Topic: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"

[aintfoolin]

Has anyone thought that there may have been a bit of sarcasm from Jack asking Ennis this question? Just a bit of anger. Perhaps even a dig at Ennis for choosing to marry Alma over him post-Brokeback in Signal, when he knew  good and well,deep down ,his heart already belonged to Jack?  Anger and frustration ,that after all that time, Ennis is still refusing to acknowledge the honest truth. Calling Ennis out on  what was the mistake he and Ennis knew in marrying Alma in "63",? That Jack knew or sensed  way back then ,that the marriage  to any woman would'nt work? After all, it was he who sent the first postcard  during his own screwed up marriage ( of which he'd had enough) knowing full well that Ennis may be married  to Alma, settled ,and unwilling to rekindle Brokeback? Then being turned down again by Ennis post-divorce. Perhaps Jack knows Ennis, better  than Ennis knows himself.

He knew all along that what happened with himself  personally, and especially with Ennis on Brokeback was not just just some passing fancy about two friends who had some slight crush and acted on it for a few months, he knew something changed Ennis from the reluctant cowboy, he met one day in Aguirre's trailor.  A mutual * meeting of the minds* in SNIT that something profound had happened to both of them that changed them forever. Many yrs. later, Ennis is still unmarried , unwilling to make such a mistake twice, yet refusing to ranch up with him. perhaps Jack thinking on account of him, Ennis cannot love  anyone else , man or woman that way ever again. Maybe after 20 yrs. he still holds out for hope that Ennis will come to his senses and see that he might as well ranch up together, for that is the only way Ennis will be truly happy... fearful and cautious, but happy.

I agree with all the above posts that Jack was indeed probing to find where he stood. He had to ask for the many different reasons posted, finally he just says he can hardly stand living apart from Ennis, but is met with silence, though I feel he knows by now what Ennis's problems are. Ennis fears what Jack represents about  who he  feels he  is himself, and Jack knows there's no way out of loving Ennis despite it. Thanx

[rimasworld]

Has anyone thought that there may have been a bit of sarcasm from Jack asking Ennis this question? Just a bit of anger. Perhaps even a dig at Ennis for choosing to marry Alma over him post-Brokeback in Signal, when he knew  good and well,deep down ,his heart already belonged to Jack?  Anger and frustration ,that after all that time, Ennis is still refusing to acknowledge the honest truth. Calling Ennis out on  what was the mistake he and Ennis knew in marrying Alma in "63",? That Jack knew or sensed  way back then ,that the marriage  to any woman would'nt work? After all, it was he who sent the first postcard  during his own screwed up marriage ( of which he'd had enough) knowing full well that Ennis may be married  to Alma, settled ,and unwilling to rekindle Brokeback? Then being turned down again by Ennis post-divorce. Perhaps Jack knows Ennis, better  than Ennis knows himself.

He knew all along that what happened with himself  personally, and especially with Ennis on Brokeback was not just just some passing fancy about two friends who had some slight crush and acted on it for a few months, he knew something changed Ennis from the reluctant cowboy, he met one day in Aguirre's trailor.  A mutual * meeting of the minds* in SNIT that something profound had happened to both of them that changed them forever. Many yrs. later, Ennis is still unmarried , unwilling to make such a mistake twice, yet refusing to ranch up with him. perhaps Jack thinking on account of him, Ennis cannot love  anyone else , man or woman that way ever again. Maybe after 20 yrs. he still holds out for hope that Ennis will come to his senses and see that he might as well ranch up together, for that is the only way Ennis will be truly happy... fearful and cautious, but happy.

I agree with all the above posts that Jack was indeed probing to find where he stood. He had to ask for the many different reasons posted, finally he just says he can hardly stand living apart from Ennis, but is met with silence, though I feel he knows by now what Ennis's problems are. Ennis fears what Jack represents about  who he  feels he  is himself, and Jack knows there's no way out of loving Ennis despite it. Thanx

I always kind of felt that way too that the question wasn't about women at all or marriage, like you say Jack was calling Ennis out about THEIR relationship and Jack had gotten cynical after many years of waiting and being turned down especially after Ennis got divorced. The vague question might have been too vague for Ennis to comprehend (maybe not though because I feel Ennis understood a lot more than he expressed and could read Jack pretty well) but when Ennis started talking about Cassie and asking Jack about women, then Jack had to finally come out with the "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" line. I think Ennis knew what was being expressed by Jack but didn't know how to put his own feelings into words so he just kept quiet.

