Topic: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"

[aintfoolin]

You summarized what I was saying beautifully, lance. Maybe we all are the same deep down, but just manifest ourselves differently.
     I think Jack asked Ennis this question because deep down, he wanted to know if anyone else was in Ennis's life, man or woman.  Since he hadn't married yet, did that mean he didn't want another woman, or did that mean he was done with women and was waiting for a man, OR, did it mean, MAYBE, Ennis was now ready to make Jack a permanent part of his life?  We all know what Jack wanted, but he wasn't going to ask for Ennis again; he'd been rejected too many times in the past.  But, since Ennis hadn't remarried, there was the possibility that he was now open to making their relationship more like what Jack wanted -- to live together, ranched up by his daddy's place.  I think he asked the question to clarify just where he stood with Ennis these days.

 And this best sums up what I feel was the reason Jack would ask Ennis this question. Did Ennis find someone else.? Was he still the only one? Surely after all this time, Ennis has at least been approached or propositioned by someone, could it be one reason why Ennis has'nt considered his idea. I agree whole heartedly with your last sentence lamusica, that Jack wanted to know where he stood with Ennis after so many yrs.

[manhattangirl]

Or could it be guilt?  Jack by this time must have been in a full blown affair with Ranall.   Ennis's statement "all those things I don't know".  Seems to me that he must have suspected something.  If it was just seeking prostitutes OK, that distressing enough, but to think that there's one particular person, that's something you really don't want to know about, but you would warn against, like Ennis warns Jack. 

Jack's "what do you want from me" attitude added fuel to fire, his foul mood the day after his questioning Ennis wasn't enough for him, and again Ennis seem to be putting distant between them by pushing back the date of the next meeting.     

I think Jack might suspect he was being punish for even wanting to be with Ennis.  Ennis seem to think tightening that leash on Jack was keeping him close to him.   JMO.

[aintfoolin]

Or could it be guilt?  Jack by this time must have been in a full blown affair with Ranall.   Ennis's statement "all those things I don't know".  Seems to me that he must have suspected something.  If it was just seeking prostitutes OK, that distressing enough, but to think that there's one particular person, that's something you really don't want to know about, but you would warn against, like Ennis warns Jack. 

Jack's "what do you want from me" attitude added fuel to fire, his foul mood the day after his questioning Ennis wasn't enough for him, and again Ennis seem to be putting distant between them by pushing back the date of the next meeting.     

I think Jack might suspect he was being punish for even wanting to be with Ennis.  Ennis seem to think tightening that leash on Jack was keeping him close to him.   JMO

Could be guilt yes, he was involved with Randall at the time, but perhaps Jack felt threatened by the fact that Ennis was out there footloose and fancy free. Vulnerable to men or women while he is still trapped in a stifling marriage to Lureen.  Ennis was'nt committing to him, and Ennis could hook up with anyone he wanted, ...there is a waitress named Cassie, who has talked about a future  endeavours (nursing school) with Ennis. Ennis never let on to Jack that he had *several dates* with her , at least one involving his child, (Alma Jr.)or that he had slept with her. This could be percieved to Jack as some one vying for his man's affections. Who was she? how'd he meet her? how serious was she? . All these questions may have crossed Jack's mind. Perhaps Jack was jealous himself.
 Cassie was in love with Ennis, unlike Jack's affairs outside their own relationship.  Did Jack love Randall? hmmm to me  only mere substitutes for Ennis's physical  absences and Jack
's living in Childress. IMO, she was as much of a threat to Jack as Randall was to Ennis. He was sleeping with Randall yes, but not at the expense of loosing Ennis  forever to some waitress, just as 10 Cassies' would'nt equal the worth of one Jack Twist to Ennis.  Niether one of these guys went out in search of Cassie and Randall . Both of these people sought Jack and Ennis out. They were both vulnerable to *outsiders* because they were not together enough. Jack was right " Never enough time, "never enough". Just another way of looking at it In  MO , Thanx.

[tpe]

Or could it be guilt?  Jack by this time must have been in a full blown affair with Ranall.   Ennis's statement "all those things I don't know".  Seems to me that he must have suspected something.  If it was just seeking prostitutes OK, that distressing enough, but to think that there's one particular person, that's something you really don't want to know about, but you would warn against, like Ennis warns Jack. 

