Topic: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"

[babytammy7]

I think this was a big part of Jack.  He didn't mind that Ennis had someone else -- another woman -- a wife.  He really didn't care.  Now, had he suspected Ennis had another man, who knows what he would have done?
I think Jack felt free to go to Mexico, because he was just getting laid -- nothing more, and he could accept that from Ennis, too.  He wasn't MAKING LOVE with those other men.  That was something different.  That's why Lureen and Alma just didn't rile Jack up with jealousy.  They were only there for physical gratification, and to make the boys a home.  No LOVE involved there.  And I think that's why Jack hesitated with Randall.  He knew if he got involved with Randall, there would be more than just sex involved, and he wasn't too wild about starting anything more with another guy.

I totally agree with you!!! 

[tpe]

I agree in that Ennis decided to cut ties with Cassie,even before the confrontation scene;he little by little had realised than,in his innest self,wasn't able to love a woman completely,to correspond her the way he saw at the end she needed.But I feel-or I'd like to know for sure...-that this last argument with Jack made him understand that his real love was for him.We'll never know it,but I've always thought that maybe the meeting in November had carried a rebuilding of their relationship,because the ball was in Ennis roof,and his state of mind had suffered a shock for good...

I think that the failed marriage with Alma also weighed heavily on Ennis, especially in the matter of Cassie.  But Jack's anger clearly woke Ennis up to another aspect: that it would be unfair to commit to someone if you knowingly knew that you loved somebody else.

[myprivatejack]

I think that the failed marriage with Alma also weighed heavily on Ennis, especially in the matter of Cassie.  But Jack's anger clearly woke Ennis up to another aspect: that it would be unfair to commit to someone if you knowingly knew that you loved somebody else.

I suppose that Ennis hefted the pros and the cons of having a woman by his side:on one hand,the "respectability" before society and its rules and on the other hand,living one more time the failed experience with Alma with another woman who would be another victim.And he saw how,no matter how many fears he had,committing with someone else than Jack wasn't the real and proper solution.Even if it'd be a "disguise" against his true feelings,he understood that it'd be also a disguise for these feelings; and,what's worse,for this another person's feelings too in the end.

[tpe]

I suppose that Ennis hefted the pros and the cons of having a woman by his side:on one hand,the "respectability" before society and its rules and on the other hand,living one more time the failed experience with Alma with another woman who would be another victim.And he saw how,no matter how many fears he had,committing with someone else than Jack wasn't the real and proper solution.Even if it'd be a "disguise" against his true feelings,he understood that it'd be also a disguise for these feelings; and,what's worse,for this another person's feelings too in the end.

Precisely!  And I think in this regard, Ennis was more careful than Jack, since a commitment to Cassie would have meant something to Ennis.  To give Ennis his due, he wasn't playing lightly with Cassie, I think.  He truly didn't want to hurt her, IMO.

[aintfoolin]

I agree. Again, Ennis had went the *traditional* marriage route before. Alot of people got hurt and I think he realized that and cared about it. I don't feel he purposely set out to hurt anybody, and to repeat the same mistake again?...nah. A woman could have a place in his life, but it would be based upon tha Ennis he showed to society. and that's not the real Ennis.

 I just feel he could'nt allow himself Cassie, or any other woman to get pulled back into a situation where so much tension and energy is required to keep up some false romantic notion of love for them while  Jack is still very much in the picture.
He could have easily used Cassie for a *cover*, but what happens when Cassie objects strongly to the fishing  trips? Wonders why Jack drives all the way from Texas to go fishing as Lureen did? Could he trust her to keep quiet? Don't think so. She was'nt Alma.  Why should he upset his own apple cart and actually invite trouble?
 He let her think she had been *jilted* in a traditional way and used himself as "no fun anyway" to beak this thing off. Yes, though I believe he cared for her, he was'nt gettin into another marriage. He had all the love he could handle in a marriage of the heart with Jack. It would almost seem like cheating on Jack for him at this point  especially after turning down Jack's proposal.
 She was *fun*, but I think he weighed the consquences of his actions and imo did the right thing by her. Could have been more tactful, the way he did it, but this is Ennis Del Mar, not Romeo. He was not good at  fancy explainations. MO.

