Author Topic: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"  (Read 168675 times)

Offline aintfoolin

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • Gender: Female
  • " You and him did'nt go up there to fish"...
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #180 on: May 24, 2008, 08:45 PM »
   Dear Andrew - as you may have noticed, am a klutz even with quoting, but did want to say, your post and aintfoolin's, taken together, really make for a good, no, great reading of Ennis.  So much lonesomeness there, it's no wonder he changed, subtly, but harshly, when Alma brought that subject up in the bedroom.  She had hit a raw nerve.  She'd hit where it really hurt:  he had been lonesome, and he was STILL lonesome.

 Excellent post Tony, I totally agree. Even within his marriage to Alma, he was still lonesome and I personally feel that he not only enjoyed being alone, but craved it. What ever shaped and molded him growing up got him to this point I believe.  Showed no greed unless it was one man's  company .. Jack. Just basically he is shy and withdrawn. Often mistaken for being *out of it* or backwards thinking. I  feel he likes the feeling of being in his own world, having no use for crowds , or society's rules and regulations. No real expectations or demands. Could get by  with the mininmal amount of friends and asscoiates. He questions Jack by the river about people "knowing" he's in love with Jack just by looking at him. ( "You ever get the feelin?").  He was always mindful of people finding out that he was'nt who he appeared to be.  Getting married did not change this basic personality trait imo. Moved above the laundry because that's what Alma wanted. Alma threw in the his daughters athsma problem to sway him from living out in the middle of nowhere. but if left up to Ennis?...after the divorce, where did Jack find him? back out in the middle of nowhere again , away from people, just a house, 2 horses  ( his other" lil darlins" one for him, one for Jack.) and alot of wide open space. Says alot about Ennis I think. He only felt safe when he was alone. I also think it was part of the reason he *retreated* from Jack's dream . Fear of really connecting with some one and not knowing what to do about it and accepting unconditional love without paying a terrible price for it.  Jack got *in* but  Ennis drew Jack into his world. Jack connected with Ennis in his world of lonley secrecy only to be  held hostage by his love for him.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #181 on: May 25, 2008, 02:06 AM »
Excellent post Tony, I totally agree. Even within his marriage to Alma, he was still lonesome and I personally feel that he not only enjoyed being alone, but craved it. What ever shaped and molded him growing up got him to this point I believe.  Showed no greed unless it was one man's  company .. Jack. Just basically he is shy and withdrawn. Often mistaken for being *out of it* or backwards thinking. I  feel he likes the feeling of being in his own world, having no use for crowds , or society's rules and regulations. No real expectations or demands. Could get by  with the mininmal amount of friends and asscoiates. He questions Jack by the river about people "knowing" he's in love with Jack just by looking at him. ( "You ever get the feelin?").  He was always mindful of people finding out that he was'nt who he appeared to be.  Getting married did not change this basic personality trait imo. Moved above the laundry because that's what Alma wanted. Alma threw in the his daughters athsma problem to sway him from living out in the middle of nowhere. but if left up to Ennis?...after the divorce, where did Jack find him? back out in the middle of nowhere again , away from people, just a house, 2 horses  ( his other" lil darlins" one for him, one for Jack.) and alot of wide open space. Says alot about Ennis I think. He only felt safe when he was alone. I also think it was part of the reason he *retreated* from Jack's dream . Fear of really connecting with some one and not knowing what to do about it and accepting unconditional love without paying a terrible price for it.  Jack got *in* but  Ennis drew Jack into his world. Jack connected with Ennis in his world of lonley secrecy only to be  held hostage by his love for him.

You know, I think what you said summed up Ennis and his response to Jack's sweet life pretty well completely. It was Tony and Jackster who first stated that Ennis is an introvert while Jack is an extrovert. Jack needed people while Ennis needed only his own little world in the middle of no where. I agree with you 100% that whatever shaped and moulded Ennis in his youth, he remained that way, even after Lightning Flat and finding the two shirts. At least, by that time, he moved closer to his daughters, with a mail box in a trailer park that has at least 16 other neighbours. He is no longer afraid, or perhaps more accurately averse to people. He simply preferred the peace and quiet of his own company, his own memories. In the short story, Ennis confessed to thinking about Jack hundreds of times while wringing out (..ahem) sausages.

And what you said makes perfect sense of Jack's frustration at the last scene...I ain't you...After twenty years, Jack finally realized that Ennis needed his own world more than he needed Jack. Jack needed and hungered for Ennis, but Ennis did not know how to get out of the old routine, and step out to a whole new world with Jack, until too late. He preferred to having his apple pie alone in a diner, than putting up with Cassie or risking everything with Jack.