[smartestsonia]

I always kind of felt that way too that the question wasn't about women at all or marriage, like you say Jack was calling Ennis out about THEIR relationship and Jack had gotten cynical after many years of waiting and being turned down especially after Ennis got divorced. The vague question might have been too vague for Ennis to comprehend (maybe not though because I feel Ennis understood a lot more than he expressed and could read Jack pretty well) but when Ennis started talking about Cassie and asking Jack about women, then Jack had to finally come out with the "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" line. I think Ennis knew what was being expressed by Jack but didn't know how to put his own feelings into words so he just kept quiet.

exactly...thats why he dint say anything after Jack told him that "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" line..he knew that it would lead to an outbreak of all the repressed emotions and he just felt that he was not prepared for it...Jack had so many hidden intentions in his mind when he asked ennis if he had found someone to marry and all..itwas a mixture of frustration and sarcasm..all other conflicting emotions of love, hurt, denial...he knew that both were living incomplete lives...he had so much hurt in his heart that Ennis chose a life with alma over him..although he never gave up on his dream to live with ennis..he thought that Ennis was just not prepared to live together and Ennis was not..so the ideal way was to bring up the topic of what ennis is actually upto....the anwer was dam casual on Ennis behalf..Jack did not bring up the topic of Mexico...he knew that it would drive Ennis over the edge...so they spoke about all light stuff...finally Jack told Ennis  I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"...so that is the bottom line above all ..... Jack did say in a way what he wanted to and Ennis felt the pain and love but stopped at that..the fears were too much in him to go ahead on that  :\'(

[atalley]

Good points.  It's a little difficult to figure out exactly what Ennis was thinking at this time (after "sometimes...I can hardly stand it").  Maybe the look of defeat?  I'm not 100% sure on this one.

[smartestsonia]

Good points.  It's a little difficult to figure out exactly what Ennis was thinking at this time (after "sometimes...I can hardly stand it").  Maybe the look of defeat?  I'm not 100% sure on this one.

well i feel Jack has alot of regret that he really wanted to live with Ennis and his dream dint come true..so alot of regret of where life has got them..once in a while meeting up and long periods of seperation..along with that there is so much of love and affection for each other...thats what the line "I miss u so much i can hardly stand it" means according to me...
as for Ennis i felt after he heard the above lines a part of him did wanted to goto jack and embrace him and reciprocate and tell him how hard it is for him and how much he misses him too..but i feel the fear of losing control and not being able to stand his own emotions stopped him from going further...this is seen in many instances of the fim with Ennis where he does not want to spend more time with Jack as he fears of the society as well as what his family will think...for Ennis it is a mixture of love, resistence as well as fear

[tpe]

I also find it difficult to read Ennis at that moment.  Certainly, part of it must have been a silent acknowledgement to Jack that it was the same with him.  But I also think that part of it was a degree of unease -- an unease of Jack sort of crossing an invisible line and admitting things (such as vulnerability) that Ennis would think is best left unsaid.  If there is a word to describe Ennis at that moment, it is probably "conflicted."

[babytammy7]

I also find it difficult to read Ennis at that moment.  Certainly, part of it must have been a silent acknowledgement to Jack that it was the same with him.  But I also think that part of it was a degree of unease -- an unease of Jack sort of crossing an invisible line and admitting things (such as vulnerability) that Ennis would think is best left unsaid.  If there is a word to describe Ennis at that moment, it is probably "conflicted."

I agree with this, Thomas. 

[tpe]

Thanks Tammy.

I must admit that I find this particular exchange between Jack and Ennis (the night before the final confrontation, I would assume) to be especially rich in so many levels of meaning.  The key to their misunderstanding and -- yes -- their love for each other can be read in this one little scene that is so full of indirection and implied meanings...

