Topic: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"

[lancecowboy]

Yup. Agreed, manhattangirl. They been two-stepping around the pink-elephant in the room, the one called "society" or "peer pressure" or "social opinions" or what have you, that they forgot or neglected their own feelings.

You are right on when you say that the solution is right in front of them, right in their hearts. The problem was not anyone else, not even society. The problem was their own culpability in denying their own love for each other.

 

[Ranchand1]

  Jack didn't leave Loraine and move to be near Ennis cause life happened in the inbetween.  He had a son.  He had a family.  He had security.  An Ennis had told him NO.  Give Jack credit he knew what livin near Ennis would be like.  It was bad enough only two or three times a year being rejected.  Try takein that kind of pain two or three times a week.  You call that a life?  Chasin Ennis around, all over Wyoming?  Leave all in Texas for that?  No way.  Just like some of us, Jack made his own mind up to stand livin with second best all them years.  Cause when you cant fix it you got to stand it, right? 

    This was in response to discussion over in Surreptitious Glances but Chameau pulled this link out of his bag of tricks.  If you want to see what I'm responding to.

[lancecowboy]

I don't claim to be a Jack expert, Ranchand, and I don't blame Jack for not moving closer to Ennis.

But, I think, in the end, when Jack settled for second best, he got what he settled for.  :\'(

Ennis was wrong to deny and reject his own love for so long, no question about that.

Jack was courageous and tenacious to hold on, hang on, drive on for all 'em years.

No doubt about the love between those two, back in those days...if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it.

But what if, Jack had burned his bridges and sank his ships, so to speak...moving to Lightning Flats with his folks. He can tell Ennis, I am here waiting for you, if you want the sweet life. I don't have anyone else but you, and I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it. But I ain't putting up with no more a couple high altitude f@#$ a few times a year. You want it, cowboy? You come and get it. I am tired of driving all 'em miles. It's your turn.

I bet you a silver dollar that Ennis would drive up there to Lightning Flats faster than a greased pig. That's what could have, should have happened that November when Ennis and Jack meet again.  :\'(

[manhattangirl]

Me personally, I've always thought Jack played by Ennis's rule.  Jack made one offer, he would leave Lureen, takes LD's money and not look back.  But Ennis nixed that idea.  When Ennis got his divorce Jack drove to him, and got turned away, he would have stayed if Ennis told him to stay.   

Jack only thought was to be with Ennis, and did what Ennis wanted him to do, he did stay married, and I don't believe out any obligation as a father or husband, because Ennis wanted him there, and to come to him those few times a year.   Do you really think if Jack moved any where out of Texas Ennis would follow, I don't think so. 

This is the ironic part of this story.  Ennis so keen on marriage and its obligations divorced, and Jack, who would leave everything behind for Ennis, stayed in his marriage till his death.   

Some may fault Jack for wanting to leave his marriage, but think about it, Jack was the more honest, the most true to himself and paid a price for it.     JMO.

[lancecowboy]

I stand corrected, manhattangirl. Jack didn't settle for second best. He was forced into it by Ennis.

[aintfoolin]

I don't claim to be a Jack expert, Ranchand, and I don't blame Jack for not moving closer to Ennis.

But, I think, in the end, when Jack settled for second best, he got what he settled for.  :\'(

Ennis was wrong to deny and reject his own love for so long, no question about that.

Jack was courageous and tenacious to hold on, hang on, drive on for all 'em years.

No doubt about the love between those two, back in those days...if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it.

But what if, Jack had burned his bridges and sank his ships, so to speak...moving to Lightning Flats with his folks. He can tell Ennis, I am here waiting for you, if you want the sweet life. I don't have anyone else but you, and I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it. But I ain't putting up with no more a couple high altitude f@#$ a few times a year. You want it, cowboy? You come and get it. I am tired of driving all 'em miles. It's your turn.