Having said all this, I think what makes Heath's performance special, is that while he portrayed what we said of Ennis above, he also made clear, in his brooding over beer after beer alone in the bar, that first time Cassie went up to dance with him, or his anxious anticipation of Jack that first time in the reunion, or his little kid excitement over their first camping trip, ... and the many scenes of Ennis loving Jack's company. The poor soul just didn't know how to go about changing himself, until too late. That was the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain...Ennis changed too slowly and fate had different ideas for Jack and Ennis.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline aintfoolin

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • Gender: Female
  • " You and him did'nt go up there to fish"...
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #182 on: May 25, 2008, 06:40 AM »
You know, I think what you said summed up Ennis and his response to Jack's sweet life pretty well completely. It was Tony and Jackster who first stated that Ennis is an introvert while Jack is an extrovert. Jack needed people while Ennis needed only his own little world in the middle of no where. I agree with you 100% that whatever shaped and moulded Ennis in his youth, he remained that way, even after Lightning Flat and finding the two shirts. At least, by that time, he moved closer to his daughters, with a mail box in a trailer park that has at least 16 other neighbours. He is no longer afraid, or perhaps more accurately averse to people. He simply preferred the peace and quiet of his own company, his own memories. In the short story, Ennis confessed to thinking about Jack hundreds of times while wringing out (..ahem) sausages.

And what you said makes perfect sense of Jack's frustration at the last scene...I ain't you...After twenty years, Jack finally realized that Ennis needed his own world more than he needed Jack. Jack needed and hungered for Ennis, but Ennis did not know how to get out of the old routine, and step out to a whole new world with Jack, until too late. He preferred to having his apple pie alone in a diner, than putting up with Cassie or risking everything with Jack.

Having said all this, I think what makes Heath's performance special, is that while he portrayed what we said of Ennis above, he also made clear, in his brooding over beer after beer alone in the bar, that first time Cassie went up to dance with him, or his anxious anticipation of Jack that first time in the reunion, or his little kid excitement over their first camping trip, ... and the many scenes of Ennis loving Jack's company. The poor soul just didn't know how to go about changing himself, until too late. That was the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain...Ennis changed too slowly and fate had different ideas for Jack and Ennis.



 Exactly Lance , he was the ultimate introvert, .. thank you,  just the word I was looking for..  He was content to be left alone  to make choices or not make choices.,and it may explain Ennis's silence after Jack's confession of not being able to stand it. Maybe to Ennis, it's understood after so many yrs. that words are  simply not needed. It's 20 yrs. later and he's still meeting Jack.  He can't say he misses Jack too, not  out loud, but it does'nt mean he's not thinking them, but he'll keep that to himself  knowing he can hardly stand it either. He's not that great with words and probably did'nt want to make an ass out of himself, even in front of Jack, ...especially not in front of Jack, but I think that's what Jack wanted ,liked and loved,  Ennis..uncensored .

 I suppose  Ennis  fears the expectations that Jack's confession poses, He knows the statement begs a reply, but he's some one who grew up hard. he will stifle his emotions  when it comes to romantic notions and declarations and  on the hand this man cried in front of Jack, He also has a sensitive side. .showed how emotionally vulnerable he was to Jack when he thought Jack was gonna quit him.
  He's deep, and I guess Jack  just had to understand that, but  Jack needed so bad to hear it verbally. so deserved it. He had put his own vulnerabilities out front for Ennis to hear. So I think he wanted a sign, some word that Ennis give his proposal a second thought. It was only when Jack reminded him that he once had a better idea, did it  really don on  Ennis in the confrontation that Jack held steady about .his dream of ranching up with him. . after so many yrs. ago. That Jack had been holding on to this and never waverd from it.

. His father's homophobic teachings  come back to haunt him and he finds it hard to trust anybody, but this "thing" had him by the short hairs. There was nothing he could do with it, it just was. Nothing needed changing about it and he did'nt wanna change it. Two men really could feel they belonged together. he knew his daddy was wrong about that. Jack was both devil and angel and he was in love with both of them.

 What could he say to Jack's confession? I love you? ,I need You? ,I miss you?... Could Ennis ever look Jack in the eye and tell him these things verbally? Don't think so, it's  not his way, not even with Alma. He never said he loved her.....did'nt  mean he did'nt want to though, but in this case, he just  silently let Jack speak for both of them,