[babytammy7]

 He let her think she had been *jilted* in a traditional way and used himself as "no fun anyway" to beak this thing off. Yes, though I believe he cared for her, he was'nt gettin into another marriage. He had all the love he could handle in a marriage of the heart with Jack. It would almost seem like cheating on Jack for him at this point  especially after turning down Jack's proposal.
 She was *fun*, but I think he weighed the consquences of his actions and imo did the right thing by her. Could have been more tactful, the way he did it, but this is Ennis Del Mar, not Romeo. He was not good at  fancy explainations. MO.

Awww. 

[lancecowboy]

I agree. Again, Ennis had went the *traditional* marriage route before. Alot of people got hurt and I think he realized that and cared about it. I don't feel he purposely set out to hurt anybody, and to repeat the same mistake again?...nah. A woman could have a place in his life, but it would be based upon tha Ennis he showed to society. and that's not the real Ennis.

 I just feel he could'nt allow himself Cassie, or any other woman to get pulled back into a situation where so much tension and energy is required to keep up some false romantic notion of love for them while  Jack is still very much in the picture.
He could have easily used Cassie for a *cover*, but what happens when Cassie objects strongly to the fishing  trips? Wonders why Jack drives all the way from Texas to go fishing as Lureen did? Could he trust her to keep quiet? Don't think so. She was'nt Alma.  Why should he upset his own apple cart and actually invite trouble?
 He let her think she had been *jilted* in a traditional way and used himself as "no fun anyway" to beak this thing off. Yes, though I believe he cared for her, he was'nt gettin into another marriage. He had all the love he could handle in a marriage of the heart with Jack. It would almost seem like cheating on Jack for him at this point  especially after turning down Jack's proposal.
 She was *fun*, but I think he weighed the consquences of his actions and imo did the right thing by her. Could have been more tactful, the way he did it, but this is Ennis Del Mar, not Romeo. He was not good at  fancy explainations. MO.

Aintfooling, I agree with you 100% there. Ennis sure ain't good at fancy explanations, and he tried to do right by her. He knew, after the last meeting with Jack, when everything came on the table, that he could have no one else but him. Ennis just couldn't bring himself to say no to Cassie (or Jack for that matter) so he just stopped seeing her, replying to her notes, and stopped calling her. It's crude and almost cruel, but as you said, that's our Ennis, the locked jaw communicator. It's not until after Lightning Flat, that he began to loosen up, and was able to joke around with Alma Jr a bit. His lack of ability to easily communicate the simplest messages highlight even more, his easy friendship with Jack. But even there, his abilities were lifted only so much. There were still times when he could not get the words out. This emotional handicap makes those magical moments when his face light up with smiles and laughter, almost miraculous. In fact, they were miraculous to Ennis, but as he realized in the diner, "Girls don't fall in love with fun." It wasn't just fun that pulled him to Jack. It was love, the completion of two souls touching. And Ennis knew that no matter how much fun he had with Cassie, the two of them just didn't have what he and Jack shared, the thing with no rein.

Thanks, aintfooling. I love what you wrote and I highlighted above. It really made sense of Ennis for me.

[jackster]

Well said LC, Ennis struggling, punching out his words and emotions . . .

. . . . But even there, his abilities were lifted only so much. There were still times when he could not get the words out. This emotional handicap makes those magical moments when his face light up with smiles and laughter, almost miraculous. . . .  And Ennis knew that no matter how much fun he had with Cassie, the two of them just didn't have what he and Jack shared, the thing with no rein.

Reminds me of the lyrics of the Ronan Keating song "When you say nothing at all" which was turned into a great Ennis/Jack video by johnboy:

It's amazing How you can speak Right to my heart,
Without saying a word, You can light up the dark,
Try as I may I could never explain
What I hear when You don't say a thing

No one else to marry? There was hardly anyone else he could even communicate to other than Jack, and most of that was non-verbal.

[manhattangirl]

Well said LC, Ennis struggling, punching out his words and emotions . . .

