something she could never understand.
Unlike Jack, she moved on, gave up and that's something Jack could never do. Regardless of Cassie's pursuits and Alma's marriage to him, all  the twisting, turning ,roads led back to Jack for Ennis. he was not going to give him up no matter how beautiful they were or how committed , or in love they were with  him or unfortunatly how hurt they got.  Both of these women were devastated , but eventually moved on. He was in love with Jack and his heart belonged to him. Anyone else who posed a threat to removing Jack from his life was out of luck from the start. Only they understood what they meant to each other  imo. Thanx.   

[tpe]

I think Ennis really consiously "used Cassie to a certain extent, meaning that I think he never really intended to cross the line once more as far as marriage was concerned.  I think the same forces that stymied Jack were also at work with Cassie.   It suited Ennis to make them believe that there was some hope.  What do you think?

[aintfoolin]

I think Ennis really consiously "used Cassie to a certain extent, meaning that I think he never really intended to cross the line once more as far as marriage was concerned.  I think the same forces that stymied Jack were also at work with Cassie.   It suited Ennis to make them believe that there was some hope.  What do you think?

  Ennis had no choice but to string her along, because of his  secret love for Jack. He gave her hope but it was a false hope for the most part.  She fell in love with the Ennis he allowed her to see, For Ennis, she was the perfect cover between meetings.

For Jack , he had a bond of love deep in his heart. He could take from Jack and very much apply it to himself. His was a selfish love in the sense that he got alot of himself from Jack . Jack was the part of him that could love, give hope, and find freedom. He was Jack's cowboy, and Jack was his "lil darlin" . He had no choice but to give Jack hope. That hope he gave Jack was the same hope he had to keep Jack's presence in his life. Marrying Cassie would only interfere with that , therefore hurt Jack. Ennis had been there, done that once already.  Why make that same mistake twice?

Cassie and Jack  both pursued Ennis. They both saw him vulnerable and available to what they were offering but the balance shifted advantage... Jack...cuz Ennis loved him and Jack had sacrificed so much and invested for so long in Ennis. Jack was Brokeback, Cassie was not. Ennis knew there was no real hope for him and Cassie in the end. She was an "outsider"  really like everyone else.  Jack and Ennis  shared a commonality in a secret love from society , including Cassie. My take.

[manhattangirl]

  Ennis had no choice but to string her along, because of his  secret love for Jack. He gave her hope but it was a false hope for the most part.  She fell in love with the Ennis he allowed her to see, For Ennis, she was the perfect cover between meetings.

For Jack , he had a bond of love deep in his heart. He could take from Jack and very much apply it to himself. His was a selfish love in the sense that he got alot of himself from Jack . Jack was the part of him that could love, give hope, and find freedom. He was Jack's cowboy, and Jack was his "lil darlin" . He had no choice but to give Jack hope. That hope he gave Jack was the same hope he had to keep Jack's presence in his life. Marrying Cassie would only interfere with that , therefore hurt Jack. Ennis had been there, done that once already.  Why make that same mistake twice?

Cassie and Jack  both pursued Ennis. They both saw him vulnerable and available to what they were offering but the balance shifted advantage... Jack...cuz Ennis loved him and Jack had sacrificed so much and invested for so long in Ennis. Jack was Brokeback, Cassie was not. Ennis knew there was no real hope for him and Cassie in the end. She was an "outsider"  really like everyone else.  Jack and Ennis  shared a commonality in a secret love from society , including Cassie. My take.

This true, beautiful, and disturbing.   I fear the same could be applied to Jack.   The difference is that he needed Jack, he couldn't live without him.  But had no intentions of living with him like he had no intentions of marrying Cassie.   And for me, though he never understood all of the sacrifices Jack made for him until the end.  His love, was indeed the selfish kind.  Obsessive, possessive.

This not a knock on Ennis, he put himself in such an untenable position, he no choice but to keep Jack's hope alive, in order not to lose him. 