I bet you a silver dollar that Ennis would drive up there to Lightning Flats faster than a greased pig. That's what could have, should have happened that November when Ennis and Jack meet again.  :\'(

I  tend to very much agree with you .  No one really knows what the reasons are ,why Jack never proposed moving closer to Ennis nor the affect this would have on Ennis, Jack never pinpointed a particular state or town to have their cow and calf operation at the time he proposed,, but chances are, it would'nt be Riverton.  He knows Ennis is paralyzed and paranoid there. At one point he tried to coax Ennis out of Wyoming to try for Texas, or Mexico. Perhaps jack found in those places, even in those times, people were  a little more open-minded than the fire and brimestone crowd in Riverton.  Or maybe he felt two people could more easily *get lost* in the crowd  ,  in a more populated area.find  a little more freedom ,and not draw such suspicion.

I love your Jack *burning bridges and sinking ships.*  Laying  it all out for Ennis...from a distance. I have often felt that Jack should've *tested* Ennis. Challenged the strength of Ennis's love and need. Your scenario would be interesting to see.  Jack, holed up in LF, calling on Ennis for once to come to him,  the proposal of ranching up still on the table. Ennis either wants it or he does'nt. Ennis either wants, loves and needs  HIM, or he does'nt. That may take a while , but time will tell.

Both Jack and Ennis had choices.  Their future together hung in the balance according to those choices. Jack says yes, proposed  they stay together, live together,  Ennis says no way .  An impass, but they love each other. Can't stay away from each other, but neither can stand the staus quo. Both had the  power of love in their favor. In that, they were equal.

  They are both getting something from the other. Something they both crave ( and goes much deeper than just sex). It's called a life. A sense of completion? acceptance and understnding? whatever, so  how does Jack get Ennis to budge? Give Ennis a little something to think about and  time .  Let Ennis stew,  think about  what his  personal life would be  like with and  without Jack, and how that affects who or what he becomes. Jack must prepare himself for rejection, or after a reasonable period of time he must prepare to move on.

Jack cannot *force* Ennis to do anything, but thru the  hard choices he makes, he can compel Ennis to make some hard choices of his own. In time he will get the answers he needs, good or bad.   I think it took alot of courage and a certain amount of humility for Ennis to send that last post card  after the confrontation he had with Jack. . before he knew of Jack's death.  If he was being truthful, he was *nuthin*, and *nowhere* cause a Jack? To  still initiate another  meeting. admitting to himself , he needed Jack in spite of it.... having to admit that though he had'nt acheived much  in the way of material posessions,he knew it was Jack who made him something and somwhere. Imo, he just missed Jack  Twist something awful as a part of his life. Sadly he waited to late to *fix it*.MO Thanx.

[lancecowboy]

That's a great thought provoking post, aintfoolin.

I agreed with manhattangirl that Jack wasn't about to divorce Lureen and move to Lightning Flats to see if Ennis might perhaps meet him half way.

I agree with you that it'd be interesting scenario to see. And as you said, by the time Ennis sent that postcard, he was ready. I really believe that.

It's easy to play armchair cupid and say what the cowboys would do, but I bet all the thinking about burning bridges and sinking ships were what drove Jack to drinking in the first place. What if he left all that and got nothing, not even the couple f@#$ a few times a year? He can't live with that, and he can't live without that...so he settled for second best, not the second best family in Texas...the second best option with Ennis, when Ennis couldn't accept the sweet life.

Ennis made the choice for Jack. So Jack just gotta stand it. He didn't know how to quit.  :\'(

[FlwrChild]

Fantastic comments everyone. I'm blown away.

Ranchand, you said that so well and I agree with you. I posted about this in the Surreptitious Glances thread because it was mentioned there too. Here's the link:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1276.msg835314#msg835314

I give fair warning. It got a bit long-winded.

lc, this broke my heart:

"Jack didn't settle for second best. He was forced into it by Ennis."

So true. And Ennis was forced into it as well. He had to stand it because he didn't know how to fix it. Not because he didn't want to. Because he truly believed it wasn't possible. In a better world, finding their soulmates and loving each other for a lifetime would've brought only joy, not conflict and pain.

[tpe]

I stand corrected, manhattangirl. Jack didn't settle for second best. He was forced into it by Ennis.