[atalley]

They probably had been feeling the effects of the pot and the , also.

[smartestsonia]

well when Jack asked Ennnis the qs that he dint find anyone to marry there were implied meanings to it like is there someone in Ennis life or can he move on..that night he expressed to Ennis what he felt for him..Ennis on the other hand obviuosly felt the same and he was like lets keep it unsaid as if said it can be too painful to deal with...He dint do that intentionally..thats how Ennis was. Ennis is one of those people who could not use words too much.However if Ennis would have opened up that night the story would have taken a different mode in which there would be more solace as Jack would atleast have the satisfaction that finally Ennis through words or even through hugs or caress at that moment could emote what he wanted to....as that was kinda absent from Ennis at that time and the fact that Ennis would not be meeting him so often lead to the final confrontataion which left both of them so much pain and suffering

[aintfoolin]

Awhile back I went on a major rant about the communication ..or lack thereof between these two. ...Well..here I go again. After twenty years of secret love ( shared ,and all the sacrifices, both taking the same risk to be together, all the mutual understanding of why they had to hide, you would think that they could talk this out at least with each other. IMO it's the one major factor that limited them in the relationship. Ennis is still wound up tighter than a rubberband ball, and Jack has to to be a mindreading , wishful thinker. No, Ennis was'nt great with words, but neither was Jack, but some one should have been able to get their message across loud and clear without having to resort to what happen in the confrontation scenes. Could either of them read between each other's lines and just say it, whatever it may be?.  Once again, poor Jack is pouring his heart out about how much he needs Ennis and goes further in saying he can "hardly stand it" anymore and what does he get? A coy smile and silence. At least he has taken the intiative, leaving Ennis an opening as wide as the Grand Canyon!.  Then during the conversation leading up to the confrontation, Ennis is trying to explain his responsibilities to Jack, and Jack thinks Ennis is playing games,  or playing him. Both of them carry underlying anger about the roles they play within the relationship, but keep it hidden, until it explodes in a series of accusations and frustrating blame. Had they been able to communicate earlier and often , their relationship would have made better sense to both of them. They should  know after 20 yrs neither was going to judge the other  no matter what they did or said right? or wrong?
Another rant over!!... Thanx

They probably had been feeling the effects of the pot and the , also.

 Well, it gets pretty cold up in the mountais at night, ..perhaps some herb and a few sips of Old Rose had a "warming" effect later that night. ;)In any case that practice would make any one  feel melancholy and reminiscent about the past, present or future of one's life.

[smartestsonia]

Awhile back I went on a major rant about the communication ..or lack thereof between these two. ...Well..here I go again. After twenty years of secret love ( shared ,and all the sacrifices, both taking the same risk to be together, all the mutual understanding of why they had to hide, you would think that they could talk this out at least with each other. IMO it's the one major factor that limited them in the relationship. Ennis is still wound up tighter than a rubberband ball, and Jack has to to be a mindreading , wishful thinker. No, Ennis was'nt great with words, but neither was Jack, but some one should have been able to get their message across loud and clear without having to resort to what happen in the confrontation scenes. Could either of them read between each other's lines and just say it, whatever it may be?.  Once again, poor Jack is pouring his heart out about how much he needs Ennis and goes further in saying he can "hardly stand it" anymore and what does he get? A coy smile and silence. At least he has taken the intiative, leaving Ennis an opening as wide as the Grand Canyon!.   Then during the conversation leading up to the confrontation, Ennis is trying to explain his responsibilities to Jack, and Jack thinks Ennis is playing games,  or playing him. Both of them carry underlying anger about the roles they play within the relationship, but keep it hidden, until it explodes in a series of accusations and frustrating blame. Had they been able to communicate earlier and often , their relationship would have made better sense to both of them. They should  know after 20 yrs neither was going to judge the other  no matter what they did or said right? or wrong?
Another rant over!!... Thanx

well said...However, even though they had a high comfort level as they were in love for 20 years due to lack of emoting verbally they felt as if so much is left to be told and whether the other will reciprocate back or not....