Jack's "what do you want from me" attitude added fuel to fire, his foul mood the day after his questioning Ennis wasn't enough for him, and again Ennis seem to be putting distant between them by pushing back the date of the next meeting.     

I think Jack might suspect he was being punish for even wanting to be with Ennis.  Ennis seem to think tightening that leash on Jack was keeping him close to him.   JMO.

Hmmm...  I say: definitely, MG.  It could very well involve an admixture of guilt.  And I do think that Ennis did read between the lines as far as what Jack told him in this scene and in the Final Confrontation.  Jack indeed did seem unusually confessional in this scene, and bringing up the affair with the texas neighbor's wife is certainly very confessional in nature, IMO.  Guilt certainly played a role here, IMO.

[smartestsonia]

I feel Jack that wanted to know if there is anyone in Ennis life..he wanted to be with Ennis and wanted him to be with no other woman or man but him....although he casually asked him about a woman but would not stand or even bear the thought that Ennis would be interested in another man.....no way

Tell me about it.  Here is where I don't know, the word "irony" comes in to play.  Anyway,  I've alway thought Jack had the perfect right to ask that question.  When Jack said "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."   What was Ennis response?  He said nothing, as if he knew what that would lead to.  Ennis was being very careful. 

I completey agree with this...Ennis dint want to repy as it would get too emotional for the 2 to handle

[tpe]

I feel Jack that wanted to know if there is anyone in Ennis life..he wanted to be with Ennis and wanted him to be with no other woman or man but him....although he casually asked him about a woman but would not stand or even bear the thought that Ennis would be interested in another man.....no way

I completey agree with this...Ennis dint want to repy as it would get too emotional for the 2 to handle

Thanks for sharing your POV, smartestsonia.  So like some of the others in this discussion, you do sense a thread of jealousy in Jack when he started asking Ennis about marrying and all? 

[smartestsonia]

Thanks for sharing your POV, smartestsonia.  So like some of the others in this discussion, you do sense a thread of jealousy in Jack when he started asking Ennis about marrying and all? 

He wanted to make sure that there is no one else in Ennis life..now he wanted to ask this question casually so that there is no scene created..so he casually asked..now he would be crazy jelous and hurt if Ennis would be with another man..he never wanted someone else to share what they have...so the most appropriate way to ask is that if he has another woman in his life as Jack would be too scared and hurt to even think that there could be another man...he would ofcourse be jealous even if a woman would be there ..although another man would make it worse...

He just wanted Ennis and nothing else ...Ennis was only his...

[pattyjean]

Marriage for Jack or Ennis was never a jealousy issue for either of them:  Their FOREVER love was not in any way threatened by a wife or a new woman.  Sort of like a woman having an affair with a married man:  As long as he only has sex with her and his wife, everything is just fine.  But bring on another woman and all hell breaks loose!  Jack was OK with Ennis "putting the blocks to" Cassie, but he may have asked the question just to see if Ennis would proclaim his undying love for Jack alone...

[tpe]

I think both of them understoodd that there was a risk of not appearing normal, and each understood that marriage might have been a necessary cover.  But Jack, I think, understood that marriage would always be a wedge to their plans for a sweet life.  So he must have wondered whether Ennis staying single hinted that he was half-considering the possibility, and that this in and of itself, caused Ennis to take pause.

[smartestsonia]

Jack still needed to be sure what was on Ennis mind..whether there is a slightest chance for Ennis and jack to live togetehr..if he gets married to someone else then there is no way they can live together or spend more time together...
he was also curious of what the future can be like so he asked that qs...

[myprivatejack]

I think both of them understoodd that there was a risk of not appearing normal, and each understood that marriage might have been a necessary cover.  But Jack, I think, understood that marriage would always be a wedge to their plans for a sweet life.  So he must have wondered whether Ennis staying single hinted that he was half-considering the possibility, and that this in and of itself, caused Ennis to take pause.

Jack still needed to be sure what was on Ennis mind..whether there is a slightest chance for Ennis and jack to live togetehr..if he gets married to someone else then there is no way they can live together or spend more time together...he was also curious of what the future can be like so he asked that qs...

