Topic: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"

[tpe]

You know, Jake G. once said that Jack was so eager to make Ennis give in, but never succeeded completely. Had Jack succeeded, maybe Jack wouldn't find Ennis so attractive any more. I'm no saying that it is 100% truth, but it is just that if we see 2 little boxes -one open and one closed - we would always choose  the closed one. I assume you'd too! Because it is more interesting, more intriguing... That was the case with Ennis.

Of course that 20 years of unsuccessful attempts to make Ennis fears melt, to open Ennis' shell,  Jack became bitter!  Ennis turned up to be too stubborn and too closed even for Jack's enormous love. You're right there of course, but that was the final result.

During their relationship, Ennis' closed nature was surely attractive for Jack!  IMO

So you think it was partly the thrill of the chase?  Do you think it was the same thing that made Ennis "toy" around with Cassie?

But I think we are talking about two different things here, baby. One thing is Ennis closed nature, his shy, stoic self. Jack sure loved Ennis the way he was, and he sure fell in love with how different was Ennis from him. But Ennis not giving in and overcoming his fears is another thing. That hurt Jack, and I can't believe he could like that Ennis kept telling him not. Jack didn't like that not even once. Remember his face when he talked first about the sweet life and Ennis said not. How could Jack love that Ennis said not to what he needed the most? Jake said that Jack was eager, yes, but eager to have Ennis in his life, because he needed have a life with his cowboy and that's why he was eager and so ready to fight for it, you know. You said that "Had Jack succeeded, maybe Jack wouldn't find Ennis so attractive any more." But, baby, if that was true that'd mean that Jack was not in love with Ennis, that Ennis was only a challenge for him. I think that if Jack had succeeded he had been the happiest man ever, because that'd mean that he got the sweet life he so wanted, that Ennis gave in and they finally were gonna live together.

Good distinction.

[vedrana]

So you think it was partly the thrill of the chase?  Do you think it was the same thing that made Ennis "toy" around with Cassie?

Well, isn't there always a thrill of the chase? 

I believe that Ennis was interesting to Cassie and to Jack because IMO he was a loving and a good person. I see him as a man with a very good soul, even he wasn't very soft man. Never openly showing his feelings made him even more intriguing and more interesting. Surely, Jack (and Cassie) was hoping to get "to the bottom", but he didn't. And that made him little by little very bitter.

I think that Ennis' nature and his refusal to give in are 2 parts of the same package. In other words - can we imagine a person with Ennis' nature who just easily falls in love, just easily accept "sweet life" with man? No! That's just not Ennis! And getting into his heart, into his fears, into his emotions was extremely attractive for others as one expects that the deeper is hidden, the bigger treasure he'd find. Unfortunately, Ennis never gave in, cos his fears and obstacles were too much to concore. The bitterness came with time, during numerous years of Jack's fight with Ennis' ghosts of past!   :\'(

[tpe]

Well, isn't there always a thrill of the chase? 

I believe that Ennis was interesting to Cassie and to Jack because IMO he was a loving and a good person. I see him as a man with a very good soul, even he wasn't very soft man. Never openly showing his feelings made him even more intriguing and more interesting. Surely, Jack (and Cassie) was hoping to get "to the bottom", but he didn't. And that made him little by little very bitter.

I think that Ennis' nature and his refusal to give in are 2 parts of the same package. In other words - can we imagine a person with Ennis' nature who just easily falls in love, just easily accept "sweet life" with man? No! That's just not Ennis! And getting into his heart, into his fears, into his emotions was extremely attractive for others as one expects that the deeper is hidden, the bigger treasure he'd find. Unfortunately, Ennis never gave in, cos his fears and obstacles were too much to concore. The bitterness came with time, during numerous years of Jack's fight with Ennis' ghosts of past!   :\'(

Interesting.  Because personally, I thought that Ennis throughout felt a bit guilty for being with Cassie -- because I felt that he really did not love her.  I would not go so far as to say that "pity" motivated Ennis.  But perhaps he felt that he would lose nothing in entering a relationship where the other person was clearly crazy about him.  It certainly gave Ennis confidence and probably her atttentions flattered him a bit.  And it provided convenient cover...

[vedrana]

Interesting.  Because personally, I thought that Ennis throughout felt a bit guilty for being with Cassie -- because I felt that he really did not love her.  I would not go so far as to say that "pity" motivated Ennis.  But perhaps he felt that he would lose nothing in entering a relationship where the other person was clearly crazy about him.  It certainly gave Ennis confidence and probably her atttentions flattered him a bit.  And it provided convenient cover...