The final confrontation is heart breaking as it simply shows that all the repressed emotions just came out and there should have been no piling up of that..but there was and so it became worse...they never spoke about how they felt...finally jack came close and told that he misses him so much he can hardly stand it...it all bottoms up to the fact that he loves him and just wants to be with him..nothing else mattered

[lancecowboy]

I read all the posts and I am still at a loss to understanding the scene. There are so many possible interpretations and possible reasons for their words.

I think that is the beauty of the movie, that it reflects life so well. There are often times in life, when there are no obvious and clear answers. I think this is one of them.

I mean, here is a question being asked in the context of the many broken marriages of the seventies and eighties, in the context of rural America in fear of the gay liberation movement going on in the big cities, in the context of the two poor rural ranch hands who struggled to make their living and finding some happiness in their lives, in the context of Jack just finished saying earlier on that he and Lureen has the kind of relationship that can carry on over the phone...normal and all. So, the question is not "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?" The question underlying Jack's question is, "What we got, ain't it better than any marriage you can find? Isn't it time we think about the cow and calf operation again?"

When Ennis misunderstood the question and responded with the line that he's putting the blocks on this little waitress...etc, Jack had no way to continue, except to put in his own infidelity to make the pot even.

I just don't understand, why was it so difficult to just come right out to ask the real question. It is as if there is always this shadow of doubt, of fear of rejection, that surrounds their love, so that they can only experience it without words in the tent. It must be a guy thing. Two lesbians would have had the balls to talk it out. Pun intended.

The tragedy is not just the repressed and oppressed love, but the love denied because there was no communication because either side, or both sides, could not articulate what they want, for fear of looking bad, fear of rejection, fear of...fear.

[aintfoolin]

Lancecowboy, I totally agree with you. I also feel the deeper meaning of Jack's question seemed to go right over Ennis's head. It seemed liked both were afraid of any real  verbal honesty though Jack did at least try to express his emotional frustration , just did'nt go far enough, still too vague. Did Jack feel that Ennis "just could'nt handle the truth".. ? That it would scare someone like Ennis off.  Or was Jack too scared  himself to say goodbye and risk hurting Ennis?  Ennis's hurt was his own hurt, but...

If Ennis loved and needed Jack like we suspect,  or had such an emotional  loving bond over 20 yrs. then why would Ennis ever  leave or break up with him? Marry another woman? They  shared many intimate secrets, some that showed the relationship was deep, no doubt there, but I keep feeling that it was up to Jack to initiate bolder communication, Ennis  just was'nt gonna do it as part of his inner conflict, compared to Jack, who was more open, confident, and accepting of who he really was. ...Or maybe not. Maybe as well as Jack read  and knew Ennis, there was a part of Jack that could'nt deal with loss or rejection , or the finality of once again loosing Ennis. This time there was no Alma between them, only Ennis's stubborn fear which proved to be the bigger, tougher obstacle than any wife or waitress.  I just feel that after so many years more verbal declarations of love were due if that was indeed the the case. Both Jack and Ennis could've used the reassurance of those three little words.

 Although I rant about the lack of communication, I accept things were as they were, It's just sad when i think of what might've been, had Jack survived . Ennis sent the last post card to Jack to meet after all, not a sign that Ennis was gonna let go or reject  Jack after the confrontation. Jack's words just may have gotten thru and Ennis was maybe thinking of giving the sweet life a shot .  Sadly we'll never know, but dreaming's free right?

[lancecowboy]

Interesting points, aintfoolin. I am not sure if Jack was trying to say goodbye to Ennis. Somehow, I don't think Jack would ever willingly let go of Ennis. I think it was after the last confrontation, when Ennis blurted out, "I can't take this any more Jack." "I am nothing, I am no where." Then Jack decided to try his luck else where, perhaps with Randall...finding someone else to marry, so to speak. Perhaps that's the other underlying meaning in the question. That Jack found some else other than Ennis. I don't agree with it, but interesting point.

Yes, the fear of rejection, which Jack already suffered enough times, over and over, was part of the problem. Ennis had done the rejecting for so long, that, perhaps he didn't know how to make the proposal to Jack. The postcard was just his way of trying to patch things up, for another chance to come face to face, and make things right. Too bad his attempt came too little too late.