Reminds me of the lyrics of the Ronan Keating song "When you say nothing at all" which was turned into a great Ennis/Jack video by johnboy:

It's amazing How you can speak Right to my heart,
Without saying a word, You can light up the dark,
Try as I may I could never explain
What I hear when You don't say a thing

No one else to marry? There was hardly anyone else he could even communicate to other than Jack, and most of that was non-verbal.

It was like that from the start, standing in front of Aguirre's trailer, that non verbal totally visual foreplay, and then you could see Jack's aggressive nature, as Ennis passively looks away aroused(?), and timidly looks over to Jack when he thinks he not looking.  Even stand in the trailer Ennis steps to the side, Jack in the middle of the floor, Ennis lets him then and there take the lead, in what to be something neither could even dreamt of. Maybe that first meeting set the stage for FNIT, Jack took lead, Ennis yielded to it, even he got Jack on all fours, Jack got exactly what he wanted to get,  the pleasure of it, and the price he had to pay for had not even occurred to him, and didn't see it coming.   Isn't there always a price we have to pay for what we want? 

Jack was looking for his pay off of some kind when he asked Ennis that question, Ennis had to now pay his bill.   Jack was handing Ennis his check, and was wondering why Ennis hadn't paid it.  Jack did some saving of his words, and pour it out in front of Ennis that next morning.

JMO.

[lancecowboy]

Well said LC, Ennis struggling, punching out his words and emotions . . .

Reminds me of the lyrics of the Ronan Keating song "When you say nothing at all" which was turned into a great Ennis/Jack video by johnboy:

It's amazing How you can speak Right to my heart,
Without saying a word, You can light up the dark,
Try as I may I could never explain
What I hear when You don't say a thing

No one else to marry? There was hardly anyone else he could even communicate to other than Jack, and most of that was non-verbal.

You know that's one of my favorite songs, but I haven't been able to listen to it without breaking down in the last few months. With my new outlook on Ennis and Heath, I think I will go look for this video from Johnboy.

Thanks, Jackster.

Here is the link: http://youtube.com/watch?v=UVrTDp4KoRU

...and...I still can't watch it all the way through.  :\'(

[welshwitch]

"Take what you want from life," says God, "then pay."

[babytammy7]

"Take what you want from life," says God, "then pay."

So Ennis, so BBM. I see it in that way no matter that maybe you don't understand me friends. I know what I mean.   

[Matt Nasty]

forgive me for not following the current conversation or if this has been said here before ive just checked this thread now for somereason i had seen it a couple of times and never came in due to being side tracked ...


maybe jecks reasons for asking well. they could have just been small talk but possibly i think he wanted ennis to marry maybe he knew his dream was not coming true and ennis was not likely to get a ranch with him, so maybe jack decided Ennis should be close with someone for the times in the year when he and jack are apart just like when jack whent to mexico and the posabilaty of how jack may have had randall for the times when he was not with Ennis, it could be jack didnt want Ennis to be lonely when he wasnt with him, he maybe just wanted someone to light up Ennis life even if it was only a make shift relationship until the next time they could meet... wow sorry that was all over the place i hope it made at least some sense...

[Tony]

It was like that from the start, standing in front of Aguirre's trailer, that non verbal totally visual foreplay, and then you could see Jack's aggressive nature, as Ennis passively looks away aroused(?), and timidly looks over to Jack when he thinks he not looking.  Even stand in the trailer Ennis steps to the side, Jack in the middle of the floor, Ennis lets him then and there take the lead, in what to be something neither could even dreamt of. Maybe that first meeting set the stage for FNIT, Jack took lead, Ennis yielded to it, even he got Jack on all fours, Jack got exactly what he wanted to get,  the pleasure of it, and the price he had to pay for had not even occurred to him, and didn't see it coming.   Isn't there always a price we have to pay for what we want? 

   Hmmm... it's embarrassing to admit that it took me this long to figure out how to include a quote, but even turtles get there, sooner or later.  I thought this post by MG is one of those great examples where someone puts the scenes together in a new way, and gives even more insight into the film and the characters.  At any rate, now I have to reconsider whether it was love at first sight, whether Jack had far more control than I had thought, and also whether what AF called "a marriage of the hearts" preceded the marriage to Alma, making the first "marriage" the real one.  Would that mean the separation after that summer, clumsy as it was, amounted to an inept divorce, later recanted?