[aintfoolin]

This true, beautiful, and disturbing.   I fear the same could be applied to Jack.   The difference is that he needed Jack, he couldn't live without him.  But had no intentions of living with him like he had no intentions of marrying Cassie.   And for me, though he never understood all of the sacrifices Jack made for him until the end.  His love, was indeed the selfish kind.  Obsessive, possessive.

This not a knock on Ennis, he put himself in such an untenable position, he no choice but to keep Jack's hope alive, in order not to lose him. 

 Your exactly right MG as usual. It's what'd disturbing about Ennis. What he kept within was more valuable than what he presented to society with Cassie.  He brought her with him to pick up his daughter, who at least knew he was'nt "the marrying kind". Though he hid Jack away, it was Jack who he could'nt live without. It was Jack he showed his  possesive jeaulousy about, not Cassie. That Karl guy with Cassie  did'nt seem to phase him at all. He had no intentions of marrying her, but had all intentions of keeping Jack. He did what he had to do to maintain Jack's presence in his life.
I don't feel he set out to hurt Jack or Cassie, he did'nt create the homophobic society, but he had to live in it the best way he knew how to keep he and Jack safe. Ironically because of this, he was not there to protect Jack when he needed him most. Jack paid the ultimate price , but so did Ennis. He was the one left living with the choices he made.

[tpe]

The final confrontation did reveal Ennis to be possessive, IMO.  It is surprising to note that although he was very much non-commital to Jack, he did have very distinct expectations about their relationship.  But this didn't exactly apply to Cassie, no?  Wheh she showed up with Carl, it seemd to me at first glance that Ennis didn't seem to care much, although I should guess that it must have affected him a bit.

[babytammy7]

  Ennis had no choice but to string her along, because of his  secret love for Jack. He gave her hope but it was a false hope for the most part.  She fell in love with the Ennis he allowed her to see, For Ennis, she was the perfect cover between meetings.

For Jack , he had a bond of love deep in his heart. He could take from Jack and very much apply it to himself. His was a selfish love in the sense that he got alot of himself from Jack . Jack was the part of him that could love, give hope, and find freedom. He was Jack's cowboy, and Jack was his "lil darlin" . He had no choice but to give Jack hope. That hope he gave Jack was the same hope he had to keep Jack's presence in his life. Marrying Cassie would only interfere with that , therefore hurt Jack. Ennis had been there, done that once already.  Why make that same mistake twice?

Cassie and Jack  both pursued Ennis. They both saw him vulnerable and available to what they were offering but the balance shifted advantage... Jack...cuz Ennis loved him and Jack had sacrificed so much and invested for so long in Ennis. Jack was Brokeback, Cassie was not. Ennis knew there was no real hope for him and Cassie in the end. She was an "outsider"  really like everyone else.  Jack and Ennis  shared a commonality in a secret love from society , including Cassie. My take.

This true, beautiful, and disturbing.   I fear the same could be applied to Jack.   The difference is that he needed Jack, he couldn't live without him.  But had no intentions of living with him like he had no intentions of marrying Cassie.   And for me, though he never understood all of the sacrifices Jack made for him until the end.  His love, was indeed the selfish kind.  Obsessive, possessive.

This not a knock on Ennis, he put himself in such an untenable position, he no choice but to keep Jack's hope alive, in order not to lose him. 

Your exactly right MG as usual. It's what'd disturbing about Ennis. What he kept within was more valuable than what he presented to society with Cassie.  He brought her with him to pick up his daughter, who at least knew he was'nt "the marrying kind". Though he hid Jack away, it was Jack who he could'nt live without.It was Jack he showed his  possesive jeaulousy about, not Cassie. That Karl guy with Cassie  did'nt seem to phase him at all. He had no intentions of marrying her, but had all intentions of keeping Jack. He did what he had to do to maintain Jack's presence in his life.
I don't feel he set out to hurt Jack or Cassie, he did'nt create the homophobic society, but he had to live in it the best way he knew how to keep he and Jack safe. Ironically because of this, he was not there to protect Jack when he needed him most. Jack paid the ultimate price , but so did Ennis. He was the one left living with the choices he made.