[smartestsonia]

I read all the posts and I am still at a loss to understanding the scene. There are so many possible interpretations and possible reasons for their words.

I think that is the beauty of the movie, that it reflects life so well. There are often times in life, when there are no obvious and clear answers. I think this is one of them.

I mean, here is a question being asked in the context of the many broken marriages of the seventies and eighties, in the context of rural America in fear of the gay liberation movement going on in the big cities, in the context of the two poor rural ranch hands who struggled to make their living and finding some happiness in their lives, in the context of Jack just finished saying earlier on that he and Lureen has the kind of relationship that can carry on over the phone...normal and all. So, the question is not "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?" The question underlying Jack's question is, "What we got, ain't it better than any marriage you can find? Isn't it time we think about the cow and calf operation again?"

When Ennis misunderstood the question and responded with the line that he's putting the blocks on this little waitress...etc, Jack had no way to continue, except to put in his own infidelity to make the pot even.

I just don't understand, why was it so difficult to just come right out to ask the real question. It is as if there is always this shadow of doubt, of fear of rejection, that surrounds their love, so that they can only experience it without words in the tent. It must be a guy thing. Two lesbians would have had the balls to talk it out. Pun intended.

The tragedy is not just the repressed and oppressed love, but the love denied because there was no communication because either side, or both sides, could not articulate what they want, for fear of looking bad, fear of rejection, fear of...fear.

well those r interesting observations..as u said one possiblity can be that it was a guy thing....they could not express what they felt in words...I think there was a fear of rejection which would be too hard to bear.,,I also feel imo that Jack had more fear of this as he knew how repressive Ennis was...I mean Ennis did have lot of fear in his mind due to his childhood experience of gays being killed as well a the fact that Ennis dint wana live with him ...when those attempts of Jack failed he filt that he needs to be happy wth what he has..although he was not..he wanted to be a major part of Ennis life...When he asked Ennis the question about marriage he had a lot of mixed emotons in his heart..all coming through that one line asking that can they finally live togther, is someone else in Ennis life also or just make Ennis speak up something thats in his heart and mind...He asked it when both were in a very chilled out mood....he asked it so casually and calmly eve though am sure there was  a flood of emotions gushing in him...he dint wana make ennis uncomforatble at all....When he finally told Ennis that sometimes he misses him so much that he can hardly stand it...Ennis did feel the sam etoo.....we can make out by the look he gave Jack at that time..Although for Ennis to say anything beyond that would have made the situatione very vulnerable ..so Ennis just lets go..the next scene of the film both r sleeping in the tent and Ennis is holding Jack....that is Ennis caresssing jack and expressing to him that he feels the same way
 

[Matt Nasty]

well those r interesting observations..as u said one possiblity can be that it was a guy thing....they could not express what they felt in words...I think there was a fear of rejection which would be too hard to bear.,,I also feel imo that Jack had more fear of this as he knew how repressive Ennis was...I mean Ennis did have lot of fear in his mind due to his childhood experience of gays being killed as well a the fact that Ennis dint wana live with him ...when those attempts of Jack failed he filt that he needs to be happy wth what he has..although he was not..he wanted to be a major part of Ennis life...When he asked Ennis the question about marriage he had a lot of mixed emotons in his heart..all coming through that one line asking that can they finally live togther, is someone else in Ennis life also or just make Ennis speak up something thats in his heart and mind...He asked it when both were in a very chilled out mood....he asked it so casually and calmly eve though am sure there was  a flood of emotions gushing in him...he dint wana make ennis uncomforatble at all....When he finally told Ennis that sometimes he misses him so much that he can hardly stand it...Ennis did feel the sam etoo.....we can make out by the look he gave Jack at that time..Although for Ennis to say anything beyond that would have made the situatione very vulnerable ..so Ennis just lets go..the next scene of the film both r sleeping in the tent and Ennis is holding Jack....that is Ennis caresssing jack and expressing to him that he feels the same way
 

it htink the section ive bolded sounds very plausible i mean from my little obsivations of peopl in general (which may be totally wrong) i seem to see that guys taken rejection worse then girls.