[jackster]

. . .  Would that mean the separation after that summer, clumsy as it was, amounted to an inept divorce, later recanted?

Not in my book Tony. "Divorce" seems an intentional, planned action taken to nullify a previous action. It always seemed to me that the painful separation at summers end was another version of Ennis going back to the sheep only magnified in scale and emotion. Like him riding off after the dozy embrace. Like when a military man goes off to service, leaving his girl at the station, something he's got to do, his obligation. Something that has been set into motion and neither party can (or knows how to) reverse. OT here: It would be interesting to compare this "goodbye" with other famous cinematic goodbyes, I'm thinking of Rick and Elsa in Casablanca, both the goodbyes in the Paris train station and later at the Casablanca airport. These are great moments in cinematic lives, and this one at the truck in Signal ranks with the most gut wrenching, rip out your heart scenes. Divorce? Nah, just a painful goodbye or maybe a better word, Au revoir, IMHO.

[manhattangirl]

Jackster, I think I see Tony's point, it was like a divorce, the dozy embrace was ended by "see you in the morning" which seem to leave Jack content, and he waited for the morning.  There was no such thing in Signal, it was ended.  Prematurely, painful to both.  And neither said what was in their hearts.  Rick and Elsa loved each other, but understood they sacrificed their love for something they considered greater then themselves.   Jack and Ennis love each other, now in the real world, let it end there.  Divorce each other,  foolishly thinking they could let each other go, and for what, something better, normal, acceptable?  I might me wrong, but that's how I interpert Tony's post, (forgive me Tony, if I am).

JMO. 

[Tony]

  Dear Jackster and MG - that was a throw-away line that you both reacted to.  I was, and still am, influenced by Aintfoolin's phrase "a marriage of the hearts".  If you take that phrase seriously (and I do), it then creates a different perspective.
  Am not into the politics of gay marriages, and I think "soul-mates" is a term so over-used as to now be meaningless. So what AF's phrase triggered in me was the brainwashing of my particular denomination which says marriage is a sacramental union entered into by the two individuals.  Dumping my church's further definitions, I then have to go to the metaphysics of marriage - did they "marry" by loving so intensely, regardless of whether a verbal commitment was made.  Was there a heartfelt commitment, and, if so, when?  The shirts say Jack made the commitment on the mountain.
  If this is taking the matter too seriously, it's not like we haven't gone bonkers before.  OK, some of us.  I can't get a grip on this.  Jackster's seeing them as just parting for awhile makes sense, and does not mess with AF's description (which I seem to want to legalize), as that could apply at some other time. But Manhattangirl sensed the brambles I am stuck in, meaning, did they, in some way, effect a marriage.  Did they get it right the first time only to let it slip away?  How many angels can you fit on the tip of a needle?  Why did I have to go to parochial school?
  "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"  Or, was SNIT the meeting of two lovers, effectively marrying, and everything after that altered in meaning?  What IS a marriage?  Maybe I should use Jackster-common sense before I end up needing some aspirins.

[Matt Nasty]

i love this whole imagry of "a marrige of the hearts" and the "divorce" its really accurate IMO

[jackster]

Tony and MG: I'm sure not into the politics of marriage either. It was never something that interested me much (gee, I wonder why?) It always seemed that it was basically a public pronouncement and therefore needed a similarly public pronouncement (divorce) to bring it to an end. But I'm no expert here. Re the departures: post Dozy Embrace and then in Signal, "see you in the mornin" and "guess I'll see ya' round then" always seemed variations of the same sentiment only on a different scale to me, but JMHO. I don't think that either guy knew that they wouldn't necessarily see each other again, or for four years. Ennis wasn't goin' far, and there ain't that many folks around Wyoming, so if you're there somebody can pretty much find you if they look. It could be Ennis really did think he'd see Jack "around" workin' some place or driving his truck. I think his pain (in the alley) was due to his inability to effect any other conclusion to the opportunity the summer provided.

Yeah Tony, as usual, after reading your post I needed to sit down and let my head clear. Insightful and incite-ful. MG- wasn't thinking that the Casablanca goodbye was at all similar to BBM other than it was an emotion packed goodbye between two individual who have a love and yearning for each other. Sorry if I gave that impression. Only thought the nature of the cinematic goodbye would be an interesting study, it been done so much and is usually meant to be emotionally powerful.