Beautiful, as always girls!! I totally agree. You said all so well!! Thank you. 

[aintfoolin]

The final confrontation did reveal Ennis to be possessive, IMO.  It is surprising to note that although he was very much non-commital to Jack, he did have very distinct expectations about their relationship.  But this didn't exactly apply to Cassie, no?  Wheh she showed up with Carl, it seemd to me at first glance that Ennis didn't seem to care much, although I should guess that it must have affected him a bit.

He did take note that Cassie had moved on so quickly , I mean Karl did "talk".  and well...he was'nt no fun anyway.
But why should Ennis care? He was'nt lookin for anything serious with her. He liked her yes but had it been Jack showing up like that with say Randall? ...He would have been ALOT more affected. Ennis was'nt conciously calculating but he had to feel somewhat of a releif that Cassie was moving on without him never having to explain his behavior of *hiding out and making himself scarce to her. Though she was in love with Ennis, she never really knew that Ennis could never love or need her the way he needed Jack. Karl may have been a blessing in disguise and never knew the role he played for Ennis. At least she was'nt going to spend her life in lonliness, pining for a lost love because of what he had to do. Might be some solace to him for stringing her along. The two different reactions to the loss of relationships Jack and Cassie is very telling. Did'nt see him doubling over in agony after this loss... or Alma. Only when he felt he was loosing Jack did it affect him in a gut-wrenching breakdown of his emotions. Goes to show who meant more.

[orangetruck]

He did take note that Cassie had moved on so quickly , I mean Karl did "talk".  and well...he was'nt no fun anyway.
But why should Ennis care? He was'nt lookin for anything serious with her. He liked her yes but had it been Jack showing up like that with say Randall? ...He would have been ALOT more affected. Ennis was'nt conciously calculating but he had to feel somewhat of a releif that Cassie was moving on without him never having to explain his behavior of *hiding out and making himself scarce to her. Though she was in love with Ennis, she never really knew that Ennis could never love or need her the way he needed Jack. Karl may have been a blessing in disguise and never knew the role he played for Ennis. At least she was'nt going to spend her life in lonliness, pining for a lost love because of what he had to do. Might be some solace to him for stringing her along. The two different reactions to the loss of relationships Jack and Cassie is very telling. Did'nt see him doubling over in agony after this loss... or Alma. Only when he felt he was loosing Jack did it affect him in a gut-wrenching breakdown of his emotions. Goes to show who meant more.

I find myself being put right in the scenes or certain parts of my own history, with some of your posts. Brings out the points of the story and the emotions of my own. Thanks for sharing..
 

[tpe]

He did take note that Cassie had moved on so quickly , I mean Karl did "talk".  and well...he was'nt no fun anyway.
But why should Ennis care? He was'nt lookin for anything serious with her. He liked her yes but had it been Jack showing up like that with say Randall? ...He would have been ALOT more affected. Ennis was'nt conciously calculating but he had to feel somewhat of a releif that Cassie was moving on without him never having to explain his behavior of *hiding out and making himself scarce to her. Though she was in love with Ennis, she never really knew that Ennis could never love or need her the way he needed Jack. Karl may have been a blessing in disguise and never knew the role he played for Ennis. At least she was'nt going to spend her life in lonliness, pining for a lost love because of what he had to do. Might be some solace to him for stringing her along. The two different reactions to the loss of relationships Jack and Cassie is very telling. Did'nt see him doubling over in agony after this loss... or Alma. Only when he felt he was loosing Jack did it affect him in a gut-wrenching breakdown of his emotions. Goes to show who meant more.