[pattyjean]

it htink the section ive bolded sounds very plausible i mean from my little obsivations of peopl in general (which may be totally wrong) i seem to see that guys taken rejection worse then girls.

True Matt--about rejection!  Somewhere in the short story, Annie wrote that, according to Jack, NOTHING had worked out in his life the way he had hoped.  So why not ask Ennis about the M word--and expect a less than positive answer?  Jack sooo wanted a proclamation of eternal love from Ennis, but when he didn't get it, he continued by stating, "Sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it!"  And in a way Ennis did make a statement to Jack that night by sleeping with his arm lovingly draped over Jack!

[lancecowboy]

it htink the section ive bolded sounds very plausible i mean from my little obsivations of peopl in general (which may be totally wrong) i seem to see that guys taken rejection worse then girls.

Ain't that the truth...! I think women have known for a long time that men have fragile egos. 

[tpe]

Their fragility is only matched by their desire to be in control.  In the case of Ennis and Jack, they seemed to have ceeded a great deal of control to the women -- in which case, they felt that couldn't cede much more to each other.

[lancecowboy]

Their fragility is only matched by their desire to be in control.  In the case of Ennis and Jack, they seemed to have ceeded a great deal of control to the women -- in which case, they felt that couldn't cede much more to each other.

Not sure I agree with you here, tpe. Ennis and Jack never had control in the lives, being poor ranchand and all. And they never wanted control with each other, at least from the story or the movie... not like they were into bondage and such...(not that there is anything wrong with that, if that's your cup of tea, just that Ennis and Jack never did) Then again, there was that scene with the rope...

Nah....

[pattyjean]

Not sure I agree with you here, tpe. Ennis and Jack never had control in the lives, being poor ranchand and all. And they never wanted control with each other, at least from the story or the movie... not like they were into bondage and such...(not that there is anything wrong with that, if that's your cup of tea, just that Ennis and Jack never did) Then again, there was that scene with the rope...

Nah....

Your comments are just waaay too funny!  I guess you can't say anything about anything, even S/M, without possibly insulting someone!  I agree that Jack and Ennis did not try to control each other in any way whenever they were together--they were two bookends--and in their love for each other.  And neither one controlled his wife.  Alma told Ennis to wipe Junior's nose, and persuaded Ennis to move into town; Lureen's control was a no-brainer.  So when Jack asked this thread question, it was understood that if Ennis had found another woman, Jack's relationship with him would remain pure and perfect.     

[aintfoolin]

Interesting points, aintfoolin. I am not sure if Jack was trying to say goodbye to Ennis. Somehow, I don't think Jack would ever willingly let go of Ennis. I think it was after the last confrontation, when Ennis blurted out, "I can't take this any more Jack." "I am nothing, I am no where." Then Jack decided to try his luck else where, perhaps with Randall...finding someone else to marry, so to speak. Perhaps that's the other underlying meaning in the question. That Jack found some else other than Ennis. I don't agree with it, but interesting point.

Yes, the fear of rejection, which Jack already suffered enough times, over and over, was part of the problem. Ennis had done the rejecting for so long, that, perhaps he didn't know how to make the proposal to Jack. The postcard was just his way of trying to patch things up, for another chance to come face to face, and make things right. Too bad his attempt came too little too late.

It is interesting that Ennis says it's because of Jack, he is "nothing" and "nowhere". It sums up the way Ennis feels about himself concerning how the relationship has affected his life. At least half his adult life has been spent revolving around Jack for reasons he does not understand or accept...yet Jack Twist remains very important in his life. Jack is some one he cannot just let go of, yet he cannot fully embrace either. I've often felt it was an unfair statement to Jack because on the surface it contains the element of blame, yet it does have a ring of truth to it, only it's not Jack's fault that Ennis chose to participate in the relationship, not Jack's fault that Ennis quit jobs, or failed at marriage. No one forced Ennis to do what it took in order to continue seeing Jack. When Jack presented himself, Ennis had a choice.