Personally, I don't see it so much as forced by Ennis.  I see it more as Jack and Ennis trying to come to terms with Enis's internal struggles.  They understood each other, and I think that in spite of Jack's accusation at the Last Confrontation, both understood that the marriage question was just a byword to the true conflict that both were trying to come to terms with.

[lancecowboy]

[...]
lc, this broke my heart:

"Jack didn't settle for second best. He was forced into it by Ennis."

So true. And Ennis was forced into it as well. He had to stand it because he didn't know how to fix it. Not because he didn't want to. Because he truly believed it wasn't possible. In a better world, finding their soulmates and loving each other for a lifetime would've brought only joy, not conflict and pain.

FlwrChild     

In a better world, no love is denied.
Lovers are free to be.
Love blossoms in the beauty of youth,
       matures in the share struggles of daily living,
 and finds comfort in peace while growing old.
May we all live in a better world.
 

[tpe]

FlwrChild     

In a better world, no love is denied.
Lovers are free to be.
Love blossoms in the beauty of youth,
       matures in the share struggles of daily living,
 and finds comfort in peace while growing old.
May we all live in a better world.
 

And the world can certainly become a better place without such denial.

[smartestsonia]

FlwrChild     

In a better world, no love is denied.
Lovers are free to be.
Love blossoms in the beauty of youth,
       matures in the share struggles of daily living,
 and finds comfort in peace while growing old.
May we all live in a better world.
 

I will pray for that day to come soon...Its hope that keeps life going and lets live by that hope 

[orangetruck]

Personally, I don't see it so much as forced by Ennis.  I see it more as Jack and Ennis trying to come to terms with Enis's internal struggles.  They understood each other, and I think that in spite of Jack's accusation at the Last Confrontation, both understood that the marriage question was just a byword to the true conflict that both were trying to come to terms with.

I completely agree. They most definitely (undercover as it may have been) understood each other. Hence, the question. Marriage aside, Ennis' being with another woman suggests that Ennis was fundamentally unchanged. Comforting, nostalgic in the way that this tolled the bridge to Brokeback every now and then. But Jack couldn't bare being an indifference to their love anymore. The truth was to come out of both, if not directly: Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it: I can't stand this anymore, Jack.

But I guess ya don't really know whatcha got 'til it's gone. Jack hadn't presented himself quite so lonely in front of Ennis before the night prior to Last Confrontation, had he? Maybe this let Ennis know that someone could and had felt like him, and a crossroad was met after one last night together..

[tpe]

I completely agree. They most definitely (undercover as it may have been) understood each other. Hence, the question. Marriage aside, Ennis' being with another woman suggests that Ennis was fundamentally unchanged. Comforting, nostalgic in the way that this tolled the bridge to Brokeback every now and then. But Jack couldn't bare being an indifference to their love anymore. The truth was to come out of both, if not directly: Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it: I can't stand this anymore, Jack.

But I guess ya don't really know whatcha got 'til it's gone. Jack hadn't presented himself quite so lonely in front of Ennis before the night prior to Last Confrontation, had he? Maybe this let Ennis know that someone could and had felt like him, and a crossroad was met after one last night together..

Alas, perhaps they understood each other all too well.  Sometimes, the element of the unexpedted -- of surprise -- is necessary to kick us out of our comfort zones.  As you said here, the comfort of an unchanging Ennis and Jack perhaps got the better of both of them.

And yes, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" and  "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" are true pendants to each other, voicing how each of them were -- in reality -- miserable under the unchanging status quo.

Loneliness has an alienating quality.  Loneliness makes it difficult for us to express to other people the depth of our loneliness.  I hope this doesn't sound paradoxical to you...

[orangetruck]

Alas, perhaps they understood each other all too well.  Sometimes, the element of the unexpedted -- of surprise -- is necessary to kick us out of our comfort zones.  As you said here, the comfort of an unchanging Ennis and Jack perhaps got the better of both of them.

And yes, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" and  "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" are true pendants to each other, voicing how each of them were -- in reality -- miserable under the unchanging status quo.

Loneliness has an alienating quality.  Loneliness makes it difficult for us to express to other people the depth of our loneliness.  I hope this doesn't sound paradoxical to you...