And I think your right he was transformed when he met Mrs. Twist. She instilled in Jack the qualities he loved so much in Jack, the perfect and most logical companion to his *enlightenment* at LF.  In her eyes he saw acceptance of what he thought no one could accept.  Love between him and her son. No reins?, for as long as he  could ride it.? Sweet-talker? Yeah,   Think he meant that.  But that's  the real , uncensored Ennis Jack loved so much. Ennis ,  the perfect combination  of unspoiled chrisma,  and  quiet vulnerability,  so simple, and so complex. imo,  very attractive and tempting qualities in that cowboy, . Jack, Alma and Cassie  fell for him, so did I.  A few more  rambling thoughts. Thanx.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #183 on: May 25, 2008, 10:13 AM »
Exactly Lance , he was the ultimate introvert, .. thank you,  just the word I was looking for..  He was content to be left alone  to make choices or not make choices.,and it may explain Ennis's silence after Jack's confession of not being able to stand it. Maybe to Ennis, it's understood after so many yrs. that words are  simply not needed. It's 20 yrs. later and he's still meeting Jack.  He can't say he misses Jack too, not  out loud, but it does'nt mean he's not thinking them, but he'll keep that to himself  knowing he can hardly stand it either. He's not that great with words and probably did'nt want to make an ass out of himself, even in front of Jack, ...especially not in front of Jack, but I think that's what Jack wanted ,liked and loved,  Ennis..uncensored .
[...]
And I think your right he was transformed when he met Mrs. Twist. She instilled in Jack the qualities he loved so much in Jack, the perfect and most logical companion to his *enlightenment* at LF.  In her eyes he saw acceptance of what he thought no one could accept.  Love between him and her son. No reins?, for as long as he  could ride it.? Sweet-talker? Yeah,   Think he meant that.  But that's  the real , uncensored Ennis Jack loved so much. Ennis ,  the perfect combination  of unspoiled chrisma,  and  quiet vulnerability,  so simple, and so complex. imo,  very attractive and tempting qualities in that cowboy, . Jack, Alma and Cassie  fell for him, so did I.  A few more  rambling thoughts. Thanx.

Ramble on, friend, because I love your rambling, wise and perceptive. I love what you said about what Jack wanted, Ennis...uncensored. That's Ennis jumping down the stairs; that's Ennis kissing Jack with both hands full of passion; that's Ennis in SNIT, in rapturous ecstasy; that's Ennis in the nostalgic dozy embrace. Jack loves finding the depth of Ennis, when what's hidden is released to the light. But after twenty years, Jack was tired of treading water, and wanted a rest. The final meeting was Jack knocking on the walls and doors of Fortress Ennis, and saying I am leaving if you don't open up. Instead of having make-up sex like they always did, allowing Ennis to speak with action and passion instead of words, with Ennis' arm around Jack the morning after, this time, Jack had to watch Ennis driving off, like Ennis did in the summer of '63, watching Jack drove off.

Ennis was trapped in his own fears, his own habits, childhood trauma. It took the immense grief of losing Jack, so suddenly, while filled with hope of a November renewal of their reunion sweet life, when all the emotions that filled the deep and immense dam that he built for 39 years overflows and finally set him free when he found the two shirts after meeting Jack's Ma, with her compassion and acceptance and love.

Yup. I fell for Ennis, too. Censored or not, there ain't no cowboy like THAT cowboy.  :c) <^(
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #184 on: May 25, 2008, 12:40 PM »
AF and Andrew, thank you so much for your beautiful posts.  ^f^ You have moved me deeply.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #185 on: May 27, 2008, 08:18 AM »
    Am still thinking over the possibility Ennis was, pure and simple, a loner.  The distance between him and Alma, and also Cassie, would be more understandable, this way, when you toss in Jack.  And there are a variety of lone-wolf types.  Maybe Ennis (gosh, I hate this phrase), had what is now called low self-esteem and therefore thought nobody could really LIVE with him, for a long period of time without getting tired of him.
  Even Alma was a part-time marriage, in that he was away so much.  It's just that every image of Ennis seems to support this, from Aguirre's trailer, to the marriage ceremony (he seems alone, there, too), to the road-work, to sitting in the pick-up watching a movie with Alma, to the divorce proceedings --he's always alone or lost unto himself.
  The only time he had constant companionship, then, was on the mountain, and, because of mixed signals, that seemed not to hold up, either.
Of course, if you go with a loner mentality, that undermines the repressed/shame theory when it comes to the next 20 years with Jack. I dunno.  The movie starts with Ennis  --- alone, and it ends the same way.  And maybe that's all he knew.  It's a thought, that's all.

I tend to view Ennis being a loner as more of a symptom rather than a cause.  For me, Ennis being a loner is a springboard by which we begin to ask more questions.  The repression is a part of this, IMO.

His marriage with Alma did work out reasonably well at the start, even though it was clear that Ennis was not completely happy.  Companionship was not requisite for Ennis, but I think he could have worked things out if he wanted, given his increadible stoicism.