Jack did feel Ennis was something and was somewhere. In love , but in denial. In that sense Jack could claim "nothing" and "nowhere" too, because of his love for Ennis, he is doomed to a half life existence instead of  a life lived to the fullest. At the risk of sounding *fanfic like* I saw Jack's proposal of a sweet life with Ennis on par with a marriage proposal. If he could've married Ennis, he would've. His motives have been clear from the beginning. What Ennis can't "take anymore" is his own confusion and conflict, the secrecy, guilt, and denial inflicted on Jack, himself, and the relationship..  MO.Thanx.

[babytammy7]

Awesome post, AF. I agree. Thank you. 

[lancecowboy]

I agree, aintfoolin, awesome post.

You bring up a few points worth elaboration, I think.

First and foremost is the equivalence between the sweet life proposal, and a marriage proposal. I have often used the word proposal myself, without explicitly stating it as a marriage proposal, but I think Ennis understood it as such. It reminded him of Earl and Rich...and the sad tragic tale. Jack understood it as such, too. The major difference, of course, is that society does NOT recognize it as such, and therefore, it is surrounded by fear and uncertainly from the beginning, and never stood a chance to blossom and take root. It is why I admire gay couples who can stand the test of time, and make their relationships last.

Secondly, I can see that Jack also took Ennis' Because of you, that I am like this. I am no where. I am nothing. It is perhaps the motivator that Jack needed to let go, to seek out Randall at great risk. When couples say things in a moment of anguish, it often leads to unwanted consequences.

Finally, I don't see Ennis is to blame either. Love is worse than any addiction known to men. Ennis simply can't help himself, when it comes to Jack F#$king Twist. There ain't no reins on this one. As long as Jack kept sending 'em postcards, Ennis will keep coming up the mountain for 'em high altitude f#@ks a few times a year. In fact, even when Jack don't send them postcards, Ennis managed to send one of his own. It was still too little, too late. Although, if Jack were alive to receive the postcard, he would jump for joy and drove up from Texas all fourteen hours.

JMO

[tpe]

Not sure I agree with you here, tpe. Ennis and Jack never had control in the lives, being poor ranchand and all. And they never wanted control with each other, at least from the story or the movie... not like they were into bondage and such...(not that there is anything wrong with that, if that's your cup of tea, just that Ennis and Jack never did) Then again, there was that scene with the rope...

Nah....

That is true: they were never in control.  But this doesn't change the fact of what I said in the previouis post: that they always desired to be in control.  In the case of Jack, it meant the sweet life.  With Ennis, it was mastery and control of his own deep-seated fears.  In both cases, the marriages made things more complicated -- it is in this that the women held the keys.

[manhattangirl]

"I wish I knew how to quit you" v. "Its because of you Jack I'm like this."

I've always thought that Jack and Ennis thought one had control over the other.  They gave each other that power, but felt they themselves had no control.      JMO

[lancecowboy]

"I wish I knew how to quit you" v. "Its because of you Jack I'm like this."

I've always thought that Jack and Ennis thought one had control over the other.  They gave each other that power, but felt they themselves had no control.      JMO

Could it be, perhaps, they enjoy the out of control feeling, of no reins, like riding a piece of stock for eight seconds. They don't need control to feel the passion, the love between them. Finding someone else to marry would be meaningless by comparison, as surely as Jack find Lureen's relationship irrelevant by comparison to the love between him and Ennis. When you have a roller coaster ride of corkscrewing proportions, why settle for a little buggy ride?

Just a thought. Not sure if it is true for our cowboys or not.

[atalley]

I agree Andrew.  It reminds me of what Paul Newman once said..."why go out for hamburger when you've got steak at home?"  No marriage could fulfill what they had with one another.

[manhattangirl]

These guys sat around the "old camp fire" trying to figure out their lives, when all the time it was looking at them straight in the face. 

While trying to figure out the "womenfolk" when they really weren't the problem.  Jack put in a nutshell, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

That was the problem, the "plausible deniablity" of it all. They would have to face the fact that they loved each other head on and stop "two stepping"  around it.   


IMO