I've always thought that there's a mixture of thoughts and sensations behind this question on the part of Jack:yes,he knew that a marriage had been the perfect cover for not appearing "weird" in front of this little and narrow-minded community.But,at the same time,he knew that this marriage had been an step back in his aspiration to share with Ennis something more than furtive moments they could rob every several months.What's more,according to how the new wife was,even these few days could be more difficult to spend...
Also he could be simply curious about how a person like Ennis,so afraid about what people could say,could risk himself on being object of gossips by his singleness.And,on a deeper stage,if in this denial on getting married,he(Jack) had something to do with;as a matter of fact,he needed to know-as you ,Smartestsonia,say very well-what was passing on Ennis mind,what he was thinking about the both of them for the future.
With a little of jealousy also behind the question,because,on one hand,Ennis wanted to remain single for not running away from his love;but,on the other hand,maybe Jack was afraid that not having a life together after so many years and being Ennis single,was because this last was beginning to be tired of the situation or(why not?) of Jack himself.I repeat,it's a mixture of feelings:curiosity,fear,illusion,jealousy,hope,...After all,Jack had to learn to be a very complex person because of the situation along the years.

[tpe]

Jack still needed to be sure what was on Ennis mind..whether there is a slightest chance for Ennis and jack to live togetehr..if he gets married to someone else then there is no way they can live together or spend more time together...
he was also curious of what the future can be like so he asked that qs...

I've always thought that there's a mixture of thoughts and sensations behind this question on the part of Jack:yes,he knew that a marriage had been the perfect cover for not appearing "weird" in front of this little and narrow-minded community.But,at the same time,he knew that this marriage had been an step back in his aspiration to share with Ennis something more than furtive moments they could rob every several months.What's more,according to how the new wife was,even these few days could be more difficult to spend...
Also he could be simply curious about how a person like Ennis,so afraid about what people could say,could risk himself on being object of gossips by his singleness.And,on a deeper stage,if in this denial on getting married,he(Jack) had something to do with;as a matter of fact,he needed to know-as you ,Smartestsonia,say very well-what was passing on Ennis mind,what he was thinking about the both of them for the future.
With a little of jealousy also behind the question,because,on one hand,Ennis wanted to remain single for not running away from his love;but,on the other hand,maybe Jack was afraid that not having a life together after so many years and being Ennis single,was because this last was beginning to be tired of the situation or(why not?) of Jack himself.I repeat,it's a mixture of feelings:curiosity,fear,illusion,jealousy,hope,...After all,Jack had to learn to be a very complex person because of the situation along the years.

Both of you say it here so wonderfully.  Yes, I think there are multiple motivations behind Jack's probing question about marriage.  He certaionly must have had very mixed feelings about this, given that Ennis had originally refused the proposal of a sweet life because of his marriage to Alma and the need to care for his family.

It is the jealousy part that intrigues me.  Sometimes, we just have to know, don't we?  Even if some things can hurt us, we feel the compulsion to know the truth.  And yet, sometimes, we forget that there is no simple truth to answer a seemingly simple question...

[smartestsonia]

Both of you say it here so wonderfully.  Yes, I think there are multiple motivations behind Jack's probing question about marriage.  He certaionly must have had very mixed feelings about this, given that Ennis had originally refused the proposal of a sweet life because of his marriage to Alma and the need to care for his family.

It is the jealousy part that intrigues me.  Sometimes, we just have to know, don't we?  Even if some things can hurt us, we feel the compulsion to know the truth.  And yet, sometimes, we forget that there is no simple truth to answer a seemingly simple question...

true..he just wanted to know the truth..it must have hurt Jack so much when Ennis refused to live a life with him...and now he wanted to know if it is possible ...a part of him must have been so scared of rejection..but he was like.."i need to know what can happen",,,being in love can be hurting but cannot be denied...

he must be jealous when Ennis would live with Alma and not with him and he was happy (I feel) when Ennis divorced Alma..the happiness came with the hope of living with Ennis...this qs. was very appropriate to know of his hopes could actually become a reality...

[lancecowboy]

true..he just wanted to know the truth..it must have hurt Jack so much when Ennis refused to live a life with him...and now he wanted to know if it is possible ...a part of him must have been so scared of rejection..but he was like.."i need to know what can happen",,,being in love can be hurting but cannot be denied...

he must be jealous when Ennis would live with Alma and not with him and he was happy (I feel) when Ennis divorced Alma..the happiness came with the hope of living with Ennis...this qs. was very appropriate to know of his hopes could actually become a reality...

I never thought much about Jack, being Ennis obsessed that I am. You bring up a good point. After the divorce scene, Jack was so devastated that the rejection drove him all the way to Mexico. It's hard to imagine if he could get up the courage to ask Ennis again, to propose the sweet life. But hope springs eternal and perhaps that is why he still drives 14 hours each way two three times a year.