Oh! I believe that there's been a little misunderstanding here. 

What I wanted to say is that Ennis's nature and his behavior in the terms of his stoicism and not easily give in to others is one package.

Cassie was attracted to him, but I never wanted to imply that he loved Cassie. I even said once that he didn't mention her to Jack because he didn't think much of their relationship (and I remember that you said the same thing too).

Ennis' reason not giving in with Jack was one his childhood fear, and the reason not giving in with Cassie was - Jack!

I believe that I caused this misunderstanding cos I said - "Ennis was interesting to Cassie and to Jack" Maybe "for" instead of "to" would be better.

Hope now it's clear? Let me know please! 

[tpe]

Oh! I believe that there's been a little misunderstanding here. 

What I wanted to say is that Ennis's nature and his behavior in the terms of his stoicism and not easily give in to others is one package.

Cassie was attracted to him, but I never wanted to imply that he loved Cassie. I even said once that he didn't mention her to Jack because he didn't think much of their relationship (and I remember that you said the same thing too).

Ennis' reason not giving in with Jack was one his childhood fear, and the reason not giving in with Cassie was - Jack!

I believe that I caused this misunderstanding cos I said - "Ennis was interesting to Cassie and to Jack" Maybe "for" instead of "to" would be better.

Hope now it's clear? Let me know please! 

Yes it is.    But you also add an interesting point here: Ennis's stoicism.  To accept Cassie's attentions at face value is consistent with this.  Perhaps he took Cassie's love for him as inevitable, as much as he probably took the relationship to be something he didn't have to fight against...

[vedrana]

Yes it is.    But you also add an interesting point here: Ennis's stoicism.  To accept Cassie's attentions at face value is consistent with this.  Perhaps he took Cassie's love for him as inevitable, as much as he probably took the relationship to be something he didn't have to fight against...

Inevitable? You mean that Ennis believed to be irresistible?  

I am not sure if inevitable, but surely he took their relationship very casually, and finally broke her hear too, cos she was obviously deeply in love him!

[tpe]

Inevitable? You mean that Ennis believed to be irresistible?  

I am not sure if inevitable, but surely he took their relationship very casually, and finally broke her hear too, cos she was obviously deeply in love him!

I think I should have used the term "fated" rather than "inevitable."  Although I am sure that Ennis must have been aware that he may have been especially attractive to strong women who liked silent, stoic men. 

[vedrana]

I think I should have used the term "fated" rather than "inevitable."  Although I am sure that Ennis must have been aware that he may have been especially attractive to strong women who liked silent, stoic men. 

  My English!!! In it's glory! 

Yes, now I see what you meant. But my explanation was close to that too! 

Girls don't fall in love with fun, Ennis! But in stoicism! 

[tpe]

My English!!! In it's glory! 

Yes, now I see what you meant. But my explanation was close to that too! 

Girls don't fall in love with fun, Ennis! But in stoicism! 

No, it wasn't you, loreen.  The word "inevitable" wasn't specific enough, and I understand your confusion. 

[lauren]

I think Alma wanted Ennis to admit his affair with Jack when she posted that question. After all, she told him that she put a note in his fishing box right after that. Maybe she thought that she deserved an explanation seeing that they were married before and gave birth to two daughters. In some way, I think Alma blames Ennis for their marriage failure. In my opinion, they would have divorced even if Jack hadn't came back into Ennis's life. After all, they weren't exactly happy, they were just going through the motion. I felt that when Ennis made love to Alma, he was actually pretending that he was making love to Jack. He was quite rough and Alma didn't look very comfortable during the process...

[vedrana]

I think Alma wanted Ennis to admit his affair with Jack when she posted that question. After all, she told him that she put a note in his fishing box right after that. Maybe she thought that she deserved an explanation seeing that they were married before and gave birth to two daughters. In some way, I think Alma blames Ennis for their marriage failure. In my opinion, they would have divorced even if Jack hadn't came back into Ennis's life. After all, they weren't exactly happy, they were just going through the motion. I felt that when Ennis made love to Alma, he was actually pretending that he was making love to Jack. He was quite rough and Alma didn't look very comfortable during the process...

It's not Alma who asked this particular question - it was Jack during their last evening.

[tpe]

I think Alma wanted Ennis to admit his affair with Jack when she posted that question. After all, she told him that she put a note in his fishing box right after that. Maybe she thought that she deserved an explanation seeing that they were married before and gave birth to two daughters. In some way, I think Alma blames Ennis for their marriage failure. In my opinion, they would have divorced even if Jack hadn't came back into Ennis's life. After all, they weren't exactly happy, they were just going through the motion. I felt that when Ennis made love to Alma, he was actually pretending that he was making love to Jack. He was quite rough and Alma didn't look very comfortable during the process...