Offline aintfoolin

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • Gender: Female
  • " You and him did'nt go up there to fish"...
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #186 on: May 27, 2008, 04:05 PM »
I tend to view Ennis being a loner as more of a symptom rather than a cause.  For me, Ennis being a loner is a springboard by which we begin to ask more questions.  The repression is a part of this, IMO.

His marriage with Alma did work out reasonably well at the start, even though it was clear that Ennis was not completely happy.  Companionship was not requisite for Ennis, but I think he could have worked things out if he wanted, given his increadible stoicism.






I agree with this, his repression, symtomatic of a loner mentality. Loners don't go expressing their innermost secrets to any one, but I feel he carried his experience of Brokeback with him during those 4 yrs apart from Jack. Where was Alma when Ennis was "wrung it out, hundreds of times" thinkn of Jack?  Where was the ryhme or reason in this marriage for Ennis. He loved the two precious girls he created with Alma, but apparently they were'nt using "precautions either. Where was the plan for the future with her? No established job prospects or any other sign that he was serious about a future with her was absent.

 Everything after the reunion scene with Jack that posed a permanant fixture of interference in the quest to see and meet with jack fell by the wayside. The mindset, and the things he said to Jack in the SS spoke to the fact that what he'd done by lettitng him go and marrying Alma was a mistake. What would Alma think if she knew Ennis thought that he was "stuck" with what he got? Not a very nice  loving way to describe a marriage . Sounds to me like there was much to be desired, mainly Jack Twist. MHO.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #187 on: May 28, 2008, 07:14 AM »


I agree with this, his repression, symtomatic of a loner mentality. Loners don't go expressing their innermost secrets to any one, but I feel he carried his experience of Brokeback with him during those 4 yrs apart from Jack. Where was Alma when Ennis was "wrung it out, hundreds of times" thinkn of Jack?  Where was the ryhme or reason in this marriage for Ennis. He loved the two precious girls he created with Alma, but apparently they were'nt using "precautions either. Where was the plan for the future with her? No established job prospects or any other sign that he was serious about a future with her was absent.

 Everything after the reunion scene with Jack that posed a permanant fixture of interference in the quest to see and meet with jack fell by the wayside. The mindset, and the things he said to Jack in the SS spoke to the fact that what he'd done by lettitng him go and marrying Alma was a mistake. What would Alma think if she knew Ennis thought that he was "stuck" with what he got? Not a very nice  loving way to describe a marriage . Sounds to me like there was much to be desired, mainly Jack Twist. MHO.

Thanks AF.  I think this partly explains the reason why Ennis was most reluctant to commit to Cassie -- perhaps because he now better understood the mistake of the first marriage.  Perhaps Jack should have understood (or did he understand?) that by Ennis's inaction to commit himself after the divorce was -- in a way -- an act of honesty.  Ennis couldn't bring himself to live with Jack, but he knew that he (Ennis) could'nt live with anybody else.  And so, as in many cases with Ennis, things were left as is -- in a state of unstable equilibrium.




Offline atalley

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 779
  • Gender: Female
  • "Jack, I swear."
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #188 on: May 29, 2008, 10:43 AM »
 :clap:  to all for such great insights and wonderful discussions! :ghug:

Offline jackster

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1517
  • Gender: Male
  • dumbass missin'
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #189 on: May 30, 2008, 04:48 AM »
It never occurred to me that the movie started and ended with Ennis...alone, . . . And once you said it, the image of Ennis, always alone, no matter where he was, who he was with, rings true to me. . . . .

You are so right that Ennis always felt apart, even dancing with Cassie on the dance floor, or making love to Alma. The only time that he really was connected with anyone was with his daughters, with Alma Jr.


Willie Nelson defined cowboys pretty good in his immortal song
"Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys"

Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys
Don't let 'em pick guitars and drive them old trucks
Make 'em be doctors and lawyers and such
Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys
They'll never stay home and they're always alone
Even with someone they love

Cowboys ain't easy to love and they're harder to hold
And they'd rather give you a song then diamonds or gold
Lonestar belt buckles and old faded Levi's each night begins a new day
And if you don't understand him and he don't die young
He'll prob'ly just ride away


Not a bad outline of our man Ennis . . .
Only thing I'd add to your thoughts Lance is that I think he "connected" with Jack too.
(In more ways than one too)
 O0
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #190 on: May 30, 2008, 07:27 AM »
:clap:  to all for such great insights and wonderful discussions! :ghug:

I agree: some wonderful thoughts in this thread.

...They'll never stay home and they're always alone
Even with someone they love...


Certainly not a bad outline of Ennis.




Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #191 on: May 31, 2008, 01:49 AM »
Willie Nelson defined cowboys pretty good in his immortal song
"Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys"

Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys
Don't let 'em pick guitars and drive them old trucks
Make 'em be doctors and lawyers and such
Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys
They'll never stay home and they're always alone
Even with someone they love

Cowboys ain't easy to love and they're harder to hold
And they'd rather give you a song then diamonds or gold
Lonestar belt buckles and old faded Levi's each night begins a new day
And if you don't understand him and he don't die young
He'll prob'ly just ride away


Not a bad outline of our man Ennis . . .
Only thing I'd add to your thoughts Lance is that I think he "connected" with Jack too.
(In more ways than one too)
 O0

Hi, Jackster, thank you for the lyrics of the beautiful song. I agree with you that Ennis connected with Jack. However, I  pointed this out below, where I bolded and highlighted the text.

[...]

You are so right that Ennis always felt apart, even dancing with Cassie on the dance floor, or making love to Alma. The only time that he really was connected with anyone was with his daughters, with Alma Jr.

There are many straight men who married, divorced, and remain single the rest of their days. Lone wolves can be straight or gay, or bi, for that matter. Labels are equal opportunity stickers.

When you got nothing, you don't need nothing. That's what Ennis thought of himself...he felt nothing inside, so there is no need to get involved with anyone. The only person who could touch his heart and make him fell alive was Jack. Once Jack was dead, there is no reason to get involve with anyone else. He could just as well  live with memories of Jack rather than living with someone else.

JMHO
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline welshwitch

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 6480
  • Gender: Female
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #192 on: Jun 01, 2008, 01:10 AM »
When Jack asks why Ennis hasn't married again - " found anyone else to marry"  (always sounds to me as if a wife is a bit like a hard-to-locate brand of cornflakes) I think he may be seeing, without being able to identify it in those terms, that Ennis is stuck at a particular point from whih he's never moved on. Alma was there before Ennis met Jack, an obligation which he fulfilled by marrying her after that first summer on the mountain. He did progressively less to keep her and when she left simply accepted it, in a fatalistic Ennis sort of way. He didn't commit to Jack even when Jack appeared having driven all that way under the misapprehension that Ennis wanted him to come,never did anything other than turn up at the pre-arranged meetings. He can't even make himself normalise his position in the Riverton community by marrying again. To me he's stuck just as he was the first time they left the mountain, not knowing what to do or say, all his preconceptions about himself and his life blown apart, in a state ( for the Joyceans among us) of Dublinesque paralysis.

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #193 on: Jun 01, 2008, 01:23 AM »
When Jack asks why Ennis hasn't married again - " found anyone else to marry"  (always sounds to me as if a wife is a bit like a hard-to-locate brand of cornflakes) I think he may be seeing, without being able to identify it in those terms, that Ennis is stuck at a particular point from whih he's never moved on. Alma was there before Ennis met Jack, an obligation which he fulfilled by marrying her after that first summer on the mountain. He did progressively less to keep her and when she left simply accepted it, in a fatalistic Ennis sort of way. He didn't commit to Jack even when Jack appeared having driven all that way under the misapprehension that Ennis wanted him to come,never did anything other than turn up at the pre-arranged meetings. He can't even make himself normalise his position in the Riverton community by marrying again. To me he's stuck just as he was the first time they left the mountain, not knowing what to do or say, all his preconceptions about himself and his life blown apart, in a state ( for the Joyceans among us) of Dublinesque paralysis.

That's a good point, that Jack was trying to tell Ennis something about himself, that he was still stuck, like Ennis said at the motel reunion...Dublinesque paralysis...making a living is all I got time for now...I'm stuck with what I have. We return to the sense of powerlessness that Ennis has accepted about himself, and the absence of which he admired in Jack.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #194 on: Jun 02, 2008, 08:09 AM »
When Jack asks why Ennis hasn't married again - " found anyone else to marry"  (always sounds to me as if a wife is a bit like a hard-to-locate brand of cornflakes) I think he may be seeing, without being able to identify it in those terms, that Ennis is stuck at a particular point from whih he's never moved on. Alma was there before Ennis met Jack, an obligation which he fulfilled by marrying her after that first summer on the mountain. He did progressively less to keep her and when she left simply accepted it, in a fatalistic Ennis sort of way. He didn't commit to Jack even when Jack appeared having driven all that way under the misapprehension that Ennis wanted him to come,never did anything other than turn up at the pre-arranged meetings. He can't even make himself normalise his position in the Riverton community by marrying again. To me he's stuck just as he was the first time they left the mountain, not knowing what to do or say, all his preconceptions about himself and his life blown apart, in a state ( for the Joyceans among us) of Dublinesque paralysis.

Very good point, WW.  Jack may very well have asked the question, because he himself recognixed, and was perhaps puzzled, that Ennis seemed to have gotten stuck in a sort of lmbo.  Perhaps he suspected that he (Jack) was somehow the cause of Ennis's hesitation, and was probing Ennis to see if he could make some headway?  I am just speculating here...