I find myself being put right in the scenes or certain parts of my own history, with some of your posts. Brings out the points of the story and the emotions of my own. Thanks for sharing..
 

BUt somehow, I do sense that Ennis didn't really want to hurt Cassie, although perhaps it was inevitable, given how he truly felt for her.  I think in the end, there was more pity and guilt than true affection, although I don't doubt that in his own strange way, Ennis cared for Cassie.

[orangetruck]

BUt somehow, I do sense that Ennis didn't really want to hurt Cassie, although perhaps it was inevitable, given how he truly felt for her.  I think in the end, there was more pity and guilt than true affection, although I don't doubt that in his own strange way, Ennis cared for Cassie.

I quote that.
I too think what was most palpable was everything Jack, but still, in that cafe, his stray from wanting to hurt others was also his stray from Cassie. We could see it wasn't mapped out inside how he would respond to Cassir or let her go; he didn't want to hurt her. He just couldn't be helped, I think.

[aintfoolin]

For the most part, Ennis was a true loner....with secrets only he knew about. He could ratioalize things out in his mind with no one to interfere concerning his rationalizing and not have anyone interfere with it. Call him selfish, but  I think he wanted to set his own pace where events occured in his life. It all centered around his relationship with Jack. Sooner or later this thing with Cassie was gonna require a higher level of intimacy such as a marriage proposal or an expectation of at least an declaration of love for her. I think he saw it coming and cut her off. I feel he cared for her yes, but only as a friend, some one to pass his time with and have a little fun. But when he saw where this may interfere in his relationship with Jack he rationalized. Either let this thing continue with her and let it get to a certain point of no return or slow things way down to something that was not going to go anywhere. He hid out, she had to hunt him down without sucess. He was caught off guard the day she ren into him with Karl in the cafe and had no real explaination for her except he was "no fun anyway". He knew she would'nt understand his real reasons for dissing her like he did but he could'nt allow this to interfere in his unresolved feelings and love for Jack. He had been through this once before and even though she would have made a great cover, he knew she was no Alma. She would have been unafraid to confront him which would require some explaining. He was'nt ready nor willing to deal with that drama, so he lets it drop. Don't think he set out conciously to hurt anybody, but she was fun for him and was'nt planning on falling in love with her or she with him. MO

[atalley]

As usual, great posts!  I always wondered if Ennis and Cassie ever slept together, or if he never let her get that close.  I think she was in love with him, but she was just a friend to him (someone to spend time with).  I think that by the look Ennis had in the cafe before she came in that he was totally broken about his fight with Jack.  He would have broken it off with her anyway.  He was possibly glad that Cassie found someone else IMO.  Back to the "marriage" ? that Jack posed...I thought it was more or less "small talk"-Jack knew that Ennis would never be with another man, although he may have been wondering if he was using a woman as a screen.  Jack needed for Ennis to know how much being away from him wore him down.  He was hoping for some sort of acknowledgement on Ennis' part, but unfortunately never got it.  Jack was always clawing for more of Ennis, but Ennis was just too afraid.  Never enough time, never enough.  They both sacrificed a lot to be with each other for so little time together.

[tpe]

I quote that.
I too think what was most palpable was everything Jack, but still, in that cafe, his stray from wanting to hurt others was also his stray from Cassie. We could see it wasn't mapped out inside how he would respond to Cassir or let her go; he didn't want to hurt her. He just couldn't be helped, I think.

I think he knew that it was inevitable -- that he was going to hurt Cassie.  But again, fear got in the way...