[aintfoolin]

  Dear Jackster and MG - that was a throw-away line that you both reacted to.  I was, and still am, influenced by Aintfoolin's phrase "a marriage of the hearts".  If you take that phrase seriously (and I do), it then creates a different perspective.
  Am not into the politics of gay marriages, and I think "soul-mates" is a term so over-used as to now be meaningless. So what AF's phrase triggered in me was the brainwashing of my particular denomination which says marriage is a sacramental union entered into by the two individuals.  Dumping my church's further definitions, I then have to go to the metaphysics of marriage - did they "marry" by loving so intensely, regardless of whether a verbal commitment was made.  Was there a heartfelt commitment, and, if so, when?  The shirts say Jack made the commitment on the mountain.
  If this is taking the matter too seriously, it's not like we haven't gone bonkers before.  OK, some of us.  I can't get a grip on this.  Jackster's seeing them as just parting for awhile makes sense, and does not mess with AF's description (which I seem to want to legalize), as that could apply at some other time. But Manhattangirl sensed the brambles I am stuck in, meaning, did they, in some way, effect a marriage.  Did they get it right the first time only to let it slip away?  How many angels can you fit on the tip of a needle?  Why did I have to go to parochial school?
  "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"  Or, was SNIT the meeting of two lovers, effectively marrying, and everything after that altered in meaning?  What IS a marriage?  Maybe I should use Jackster-common sense before I end up needing some aspirins.

 Tony, don't grab the aspirin bottle just yet, Maybe this thing can be seen as something of a * trial seperation. Ennis unknowingly at the time, putting his feelings to the test. He already knew they were connected as his feelings were straight from his heart for Jack, but he's loyal to his promise to Alma. Does'nt mean he loved her more, but that's Ennis, loyal to the core. Caught between this loyal committment to marry , but his heart was not in it. I don't believe he was fully commited to her in his heart. Divorce is such a final word, this was'nt final by any means. His intense grappling with emotions in the alley in Signal speaks to this. He was loyal , married to Alma in name only but his heart lay elsewhere, whereever Jack was in the world, that's where his true calling was. "See ya around then "was maybe a hope that he would.This "marriage of the heart "was'nt finished.

[babytammy7]

I need an aspirin now, not you Tony, baby. Because after trying for half and hour write a decent post I only can say that for me "divorce" is not only the end of a relationship in the sense of being living with/or dating anyone, or having a physical contact with anyone. If that so Ennis and Jack divorced after that summer. But, for me the word divorce, in a relationship, implies emotional divorce: you just feel no longer love for one person. In that case Ennis and Jack was NOT divorced. They were not together, and even that was a kind of negation of their love by Ennis part, but they still loved each other, and Ennis spent 4 damn years thinking about Jack, so for me, they were still married.

Gorgeous posts everyone!! 

[Tony]

    Dear Jackster - yeah, the common understanding of a marriage is a public pronouncement, and a divorce, the same.  Am afraid I've been influenced by a little-known fact about my own denomination's (R.C.) teachings, which are that the marriage actually is effected by the 2 people, and the priest is only a witness.  Dumping the church's other elaborations, then, I am left with a primitive definition of marriage as 2 people saying: it's you and me, and no other.
   Did Ennis and/or Jack reach that level of commitment on the mountain?  Emotionally, I think they did. Jack and the shirts.  Ennis and his brooding on the hill. But the territory being so unfamiliar, they had no rational understanding of what had happened.  In that sense, then, Aintfoolin's "marriage of the hearts" had occurred, and they spent all the following years catching up to it, or trying to. In the broadest sense then, both from a romantic point of view, and even incorporating some element of formalistic dogma (the union is effected by the individuals), it's arguable- them dudes wuz married: it's you and me and nobody else. And that prior commitment may have doomed their formalistic, ritual marriages to their wives.
  Matt-your heart is in the right place.  Baby Tammy, you are right - if there was a marriage, no divorce occurred.  I don't need any aspirins, as it turns out....just several 6-packs and a re-viewing of the DVD and a toast to Jackster:  here's lookin at you, kid (from Casablanca, or did I screw that one up too?). 