Offline myprivatejack

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 15750
  • Gender: Female
  • It could be like this,just like this...always
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #195 on: Jun 02, 2008, 08:36 AM »
Very good point, WW.  Jack may very well have asked the question, because he himself recognixed, and was perhaps puzzled, that Ennis seemed to have gotten stuck in a sort of lmbo.  Perhaps he suspected that he (Jack) was somehow the cause of Ennis's hesitation, and was probing Ennis to see if he could make some headway?  I am just speculating here...
It's more than probable that Jack,fed up as he was with the situation,wanted even to "force" somehow Ennis to making a move in their relationship.I'm sure he knew he was the cause of his lover's inaction,but this hesitation didn't traduce itself in a hope in their future,even little.It's to say,Ennis (and their relationship with him...)was struck in a kind of "impass" when he could speak with the same words of the motel scene,sixteen years before;he didn't avance neither in giving Jack a future together,or a hint of it,nor in developing a life of his own.Surely,Jack wanted to know what he could wait for,but also,I repeat,force Ennis to decide something about them.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #196 on: Jun 03, 2008, 07:20 AM »
Thanks MPJ.  I think the quarrel by the stream after dinner shown in earlier scene is a clear indication of what you say -- that Jack was always trying to find ways of "forcing" Ennis to make a move.  "Impasse" is certaionly the perfect word for the situation, because it would seem that they had reached a point of stasis where each was sort of entrenched in their own positions, and thet there was not significant movement over the years.


The question about marriage shows this, most certainly.  It was Jack's attempt to undertand the root of the current impasse between them.  Was Ennis being torn in an opposing direction by something/someone else?  Why had he remained unmarried yet remained uncommited to him (Jack)?  These were questions that Jack perhaps attempted to find answers via this probing inquiry, IMO.



Offline orangetruck

  • Justin +
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 5421
  • Gender: Male
  • Following Jack's happy trail is a trip.
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #197 on: Jun 27, 2008, 02:51 PM »
Thanks MPJ.  I think the quarrel by the stream after dinner shown in earlier scene is a clear indication of what you say -- that Jack was always trying to find ways of "forcing" Ennis to make a move.  "Impasse" is certaionly the perfect word for the situation, because it would seem that they had reached a point of stasis where each was sort of entrenched in their own positions, and thet there was not significant movement over the years.


The question about marriage shows this, most certainly.  It was Jack's attempt to undertand the root of the current impasse between them.  Was Ennis being torn in an opposing direction by something/someone else?  Why had he remained unmarried yet remained uncommited to him (Jack)?  These were questions that Jack perhaps attempted to find answers via this probing inquiry, IMO.




That was awesome. I popped in at such a good time. Thanks, Thomas. I agree, well said. :)
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #198 on: Jun 27, 2008, 02:58 PM »
Thnaks orangetruck.  I think many of us have been in Jack's shoes before...  It makes his probings more understandable.

Offline lamusica

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1874
  • Gender: Female
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #199 on: Jun 29, 2008, 03:39 PM »
Interesting discussion here, guys.  I totally agree with you about Ennis being an introvert, but as tpe says, I tend to think of it as a symptom of what made Ennis tick, rather than the reason behind his actions.  He was lonely, did want to be alone, enjoyed being alone, but knew how to let others in to some extent (Alma, Jack).  It's the definition of Jack as an extrovert that I can't get my mind around.  Sure, he laughed out loud, talked a lot, always seemed open to new situations, but did you ever see him with a friend?  He went to dinner with Lureen where he met Randall and the Mouth, but they weren't his friends.  We NEVER see him with a buddy.  He is always alone.  Same for Ennis.  I don't see them as being too different when you get right down to it.  Jack is noisier, but they both are lonely men.  Even when they are alone with one another, they weigh their words.  Neither is EVER totally open.  The closest they get to the open truth is in the last argument scene when everything just comes pouring out, and even there, Jack back-paddles with his words.  He soothes Ennis because he knows Ennis can't take the whole truth.
At least, that's my take on it.  I think their personalities are so complex and layered that, as we peel one layer off, we find another deeper, thicker layer to parse.  How can we ever figure them out when they couldn't do it themselves?
"Let's put a SSSSMILE on your faceeee!"