[tpe]

For the most part, Ennis was a true loner....with secrets only he knew about. He could ratioalize things out in his mind with no one to interfere concerning his rationalizing and not have anyone interfere with it. Call him selfish, but  I think he wanted to set his own pace where events occured in his life. It all centered around his relationship with Jack. Sooner or later this thing with Cassie was gonna require a higher level of intimacy such as a marriage proposal or an expectation of at least an declaration of love for her. I think he saw it coming and cut her off. I feel he cared for her yes, but only as a friend, some one to pass his time with and have a little fun. But when he saw where this may interfere in his relationship with Jack he rationalized. Either let this thing continue with her and let it get to a certain point of no return or slow things way down to something that was not going to go anywhere. He hid out, she had to hunt him down without sucess. He was caught off guard the day she ren into him with Karl in the cafe and had no real explaination for her except he was "no fun anyway". He knew she would'nt understand his real reasons for dissing her like he did but he could'nt allow this to interfere in his unresolved feelings and love for Jack. He had been through this once before and even though she would have made a great cover, he knew she was no Alma. She would have been unafraid to confront him which would require some explaining. He was'nt ready nor willing to deal with that drama, so he lets it drop. Don't think he set out conciously to hurt anybody, but she was fun for him and was'nt planning on falling in love with her or she with him. MO

I think Ennis was very much prone to the same problem all of us are guilty of at one time or another: the tendency to compartmentalize and leave things unresolved because we don't really know how to reconcile the inherent contradictions.

I think that this is only human.  Many things in life do end up this way because they cannot be neatly placed alongside other things in our life.  It's one more way we can connect with the character, and see ourselves in their thoughts and actions...

[tpe]

As usual, great posts!  I always wondered if Ennis and Cassie ever slept together, or if he never let her get that close.  I think she was in love with him, but she was just a friend to him (someone to spend time with).  I think that by the look Ennis had in the cafe before she came in that he was totally broken about his fight with Jack.  He would have broken it off with her anyway.  He was possibly glad that Cassie found someone else IMO.  Back to the "marriage" ? that Jack posed...I thought it was more or less "small talk"-Jack knew that Ennis would never be with another man, although he may have been wondering if he was using a woman as a screen.  Jack needed for Ennis to know how much being away from him wore him down.  He was hoping for some sort of acknowledgement on Ennis' part, but unfortunately never got it.  Jack was always clawing for more of Ennis, but Ennis was just too afraid.  Never enough time, never enough.  They both sacrificed a lot to be with each other for so little time together.

You know, in the screenplay, I assumed that this could have happened, because the ss implied that the cheap white wine he drank with Jr. was a remnamt from the days with Cassie.  So I would assume that this implies that Cassie stayed with him sometimes...


And yes, underneath all the small talk and the probing, I do think Jack invariably let it be known that he was tired and lonely without being with Ennis. 

[lamusica]

I agree, Thomas, that Cassie and Ennis did have a relationship of some sort, including sex.  While Ennis prefered sex with Jack, he wasn't a monk, and Cassie was certainly willing.  I think Jack was wondering if Ennis was having a relationship with anyone else, and also realized that Ennis needed someone, even if it wasn't the love of his life.  Ennis's response also makes it quite evident that there was something between Cassie and him; obviously they had discussed the future -- her going to school.

[lancecowboy]

I agree, Thomas, that Cassie and Ennis did have a relationship of some sort, including sex.  While Ennis prefered sex with Jack, he wasn't a monk, and Cassie was certainly willing.  I think Jack was wondering if Ennis was having a relationship with anyone else, and also realized that Ennis needed someone, even if it wasn't the love of his life.  Ennis's response also makes it quite evident that there was something between Cassie and him; obviously they had discussed the future -- her going to school.

It is interesting, too, that Jack never pursued the subject, as if he didn't care that Ennis found someone else in his life. If he had asked more questions, showed more interests, he would have known that Cassie asserted herself into Ennis' life. I don't think Jack ever asked Ennis what it is that he wanted, except the couple times, after the reunion, and after the divorce. The rest of the time, they just assumed that they knew what each other wanted. It is the danger of over familiarity. They are so good at knowing and feeling what the other person needs in the little daily things, and fulfilling those needs, but that closeness of friendship does not extend to the bigger more important issues. They never discussed the really important stuff, and always ended up arguing or something, when they tried, like the riverside scenes.