Similarly, that night was like a confirmation of how content each man was with their status. In other words it was a measurement of fear in each of them. Jack speaks out against hiding from the world. Ennis does not.

No, I don't think I get paradoxical from that. The thing I see about lonliness is that yes, you feel alone. Hence, where is your energy or support? Without it, you don't have much aptitude to give or, rather, express to anyone.

Alas, a crossroad.

[tpe]

Similarly, that night was like a confirmation of how content each man was with their status. In other words it was a measurement of fear in each of them. Jack speaks out against hiding from the world. Ennis does not.

No, I don't think I get paradoxical from that. The thing I see about lonliness is that yes, you feel alone. Hence, where is your energy or support? Without it, you don't have much aptitude to give or, rather, express to anyone.

Alas, a crossroad.

If I understand you correctly here, you refer to their seeming compacency in that scene.  In this sense, I do agree: there was an appearance of contentment, shallow it may have been.

After all, loneliness breeds a certain type of "contentment".

[orangetruck]

If I understand you correctly here, you refer to their seeming compacency in that scene.  In this sense, I do agree: there was an appearance of contentment, shallow it may have been.

After all, loneliness breeds a certain type of "contentment".

Yes, but let's not put confusion between contentment and resignation as it was in another thread. 

Perhaps Jack was resigning from the loneliness that comes with one last night with Ennis, and Ennis was only handicapped with contentment (loneliness) as he wouldn't possess the strength for resignation until the significance of losing Jack (re:shirts) presented the opportunity.

In short, Ennis would always be on a journey for love but he would unfortunately never truly know this until he had known Jack. Now that he can remember Jack, remember love, he can go from 9 to 10. Because now he knows, like Jack, love is inside; perversely, he can even touch and finger it. Button it up a little. In this sense, he resigns from having been rendered to think this love thing could never be of his functionality. Alone in his trailer without Jack hurts but it's no longer Earl as the figure on his deck of cards.

Here in the context of their last night on the mountain together I can see it as contentment, sure. But later on when he's holding the ghost of Jack upstairs is Ennis content? No, I think that's crazy.

I think if Ennis is seen as content at the end of the story, he is being seen by someone who needs to but can't stop projecting himself into Ennis' shoes. Hence, it would be more comfortable to call it contentment. It helps to alleviate the sense of having been "wrong" in a relationship, I would figure. But is it ever "wrong" to love someone: If it ain't broke don't fix it

Ennis won't have to answer this question any longer: Jack, I swear.

[manhattangirl]

Loneliness was part of their lives,  it was them.   i think this recognized loneliness they found in each other was what attracted them.   you saw that when they were by the fire, drinking whiskey discussing their lives.  they understood that loneliness.  Jack's not being validated by his father,  Ennis internalizing his feelings, his thoughts until Jack. 

loneliness is what brought them together, and kept bringing them together, because no matter who they were with in their separate lives, they were still lonely and needed the only other person who understand that loneliness.

[tpe]

Good points, MG and OT. 

I do agree that loneliness was a part of their lives, and the scene under discussion is suffused with it. 

I should probably clarify what I mean by "contentment" in my previous post.  It is slightly different from resignation.

Sometimes, we say that people are content to let things go the way they are -- not because they are happy or even resigned.  They do this because they fear change.  In the context of loneliness, alienation can lead us to a false sense of security, such that we fear any advent of change.  Hence, we may feel content in our loneliness not because we are happy or resigned; rather, we are content to leave things as they are because we are afraid to see how or waht can develop if we allowed things to move on.

This is the meaning I want to convey relative to that night before the last confrontation. 

[orangetruck]

Good points, MG and OT. 

I do agree that loneliness was a part of their lives, and the scene under discussion is suffused with it. 

I should probably clarify what I mean by "contentment" in my previous post.  It is slightly different from resignation.

Sometimes, we say that people are content to let things go the way they are -- not because they are happy or even resigned.  They do this because they fear change.  In the context of loneliness, alienation can lead us to a false sense of security, such that we fear any advent of change.  Hence, we may feel content in our loneliness not because we are happy or resigned; rather, we are content to leave things as they are because we are afraid to see how or waht can develop if we allowed things to move on.