Offline lancecowboy

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 8476
  • Gender: Male
  • free to be, Always
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #200 on: Jun 29, 2008, 05:58 PM »
Interesting discussion here, guys.  I totally agree with you about Ennis being an introvert, but as tpe says, I tend to think of it as a symptom of what made Ennis tick, rather than the reason behind his actions.  He was lonely, did want to be alone, enjoyed being alone, but knew how to let others in to some extent (Alma, Jack).  It's the definition of Jack as an extrovert that I can't get my mind around.  Sure, he laughed out loud, talked a lot, always seemed open to new situations, but did you ever see him with a friend?  He went to dinner with Lureen where he met Randall and the Mouth, but they weren't his friends.  We NEVER see him with a buddy.  He is always alone.  Same for Ennis.  I don't see them as being too different when you get right down to it.  Jack is noisier, but they both are lonely men.  Even when they are alone with one another, they weigh their words.  Neither is EVER totally open.  The closest they get to the open truth is in the last argument scene when everything just comes pouring out, and even there, Jack back-paddles with his words.  He soothes Ennis because he knows Ennis can't take the whole truth.
At least, that's my take on it.  I think their personalities are so complex and layered that, as we peel one layer off, we find another deeper, thicker layer to parse.  How can we ever figure them out when they couldn't do it themselves?

Awesome, lamusica. I think you are onto something here. Jack is not just simply an extrovert. He is an introvert disguising as an extrovert, and getting away with it, until he met Ennis. Then the introvert in him resonated with the intervert in Ennis, and the two fitted each other, like two shirts.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #201 on: Jun 30, 2008, 08:17 AM »
Interesting discussion here, guys.  I totally agree with you about Ennis being an introvert, but as tpe says, I tend to think of it as a symptom of what made Ennis tick, rather than the reason behind his actions.  He was lonely, did want to be alone, enjoyed being alone, but knew how to let others in to some extent (Alma, Jack).  It's the definition of Jack as an extrovert that I can't get my mind around.  Sure, he laughed out loud, talked a lot, always seemed open to new situations, but did you ever see him with a friend?  He went to dinner with Lureen where he met Randall and the Mouth, but they weren't his friends.  We NEVER see him with a buddy.  He is always alone.  Same for Ennis.  I don't see them as being too different when you get right down to it.  Jack is noisier, but they both are lonely men.  Even when they are alone with one another, they weigh their words.  Neither is EVER totally open.  The closest they get to the open truth is in the last argument scene when everything just comes pouring out, and even there, Jack back-paddles with his words.  He soothes Ennis because he knows Ennis can't take the whole truth.
At least, that's my take on it.  I think their personalities are so complex and layered that, as we peel one layer off, we find another deeper, thicker layer to parse.  How can we ever figure them out when they couldn't do it themselves?

Very insightful, lamusica.  I must admit that Jack's extrovertion may be a facade -- you are correct when you point out that he was probably just as lonely as Ennis, even though he was seemingly more socially active.  Looks are deceiving, to be sure, and you are right to say that their personalities are much more complex and layered than we sometimes make them out to be, especially in the case of Jack.


Offline myprivatejack

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 15750
  • Gender: Female
  • It could be like this,just like this...always
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #202 on: Jun 30, 2008, 10:04 AM »
You have remarked such a good points here,Lamusica¡.I also agree in that both Ennis and Jack were two loners,for some familiar reasons mainly;but the difference between them lies in that,whereas Ennis closed himself to the others and let hardly nobody to "enter" into his armour,Jack used a friendly way of being to hide his loneliness.I think it was a way to like the others,to open to them and let them "enter" faster...Sometimes we open to the other people as a way to hide our innest way of being and feeling,even if it seems a contradictory phrase.What it's clear in both cases is that they were far more complex that one can see at first sight.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline Matt Nasty

  • formerly zankou1991
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 13666
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • I LOVE JAKE
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #203 on: Jun 30, 2008, 11:58 AM »
i often wonder if jacks question to ennis could have possibly been a way to make ennis more comfortable with their situation, Jack knew for all Ennis clearly loved him and wanted to be with him he didnt like the male/male relationship scenario.
maybe the question jack asks was a way to make Ennis feel more like, what he was brought up to think as "normal".
Ennis felt the obligation to be "normal" and settle down with a wife and have children etc.
maybe jack asked this question to show ennis that he still thought he was "normal". Ennis doesnt think of himself as "queer" i mean he says it and imply it multiple times through the movie probably most notalbly in "you know i aint queer" and even more significantly (IMO) when he says to jack "boys like you".
maybe on some level the qeustion was jacks reasurence to Ennis that he didnt think Ennis was "queer".

i mean i dont think this would be the only reason im not even sure it was present as a reason im just brainstorming here lol, how ever i do think posssibly it may have been a factor in jack asking the question even if it was far less promintant then other theories suggested, anyway thanks for reading :)

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #204 on: Jun 30, 2008, 02:31 PM »
Some brokie said over LJ that maybe Jack was trying to prove a point here; that maybe he wanted Ennis to see that the answer for that question is so clear: he didn't marry again because he didn't like women, or well, because he loved Jack, he only wanted Jack  and he only wanted to "be" with Jack. Maybe Jack wanted Ennis to realize that he never got married again because he felt that he'd never be happy with another woman, with another person, just only with him. Or maybe he only wanted to prove Ennis that he was indeed gay, no matter what he said all those years...He didn't marry because he liked boys; period.