[manhattangirl]

 

    Dear Jackster - yeah, the common understanding of a marriage is a public pronouncement, and a divorce, the same.  Am afraid I've been influenced by a little-known fact about my own denomination's (R.C.) teachings, which are that the marriage actually is effected by the 2 people, and the priest is only a witness.  Dumping the church's other elaborations, then, I am left with a primitive definition of marriage as 2 people saying: it's you and me, and no other.
   Did Ennis and/or Jack reach that level of commitment on the mountain?  Emotionally, I think they did. Jack and the shirts.  Ennis and his brooding on the hill. But the territory being so unfamiliar, they had no rational understanding of what had happened.  In that sense, then, Aintfoolin's "marriage of the hearts" had occurred, and they spent all the following years catching up to it, or trying to. In the broadest sense then, both from a romantic point of view, and even incorporating some element of formalistic dogma (the union is effected by the individuals), it's arguable- them dudes wuz married: it's you and me and nobody else. And that prior commitment may have doomed their formalistic, ritual marriages to their wives.
  Matt-your heart is in the right place.  Baby Tammy, you are right - if there was a marriage, no divorce occurred.  I don't need any aspirins, as it turns out....just several 6-packs and a re-viewing of the DVD and a toast to Jackster:  here's lookin at you, kid (from Casablanca, or did I screw that one up too?). 

I miss your posts Tony, you always have the answers in your question.   For me, divorce is emotionally and physically jarring (been there, done that.), and it was just that emotional, painful process of letting go for me was not Ennis pouting on the hill, but getting sick, and Jack was taking the shirts.

It wasn't "I catch up with you in the future", for them that moment in Signal was something they thought had ended.  That "emotional and physical' divorce, separation whatever, each man dealt with it in his own way.

And to think, the corespondent in the divorce was "bad weather".   

[athena0204]

I feel that Ennis was married the summer of 1963, he was married to Jack. On a piece of paper, Ennis was married to Alma, and Jack was married to Lureen, but that didn't really mean anything at all. In their hearts, where it really mattered, where it was really meaningful, Ennis and Jack were married to each other, and had been so since that summer of '63. It's right before Ennis breaks things off with Cassie that he realizes who he's really been married to all those years.

[jackster]

  Did Ennis and/or Jack reach that level of commitment on the mountain?  Emotionally, I think they did. Jack and the shirts.  Ennis and his brooding on the hill.

Tony - Thanks for the Royal Crown explanation of marriage. It helps to see where you're comin' from here. I'm gonna PO a lot a folks and say, I don't think they was married. Yeah, the romantic in me would like to feel that, with all the lovin' and stuff. But they didn't choose to be together, it wus an accident. They made a real good time of it though, they made the time pass. Lots a' young couples have similar summer relationships (maybe without the forced isolation), but do they consider themselves "married"? Having lived and worked on similar isolated summer projects with other young folks who had summer "relationships" I don't recall that they felt married at the end of summer. Don't get me wrong, I ain't saying it was nuthin' here. It WAS no little thing, what they felt, how the connected. Maybe it was beyond marriage in terms of their personal growth and discovery. I'm not sure western culture, or English, has a good word to describe it. It was the union of two souls, or as AF so artfully put it a "marriage of the hearts". Sorry to get hung up on this word, but I been trained to believe marriage was somethin' you needed a license for. What Ennis & Jack experienced, no license (or manual) needed.

[athena0204]

Tony - Thanks for the Royal Crown explanation of marriage. It helps to see where you're comin' from here. I'm gonna PO a lot a folks and say, I don't think they was married. Yeah, the romantic in me would like to feel that, with all the lovin' and stuff. But they didn't choose to be together, it wus an accident. They made a real good time of it though, they made the time pass. Lots a' young couples have similar summer relationships (maybe without the forced isolation), but do they consider themselves "married"? Having lived and worked on similar isolated summer projects with other young folks who had summer "relationships" I don't recall that they felt married at the end of summer. Don't get me wrong, I ain't saying it was nuthin' here. It WAS no little thing, what they felt, how the connected. Maybe it was beyond marriage in terms of their personal growth and discovery. I'm not sure western culture, or English, has a good word to describe it. It was the union of two souls, or as AF so artfully put it a "marriage of the hearts". Sorry to get hung up on this word, but I been trained to believe marriage was somethin' you needed a license for. What Ennis & Jack experienced, no license (or manual) needed.