This is the meaning I want to convey relative to that night before the last confrontation. 

Thanks for the clarification, tpe.

I realize this is becoming OT, but: May we see the last trailer scene as Ennis' false sense of security? Does he treat this place the same as he treats the place they camp the night before last confrontation? What, if anything, has changed inside him? And what exactly makes this type of contentment before LC different than that of this lonely trailer? Does Ennis find resignation inside? Or does he still hold onto Earl more than Jack? To put it real lamens-like, by now Earl should be a ghost twice over; I'll bet Jack is just a wee bit more palpable to Ennis. This is indeed where I find his resignation.

I find his ability to give into love is somewhat evident in the closing trailer scenes, and that this may constitute for having overcome such an advent.

[aintfoolin]

I feel that Ennis may have been content with  having Jack's love, but also resigned to the fact that there was nothing he could do about that. (" no reigns on this one") . I also feel that Ennis may have forced Jack into his lonley world and he also became content  but hopeful, but he was never resigned to it. Jack always felt that things could some day change.

Ennis feared change, but after the confrontation, and some time had passed, I choose to beleive that Ennis was on the verge of a life changing decision. He broke it off with Cassie and sent the postcard. Perhaps the same card that hung in his closet later next to the shirts as a symbol of what was, but also what would  have been. A lesson too late learned.  His vow....Jack, I swear.. MO.

[orangetruck]

I feel that Ennis may have been content with  having Jack's love, but also resigned to the fact that there was nothing he could do about that. (" no reigns on this one") . I also feel that Ennis may have forced Jack into his lonley world and he also became content  but hopeful, but he was never resigned to it. Jack always felt that things could some day change.

Ennis feared change, but after the confrontation, and some time had passed, I choose to beleive that Ennis was on the verge of a life changing decision. He broke it off with Cassie and sent the postcard. Perhaps the same card that hung in his closet later next to the shirts as a symbol of what was, but also what would  have been. A lesson too late learned.  His vow....Jack, I swear.. MO.

I hear that. 

This is the order I am also referring to.

[tpe]

Thanks for the clarification, tpe.

I realize this is becoming OT, but: May we see the last trailer scene as Ennis' false sense of security? Does he treat this place the same as he treats the place they camp the night before last confrontation? What, if anything, has changed inside him? And what exactly makes this type of contentment before LC different than that of this lonely trailer? Does Ennis find resignation inside? Or does he still hold onto Earl more than Jack? To put it real lamens-like, by now Earl should be a ghost twice over; I'll bet Jack is just a wee bit more palpable to Ennis. This is indeed where I find his resignation.

I find his ability to give into love is somewhat evident in the closing trailer scenes, and that this may constitute for having overcome such an advent.

I don't think he really had a sense of security in the final scenes.  I think he had within him the seed to try to make things better -- not just for him, but also for his children.  It was a timy seed of change -- small, but enough.  I think that rweading this in the context of the main topic of this thread, see see that he shed a bit of the pretense that held him back, as far as love was concerned.  This indicates that he was leaning more towards Jack rather than to Earl.

[vedrana]

I don't think he really had a sense of security in the final scenes.  I think he had within him the seed to try to make things better -- not just for him, but also for his children.  It was a timy seed of change -- small, but enough.  I think that rweading this in the context of the main topic of this thread, see see that he shed a bit of the pretense that held him back, as far as love was concerned.  This indicates that he was leaning more towards Jack rather than to Earl.

Well, I know who's Randall, but who's Earl??? 

This thread is too long to read everything, can you explain, please!

[orangetruck]

Well, I know who's Randall, but who's Earl??? 

This thread is too long to read everything, can you explain, please!

Earl's the dead guy in the ditch that Ennis and his brother were led down to see at the age of 9.

Here we're sort of balancing the priority between Ennis' image of Earl and that of Jack, who influences him more now. Earl may have given Ennis' heart an empty pocket, and I think Jack fills it for him; it's no longer the money with which Ennis simply gets by, it's the change.