Which question were you referring to?  But I agree that Alma blamed Ennis for the failure of the marriage.

IN the light of the failed marriage, Jack asking the question may sound a bit perverse.  Did he want Ennis to go through the ordeal all over again.  But we know that the question was a matter of probing deeper into Ennis's psyche, especially in relation to the Sweet Life...

 

[lauren]

It's not Alma who asked this particular question - it was Jack during their last evening.

Sorry...got mixed up. Jack asking Ennis that question was kinda strange. How often does one partner ask another when he's getting married again. I think it's a sign that Jack has finally given up on their dream to have a sweet life together. He's probably worried that Ennis is so alone all the time just like Alma is worried about Ennis...

[myprivatejack]

Sorry...got mixed up. Jack asking Ennis that question was kinda strange. How often does one partner ask another when he's getting married again. I think it's a sign that Jack has finally given up on their dream to have a sweet life together. He's probably worried that Ennis is so alone all the time just like Alma is worried about Ennis...

I suppose that this-yes-"strange" Jack's question is both a proof of lack of hope and a proof of hope still in this sweet life together,I'll try to explain it:On one hand,he began to feel that Ennis never was going to make the step further to live with him-as a matter of fact,I think he began to become more gloomy in this aspect in the scene of the long driving-and knew that Ennis having another "more official and well seen" partner had meant the definitive goodbye to his hopes.
But on the other hand,I have always had the sensation that he worried for Ennis present and future,his probabilities of being marked as "queer" in a small comunity,prone to the gossips against a long term single man...In this way,he could also be sure that Ennis didn't have another partner than him,and maybe this made him feel better with a,even slight,light of hope in his eyes.JMO.

[vedrana]

Which question were you referring to?  But I agree that Alma blamed Ennis for the failure of the marriage.

IN the light of the failed marriage, Jack asking the question may sound a bit perverse.  Did he want Ennis to go through the ordeal all over again.  But we know that the question was a matter of probing deeper into Ennis's psyche, especially in relation to the Sweet Life...

This is the only reason I believe. Jack wanted to see where he's standing with Ennis. The best way was to ask an indirect question. The reply including Cassie was hurtful for him.

[vedrana]

I suppose that this-yes-"strange" Jack's question is both a proof of lack of hope and a proof of hope still in this sweet life together,I'll try to explain it:On one hand,he began to feel that Ennis never was going to make the step further to live with him-as a matter of fact,I think he began to become more gloomy in this aspect in the scene of the long driving-and knew that Ennis having another "more official and well seen" partner had meant the definitive goodbye to his hopes.
But on the other hand,I have always had the sensation that he worried for Ennis present and future,his probabilities of being marked as "queer" in a small comunity,prone to the gossips against a long term single man...In this way,he could also be sure that Ennis didn't have another partner than him,and maybe this made him feel better with a,even slight,light of hope in his eyes.JMO.

Somehow I believe that Jack knew that Ennis would never have any partner in so small community. he was afraid of being seen with Jack, not to mention have areal affair with anyone else.

[lauren]

Somehow I believe that Jack knew that Ennis would never have any partner in so small community. he was afraid of being seen with Jack, not to mention have areal affair with anyone else.

I agree. Cassie could just be Ennis' way of diverting other people's attention towards his love affair with Jack. In the end, he didn't even care when Cassie left him or was seeing another guy, his thoughts were too preoccupied with the fight he had with Jack during their last meeting...

[vedrana]

I agree. Cassie could just be Ennis' way of diverting other people's attention towards his love affair with Jack. In the end, he didn't even care when Cassie left him or was seeing another guy, his thoughts were too preoccupied with the fight he had with Jack during their last meeting...

Cassie was also after him for a long time. She really loved him and did everything she could to make him marry her and love her. She couldn't understand why he behaved the way he did. So, maybe she was the disguise for his love for Jack, but not so intentionally, cos she was the one who was maintaining their relationship and who was into it 100%. I had a feeling that Ennis was just a blind follower with her, without any wish or intention or deeper feeling.

[tpe]

This is the only reason I believe. Jack wanted to see where he's standing with Ennis. The best way was to ask an indirect question. The reply including Cassie was hurtful for him.

Exactly.  It was an indirect question that Jack thought wouldn't rattle Ennis -- and yet, Jack knew that it as a type of indirect question that Ennis would understand...