They seemed to always lived in the present, till next meeting... But nothing longer term than that. That's why Jack's "I did once." hurt so much. It points to the emptiness of their twenty years. Ennis knew that at that moment, he let slipped the opportunity of a lifetime. And when Jack continued to say that "That's all we have, boy" he broke down.

All this time, he ain't found anyone else, because Ennis was waiting for Jack to dream that dream again.

I'd like to think that if they made it to their November hunting trip, Ennis will be the assertive one and propose something of his own to Jack. Just my wishful thinking, I know.

[tpe]

Thanks lamusica and lance.

I do think that there was a relationship between Cassie and Ennis, and that Jack probably half-expected it from Ennis -- to be involved with a woman.  And yes, there is that danger of being overly familiar to a point that one basically assumes without much resistance or affirmation.  I do think this was a crucual element in what finally led to the final confrontation.

And yes, had they hooked up in November, I could see Ennis perhaps proposing a change -- but with the comment in the ss that things got torqued back to almost where they were, I am not sure how significant a change it would have been.  But the word "almost" gives us hope...

[aintfoolin]

Could be that Jack was speaking to the disillustion and commitment ( or lack of) in their lives concerning marriage as an institution. It's not the first time Jack has questioned Ennis's choices in marriage ("you and Alma, That's a life"?) Though his own marriage to Lureen is still intact after many years, it leaves much to be desired. Ennis has also questioned how Jack's marriage is going. ( "normal and all?).

Ennis has not fully committed to Alma , Cassie or Jack in a traditional way. No long term stability or plans to have it in his life. I feel Jack is asking if Ennis is capable of commiting fully to anyone, including himself. His relationship with Jack is as close as it came to anything long term, and yet, still there is no reason givin to Jack that this will be taken to a higher level on a permanent basis. On top of all his other fears concerning his relationship with another man, could Ennis be one of those men who just has a fear of commitment? An inability to share fully with another human being on a permanent basis? Perhaps deep inside, Ennis never learned how to accept unconditional love. That it really could not happen to him.

 Certainly, he loved Jack, but really, could he let love in? in order to  learn to give unconditional love? Yes, he feels he is "nuthin and nowhere cause a Jack" but in reality , he is something and somewhere because of Jack, he is in love deeper than he has ever felt. That's not a fault, that is a commitment and sacrifice to be with the one he loves just begging to be relished and appreciated by him. Why could'nt he see what was right before his eyes? Marrying another woman just was'nt in the cards for him, but neither was putting his life in perspective and seeing that it was Jack who was the the reason he failed to commit to his other relationships with Alma and Cassie. They loved him too, but for him, Jack was the real deal. Yet he could'nt give into that love either on a permant basis. Just sayin and askin.....

[lancecowboy]

Thanks lamusica and lance.

I do think that there was a relationship between Cassie and Ennis, and that Jack probably half-expected it from Ennis -- to be involved with a woman.  And yes, there is that danger of being overly familiar to a point that one basically assumes without much resistance or affirmation.  I do think this was a crucual element in what finally led to the final confrontation.

And yes, had they hooked up in November, I could see Ennis perhaps proposing a change -- but with the comment in the ss that things got torqued back to almost where they were, I am not sure how significant a change it would have been.  But the word "almost" gives us hope...

Yes, and it is this "almost", this hope, that, I believe, led Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry to add Cassie into the movie, and created the diner scene. With the diner scene, there is no torqued back to where it was. Ennis was lifted to a different plane. Even before that, Ennis was beginning to cut ties with Cassie, to focus on Jack. Yes, I'd like to think that hope guides him....