[vedrana]

Earl's the dead guy in the ditch that Ennis and his brother were led down to see at the age of 9.

Here we're sort of balancing the priority between Ennis' image of Earl and that of Jack, who influences him more now. Earl may have given Ennis' heart an empty pocket, and I think Jack fills it for him; it's no longer the money with which Ennis simply gets by, it's the change.

 

Sure! But you boys are sometimes too much for my English. Sometimes I have to read your (esspecially yours OT) posts for 3-4 times until put all together in my mind. In fact, when I write in Croatian, I express it in a very similar way like you, but here still have a language barriers problem. 

   

[orangetruck]

Sure! But you boys are sometimes too much for my English. Sometimes I have to read your (esspecially yours OT) posts for 3-4 times until put all together in my mind. In fact, when I write in Croatian, I express it in a very similar way like you, but here still have a language barriers problem. 

   

Well it's not a lot of fun being misunderstood, so I think the best part is when one member understands the other. Even if it doesn't happen at first sight. 

Ever notice anything peculiar about how Ennis stares and grins at Jack after Jack says he's "liable to get shot every time he sees.."?

"You probably deserve it"
*laughter*
"Tell you what..", Jack says. And the glance Ennis gives him here is the one I'm referring to. Ennis finds relief and probably reassurance on more than one level, in that Jack's been fooling around with a wife and not another man. But also, when he does say "..you probably deserve it.. huh", I imagine his inner self knows this: It would be going against the nature of love if either he or Jack swung the opposite way towards a woman, which would be wrong and of course mean the tire iron -- this being the equivalent of what conscious Ennis knew about queers.

Perhaps Ennis saw his own sudden reflection when Jack admitted his affair with a woman, recognizing it as generic and empty. Hence deserving to get shot. Whether he understood why/how or not I think even Ennis knew, while on the mountain, that every relationship they had was wrong except for theirs.

Of course his conscience and subconscious probably weren't on speaking terms as of yet; to conscious Ennis "You probably deserve it.." can roll off his tongue like a joke, but don't we often make casual jokes or sarcasm about certain (provocative) ideas when they simply need stimulation?

Just some thoughts.

[tpe]

Well it's not a lot of fun being misunderstood, so I think the best part is when one member understands the other. Even if it doesn't happen at first sight. 

Ever notice anything peculiar about how Ennis stares and grins at Jack after Jack says he's "liable to get shot every time he sees.."?

"You probably deserve it"
*laughter*
"Tell you what..", Jack says. And the glance Ennis gives him here is the one I'm referring to. Ennis finds relief and probably reassurance on more than one level, in that Jack's been fooling around with a wife and not another man. But also, when he does say "..you probably deserve it.. huh", I imagine his inner self knows this: It would be going against the nature of love if either he or Jack swung the opposite way towards a woman, which would be wrong and of course mean the tire iron -- this being the equivalent of what conscious Ennis knew about queers.

Perhaps Ennis saw his own sudden reflection when Jack admitted his affair with a woman, recognizing it as generic and empty. Hence deserving to get shot. Whether he understood why/how or not I think even Ennis knew, while on the mountain, that every relationship they had was wrong except for theirs.

Of course his conscience and subconscious probably weren't on speaking terms as of yet; to conscious Ennis "You probably deserve it.." can roll off his tongue like a joke, but don't we often make casual jokes or sarcasm about certain (provocative) ideas when they simply need stimulation?

Just some thoughts.

You know, orangetruck, I still get the sense that Ennis might have guessed that Jack was fooling around with a man...  I go back and forth in this one.  But in saying "Tell you what...", jack could be trying to justify himself to Ennis.

This interpretation is probably far-fetched, and it might be that he took what Jack said at face value.  But I can' help recalling that Ennis did see though Jack's comments about Mexico.  I think Ennis was more astute about the (again) "coded" references that Jack gave him about his comings and goings.

 

[orangetruck]

You know, orangetruck, I still get the sense that Ennis might have guessed that Jack was fooling around with a man...  I go back and forth in this one.  But in saying "Tell you what...", jack could be trying to justify himself to Ennis.