What they experienced on that mountain in the summer of '63 was true love, and hence they were forever married to each other because they could never love someone else as much as they loved each other. They had a marriage of the souls. Many people are married on a piece of paper, but are the REALLY married in that they completely, truly, deeply, love each other the way Ennis and Jack did? Are they truly soulmates? No. So what really matters more, a piece of paper, or two people who have a love so real, deep, pure, powerful, and true that it transcends everything? For me, it's definitely the latter. Some who are lucky have both the piece of paper and the true love, some have only the piece of paper and nothing really more, and some are like Jack and Ennis, they are married in their hearts, in their souls, and the fact that could never ever "quit" each other spoke volumes about who they were truly committed to...each other.

[manhattangirl]

Tony - Thanks for the Royal Crown explanation of marriage. It helps to see where you're comin' from here. I'm gonna PO a lot a folks and say, I don't think they was married. Yeah, the romantic in me would like to feel that, with all the lovin' and stuff. But they didn't choose to be together, it wus an accident. They made a real good time of it though, they made the time pass. Lots a' young couples have similar summer relationships (maybe without the forced isolation), but do they consider themselves "married"? Having lived and worked on similar isolated summer projects with other young folks who had summer "relationships" I don't recall that they felt married at the end of summer. Don't get me wrong, I ain't saying it was nuthin' here. It WAS no little thing, what they felt, how the connected. Maybe it was beyond marriage in terms of their personal growth and discovery. I'm not sure western culture, or English, has a good word to describe it. It was the union of two souls, or as AF so artfully put it a "marriage of the hearts". Sorry to get hung up on this word, but I been trained to believe marriage was somethin' you needed a license for. What Ennis & Jack experienced, no license (or manual) needed.

"Marriage", "Marriage of the Heart", or a "Summer Thing",  maybe we are hung up on terms, I don't know.  Ennis called it "the thing",  they couldn't defined what it was they had, but fought to hold on to it, and to the point of fighting each other.   I think what they had is just beyond words.     JMO.

[jackster]

Athena - MG - Tony

Yeah, I think we're all sayin' the same thing.
Just depends on if you're using the legal, philosophical, or religious definition of marriage. What the boys had and felt went beyond all these I think. Tony got this started so he's gonna' have to finish it. 

[tpe]

forgive me for not following the current conversation or if this has been said here before ive just checked this thread now for somereason i had seen it a couple of times and never came in due to being side tracked ...


maybe jecks reasons for asking well. they could have just been small talk but possibly i think he wanted ennis to marry maybe he knew his dream was not coming true and ennis was not likely to get a ranch with him, so maybe jack decided Ennis should be close with someone for the times in the year when he and jack are apart just like when jack whent to mexico and the posabilaty of how jack may have had randall for the times when he was not with Ennis, it could be jack didnt want Ennis to be lonely when he wasnt with him, he maybe just wanted someone to light up Ennis life even if it was only a make shift relationship until the next time they could meet... wow sorry that was all over the place i hope it made at least some sense...

I think Jack was concerned about Ennis marrying again in the context of having a "cover" that would anchor him and make him less paranoid.  But I do sense that Jack also resented the thought of Ennis marrying again -- I seem to sense this during that conversation before the last confrontation.    Jack probably felt resigned to the fact that Ennic wouldn't commit to him for the forseeable future; hence, his seeking cover under a nominal marriage would have at least afforded him some security...

[Matt Nasty]

I think Jack was concerned about Ennis marrying again in the context of having a "cover" that would anchor him and make him less paranoid.  But I do sense that Jack also resented the thought of Ennis marrying again -- I seem to sense this during that conversation before the last confrontation.    Jack probably felt resigned to the fact that Ennic wouldn't commit to him for the forseeable future; hence, his seeking cover under a nominal marriage would have at least afforded him some security...

yer agreed, good point