[tpe]

Could be that Jack was speaking to the disillustion and commitment ( or lack of) in their lives concerning marriage as an institution. It's not the first time Jack has questioned Ennis's choices in marriage ("you and Alma, That's a life"?) Though his own marriage to Lureen is still intact after many years, it leaves much to be desired. Ennis has also questioned how Jack's marriage is going. ( "normal and all?).

Ennis has not fully committed to Alma , Cassie or Jack in a traditional way. No long term stability or plans to have it in his life. I feel Jack is asking if Ennis is capable of commiting fully to anyone, including himself. His relationship with Jack is as close as it came to anything long term, and yet, still there is no reason givin to Jack that this will be taken to a higher level on a permanent basis. On top of all his other fears concerning his relationship with another man, could Ennis be one of those men who just has a fear of commitment? An inability to share fully with another human being on a permanent basis? Perhaps deep inside, Ennis never learned how to accept unconditional love. That it really could not happen to him.

 Certainly, he loved Jack, but really, could he let love in? in order to  learn to give unconditional love? Yes, he feels he is "nuthin and nowhere cause a Jack" but in reality , he is something and somewhere because of Jack, he is in love deeper than he has ever felt. That's not a fault, that is a commitment and sacrifice to be with the one he loves just begging to be relished and appreciated by him. Why could'nt he see what was right before his eyes? Marrying another woman just was'nt in the cards for him, but neither was putting his life in perspective and seeing that it was Jack who was the the reason he failed to commit to his other relationships with Alma and Cassie. They loved him too, but for him, Jack was the real deal. Yet he could'nt give into that love either on a permant basis. Just sayin and askin.....

I think Jack and Alma expected a degree of commitment from Ennis that they never got.  And Ennis knew full well that he couldn't give it to Cassie, which is I think why he delayed.  Marriage or friendship wasn't enough to make Ennis give 100% of himself, because he probably assumed that he couldn't do it without hurting someone.

I think he tried to be fair to everyone, but ended up pleasing nobody.

[tpe]

Yes, and it is this "almost", this hope, that, I believe, led Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry to add Cassie into the movie, and created the diner scene. With the diner scene, there is no torqued back to where it was. Ennis was lifted to a different plane. Even before that, Ennis was beginning to cut ties with Cassie, to focus on Jack. Yes, I'd like to think that hope guides him....

Yes, somehow I felt that the last confrontation had a direct effect on Ennis in that he recognized that he had to stop playing with Cassie's heart.  Even though he knew that he would hurt her, he realized that in the long run, he was doing her a favor.

[myprivatejack]

Yes, somehow I felt that the last confrontation had a direct effect on Ennis in that he recognized that he had to stop playing with Cassie's heart.  Even though he knew that he would hurt her, he realized that in the long run, he was doing her a favor.

I agree in that Ennis decided to cut ties with Cassie,even before the confrontation scene;he little by little had realised than,in his innest self,wasn't able to love a woman completely,to correspond her the way he saw at the end she needed.But I feel-or I'd like to know for sure...-that this last argument with Jack made him understand that his real love was for him.We'll never know it,but I've always thought that maybe the meeting in November had carried a rebuilding of their relationship,because the ball was in Ennis roof,and his state of mind had suffered a shock for good...

[lamusica]

It is interesting, too, that Jack never pursued the subject, as if he didn't care that Ennis found someone else in his life. 

I think this was a big part of Jack.  He didn't mind that Ennis had someone else -- another woman -- a wife.  He really didn't care.  Now, had he suspected Ennis had another man, who knows what he would have done?
I think Jack felt free to go to Mexico, because he was just getting laid -- nothing more, and he could accept that from Ennis, too.  He wasn't MAKING LOVE with those other men.  That was something different.  That's why Lureen and Alma just didn't rile Jack up with jealousy.  They were only there for physical gratification, and to make the boys a home.  No LOVE involved there.  And I think that's why Jack hesitated with Randall.  He knew if he got involved with Randall, there would be more than just sex involved, and he wasn't too wild about starting anything more with another guy.