Well, those are some brokie opinions, and I just wanted to share them with you.  ^f^

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #205 on: Jul 01, 2008, 07:42 AM »
i often wonder if jacks question to ennis could have possibly been a way to make ennis more comfortable with their situation, Jack knew for all Ennis clearly loved him and wanted to be with him he didnt like the male/male relationship scenario.
maybe the question jack asks was a way to make Ennis feel more like, what he was brought up to think as "normal".
Ennis felt the obligation to be "normal" and settle down with a wife and have children etc.
maybe jack asked this question to show ennis that he still thought he was "normal". Ennis doesnt think of himself as "queer" i mean he says it and imply it multiple times through the movie probably most notalbly in "you know i aint queer" and even more significantly (IMO) when he says to jack "boys like you".
maybe on some level the qeustion was jacks reasurence to Ennis that he didnt think Ennis was "queer".

i mean i dont think this would be the only reason im not even sure it was present as a reason im just brainstorming here lol, how ever i do think posssibly it may have been a factor in jack asking the question even if it was far less promintant then other theories suggested, anyway thanks for reading :)

Very good point, Matt.  It is probable that he may have brought this up partly to reassure Ennis, as you say here.  I had not exactly thought about it in these terms, but I there there is more to what you say here than meets the eye...


Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #206 on: Jul 01, 2008, 07:47 AM »
Some brokie said over LJ that maybe Jack was trying to prove a point here; that maybe he wanted Ennis to see that the answer for that question is so clear: he didn't marry again because he didn't like women, or well, because he loved Jack, he only wanted Jack  and he only wanted to "be" with Jack. Maybe Jack wanted Ennis to realize that he never got married again because he felt that he'd never be happy with another woman, with another person, just only with him. Or maybe he only wanted to prove Ennis that he was indeed gay, no matter what he said all those years...He didn't marry because he liked boys; period.

Well, those are some brokie opinions, and I just wanted to share them with you.  ^f^

And a wonderful point of view this is, Tammy.  I do like it -- love it.  Even if one chooses to disagree with this, one can't deny that it is quite probable -- that it may have been part of why Jack asked the question, or even perhaps a big part of his motivation.


babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #207 on: Jul 01, 2008, 01:58 PM »
Thank you, Thomas. ^f^  I like it too.

Offline lamusica

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1874
  • Gender: Female
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #208 on: Jul 01, 2008, 04:12 PM »
Awesome, lamusica. I think you are onto something here. Jack is not just simply an extrovert. He is an introvert disguising as an extrovert, and getting away with it, until he met Ennis. Then the introvert in him resonated with the intervert in Ennis, and the two fitted each other, like two shirts.



You summarized what I was saying beautifully, lance. Maybe we all are the same deep down, but just manifest ourselves differently.
     I think Jack asked Ennis this question because deep down, he wanted to know if anyone else was in Ennis's life, man or woman.  Since he hadn't married yet, did that mean he didn't want another woman, or did that mean he was done with women and was waiting for a man, OR, did it mean, MAYBE, Ennis was now ready to make Jack a permanent part of his life?  We all know what Jack wanted, but he wasn't going to ask for Ennis again; he'd been rejected too many times in the past.  But, since Ennis hadn't remarried, there was the possibility that he was now open to making their relationship more like what Jack wanted -- to live together, ranched up by his daddy's place.  I think he asked the question to clarify just where he stood with Ennis these days.
"Let's put a SSSSMILE on your faceeee!"

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #209 on: Jul 01, 2008, 04:53 PM »
You summarized what I was saying beautifully, lance. Maybe we all are the same deep down, but just manifest ourselves differently.
     I think Jack asked Ennis this question because deep down, he wanted to know if anyone else was in Ennis's life, man or woman.  Since he hadn't married yet, did that mean he didn't want another woman, or did that mean he was done with women and was waiting for a man, OR, did it mean, MAYBE, Ennis was now ready to make Jack a permanent part of his life?  We all know what Jack wanted, but he wasn't going to ask for Ennis again; he'd been rejected too many times in the past.  But, since Ennis hadn't remarried, there was the possibility that he was now open to making their relationship more like what Jack wanted -- to live together, ranched up by his daddy's place.  I think he asked the question to clarify just where he stood with Ennis these days.

Love your post, amiga. Thank you.  ^f^