Finding somebody to marry .... was perhaps his oblique way of approaching the subject to see how Ennis would react. When he went on this tirade about the cute little waitress, Jack's jealous almost made him tell about Randall. It might have been better if he did, then they would have the night to work out what to do about it. But instead, he went on about the wife, and Ennis just made fun of it.

It's really tragic that they never were able to talk openly about the most important thing in their lives.

[myprivatejack]

I never thought much about Jack, being Ennis obsessed that I am. You bring up a good point. After the divorce scene, Jack was so devastated that the rejection drove him all the way to Mexico. It's hard to imagine if he could get up the courage to ask Ennis again, to propose the sweet life. But hope springs eternal and perhaps that is why he still drives 14 hours each way two three times a year.

Finding somebody to marry .... was perhaps his oblique way of approaching the subject to see how Ennis would react. When he went on this tirade about the cute little waitress, Jack's jealous almost made him tell about Randall. It might have been better if he did, then they would have the night to work out what to do about it. But instead, he went on about the wife, and Ennis just made fun of it.

It's really tragic that they never were able to talk openly about the most important thing in their lives.

Yes,you're right too...But,as I said in another thread,sometimes is difficult to hear the truth when you're not prepared.Both of them had preferred to speak using double meaning,shy hints,half-truths in sum,more than having a real communication.A real verbal communication,not only all the kind of other communications they surely had and that worked fine.Too many fears,doubts and denials between them...

[lancecowboy]

Yes,you're right too...But,as I said in another thread,sometimes is difficult to hear the truth when you're not prepared.Both of them had preferred to speak using double meaning,shy hints,half-truths in sum,more than having a real communication.A real verbal communication,not only all the kind of other communications they surely had and that worked fine.Too many fears,doubts and denials between them...

yup. too many fears, doubts and denials...

Love is the courage to overcome the fears, like Jack did in FNIT.

Love is the faith to wipe away the doubts, like Ennis sitting by the fire before SNIT.

Love is the honesty to face down the denials, like Cassie in the diner with Ennis.

[tpe]

true..he just wanted to know the truth..it must have hurt Jack so much when Ennis refused to live a life with him...and now he wanted to know if it is possible ...a part of him must have been so scared of rejection..but he was like.."i need to know what can happen",,,being in love can be hurting but cannot be denied...

he must be jealous when Ennis would live with Alma and not with him and he was happy (I feel) when Ennis divorced Alma..the happiness came with the hope of living with Ennis...this qs. was very appropriate to know of his hopes could actually become a reality...

I had wondered if Jack would have been "content" had Ennis agreed to the same multiple meetings every year -- without diminishing the number.  My feeling is that Jack would have remained dissatisfied, since it was probably in his mind that he could inevitably convince Ennis to move in with him. 

[atalley]

I certainly don't think he would have been happy about it, but would tell himself "I'll take any time I can get".

[smartestsonia]

I had wondered if Jack would have been "content" had Ennis agreed to the same multiple meetings every year -- without diminishing the number.  My feeling is that Jack would have remained dissatisfied, since it was probably in his mind that he could inevitably convince Ennis to move in with him. 

I think he wanted to be with Ennis all the time..that was his wish..however, he knew the fears that Ennis was living in..so he would try to spend as much as time that Ennis could be with him and make the most of it...he would convince himself....although he would always want to be only with Ennis...that was his dream....

[tpe]

Personally, I had always thought that Jack was just biding his time -- waiting for an opportunity when he could finally convince Ennis to live with him.  The post-divorce fiasco is very revealing -- Jack had assumed that since Alma was no longer Ennis's wife, then there would be no impediment to their living together.  He realized however that the impediments went deeper than that.  I think this incident has a great deal to say about jack's later question to Ennis about not getting married, don't you think?

[myprivatejack]

Personally, I had always thought that Jack was just biding his time -- waiting for an opportunity when he could finally convince Ennis to live with him.  The post-divorce fiasco is very revealing -- Jack had assumed that since Alma was no longer Ennis's wife, then there would be no impediment to their living together.  He realized however that the impediments went deeper than that.  I think this incident has a great deal to say about jack's later question to Ennis about not getting married, don't you think?