This interpretation is probably far-fetched, and it might be that he took what Jack said at face value.  But I can' help recalling that Ennis did see though Jack's comments about Mexico.  I think Ennis was more astute about the (again) "coded" references that Jack gave him about his comings and goings.

 

I tend to agree. And I too think Ennis had suspected. I remember when Jack was in the middle of explaining this thing he had going on, and how for that split second before "..wife" Ennis' stare at Jack reminded me of Joe A's. And as soon as ".. wife" does drop, his eyes start snickering while he endears Jack. But for that instant he was struck by the resemblance -- the one that he associates with intense fear.

This is becoming one of my favorite scenes. The dark campfire atmosphere, the subdued, illuminating flow of water, the joint, the whiskey and (again) those flickering eyes. Ennis' flashbacks of the ditch are all he needs to be reminded of lightning and tire irons. Jack could have put them together but decided to wait until tomorrow to confront Ennis about no longer agreeing to misunderstand the love of his life. By tomorrow he'd be too close to sober to numb the pain of holding it in anyway, I figure. "November" really pulled the plug.

Wasn't it too, that Ennis simply needed to recognize mutual respect for their "secrecy"? He could rebound with this the night before LC. But in LC he cannot stand the same, as Jack turns in and goes for "Mexico".

I think I get the yo-yo's about these scenes too. They seem to reflect like a mirror to the other. There must be a striking pain when Ennis accuses Jack of Mexico. It's like white-out over the night prior; like Ennis not acknowledging their sparse time together; Ennis threatens to conduct electricity himself. This must have sparked the desolate truth that loneliness may eventually hit the mountain too, like snow in November.

Jack always knew how to spread his Brokeback Mountain love thin over all other areas of his life and not necessarily by choice. I think what ultimately knocked Jack down was the cold, black status: nothing, going no where.

[tpe]

I tend to agree. And I too think Ennis had suspected. I remember when Jack was in the middle of explaining this thing he had going on, and how for that split second before "..wife" Ennis' stare at Jack reminded me of Joe A's. And as soon as ".. wife" does drop, his eyes start snickering while he endears Jack. But for that instant he was struck by the resemblance -- the one that he associates with intense fear.

This is becoming one of my favorite scenes. The dark campfire atmosphere, the subdued, illuminating flow of water, the joint, the whiskey and (again) those flickering eyes. Ennis' flashbacks of the ditch are all he needs to be reminded of lightning and tire irons. Jack could have put them together but decided to wait until tomorrow to confront Ennis about no longer agreeing to misunderstand the love of his life. By tomorrow he'd be too close to sober to numb the pain of holding it in anyway, I figure. "November" really pulled the plug.

Wasn't it too, that Ennis simply needed to recognize mutual respect for their "secrecy"? He could rebound with this the night before LC. But in LC he cannot stand the same, as Jack turns in and goes for "Mexico".

I think I get the yo-yo's about these scenes too. They seem to reflect like a mirror to the other. There must be a striking pain when Ennis accuses Jack of Mexico. It's like white-out over the night prior; like Ennis not acknowledging their sparse time together; Ennis threatens to conduct electricity himself. This must have sparked the desolate truth that loneliness may eventually hit the mountain too, like snow in November.

Yes, I also find that night scene very atmospheric -- and deeply moving.  The fact that it ends with Jack's confession shows us how carefully planned the progression of this scene was, IMO.  In much of the scene, a lot is hidden in the gloaming, and the firelight casts shadows both literally and figuratively.  That it ends with this confession is like introducing a brief shaft of light penetrating the "darkness"  -- the darkness of surmises and second-guesses.

And yes, I agree about 'the mutual respect for their "secrecy"'.  That Ennis crossed the line when it came to Mexico justified (in Jack's mind) his bringing up the whole subject of their missed opportunity for a sweet life together.

Jack always knew how to spread his Brokeback Mountain love thin over all other areas of his life and not necessarily by choice. I think what ultimately knocked Jack down was the cold, black status: nothing, going no where.

Exactly.