[vedrana]

Exactly.  It was an indirect question that Jack thought wouldn't rattle Ennis -- and yet, Jack knew that it as a type of indirect question that Ennis would understand...

Hm.. but do you think that Ennis got a hint there? Did he understand the meaning below the surface? I am not so sure. When Jack had his answer about Cassie, he also diverted the conversation into another direction.

[tpe]

Hm.. but do you think that Ennis got a hint there? Did he understand the meaning below the surface? I am not so sure. When Jack had his answer about Cassie, he also diverted the conversation into another direction.

Yes, I think he got the hint here.  That explains a great deal what was behind his counterquestion to Jack "And you?"   Tit for tat.

 

[vedrana]

Yes, I think he got the hint here.  That explains a great deal what was behind his counterquestion to Jack "And you?"   Tit for tat.

Hm.. what I think is that Ennis was slow, but not stupid at all! I think that he knew much more than he showed, but it was his fear and his stubbornness that ruled his behavior. 

[tpe]

Hm.. what I think is that Ennis was slow, but not stupid at all! I think that he knew much more than he showed, but it was his fear and his stubbornness that ruled his behavior. 

But I do think he caught what was underneath Jack's seemingly innocent question about marriage.  And perhaps a part of him didn't like it at all...  Still, he did his best to allay Jack's concerns, even as he countered the question with a similar question.

[myprivatejack]

But I do think he caught what was underneath Jack's seemingly innocent question about marriage.  And perhaps a part of him didn't like it at all...  Still, he did his best to allay Jack's concerns, even as he countered the question with a similar question.

But this is a very common reaction in Ennis isn't it? Like the one in the confrontation scene,when Jack says that he had once a"better idea" and Ennis counter attacks with his "Have you ever been to Mexico,Jack?".I think it's a very logical reaction in someone who can't and doesn't want to face embarrassing situations or questions or these ones that could mean a commitment.

[vedrana]

But I do think he caught what was underneath Jack's seemingly innocent question about marriage.  And perhaps a part of him didn't like it at all...  Still, he did his best to allay Jack's concerns, even as he countered the question with a similar question.

But this is a very common reaction in Ennis isn't it? Like the one in the confrontation scene,when Jack says that he had once a"better idea" and Ennis counter attacks with his "Have you ever been to Mexico,Jack?".I think it's a very logical reaction in someone who can't and doesn't want to face embarrassing situations or questions or these ones that could mean a commitment.

Yes, that's it! He figured it out, but as always he showed nothing on outside. And the example in FC is very good. He escaped the unpleasant questions and situations just slipping away to some other topics.

[tpe]

Yes, that's it! He figured it out, but as always he showed nothing on outside. And the example in FC is very good. He escaped the unpleasant questions and situations just slipping away to some other topics.

It's part of Ennis's stoicism.  That is why Ennis can be so enigmatic in scenes such as this.

[vedrana]

It's part of Ennis's stoicism.  That is why Ennis can be so enigmatic in scenes such as this.

That can be enigmatic, but also annoying, don't you think? Jack never got to make him listen and talk/solve problems...  ^^)

Anyway, I liked the look Ennis gave to Jack after Jack replied something about the foreman's wife - it was full of love and some hidden understanding for Jack! 

[myprivatejack]

That can be enigmatic, but also annoying, don't you think? Jack never got to make him listen and talk/solve problems...  ^^)

Anyway, I liked the look Ennis gave to Jack after Jack replied something about the foreman's wife - it was full of love and some hidden understanding for Jack! 

I love this look also,because it reveals all what Ennis felt for Jack,but not always was willing to show,and less still with words.This is one of the greatest contradictions in him; keep on "nurturing" love inside Jack,and also inside himself,but never giving this love an opportunity to develop itself in a full sense...

[tpe]

That can be enigmatic, but also annoying, don't you think? Jack never got to make him listen and talk/solve problems...  ^^)

Anyway, I liked the look Ennis gave to Jack after Jack replied something about the foreman's wife - it was full of love and some hidden understanding for Jack! 

I love this look also,because it reveals all what Ennis felt for Jack,but not always was willing to show,and less still with words.This is one of the greatest contradictions in him; keep on "nurturing" love inside Jack,and also inside himself,but never giving this love an opportunity to develop itself in a full sense...

So true.    Ennis was inarticulate in some ways and very expressive in others...

[atalley]

Also reminds me of the smile he gave when Jack asked "anything interesting up there in Heaven?"  And the smile when he told Jack that he "might run them sheep off if you don't quiet down".