I deeply agree,Thomas.It's sure that incident was in Jack's mind when asking this; he didn't want to repeat this mistake and be sure of what he could hope about Ennis position.

[smartestsonia]

Personally, I had always thought that Jack was just biding his time -- waiting for an opportunity when he could finally convince Ennis to live with him.  The post-divorce fiasco is very revealing -- Jack had assumed that since Alma was no longer Ennis's wife, then there would be no impediment to their living together.  He realized however that the impediments went deeper than that.  I think this incident has a great deal to say about jack's later question to Ennis about not getting married, don't you think?

ya I think so too...I mean for Jack the divorce of Ennis was a hope for them to live together...later when he asked Ennis that qs. he did have in mind that Ennis has no one else in his life and he is divorced...so there could be a slightest possiblty for them to be together...Jack always hoped that...

[tpe]

Thanks myprivatejack and smartestsonia!

Like what MPJ has said, I feel that Jack was being cautious when he asked the question the night before the last confrontation.  He didn't want to get burned a second time -- he didn't want to make the same mistake.

And as smartestsonia noted doen, I think it was also a cautious testing of the waters -- Jack always trying to find an opening to the possibility of living his dream of a sweet life.  But it was no longer as open as the previous ones.  It was a more subtle probing.

[smartestsonia]

Thanks myprivatejack and smartestsonia!

Like what MPJ has said, I feel that Jack was being cautious when he asked the question the night before the last confrontation.  He didn't want to get burned a second time -- he didn't want to make the same mistake.

And as smartestsonia noted doen, I think it was also a cautious testing of the waters -- Jack always trying to find an opening to the possibility of living his dream of a sweet life.  But it was no longer as open as the previous ones.  It was a more subtle probing.

ya the probing had to be subtle else it would freak out Ennis...Jack knew Ennis too well so he had to ask it in a very casual manner...

[tpe]

Especially about marriage -- Ennis was especially touchy about this.  Observe for example how he mocked Jack when he suggested that Ennis move out of Riverton.  Then again, Ennis knew EXACTLY what was on jack's mind -- and had no patience for it.  prhaps Ennis was being realistic?  Or was he just plain stubborn?  Perhaps both...

[atalley]

Yeah, I think he was both realistic and stubborn.  Also, he was terrified of the tire iron.

[myprivatejack]

Yeah, I think he was both realistic and stubborn.  Also, he was terrified of the tire iron.

I quote this too.And I'd add that,as you have remarked,Thomas,Ennis knew almost always what was on Jack's mind,and almost always too,more than Jack knew what was on Ennis mind and his own mind even.

[tpe]

Thanks atalley and MPJ.

MPJ: the maxim "Know thyself" is not always a simple and straightforward thing, no?  Sometimes we don't know how much we know, or at least not realize that we had known something all along...

atalley: it is chillingly true -- the tire iron was never far from his thoughts.  More so than marriage, or the pretense of it.

 

[smartestsonia]

I never thought much about Jack, being Ennis obsessed that I am. You bring up a good point. After the divorce scene, Jack was so devastated that the rejection drove him all the way to Mexico. It's hard to imagine if he could get up the courage to ask Ennis again, to propose the sweet life. But hope springs eternal and perhaps that is why he still drives 14 hours each way two three times a year.

Finding somebody to marry .... was perhaps his oblique way of approaching the subject to see how Ennis would react. When he went on this tirade about the cute little waitress, Jack's jealous almost made him tell about Randall. It might have been better if he did, then they would have the night to work out what to do about it. But instead, he went on about the wife, and Ennis just made fun of it.

It's really tragic that they never were able to talk openly about the most important thing in their lives.

so true....they did not bring the important issues up..probably due to lack of time that they spent together that they wanted to just be close to each other and not make the situation depressing by bring up the topic or they feared that it could lead to a huge fight and eventually be seperated for a lifetime..I feel that, that fear was also there...so Jack asking Ennis about of why he dint find anyone to marry was a safe way of probing without creating a tense atmosphere

[manhattangirl]

If this shows anything it shows that both, Jack and Ennis had the knack of avoiding painful issues.  Remember Ennis was afraid to tell Jack that he had to change the date of the next meeting, and he held on that piece of news for a week. 

It's amazing how they avoided direct issues that would cause them to sit and speak about this "thing".  They will talk about wives, kids, the freakin' weather.  But they never discuss themselves as a unit, connected, as one half of a whole heart.  JMO.